Seva of GGS???

[Beast]

no

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

I don't get it though, because my nana ji and nani ji had a SGGS in their house a long time back, but because they served meat to their children, the Gurdhwara ppl took back the SGGS.... so i'm kinda confused now...

[Guest]

What i meant by baba nand singhji had pratak darshan of guroo nanak sahib nirankar means he had partak darshan from guroo granth sahib ji rumalie. When i go to work... i ll probably type brief encounter of that event.. all i can say it was sooooooooooo much brigtness brighter than thousands sun.. soooo much brightness when guroo nanak dev ji pragat from guroo granth sahib ji and baba nand singh ji couldnt see guroo nanak sahib ji.upon requested ..guroo ji decreases their light...........i know you ask for reference everytime .. here is the reference..look up Anand Darshan by hoozari raagi of baba nand singh maharaj. It comes in three volumes..

CJ,

I think it is a wrong to have sggs in household where have meat and drinkin goin on. Please before takin guroo maharaj home. We should clearly understand protocols of it. We should be really able to donate our time to do seeva of guroo maharaj as best way possible.

Also i would like to stress soo called old punjabi folks (our ancestors) in bc have puratan birs of guroo granth sahib ji in the shelf. This is kinda pratice that baba nand singh ji came and awake this kinda people. If guroo maharaj is our living guroo. It should be treated that way.. Guroo maharaj is our khasam.. puttin into shelfs is a major disrespect .. baba ji asked these people how would you feel if someone lock you in a self...

[Mr §ingh]

What i meant by baba nand singhji had pratak darshan of guroo nanak sahib nirankar means he had partak darshan from guroo granth sahib ji rumalie. When i go to work... i ll probably type brief encounter of that event.. all i can say it was sooooooooooo much brigtness brighter than thousands sun.. soooo much brightness when guroo nanak dev ji pragat from guroo granth sahib ji and baba nand singh ji couldnt see guroo nanak sahib ji.upon requested ..guroo ji decreases their light...........i know you ask for reference everytime .. here is the reference..look up Anand Darshan by hoozari raagi of baba nand singh maharaj. It comes in three volumes..

err so it was more like a dream, a vision?

as for reference

I never asked for reference, here :?

[Pheena]

You lack something Mr. Jamuka, whether you can see it or not, your cannot grasp the things that are appointed in the Rehat because you cannot see the logic in doing these things which are done towards a 'book'. See that is the difference you see the Guru Granth Sahib as a 'book' so you don't see why there has to be a king size bed, or food being prepared for a 'book'. Because you see it as a 'Book' so you treat it as a 'book'. The difference is that those Rehat are made to treat the Guru Granth Sahib to be more than just a book, it is a living Guru, because the word written on the pages are the Guru and when you read them they become Alive, you become alive because you are reading the words which are filled with Extacy of our Gurus. The Guru is being awakened through you, you become the flute, you become hollow so the guru can speak through you. That is why it is the Living Guru. It is those Words which give you guidence, show you the path of Love. You haven't grasped that devotion towards the guru yet, so you see the illogic in doing all of these things.

Only those who have loved know what they are doing, to you it might be strage to do these kind of things towards a 'book' but you cannot see the love and devotion towards the Guru, so you crete these sarcastic remarks about something you haven't yet grasped or understood.

And you are absolutely right there is no different between someone who is a mentally deranged person and soemoen who is in love. Their actions are similar. You cannot yet grasp it and how do i know, it shows in your posts. Have you ever loved soemone??? Love has no Logic in it....where logic is love cannot be, Love is spontaneous, without reason, it is simply an outpour of your inner beauty. You cannot bring logic in love and that is where you are missing. You cannot see that yet or else you wouldn't have said what you did.

I am not saying you are wrong, you are absolutly correct from a logical standpoint. Anyone using logic would use that same reasoning you are using, but Guru is not about Logic, its about love and if one wants to place the Guru on a King size bed, then it is his/her devotion, their prem, why are you getting all rowdy over it. You cannot see their love. If someone wants to cook for the Guru, and where do you think that Food being cooked for the Guru will be served at??????

Did you know i've heard that the True Golakh of Guru Nanak is in the Choalee of a poor man. Not in the Gurudwaras, but in the poor man, they say that if you must give, give to the poor for that is the Golakh of Guru Nanak.

Be filled with love and you will see the reasoning behind all these illogical rehats.

It is the Love of a Hindu man towards his God in a Temple, it is his devotion that allows him to see God in a Rock, it begins there, but it shall not end there. If the love of a man towards his god can see God in a Rock where do you think that will lead him, it will lead him to see that God in all and after seeing that do you think he will be able to hurt anyone, rob anyone or see any difference.

My apologies if i've assumed something towards you, im only taking thigns from your posts.

Waheguru

[Mr §ingh]

:bow:

Waheguru Waheguru :bow:

Awesome post Pheena jee :yo:

:bow:

[Guest]

No Mr Singh, It was not a dream or vision. It was for real.

Sant baba nand singh ji and along one more mahapursh never ate anything for weeks in Jungle. They have prepared food for guroo maharaj ji and only they would eat only when guroo nanak sahib nirankar come and give darshan. These fakirs of guroo nanak didnt eat anything for weeks and then sant baba nand singh start gettin weak and after that guroo maharaj gave him darshan from siri guroo granth sahib rumalie.

When guroo ji came, light was soo bright more than thousands sun. Upon requesting from baba ji, baba nand singh ji able to see guroo nanak sahib nirankar. Guroo ji, asked baba nand singh ji maharaj that what does he want for this priceless seeva.. Baba ji said humbly apnaie banna luoo .. Guroo maharaj ji said you are my ang. Baba nand singh ji bas tuu hii tuu i dont want people having even space of "neddle" for me bas tuu hiii tuu.. thats why gurdwara is called "Nanaksar" instead of "Nandsar"...

Read this site for more information:

http://www.babanandsinghsahib.org/main.htm

[Guest]

Great post Pheena Ji, thanks!

[Amrikingh]

Pheena Bhaji, well said mate! * tap onda back"

[Jamuka]

How pathetic, is sarcasm the only way you construct your argument?

How do you or would you know I'm being sarcastic?

Why do we do Bhog of Karah Parsaad if Guru Ji does not accept our offerings of food? Once again, your inadequacy in constructing a rational argument is clear after reading your sarcasm filled lines above.

