Raag-malla Debate once again on panthik level...

[SAadmin]

Takht Patna Sahib summons Vedanti

Seeks clarification on book ‘Mundavani’ (Raag-Malla)

Varinder walia

Tribune News Service

Amritsar, June 19

In an unprecedented move in Sikh history, the Jathedar of Akal Takht, Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Giani Gurdit Singh, member of the SGPC’s Dharm Parchar Committee, and another Sikh scholar Mohan Singh Guard have been summoned at Takht Patna Sahib on July 20. They have been asked to personally clarify their position regarding the recent book “Mundawni”, authored by Giani Gurdit Singh .

It is for the first time that the Jathedar of Akal Takht has been summoned by the Sikh clergy of another Takht . Though Jathedar Vedanti has taken a serious note of the step taken by ‘Panj Piyaras’ (five beloved ones) of Takht Patna Sahib and which could plunge the Panth into a deep crisis , he said he could personally visit Patna Sahib to give clarification on the book. Jathedar Vedanti said he had visited Takht Patna Sahib and Hazoor Sahib along with Giani Gurdit Singh, who studied the manuscripts of the holy Guru Granth Sahib in his presence.

Talking to TNS, Jathedar Vedanti said he was shocked to learn about the move to summon him at Takht Patna Sahib, which had no precedent in Sikh history . He said Giani Gurdit Singh had simply documented the facts about “Raag Mala” and had not given any personal opinion on this issue. Similar views had already been given by the SGPC a long time ago. He said the Sikh clergy of Patna had no locus standi to take up such issues as it was the prerogative of Akal Takht only. The jurisdiction of Akal Takht and other Takhts had already been decided at the meeting of Sikh high priests, which was attended by Jathedar Iqbal Singh and Giani Rattan Singh , Jathedar and Deputy Jathedar of Takht Patna Sahib and Hazoor Sahib, respectively. While Akal Takht was declared supreme by all five jathedars, the other four Takhts were allowed to handle local issues

Giani Iqbal Singh, Jathedar Patna Sahib, in a written directive, said the above decision was taken by the Sikh clergy at an emergency meeting held at Patna Sahib today.

Meanwhile, Giani Gurdit Singh said the photographs in question are those taken by a local photographer from Patna Sahib in the presence of the author and others, including Granthi Iqbal Singh of Takht Sri Patna Sahib. “Itihaas Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Mundavani” is based on more than 50 years of research, and is the second in the series. The first, Itihaas Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Bhagat Bani Bhag was published in 1990 and is running in the second edition now. Both are research books and have been reportedly well received by scholars.

Mundavani is profusely documented which photographs of manuscripts of Guru Granth Sahib that conclude at Mundavani. Bhai Mani Singh in his book, “Sikhan de Bhagat Maala,” has said that Mundavani is the seal that signifies conclusion. The book discusses Mundavani and examines various issues related to it. It is meant to increase the understanding of the Sikhs, and not cause and divisions, it was mentioned.

Please Discuss

[SAadmin]

Also i heard on tapoban forum....khalistani veer ji mentioning:

there are many books written by sant gurbachan singh je and other bhindranwale sants that can go head to head with these books

very curious what are the name of books...i myself searchin for books /literature by siriman 108 sachkhand vasi sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale ....but no luck

[HeyDudesWassup]

Another viewpoint:

From the book "Divine Mystic Reflections on Gurmat" by Sant Naranjan Singh Ji:

Q: Please say something about Raag Mala's place in Gurbani.

A: Sant Ji: Raag Mala is part of Gurbani. the original Kartarpur beed or Granth written by Guru Arjan Dev Ji and the other at the Dam Dama Sahib written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji both have Raag Mala in them. I have seen both volumes. The ink used and the writing of Raag Malaand the rest of the Gurbani is the same. My faith is that Raag Mala is authentic Bani and should be honored and given due respect as Bani.

[Guest]

It is very simple. Gurdit Singh has given photographs of manuscripts of some 'Beerhs' of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. According to him, 'Bhog' of the 'Beerhs' is on 'Mundaavani'. On the other hand, there are 34 old 'saroop' of Guru Granth Sahib in Takht Sri Harmandir Sahib, Patna Sahib. All the 'Beerhs' have the Raagmala.

