losing my gurdwara

[sexy_singh]

SGPC have surely made mistakes, as does anyone...but they are with good intentions.

what are the good intentions behind limiting the participation of certain members of sangat here? my friend once corrected me after we attended a kirtan program held in a school hall when i said "that wasnt a gurdwara, was it?" to which he replied "anytime you have guruji and sangat together that is a gurdwara". i thought that was a good way of seing things. free of any uncecessary clutter and elegant in its simplicity. i dot know anythink about Budda Dal so you cant accuse me of political motivation.

[Jassa]

i think any sikh in the world would agree that wherever there is Guru Ji and sangat...that is a gurdwara..

there is nothing else required.

Oh and Langar of course....There were gurdwareh before the SGPC and there will alwaya be gurdwareh.

The non keshdari sangat can do other jobs within the gurdwara...certain things however are unavailable to them until they follow Guru Ji's hukam.

This is not only my belief but of the majority of the Sikh Panth, who follow the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib.

[sexy_singh]

you still havent offered any reasons apart from following authority. i'll accept if you say that you have none.

i think any sikh in the world would agree that wherever there is Guru Ji and sangat...that is a gurdwara..

there is nothing else required.

ok, so if we are agreeing on this and we agree that its a sensible thing to agree on then how are we supposed to feel about accepting commands from a body which are divisive. why is it ok to allow them to dicate on how a gurdwara should be, when its clear their ways arent even humanitarian. arent we supposed to welcome any kinds of sangat. now you are going on to say that all sangat isnt equal, some is more equal than others.

i also reject the argument that just because something is common that it is right. surely there are many examples on why this is so. just look at the historic examples of non conformance by the early sikhs. i feel that sikhi has become a religion in the way that makes religions have similar problems. and thus we must look at how our gurus went about describing and suggesting fixes for obvious errors. especially when it comes to exclusiveness and intolerance.

[Jassa]

There is a quote from Guru Gobind Singh...sorry i dont have access to it at the moment but will do when i have more time....it says that without his/her hair kept and shastar a sikh should not come into Guru Ji's presence. I do not have the exact quote as I need to find it...However i will find this...in the meantime could someone more learned please provide the quote.

now you are going on to say that all sangat isnt equal, some is more equal than others.

please dont attempt to put words into my mouth nor guess what i am to say.you have no idea.

how are their ways non-humanitarian...by which standards?western standards??

how would anyone but a sikh know about the maryada of a gurdwara.

dhaarrhaa mushh sir kaes banaaee || hai eih dhrirrh jih prabhoo razaaee || maett razaaee j sees mu(n)ddaavai || kahu thae jag kaisae har paavai ||80||

The hair moustache and beard are created within God's order. How can those who violate their natural form by cutting their hair ever be accepted by the Lord?.

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

Also Guru Gobind Singh Ji says

Nishan-e-Sikhi ast in Panj har kaf

Hargiz na bashad azin panj muaf

Kara, Karad, Kacha, Kanga bi dan,

Bina kesh kes hech ast jumla nishan.

[These five letters of K are emblems of Sikhism.

These five are most incumbent, Steel Bangle,

big knife, shorts and a comb; without

unshorn hair the other four are of no

significance]

Guru Ji says "Rehit bina nahi sikh kehaavai"

or "Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee"

If this is what Guru Ji says, then why should the people who do not follow Guru Ji's rehit, and therefore are not his beloved be allowed to do his sewa.

What this comes down to is....what is your definition of a sikh??

By the above definitions i can only conclude that a sikh is one who has taken his Guru's amrit.

The SGPC have declared a sikh is

Any human being who faithfully believes in

i. One Immortal Being,

ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,

iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,

iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

for those that are going to use this to argue i also suggest you read the rest of the rehit maryada where it talks about the hair not to be caught...

Even still the bani of our Guru's is higher and they have placed such a high importance on kes.

In the light of all this i think that a person who has committed a bujjhar kurrehit i.e. cutting hair should not be allowed to read from Guru Maharaj in a gurdwara. What one wishes to do outside the gurdwara in their own homes can not be enforced.

why is it ok to allow them to dicate on how a gurdwara should be

They are allowed to dictate as all Panthic Jathebandies signed in agreement to their rehit, and which the Panth gave control of Gurdwareh to. The Akal Takht have the say on any matter in sikhi and can not be ignored.Fact is, whether it suits your personal brand of sikhi or not..what they say goes.

[sexy_singh]

now you are going on to say that all sangat isnt equal, some is more equal than others.

yes i wrote this. no jassa, read more closely.you made the distinction between between keshdari and non-keshdari sangat. that was in your comment.

whether or not guru gobind singh ji made that comment, im sure it came with a context. and without knowing it or the exact comment i wont comment further. it could be quite specific in scope.

how are their ways non-humanitarian...by which standards?western standards??

by human standards jassa. stopping ppl from doing seva because of how they look is non humanitarian. its in every way discriminatory. its treating sangat differently. its lacking compassion. completly devoid of any sense of humanity. i hope you are never the victim of this sort of prejudice. especially by so called religious ppl who according to them, are supposed to be above such practises.

If this is what Guru Ji says, then why should the people who do not follow Guru Ji's rehit, and therefore are not his beloved be allowed to do his sewa.

no this isnt what guruji "says". guruji doesnt say run gurdwaras to privillege self proclaimed and self serving sikhs. and dont deny it either. your chain of implications suggests exactly what i write here.

you want my definition of a sikh? my definition of a sikh doesnt exist. i have a guru and im his discipile. nothing else means much to me when it comes to defining a sikh.

the sgpc definition allows you to go about ranking ppl in a sangat which is nice for those whos purpose it serves. i doubt you know anything about empathy to see this far though. try wearing others shoes sometime. i conform to your sgpc definition but we differ fundamentally in our religous outlook. i dont want to think im better than anyone else in a sangat. after all why should i be arrogant about things i've learnt thru my life. a sangat is a sangat, despite its composition. anyone can learn from the guru. it doesnt matter how they look. and serving a guru? anyone can do that too. no monopolies please.