I'm not against offerings of food but I am against over emphasisation of mindless rituals. Instead of spending hours in the kitchen preparing all kinds of foods/dishes for SGGS why don't we instead read the SGGS and try to understand it properly? Wasn't this the original purpose of our earlier living Gurus?

No, but if you have the means to do so, should you not do it anyway? Are you going to stop having baths and washing your hair just to prove your point when going to the Gurudwara, when you know out of respect of your Guru you should go to do Darshan after cleaning yourself? That is if you consider Guru Granth Sahib Ji as your Guru, doesn't seem so after reading the drivel you've just posted.

You are taking what I said out of context. Since you did not quite understand what I was trying to get at please allow me to explain. My point is this, who are making all these rules? Who amongst us are rule makers and who are followers? Do you honestly believe if we don't make such rules, Sikhs would start coming to temples attending to the SGGS unclean? Do you really believe Sikhs today are so stupid that they need such draconian rules to guide them?

Did you not READ my post, or were you just hoping to pick out things you could attack with your sarcastic remarks? God doesn't need us, and the Guru doesn't need our Sewa, we need to do the utmost, bearing in mind we have more technology and resources to do better Sewa, so WE achieve something. Compare it to the example of the piece of land which doesn't need anything, but to produce crops you must work hard at looking after it and cultivate it! Do you ever read other people's posts?

How are we to produce crops when we are spending most of our time in the kitchen preparing food for SGGS? Like I said before, I am not against preparing food for SGGS but I am against spending 90% of your time preparing food for SGGS. This behaviour constitutes ritualism which is against the very basic of Sikhism. The only difference this behaviour and Hindus revering a stone idol is that Sikhs like you have replaced the stone idol with our SGGS.

Who made the rules for you to wear clothes and not prance around naked? It's self respect, and the 'rules' you say WE made up are made to maintain the RESPECT of our Guru Ji.

Do you need rules to tell you to wear clothes? Is that why you're dressed? I'm assuming if there were no such rules you would parade yourself naked in public? You don't have a mind to THINK for yourself and and make a decision wheather such actions violate cultural norms? You need rules and laws in order for you to behave this way? Tell me, why do you not commit murder (assuming you're not a criminal)? Is it because it is against the law or is it because your conciense tells you it's wrong?

The Lingam is a stone. The Guru Granth Sahib contains the BANI of the Guru's, the word of God, that is the difference.

Yes true but tell me is the SGGS meant for reading and understanding Sikhism better or to treat it similar to how Hindus are treating the Lingam?

Do you read anything about Sikh History? Bhai Gurdas Ji's Varan were considered the 'KEY' to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji by our GURU. Is that not enough evidence for you? You have some serious reading to do mate. Well, the Punj Pyarey are not 'the Guru' in your definition, so should we disregard their Hukam at the Amrit Sanchaars?

When it comes to Sikhism I will only refer to what the Gurus have proclaimed. I will not listen to what some Baba said. Bhai Gurdas may have been a very respected figure in Sikh history but he is not a Guru. Do you understand? Why do we have to refer to what Bhai Gurdas said when we have had TEN Gurus to guide us? The very act of refering to Bhai Gurdas displaces the authority of of the Sikh Gurus.

You refer to Bhai Gurdas. Namadaris refer to their very own living Guru and Nihangs believe it's a ok to smoke Hashish. Who is telling the truth? To avoid confucion our Gurus have made it very clear, the SGGS is the final reference point when it comes to Sikhism. I am not advocating that what I say is true but this is what I have been made to believe.

Are 'Panj Pyare' Guru? Since when? This is news to me. Can you tell me where does it state Panj Pyare are Gurus? I await your reply.

Do you realise people do Langar Di Sewa almost 24 hours at Guru Ghars even today? Did you know Bhai Nand Lal Ji (Scholar) spent so many years washing dirty dishes in the Langar during Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time? Does it not befit your great character to do any Sewa Mr Jamuka?

Hello, when did I say I am against sewa? The act of sewa is beautiful and I will not hesitate for a moment to do it. But I think there is a difference between sewa in a langar hall that is feeding people from all walks of life as opposed to spending hours in a kitchen preparing endless meals for our SGGS. Don't you think so?

Baba Nand Lal Ji spent countless hours washing dirty dishes in the langar hall so that many Sikhs who were penniless (at the time) or without any means to feed themselves were able to do so. Also langar was an act that personified that all men regardless of caste are created equal. Khatris and Brahmins had to sit next to lower castes thus openly ridding themselves of social prejudices that existed at the time. Did Baba Nand Lal spend countless hours feeding Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Even if he did I bet he would have been reprimanded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Ever moderator judges whether a post is full of any intelligence or mere sarcasm and baseless attacks without sources.

By what means do you arrive to your conclusion? How do you decide a post is sarcastic or intelligent? From what can be seen, Harpreet was literally discouraged by you to ask anymore questions. From what I could decipher from the earlier post, whoever disagrees with you is immideatly judged by you as 'narrow minded' or 'sarcastic'. How are meaningful discussions and learning to take place when members are constantly being judged by the likes of you? This is the first forum I have encountered whereby moderators are also acting in the capacity of a judge. From my experience in other forums, moderators only role is to MODERATE and not DICTATE.

Depends on your definition of worship mate. You seem to think its only pouring milk over Lingams and empty rituals devoid of love. Worship can be many things, it can be bowing to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Do you not bow to your Guru? That is a form of worship. You can't challenge me when you do not even have the correct definition.

There is only one definition of worship and not a few as you would like to contend. You are confusing the meaning of the word WORSHIP with RESPECT. Pouring milk over a statue that represents a God to a member of this religion constitutes worship. The act of 'Metha dekna' to the SGGS in a Gurdwara constitutes an act of respect and NOT worship. This BTW is an age old Hindu custom.

You'll note that in an act of respect towards elders Hindus will bow down to their elders and the elders will touch their forheads and in so give their blessings. This act was practised even during the Gurus times so when desciples were to go to the local Gurdwara (Guru da Wara) they will immideatly ask for Gurus blessings by bowing their heads toward the Guru. This is why we 'methna dekhna' toward the SGGS to recieve Gurus blessings and also to as an act of respect

Does impartiality include allowing you to say whatever you want about Sikhs worshipping their Guru out of respect and allow you to consider Bhai Gurdas as just a 'Baba' without any say in Sikhism? I think not.