Gurdit Singh was accompanied by Giani Joginder Singh Vedaanti when he had 'Darshan' of those 'Beerhs'. He claimed that some of Beerhs, in which 'Bhog' is on 'Mundaavani', are there in Takht Patna Sahib.

Now, The 'Panj Piyare' of Takht Sri Harmandir Sahib, Patna Sahib has asked the author to tell which 'Beerhs' have the 'Bhog' on Mundaavani. It is simple, very simple. Gurdit Singh and Giani Joginder Singh should go to Patna Sahib, and tell the 'Panth' where are those 'Beerhs'. :wink:

The fact is that all the 34 'Beerhs' kept in Takht Sri Harmandir Sahib, Patna Sahib have the Ragmala. If Gurdit Singh has lied, he should be given hard punishment.

And yes, Giani Joginder Singh has not been summoned as 'Jathedar' of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. His photographs have been given in Gurdit Singh's book. Giani Joginder Singh should appear before the Takht Patna Sahib as a Sikh, not as a Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. He was not the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, when those photographs were taken.

It will be good, if Giani Joginder Singh resigns from the post of Jathedar Sri Akal Takht Sahib. He has already been critcised for his role in other matters.

[kamalroop singh]

Vahiguroojikakhalsa

Vahiguroojikefateh!!

Rag Mala is in all three editions of Guru Granth Sahib. The Kirtarpuri Adi Granth Sahib , the Bhanno Granth Sahib, and the Dam Dami Guru Granth Sahib finalised by Guru Gobind Singh.

The Saroops of Maharaj without Rag Mala in are few and far between, mostly in Patiala. This incidently is where the Raag Mala debate started from.

The Guru Granth Sahibs written by Baba Deep Singh Ji all have Raag Mala in them. Some of these copies of Guru Granth Sahib Ji are at the Takhts. The head of Hazoor Sahib, in an interview with him, which was recorded by Das in 2000 states this fact. The Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth Sahib scribed by Bhai Mani Singh also has Raag Mala as the Bhog , this is with Mrs Sethi of Hanuman Road, near Bangla Sahib.

A Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib from Maharaj Ranjit Singhs own scribes, is in the National Museum Delhi, has Raag Mala as the bhog. There is also one very important Guru Granth Sahib which has the stamp of Dam Dama Sahib on it. This stamp has existed historically for sometime. This Maharaj Saroop is in the U.K as well as other copies of this particular Saroop.

The picture attached is from the Guru Granth Sahib from the National Museum. ( I wonder if this was included in this so-called 50 years of research).

(This post was re-edited taking into account the very true comment by Shinda Ji, I humbly apologise for not referring to Maharaj in the respectful terms one should use, many apologises to the Sangat)

[SAadmin]

Its been beleived by lot of taksali singhs that Bhai Randhir Singh at his close days of his kaal did beleived in Raag Malla!

And off course many AKJ wont beleif in that notion unless some sort of written or audio conversation proof is provided.

I guess thats the way it is then. !!!

Those who disown bani will pay from their prices in due time in dargah when they have to face 5th jot of Guroo nanak Dev Nirankar!

[Guest]

Please check this page also: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3833

Another important file in Punjabi: http://www.sikhawareness.com/files/Kartaar...erh%20Baare.pdf

I have had 'Darshan' of a 'Beerh' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in Burhaanpur. It has the signature of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Sri Raagmaala is there in this holy 'Beerh'.

In Gurdwara (Bunga) Bhai Daya Singh Ji Bhai Dharam Singh Ji, near the Takht Sachkhand Sri Hazoor Sahib, I did 'Paathh' from an old hand-written 'Beerh'. I cannot say when this 'Beerh' was written, but Raagmala was there in this 'Beerh'.

[shindasingh]

Really off topic, maybe even un-appropritate to this thread..

Just a benti to Sangat to address as Saroops instead of Bir.

[kamalroop singh]

Vahiguroo Ji Ka Khalsa

Vahiguroo Ji Ke Fateh!

Dear friends,

the attached photograph is of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, gave to Pir Buddha Shah Ji to do seva of, after his sons were Shaheed. In this Guru Granth Sahib Saroop the beautiful bani of Raag Mala is present as the Bhog.

Kamalroop Singh

[Jassa]

This has been argued so many times...