So if I don't share the same opinion as you do about Bhai Gurdas I am to be penalised? Is this how you make others be aware about Sikhism? Is this what Sikhism is all about? You are nothing but an intolerant fool who in the position of a moderator in a discussion forum, is misusing the authority vested to you by force fitting your beliefs on those who do not agree with you.

You're acting like a spoilt little child.

Really? How so? Just because I disagree with you makes me a 'spoilt child'? So far you've judged Harpreet to have a narrow mind and now I'm a spoilt child. Hmmmm....missy you have a serious attitude problem.

Well if you haven't got the guts to name the person and explain how it was not justified to lock that topic, then you are just as bad us really.

Everybody is bad except you?

Pheena wrote

You lack something Mr. Jamuka, whether you can see it or not, your cannot grasp the things that are appointed in the Rehat because you cannot see the logic in doing these things which are done towards a 'book'.

Wasn't it LOGIC that dictated Guru Nanak to question mindless rituals within Hinduism?

See that is the difference you see the Guru Granth Sahib as a 'book' so you don't see why there has to be a king size bed, or food being prepared for a 'book'.

Exactly where did I advocate the SGGS is only a book? My Nani had the SGGS in her house so I know a bit about how it is taken care off. My Nani learnt more about Sikhism via the SGGS and the Guru helped her to face the hardships of life. But my Nani did not spend hours preparing 8 to 9 meals for the SGGS nor did she split hairs to the type of 'rumalla' to be used. The SGGS is the Guru not because it was proclaimed so by our last Guru but because of the MESSAGE it contains.

You haven't grasped that devotion towards the guru yet, so you see the illogic in doing all of these things.

I'm sorry Pheena but you've got me all wrong. I have NEVER advocated in any of my posts that SGGS is a mere book. Show me where did I state this and I will recant what I have said.

BTW please don't dismiss logic so easily. If it were not for logic, you and me would probably be praying to a stone statue and the dark ages in the western(Europe) world would have never ended. It is only through logic we can see cruel acts committed by Muslims around the globe as barbaric. Muslims believe a Non Muslim is a Kafir and should be either converted or killed as instructed by their prophet and stated in the Quran. This is a religion/cult that lacks all forms of logic and it is because of this that is contributing to their irrational behaviour.

In my humble opinion it was through logic that Guru Nanak was able to see the irrational behaviour of Hindus in Hinduism. It was through logic Guru Nanak realised the act of throwing water toward the sun will not reach ones ancestors in the heavens. It was through logic Guru Nanak saw that the threading ceremony that he had to undergo whe he came of age was a mindless ritual. It is the very illogical nature of Hinduism which is the greatest contributing factor that is resulting in the suffering of millions of low caste Hindus in India. Low caste Hindus look upon High caste Hindus as demi Gods on Earth. Sikhs do not believe in such nonsense because Guru Nanak has freed our minds of such illogical behaviour. This is why the core belief in Sikhism is that all men/women are created equal.

Only those who have loved know what they are doing, to you it might be strage to do these kind of things towards a 'book' but you cannot see the love and devotion towards the Guru, so you crete these sarcastic remarks about something you haven't yet grasped or understood.

Oh yes, I AM in love. But I am in love with the one true God; Satnam Sri Waheguru. Only through love of God will one break their attachment toward worldly things. The SGGS is there for me to achieve this union with the one true God and can only be done so by understanding it and NOT by revering it.

You cannot yet grasp it and how do i know, it shows in your posts.

If it will satisfy your ego to judge me then be my guest.

why are you getting all rowdy over it.

It's amazing how you can single out my posts and deem it as rowdy and yet overlook the bullying tactics used by a moderator to force her belief on others.

Be filled with love and you will see the reasoning behind all these illogical rehats.

And how would you know I am not filled with love? How did you come to this conclusion?

It is the Love of a Hindu man towards his God in a Temple, it is his devotion that allows him to see God in a Rock, it begins there, but it shall not end there.

You highlight the rehat but you ignore the fundemental teachings of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind concerning idol worship. I am confused, are you a Hindu or a Sikh?

If the love of a man towards his god can see God in a Rock where do you think that will lead him, it will lead him to see that God in all and after seeing that do you think he will be able to hurt anyone, rob anyone or see any difference

If God can be seen in rock why didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji see it? Why did Guru Nanak after spending three days at the bank of Ravi proclaim "Na Me Hindu ta Na Me Mussalman" (I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim)? Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaim he was an idol breaker? If God can be seen through a rock, why do we even need Sikhism? Gur Nanak and Guru Gobind could have just tried to reform Hinduism (as claimed by Hindus) instead of starting something from scratch? Please note, Hindus today falsely believe the Gurus were Vishnu incarnates and were just reformers of the Hindu religion and do not recognize Sikhism as a separate and distinct religion.

My apologies if i've assumed something towards you, im only taking thigns from your posts

No, I appreciate your response. It is only through discourse one can excel.

By the same token I hope I have not offended you in any way.

'Peace Out'

Jamuka

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

On the point concerning "BHOG" please note that this tradition can also be found in the Rajputs and other Shakat/Tantric practices, where the Kirpan, Kard or Khanda are considered to be manifestations of the Devi in the form of Sarbloh (interestingly this also extends to uses Sarbloh Utensils...but anyway, we'll leave the bibek discussion for another thread).

Mention has been made in the past on the role of the Devi reference within Sikh parlance as the creative potency of Akal Purakh or at other times references to Maya (depending on context), so I won't spend too long on this note.

The point arising here, is that worship of weapons, both symbolically and directly is part of Khalsa Maryada (see ShasterNaamMala for example) and the role Shasters play in daily life and in the Gurdwara set up. Now there have been who suggested that this is Hindoo practice...

...that the ShasterNaamMala is not the writings of Guru Gobind Singh

...the respect/worship accorded to Shasters are Hindoo and not enshrined in sikhi

We are all familiar with these trends over the past 100 years, all largely stemming from Paranoia and misunderstanding of scriptural references, similarly what may appear to be resembling "Thakur Pooja" of idols, needs to be looked at carefully before writing this off as mere ritual...

As we regularly hear the Khalsa is forged with Miri and Piri, the Sant and Sipai, Shaster and Shaastr...