People will not change opinion so i think we stick to the akal takht hukam...those that read it read it those that dont will have to give lekha if it is gurbani.

The funny thing i always find is...the people who argue most vehemently on this topic are the ones who havnt even read the first ang of Guru Ji.

[SAadmin]

The funny thing i always find is...the people who argue most vehemently on this topic are the ones who havnt even read the first ang of Guru Ji

And how do u know that??

Are you supposed to be some sort of antarzami???

Whats wrong showing research pappers of ragmalla to prove its bani... lot better than people who use their own mat to under-estimate gurbani strenght and chop guroo maharaj ang.... its our duty to put mis-guided people into right path.. thats what we are doing...

Gurbani.. doesnt matter which ever panna is mata and guroo roop... you can feel anand doing japji sahib.. same anand you can feel doing sukhmani sahib or ragmalla.. i know i feel anand when they recite ragmalla in nanaksar gurdwara every pooranmashi ... just can feeel presence of guroo nanak dev nirankar in its 5th form and pitty those who put their mat first and consider ragmalla as kachi bani and reject it all together.. if it was up to them they would have taken bhagat da bani out and change the mandals....actually they already attempted too but being un-successfull.... :roll:

[kamalroop singh]

Vahiguroojikakhalsa

Vahiguroojikefateh

Jassa Ji please tell us what the Akal Takht hukam was?

Just to make it easier for you, there were two, both contradict each other. The first one was that Rag Mala should not be removed and it is Gurbani,

See Raag Mala Gurbani Hai, by Dam Dami Taksal. It also has the excommunication of Teja Singh Bhasaur, the head of Panch Khand. He was the Panj Piara of AKJ Bhai Randhir Singh. It also ordered all his (Bhasaurs) books to be returned to the Akal Takht. The Jatha still follows largely a Rahit based on what he wrote. Even the SGPC has changed Chaupai Sahib in light of what he said.

For your knowledge the first ang of Maharaj is Jap Ji sahib, I think must of us do read that bani regular, hopefully that now fulfills your criteria for us to debate and research this topic.

Also I have never seen any threads that provide graphic evidence from historical sources with photography. If you dont like this topic then dont read it.

Vahiguroojikakhalsa

Vahiguroojikefateh!!!!!

[Kam1825]

this debate will forever be on going.

the only reason why this arguement started was due to Teja singh Bhasaur who was a puppet of the british brought foreward to split the sikhs.

will put on raag mala katha by Baba Sukhchen Singh Ji soon which was done in Leicester some time ago. Also Raag mala Katha by Baba Jagjit Singh Ji harkhowalae and Baba Hari Singh Ji Rhandawa Walae.

Those who do not believe Raag mala should not pay their respects to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it only makes them hypocrites paying respect to something they believe is false.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

kam1825, please let us know where you will put on this Katha.

Thanks.

[guv]

kamalroop singh... do u have any dates for the saroops u have provided pictures of?

i'm assuming the second one must be from the early 1700's.

[sukhsingh]

Also i heard on tapoban forum....khalistani veer ji mentioning:

very curious what are the name of books...i myself searchin for books /literature by siriman 108 sachkhand vasi sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale ....but no luck

veerji, get the book, "Raagmala Gurbani Hai". its by the taksaal.

[Jassa]

n3o why the rude and condascending tone?i never showed you that disrespect and so would appreciate it back...for someone who preaches to everyone else i would expect you to speak in a polite tone.

and n3o stop lying...how did the AKJ want to take out bhagtan di bani..Teja Singh Bhasauria did and was subsequently excommunicated...this had nothing to do with AKJ...Im not even an AKJ and i knw this...that is a blatant lie.

and why all the links with teja singh bhasauria and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh. Its a common known fact that when Teja Singh commited these acts Bhai Randhir Singh never spoke to him again.

This argument has been going on forever with scholars so to blame it on Teja Singh would also be a lie.

This topic will not convince anyone to start reading raagmala....

Both sides believe they are upholding the sanctity of Guru Maharaj...They will have to give lekha...

and please stop doing the nindiya of AKJ..so n3o if you have something to say then provide evidence not lies.

[Guest Javanmard]

Rabdhir SIngh might not have spoken to him again but he did NOT refute Bhasauria's ideology. Even nowadays Teja Bhasauria is still consodered a "chardi kala Singh" in AKJ literature. The links are obvious no reason to deny them!