...just a few thoughts...please those familiar with the Nanaksar Maryada, do continue with your explanations...

[Morpheous]

Did you know i've heard that the True Golakh of Guru Nanak is in the Choalee of a poor man. Not in the Gurudwaras, but in the poor man, they say that if you must give, give to the poor for that is the Golakh of Guru Nanak.

:yo:

[Guest]

How do you or would you know I'm being sarcastic?

I know, because it's evident from your previous post, there is a more detailed explanation given in the Feedback/Complaints section as to why I feel you were being sarcastic.

I'm not against offerings of food but I am against over emphasisation of mindless rituals. Instead of spending hours in the kitchen preparing all kinds of foods/dishes for SGGS why don't we instead read the SGGS and try to understand it properly? Wasn't this the original purpose of our earlier living Gurus?

Its called Sewa Jamuka Ji. There are GurSikhs who cannot even read Gurmukhi, or they are illiterate and want to be close to Guru Ji, they do Sewa. Also, if you read Gurbani, it also tells you to do Sewa. When the Harimander Sahib was constructed, Sikhs did Sewa, when all the Langars were established Sikhs did Sewa. Not saying it's the only thing to do, but the ones who do it with devotion should be commended, not dismissed as being guilty of performing mindless rituals.

You are taking what I said out of context. Since you did not quite understand what I was trying to get at please allow me to explain. My point is this, who are making all these rules? Who amongst us are rule makers and who are followers? Do you honestly believe if we don't make such rules, Sikhs would start coming to temples attending to the SGGS unclean? Do you really believe Sikhs today are so stupid that they need such draconian rules to guide them?

I'm not saying Sikhs are stupid now, there's nothing wrong in learning from GurSikhs who are at a higher spiritual level than us, like Baba Nand Singh Ji. No harm in that at all. If we believe we know what to do without anyone telling us or guiding us, then it leads to strengthening of the ego.

How are we to produce crops when we are spending most of our time in the kitchen preparing food for SGGS? Like I said before, I am not against preparing food for SGGS but I am against spending 90% of your time preparing food for SGGS. This behaviour constitutes ritualism which is against the very basic of Sikhism. The only difference this behaviour and Hindus revering a stone idol is that Sikhs like you have replaced the stone idol with our SGGS.

I don't see anything wrong or ritualistic when someone wants to spend 90% of their time doing Langar di Sewa, in fact I would touch the feet of people who were so devoted to their Guru's Sewa, I'm nowhere near them. Ritualism can cover many things, some people say the Amrit ceremony is ritualistic, but without knowing the sentimental and real value of Amrit, how can that person realise it's significance? The crops example I used was not to be taken literally, just an analogy.

Do you need rules to tell you to wear clothes? Is that why you're dressed? I'm assuming if there were no such rules you would parade yourself naked in public? You don't have a mind to THINK for yourself and and make a decision wheather such actions violate cultural norms? You need rules and laws in order for you to behave this way? Tell me, why do you not commit murder (assuming you're not a criminal)? Is it because it is against the law or is it because your conciense tells you it's wrong?

I seriously don't know how to answer that. I know that the very first rules I learned were from the 'guidance' of my parents. I think it applies to anything in life, you learn from guidance.

Yes true but tell me is the SGGS meant for reading and understanding Sikhism better or to treat it similar to how Hindus are treating the Lingam?

Yes it's meant for reading and understanding Sikhi. In addition to this, it's to be respected, we are required to respect Guru Ji also. Hindu's perform the rituals without reading anything, or understanding anything from the Lingam idol, our Guru has been given that very title because it contains Bani, which are the words of God. That's the difference as to why we must do more than even what the Hindu's do in terms of Sewa.

When it comes to Sikhism I will only refer to what the Gurus have proclaimed. I will not listen to what some Baba said. Bhai Gurdas may have been a very respected figure in Sikh history but he is not a Guru. Do you understand? Why do we have to refer to what Bhai Gurdas said when we have had TEN Gurus to guide us? The very act of refering to Bhai Gurdas displaces the authority of of the Sikh Gurus.

Bhai Gurdas Ji doesn't contradict the Gurbani, if he did, why was his Bani called the KEY to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, can other more knowledgeable members clarify whether we should disregard Bhai Sahib's Bani please? Also, whether this was rejected during Guru Ji's times?

May I also remind you, that not ALL TEN (you're using caps in your post btw) Guru's Gurbani is in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and it contains Banis of Bhagats also, so do you select only the Guru's Bani? Will you reject the whole Bani because it wasn't ONLY the TEN Guru's who contributed?

You refer to Bhai Gurdas. Namadaris refer to their very own living Guru and Nihangs believe it's a ok to smoke Hashish. Who is telling the truth? To avoid confucion our Gurus have made it very clear, the SGGS is the final reference point when it comes to Sikhism. I am not advocating that what I say is true but this is what I have been made to believe.

Namdhari's differ in the sense that they have set up another rival to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Which I disagree with too, please refer to my above point on this comment also.

Are 'Panj Pyare' Guru? Since when? This is news to me. Can you tell me where does it state Panj Pyare are Gurus? I await your reply.

From what I have been made to believe, the 10th Nanak said if you want to do Darshan of myself in spiritual form, then that can be done from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in the physical form we do Darshan of Guru Ji in the Punj Pyare.

Hello, when did I say I am against sewa? The act of sewa is beautiful and I will not hesitate for a moment to do it. But I think there is a difference between sewa in a langar hall that is feeding people from all walks of life as opposed to spending hours in a kitchen preparing endless meals for our SGGS. Don't you think so?

Sewa is sewa. Whether it's of Guru Ji or the Sangat, it's the same really. I don't know a single Nanaksar where the Langar is not prepared because everyone spends 24 hours on Guru Ji's 'special dishes'.

Baba Nand Lal Ji spent countless hours washing dirty dishes in the langar hall so that many Sikhs who were penniless (at the time) or without any means to feed themselves were able to do so. Also langar was an act that personified that all men regardless of caste are created equal. Khatris and Brahmins had to sit next to lower castes thus openly ridding themselves of social prejudices that existed at the time. Did Baba Nand Lal spend countless hours feeding Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Even if he did I bet he would have been reprimanded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

I agree with you. This does not mean we stop respecting and doing Guru Ji's Sewa. Bhai Lehna Ji did Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Sewa for a long time, I don't think he was reprimanded.

By what means do you arrive to your conclusion? How do you decide a post is sarcastic or intelligent? From what can be seen, Harpreet was literally discouraged by you to ask anymore questions. From what I could decipher from the earlier post, whoever disagrees with you is immideatly judged by you as 'narrow minded' or 'sarcastic'. How are meaningful discussions and learning to take place when members are constantly being judged by the likes of you? This is the first forum I have encountered whereby moderators are also acting in the capacity of a judge. From my experience in other forums, moderators only role is to MODERATE and not DICTATE.

If I was dictating, you would be banned already. Im not discouraging Harpreet to ask questions, he can ask away. As for sarcasm, then we are both guilty of it, I won't say more on this, as it's futile and a waste of energy, and I'm sure you will agree.

There is only one definition of worship and not a few as you would like to contend. You are confusing the meaning of the word WORSHIP with RESPECT. Pouring milk over a statue that represents a God to a member of this religion constitutes worship. The act of 'Metha dekna' to the SGGS in a Gurdwara constitutes an act of respect and NOT worship. This BTW is an age old Hindu custom.

Not necessarily. Words do not define the respect and worship we have towards Guru Sahib. Muslims do Salaah (prostration in prayer) towards Allah, which they call worship. We prostrate in front of our Guru 'Dandaot bandan anak baar, sarab kala samrath'. So they would consider our form of 'respect' as worship.

So if I don't share the same opinion as you do about Bhai Gurdas I am to be penalised? Is this how you make others be aware about Sikhism? Is this what Sikhism is all about? You are nothing but an intolerant fool who in the position of a moderator in a discussion forum, is misusing the authority vested to you by force fitting your beliefs on those who do not agree with you.

I don't have an opinion of Bhai Gurdas Ji, the Guru's did, which I pointed out to you.

Really? How so? Just because I disagree with you makes me a 'spoilt child'? So far you've judged Harpreet to have a narrow mind and now I'm a spoilt child. Hmmmm....missy you have a serious attitude problem.

I apologise. I shouldn't have made that remark after you called me talibanistic.

Everybody is bad except you?

No. That's your assumption.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Bhenji, I think you're missing the point here...

I think it's wonderful if one could do such a sewa, but what i see Jamuka ji questioning is that, if one was to put so much effort into looking after the SGGS, couldn't one put more effort into looking after our society out there and helping the less fortunate out there, other than just staying at home to make sure the food was made at the rite time, or to make sure that it's warm enough for the SGGS....yes i think we must treat the SGGS with respect, but i think our actions in society would speak louder if we were doing good out there, than staying in our house...

Plus, we may do the sewa with respect and shradha, but our children will grow up seeing it as a ritualistic, and would do it just because their parents did it, and henceforth, that's how rituals are started.... I think that if one goes out in society and sees all the hunger and poverty out there and makes an effort to make it better, the child will see the good that is happening and see how it affects others...and will learn that this is what sewa is about....

Hence i feel Jamuka ji has a rite to question the sewa of SGGS, i'm not saying don't do it all, but that there must be reason and logic to it...and one must do more than just stay home to look after the SGGS 24/7

[Guest]

Canadian Jatti ji

You said.

I think it's wonderful if one could do such a sewa, but what i see Jamuka ji questioning is that, if one was to put so much effort into looking after the SGGS, couldn't one put more effort into looking after our society out there and helping the less fortunate out there, other than just staying at home to make sure the food was made at the rite time, or to make sure that it's warm enough for the SGGS

Your argument is spot on from a logical point of view, as pheena stated in earlier post. That Jamukha is right from a logical point of view that with that same very food it can fed to poor or homeless people. But in order to understand this pratice of preparing food we need to be in the state of a bhramgyani(sant/mahatma) which quite frequently none of us are.. so whats the point of arguing??

Sikhi is labor of love. If it doesnt make sense to the western world.. so be it. Thats their karma if they cant understand this concept of sharda and prem. For them, shaheeds who gave shaheediya even that doesnt make sense to them. One can argue about whats the point of leaving the whole family behind crying with kids and scarifice themselves for Dharma. But they dont know state of mind of a "premi". Premi state of mind is anoukhi from this world. Only things matter to them Love and Devotion towards akaal purkh.

Check out this scenario:

Whats the point giving food to poor people when giver is akaal purkha. Wouldnt be effective to merge with akaal purkha and become one and pray for these poor people by doing ardas.

Ardas has powers. Especially ardas done by sant/mahatama's which akaal purkha most listens to it. Some of sant/mahatama's we had... they did ardas for poor people out there. And thats a huge seeva (which they are indirectly feeding them). Because you are poor because you are choosed by akaal purkha according to our karmic influences. And only akaal purkh can change your karmic influences by listening prayers and devotion towards him.

You said:

and one must do more than just stay home to look after the SGGS 24/7

That is exactly our sant/mahatams did so we fools can learn from them. Seeva of shabad- guroo 24/7. They were at state where without naam, worshipping akaal purkh in sargun form they cant live.

Its like taking fish out of the water, where fish is dying painfully because fish is out of the water. Same is state of sant/mahatma who cant live without naam/worshipping akaal purkh.

I think thats the only reason we are here at this state of pitfall and they are in state of anand (hapiness). Perhaps, if we would have understood this concept we could have enhance our spirtual journey like our sant/mahatma's did.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

I have to disagree on this poing Neo Bhaji....

We are taught that the jyot of God lives in each of us, therefore when one does the sewa of others, he's doing the sewa of God...my mother is not literate in punjabi and hence cannot read the SGGS, however my mother does sewa of ppl from her heart whenever she gets the chance to do, and she's not one with God yet, but i know that everytime she does it with full prem, she's a step closer...

When there's someone in need, and one helps them out, the person inadvertantly blesses the one that helped them out, and that blessing is given through the person by the Almighty Waheguru..

I think the sewa of the sangat is a powerful vehicle that can bring one close to Waheguru...

Neo Bhaji, u din't mention anything about the ritualistic aspect.... cuz that is a very important part of the question....

We have to raise our children without the ritualistic approach, and children are very naive at young ages and would not be able to see the prem that one may have by serving SGGS, but they would be able to see the effect of helpin out one less fortunate....

[Guest]

Canadian Jatt ji.