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear All,

Please elaborate fully as to what in your views makes Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh reject in FULL the ideology of Teja Singh Bhasauria or what made him still keep in touch with it.

Simply referring to the 'no longer speaking with him' or 'not believing in Raagmala' is not going to be enough to qualify this, as these are arguments which have been used time and time again with no resolve.

Please expand, wherever your views may lie on this matter, however please support them accordingly.

Thanking you.

[Guest]

Just a benti to Sangat to address as Saroops instead of Bir.

Why should the word 'Beerh' not be used?

[sukhsingh]

jassa is 100% right. n3o u must take it e z on the akj jeez.

even though for u it might be hard to believe, but they have a lot of sharda for Guruji Maharaj

[Guest Javanmard]

Sharda gets annihilated by ignorance! You may be fully devoted to go to a particular place but if you don't have the proper map your devotion coupled with your ignorance will lead you to get lost!!!

[Jassa]

what about Bhagat Dhanna Jatt....his devotion overtook his ignorance about the futility of idol worship..

shaka nyorai you have a serious lack of knowledge on this...he was not respected by AKJ...so quit the misleading attitude. Give the sangat proof of AKJ respect for him. The rehit is not the same. Show me whee Teja Singh outlined his rehit.

sharda is most certainly annihalated by nindiya which is all you seem to be doing.

[Guest Javanmard]

The Ragmala article on tapoban.org metions Teja Bhasauria as a leading authority on Ragmala!

Regarding Bhagat Dhanna his case has more to do with the futility of brahmin superiority rather than murti worship as such meaning that brahmins do not have the monopoly over worship. Bhagat Dhanna's case has hence nothing to do with devotion overcoming ignorance: an excuse for many so-called "Gursikhs" out there to remain ignorant all their lives instead of following the examples of people like Baba Deep SIngh who was an intellectual, a Nirmala and a Nihang at the same time and who translated Adi Guru Granth Sahib into several languages and whose gutka conmtains Ugardanti and full Chaupai Sahib and whose copy of Adi Guru Granth Sahib contains RAGMALA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear All,

I have sought to look at the referenced article on Tapoban which can be found below and note the following:-

http://www.tapoban.org/Ragmala.pdf

Quote referenced:-

“Modern Sikh scholars considered it anathema, while others looked upon Ragmala as something sacred without giving any reasonable argument...

...the modern scholars were: Kavi Santokh Singh; Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha; Prof.

Piyara Singh Padam; Bhai Ashok Singh – a research scholar, SGPC, Amritsar; S.

Kartar Singh Dakha; Bhai Randhir Singh Narangwal; Babu Teja Singh Bhasaur;

Giani Gurdit Singh; and Kavi Raj Giani Arjan Singh (see Annex 1).”

[page 9, Ragmala: a re-appraisal in context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Madan Singh]

I will reiterate my earlier point, that the thread concerning the preservation of Sikh heritage, this is a matter of importance to all Sikhs. For this reason, to avoid this turning unnecessarily into a battle of AKJ-vs-Taksali-vs-SGPC-Nihangs-whatever else you maybe, it is requested firmly that supporting references be provided where possible for any view expressed hereafter.

This is a topic that has been discussed numerous times before and to avoid the same arguments being regurgitated again and again, we ask everyone to please present their views with supporting logic and reference, by all means use existing arguments to support your own, but please keep personal attacks, personality slanders and emotional comments away –we all know it ultimately will effect one’s lekha, but we are not discussing the consequences, but rather the Raagmala itself.

As per the above reference, the following extrapolations are noted to aid future discussions emanated from this article:-

The reference maybe, dependent on your view be considered a passing comment, or suspect on the grounds that Madan Singh has systematically discredited Sikh historians and scholars of old as Brahmanical and 'sikh only in name', however he is not the first to have done this, so please use this point accordingly, should you wish to discuss this aspect.

One could argue that this is the view solely of the Author, however others will point to numerous endorsements he has received in the introductory pages and acknowledgements and its hosting by the Tapoban site. Again, please bear this in mind should you wish to expand on this aspect.

Please continue to provide your thoughts and arguments.

Thanking you all.