We are taught that the jyot of God lives in each of us, therefore when one does the sewa of others, he's doing the sewa of God...my mother is not literate in punjabi and hence cannot read the SGGS, however my mother does sewa of ppl from her heart whenever she gets the chance to do, and she's not one with God yet, but i know that everytime she does it with full prem, she's a step closer...

Wouldnt you consider doing ardas for them part of seeva?? It might not be phsycial seva but its still seeva isnt it???.

As i mentioned, ardas done by sant/mahapursh is very very fruitful to others.

[Guest]

Also one more thing for sangat.

We have many mahapursh who did jhagat seeva as in feeding poor. For sikhs Bhagat pooran singh ji is same as Mother Teresa for christians.

Sant/mahapursh do whatever akaal purkh tells them to do...either do seeva as in parchaar, or feed poor or get shaheediya.

We at this state of mind cant judge them in any manner.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Neo Bhaji, did i eva say anythin against Sants/Mahapursh's....no...

But i said that i feel the sewa of human kind is more fruitful....

Ardas is good as well, but for it to be fruitful for others when one is at that state of level with Waheguru, where all is one....until then, one can do much ardas, but i don't know how much could one such as myself do it w a pure heart, even though i'd try really hard, i'm just not there...

and plus, if one teaches another a skill to live there life by, isn't that wonderful...

[Baba Manochal]

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa, pheena and neo, love your points!

To my other friend, please read Bhai Gurdas Ji's varan, and try and read up a little of how much respect he was given by Guru Ji himself and the various seva that bhai gurdas ji did during his life. Then perhaps you will realise that after Guru Ji, bhai gurdas ji is the place to look for guidance. Hence the entire 'key' concept.

Again Kaur Ji, good point to bring up the example of Guru Angad Dev Ji maharajh. Just take a look at the things that Guru Ji did for Guru Nanak Dev Ji! Most of these would seem illogical, an example being when guru ji asked for the body to be eaten, guru ji's sons refused but Bhai Lehna was prepared to complete the task without a seconds thought. You might say that this was Guru Ji's Hukum and therefore could and should not have been refused, well then look at the example of Guru Amardas Ji, who while fetching the water for Guru Angad Dev Ji's bath would walk backwards but wouldnt turn his back to his guru.

Then somebody may say that again that is an example of a guru...

another example is of bibi bhani (i believe) when Guru Amar Das Ji's bathing stool broke bibi ji put her foot under the broken leg and kept it steady despite bleeding heavily and being in great pain. She put herself out for the guru, logically it would have made sense for her to ask guru ji to get up and fetch another stool... why didnt she?

Im not a very good story teller, but history is full of sikhs who have done unimaginable seva for guru ji.

People gave up their whole lives, they left their homes to go and do guru ji's seva. Yes while staying with Guru Ji they would have done the seva of the sangat too, but as penji has said, the guru's and the sangat seva counts for the same. However, Guru Ji would not have been left without sevadar's would he?

My own understanding is that we strugle to understand Guru Ji as Guru Ji. If we understood that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the same jyot in the ten guru's and Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the jyot of the ten guru's....i.e. Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then would we argue over how much satkar to give Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

Would we gossip, swear talk on our mobile phones etc while Guru Nanak Dev Ji was sitting there? If not then why do we seem to do it now? (Myself included in all this by the way!)

The issue of heat and cold was brought to my attention recently elsewhere as well. At a gurdwara during the winter, the singhs doing Guru Ji's seva asked the other seva to bring a thicker rumalla as it was cold and this one was too thin. This guy (from the SGPC) stood there and goes, 'leh kithe tand lag chali he', 'whatever it isnt going to feel the cold is it'!!

Singhs felt that a few apologies to Guru Ji were in order.

Again that is Guru Nanak Dev Ji sitting there, but if we were to understand that, would we ever question whether or not we should provide warmer rumalle during winter?

This is our Guru, and your Guru should be treated with the HIGHEST respect possible. Guru ji is the one to guide us, so for the people who have so much love for their guru, these methods of satkar become first nature!!

Lets be honest, very few of us have any true satkar for Guru Ji, and in the same way very few of us have true understanding either.. do you see the connection?

Also Guru Nanak Dev Ji did see God in the stone, he saw it in everything.

There are many in this world who doubt the power of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, despite Guru Gobind Singh Ji placing Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the same throne as himself, and Guru Ji is Guru because Guru Gobind Singh Ji said so!!! Guru Nanak Dev Ji critisised the stones as they would be able to help the devotees when it came for them to die, he critisised them for placing their feet on the chests of their 'gods' and asked what type of gods are these which let you do that!

Anybody try putting their feet on Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Guru Ji would bless some singh or kaur with the seva of cutting that individuals head off!!

A story which was told at a Sikhi talk in London was repeated to me recently;

Some guy from Bihar set himself up in a village ner amritsar as a sadhu. He was some kind of bhaiya?

Anyway there was some family which believed that their six year old daughter was possessed. They went to this guy who gave them the following advice;

"To get rid of the evil spirit, you must give your daughter a bath, while she stands over Guru Granth Sahib Ji.".

!!!!! :evil: :evil:

So this family being just a little stupid, did just that, they stood the girl on top of Guru Ji and poured water over her and bather her.

The guy who had the family do this also did a number of other things of this nature.

There were some singhs in the local vicinity who came to hear of this, they tracked him down and cut him into little pieces and threw those bits into the nearest river. The police stood there and watched, and they actuallt congratulated the singhs and told them to carry on, since they (the police) were unable to touch him, they promised that they never saw a thing (wink wink).

Some may see that as extreme and fanatical, but there you go. True lovers volunteer to be used as target practice for their pyaara, the head of someone who disrespects your beloved is a small thing in comparison!!

[Baba Manochal]

When we talk of children, you need to remember that when they are young, most of what they do will be via copying their parents. They speak because you say words in certain ways. If you teach them to brush their teeth, they will do so because you have told them and because you do so yourself. They have no idea of the benifits of why they should do this! For many people bowing your head is a ritual as has prev been mentioned.

Its about explaining who Guru Ji is. If we were to act like we wanted to get rid of the 'ritual' or 'percieved ritual' things for the benifit of our kids... then there would be little left for us to do. I.e. reading gurbani, wearing kakar's, keeping rehat etc would all have to be stopped. Its up to us to teach our kids, not to stop our sikhi until they get to a certain age.

[Jamuka]

Canadian Jatti wrote

I think it's wonderful if one could do such a sewa, but what i see Jamuka ji questioning is that, if one was to put so much effort into looking after the SGGS, couldn't one put more effort into looking after our society out there and helping the less fortunate out there,

Where I live the Sikhs get together once a week and cook food. This food is then distributed in the local general hospital. You see hospital food sucks so the Sikhs here do sewa by distributing wholesome nutrienal food to patients. I am of the opinion that this is the sewa Guru envisioned us to do.

N30 wrote

Your argument is spot on from a logical point of view, as pheena stated in earlier post.

Can you point out one illogical act by the Sikh Gurus? Just one dude. Sikhism is about logic. It is the very nature of it being down to earth and logical that attrated me to this faith in the first place. Now I'm not saying Sikhism is the best faith out there but it is one of the best because it is devoid of mindless rituals and illogic rules. It is illogic to pray to a stone idol and believe that is God which is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaimed he was an idol breaker. It is illogic to believe God only exists in the Kaaba which is why Guru Nanak requested that one Imam to point his feet away from the Kaaba, to point his feet where God does not exists. It is illogic to believe that only Jesus is the son of God and the rest of humanity isn't which is why our Gurus proclaimed we are all children of God. It is illogic to believe Jesus died for our sins and we should all feel grateful. It is illogic to believe that evil which is hell bent in wiping you out can be subdued through peaceful means which is why Buddhists and Buddhism was wiped out in India and are currently being annihilated in Tibet. This is why Guru claimed that it is just to raise the sword when all other means of subduing evil has failed. This is why you see so many former Christians joining Sikhism because their teachings and the Bible does not make sense. I know so because I've joined many a Bible sessions with Bible thumpers out there. Sikhism IS logic. Sikhism is the most logical religion. I challenge you to show me ONE belief,prayer,act within Sikhism that is illogical.

Whats the point giving food to poor people when giver is akaal purkha.

I am reminded of this one story where by Mehtha Kallu gave some money to Guru Nanak and told him to go to town and conduct some some business with this money and try to double it. Instead Guru Nanak took the money and bought food for the poor. Needless to say Metha Kallu was mad as hell when Guru Nanak told him what he did. Isn't Sikhims about helping the needy?

Because you are poor because you are choosed by akaal purkha according to our karmic influences.

This is what Brahmin priests tell low caste Hindus inorder to delude them and exploit the poor. This is why India is in shambles. Yes it is true where and who we are todays is based on karma but does that stop us from helping others who are needy?

That is exactly our sant/mahatams did so we fools can learn from them. Seeva of shabad- guroo 24/7. They were at state where without naam, worshipping akaal purkh in sargun form they cant live.

Who is against Nam simran? We just questioned the validity of serving food 24/7 to the SGGS and other mindless rituals.

BTW didn't the Sikh Gurus claim to forget who they are and only remember Waheguru? This is why we are not allowed to have even pictures of any our Gurus. This was proclaimed by our Gurus themselves and I can understand why. They were on earth to spread the word of God and did not want others to pray to them. FYI most of the paintings we have of Sikh Gurus were much after the time of the Gurus. The Gurus forbade anybody to have pictures of them. Ask yourself, why did they make suc a request?

That is exactly our sant/mahatams did so we fools can learn from them. Seeva of shabad- guroo 24/7. They were at state where without naam, worshipping akaal purkh in sargun form they cant live.

Who is to say who is a fool and who isn't? I would say only God knows who is a fool and who isn't. None of the Sikh Gurus called anybody a fool. This is the level of humility they possesed despite being enlightened souls. This is why these self acclaimed Sants/Mahatmas are nothing and no one to me. It should be that way for all Sikhs.

Its like taking fish out of the water, where fish is dying painfully because fish is out of the water. Same is state of sant/mahatma who cant live without naam/worshipping akaal purkh.

Isn't Sikhism about the sould merging in unison with Satnam Sri Waheguru the one true God and not falling in love with the SGGS? I mean seriously, where does God fit into the picture here? Why fall in love with the SGGS when it is God allmighty that created the SGGS? Shoudn't we be falling in love with God and not the SGGS?

Canadian Jatti wrote

I think the sewa of the sangat is a powerful vehicle that can bring one close to Waheguru...

Yes thats why Guru Nanak after all his travels set up the Gurdwara (Guru da Wara) where all was welcomed and he emphasized sewa to the sangat and not to himself.

N30 wrote

Wouldnt you consider doing ardas for them part of seeva?? It might not be phsycial seva but its still seeva isnt it???.

Ardas is prayer and not sewa. The act of telling ardas in an 'akhand path' may constitute sewa but Ardas itself is prayer.

Baba Manochal wrote

To my other friend, please read Bhai Gurdas Ji's varan, and try and read up a little of how much respect he was given by Guru Ji himself and the various seva that bhai gurdas ji did during his life. Then perhaps you will realise that after Guru Ji, bhai gurdas ji is the place to look for guidance. Hence the entire 'key' concept.

Yes you are right, Bhai Gurdas is a very revered figure in Sikh history but he is not a Guru. Why should I refer to Bhai Gurdas when the SGGS is right there? Isn't the act of referring to Bhai Gurdas who is not a Guru undermining the very authority of the SGGS? BTW Bhai Gurdas was not the only one respected by the Sikhs Gurus. Bhai Madho Das a.k.a. Banda Singh Bahadhur was also very respected by Guru Gobind Singh Ji but yet even a great figure like him went off the true path. Why do Sikhs have to refer to any Bhai or Baba when the SGGS is right there? Desn't this behaviour constitute one who does not have confidence in the SGGS? If you ask me this is blasphemy.

Just take a look at the things that Guru Ji did for Guru Nanak Dev Ji! Most of these would seem illogical, an example being when guru ji asked for the body to be eaten, guru ji's sons refused but Bhai Lehna was prepared to complete the task without a seconds thought. You might say that this was Guru Ji's Hukum and therefore could and should not have been refused, well then look at the example of Guru Amardas Ji, who while fetching the water for Guru Angad Dev Ji's bath would walk backwards but wouldnt turn his back to his guru.

Exactly where is it stated in the SGGS that one has to make sure the type of 'rumalla' used is in accordance with the weather? Can you point this out? Guru Nanak requested Bhai Lehna....ok the key word here is requested. Where is it stated in the SGGS or any of our Gurus hukam that one has to feed the SGGS 24/7? I await your reply.

another example is of bibi bhani (i believe) when Guru Amar Das Ji's bathing stool broke bibi ji put her foot under the broken leg and kept it steady despite bleeding heavily and being in great pain. She put herself out for the guru, logically it would have made sense for her to ask guru ji to get up and fetch another stool... why didnt she?

You have gone off on a tangent now. Nobody here is denying seva to the Guru even sacrifice if need be but our questions is the validity of preparing food for SGGS 24/7,the type of 'rumalla' used...ec etc. BTW is Bibi Bhani a guru? Exactly where did Guru Amar Das request Sikhs to put their feet under his stool that broke? Comparing the living Gurus to the SGGS is like comparing apples to oranges. The SGGS is not on some stool taking a bath whereby the stool broke and where we are to put our feet under the stool.

My own understanding is that we strugle to understand Guru Ji as Guru Ji. If we understood that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the same jyot in the ten guru's and Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the jyot of the ten guru's....i.e. Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then would we argue over how much satkar to give Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji requested Sikhs not to pray and rever to him but to only God. This is a fact. This is why we're not supposed to have any pictures of Guru Nanak lest we forget the name and start revering the Guru instead. Is this by any chance happening now?

Also Guru Nanak Dev Ji did see God in the stone, he saw it in everything

I challenge you to prove to us all. Where is it stated in the SGGS Guru Nanak saw God in a stone????? I await your reply.

I have read contempary books about how God worship had to move from pagan worship to book form because the stone itself was revered above God after a time. You see there is nothing wrong with Pagan worship if you realise that the statue you pary to is only a symbol and nothing more. But after a time the followers started forgetting that and started literally revering the stone itself and that is how Pagan worship died out because it started becoming a faith of empty silly rituals. This is why Guru Nanak deplored any form of Pagan/stone worship.

Those of you who believe it's A OK to pray and revere to a stone is NOT a Sikh simple as that, no arguments. No matter how many times you 'amarshakh' and how long a 'pug' and 'dardi' you have, if in your heart you believe worshiping a stone is ok, then you are no more a Sikh. If most Sikhs believe it's ok then I suggest to the Sikhs stop claiming Sikhism a distinct and different religion from Hinduism. Then it must be true that Sikhism IS a sect of Hinduism and Hindu belief of all the Gurus are Vishnu incarnates must be true.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji critisised the stones as they would be able to help the devotees when it came for them to die, he critisised them for placing their feet on the chests of their 'gods' and asked what type of gods are these which let you do that!

What nonsense. Can you verify this story of yours? Can you provide a link or book to refer? What rubbish! Why then did Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaim he is an Idol Breaker??????? Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not see any good from statue worship which is why NO prayer/shashtra from the Vedas and Gita was included in the SGGS. In fact he leaned more towards Bhagats from Kabir and Sheikh Farid. Sikhs may have borrowed some concet like karma but thats it. The SGGS clearly states that Brahma,Shiva,Vishnu and Parbathi which BTW are prayed to in idol form ARE Gods creations. This means Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva and Parbathi are Gods creations and NOT God themselves. Idol worship of these figures is a big No No in Sikhism.

Go read a god history book on the Sikhs and you'll note after the British arrived (much later), the Sikhs or Sikhism was in disarray. Pseudo Sikhs acting more Hindu like changed the structure of the Golden temple to accomodate prayer to statue Gods. They were known as Pujari Granthis. These Pujaris even refused to serve parshad to low caste Sikhs.Why do you think the Singh Sabha movement was started? The Singh Sabha ousted these pseudo Sikhs from the Golden temple BECAUSE of idol worship in the Golden temple and many other Gurdwaras. Then the SGPC was formed.

Let me say this before I end my dialogue with everybody here. You are NOT a Sikh if you believe in idol worship. There is NO argument to this simple as that. What I can't understand is how some people can claim what this Baba said or that Bhai claimed but choose to ignore the very fundemental teachings of the Sikh Gurus. Even to this very day Sikhism is not recognised as a distinct religion in India. Arya Samajists contend Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism. If you believe idol worship is ok and approved in Sikhism, then I humbly request you to stop claiming yourself as a Sikh. You are a pseudo Sikh at the most and in actuallity a Hindu. I say this because many pseudo Sikhs who had one foot in the 'mandirs' and the other in a Sikh temples created havoc for the poor struggling Sikh community in India. Their struggle to identify themselves as a distinct and different religion has been hampered by these pseudo Sikhs. There was a time Arya Samajists when Arya Samajists wanted to be included in the running of Sikh temples. Can you beat that?? A Hindu wants to have a say in how a Sikh temple is run?

I would like to apologize in advance if I have offended anybody here.

[Guest]

The points raised by jamuka in the previous post i agree with, but there is a line between having sharda and prem towards gurbani and worshipping a stone, when sri guru arjan dev ji maharaj used to sleep on the floor and sri adi granth was placed on a manji sahib, would u consider that idol worship?

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Ok, my main point here is that, I do have utmost respect for the SGGS and believe that if one has the SGGS in their house, it should be kept with respect, meaning, make sure the room is clean, proper rumalle and all, but I don't agree that one should revolve their lives around the SGGS all the time, they should read it, understand it...and practice what it teaches...and I still believe that the sewa of the sangat is stronger than making food four times a day at home for the SGGS... why do i say this, because Guru Nanak Dev Ji told us that in every life that is living out there, there is God in that being, therefore if one has plants in their house, make sure the plants are being looked after properly, if one has pets, same should go there, or if you see an animal in need look after it...and if one sees a human being in need, look after that person, help them out...and do it with the prem for Waheguru, and i think that is more practical and your doing so much more in the world, and I believe that Waheguru does see this....

[Amrikingh]

Jamuka what you get out the SGGS is an explanation of the word the Guru, it teaches you something, so when someone respects ......it is not idol worship, you are respecting and loving something which teaches you how to live your life

with stones it teaches you nothing, what deos a stone hold? it deos not shower any of the teachings of been religious or how to lead a good life

but what you have to understand is god is present everywhere, so when you focus on any object it shows you see god in everything. No that you worship it or say that it is god