In the light of all this i think that a person who has committed a bujjhar kurrehit i.e. cutting hair should not be allowed to read from Guru Maharaj in a gurdwara. What one wishes to do outside the gurdwara in their own homes can not be enforced.

ok. so lets see what this says about people who were born into a religion and taught nothing about it. i'd say thats a good proportion of sikhs. then what of people who've been sikhs according to ways that would please you, but are devoid of any spiritualism and lack of application of truths given by the guru. with that last catagory i've probably covered the majority of sikhs that exist.

you would wish to hold these people guilty for not living their lives to please you. even though they have never really experienced sikhi living. how can you can possibly do that? dont threaten them to become religious. this is rediculous. you cant demand someone to have spiritual enlightenment on cue. it doesnt work like that. you cant demant this from anyone.

now what is the role of the complement of this set of people. those who are fortunate enough to found purpose to their lives through service of their guru. who are lucky enough to be happy and enlightned. their role isnt to look down on the rest of the sangat. on the contrary, they should live their lives and let everyone else see the value of living that way. they are true gursikhs.

ofcourse then there is the group of people within the complement who arent spiritual at all. tehy are like me, who sit around thinking they are better than otehrs just cause they look the act. people like me suck. we are ruining it for everyone. i argue that i shouldnt. i refuse, now to go judging others on how much of a sikh they are. this isnt my role. i should just try to fix my problems, and i got lots of them. instead of interefering and ruining things for everyone. in fact no one should listen to me, i just wish to stop others like me who are out to ruin it for everyone else.

and stop being so condescending about personal religion. that is all it should be for a majority of ppl. why should anyone else be concerned about my moral welfare. its my welfare. let me make my mistakes and let me learn from them. let me discover truths and let me grow. you cant possibly help me by putting me down and saying you dont look the part, you suck. that cant be good, and it can be definitely and absolutely negative for my welfare.

[Jassa]

I have not dictated anytihing...nor am i in a position to do so...

the akaal takht does the dictating and i follow what they say.

im not using human standards, im using sikhi standards...i dont care what human standards are only what my Guru's acceptable standards are.

Who are you to say is devoid of spirituality...You seem to be always suggesting that moneh are always good natured people who want to learn but its the Gursikhs who adopted the roop of their Guru that are the ones who know nothing about their true religion. I think not.

and stop being so condescending about personal religion

where have i done this?

I didnt give my definition of a sikh...I gave Gurbani quotations for my definitions of a sikh with the aid of rehitnamas. Therefore if you want to blame me for my definition ask Guru Ji.

There is no hiding from this line

Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee

which means the rehit is beloved to the Guru...Not the sikh.

I do not consider people who cut their hair to be on a par with Amritdharis as amritdharis have given their head to their Guru. They have followed what Guru Ji's hukam was. If they are of the same statues what is the need for amrit?

and then what do you make of rehit bina nahee sikh kehaavai...which means without rehit one cannot call himself sikh.

Frankly I am not concerned with your welfare.I once was concerned but since your very attitude to my help towards you was to argue I feel no need to consider your welfare.

I never said you dont look the part. so i dont know where you got that from.

When did these sikhs who want to follow maryada become self serving,...I think that there are roles for non keshadari sikhs within a gurdwara but these do not involve the main activities or for Guru Maharaj's Paath. They may do there paath in Gutkeh but it is beyadhbi to allow a patit to do paath from Guru Maharaj's swaroop.

Ive shown you bani quotes but all you have shown me is your personal opinion.i.e your own mat. trying to argue against how Guru Ji has defined it...

Could someone versed with dasmeh patshahi bani please provide the exact quote...I shall try looking aswell.

Even without hearing the quote you are trying to find excuses to hold it to your viewpoint...

Either way...ive heard your views...dont agree with what your saying and would like to see some Gurbani quotations to back up what you are saying.

I didnt say the couldnt learn from Guru Maharaj...They may study it through other means but as yet are not allowed to read from Guru Maharaj saroop as per maryada. I did not say they were not allowed to read full stop. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Beast]

Ive shown you bani quotes but all you have shown me is your personal opinion.i.e your own mat. trying to argue against how Guru Ji has defined it...

Without wanting to second guess sexy_singh, this request might have been due to you previously quoting bani out of context.

[Jassa]

2 quotes were out of context and even still your talking about another topic. that was under the topic of his name. not on this topic.

[Hari]

I have no personal vendetta against anyone. I do however have differences in opinion. Just as some of you have.

Hari you call them heretical, i call you heretical for not accepting them as the leaders of the panth..This institution was started by Guru Ji himself.

I dont know much abouit sikh heritage therefore why comment on something I dont know.

You guys are all just got your kacherreh in a twist because Akal Takht is no longer controlled by Buddha Dal...You guys always complain that people believe amritdharis have monopoly...well how bout Buddha Dal...They want monopoly by saying they are the rightful heirs. Accept it...Budha Dal are not in charge. So please try to reallign into the panth and stop playing the rebel without a cause.

SGPC have surely made mistakes, as does anyone...but they are with good intentions. That is why nearly all panthic institutions accept their command. Even Santa Singh, who git his tankha from an institution that apparently he does not accept. Seems a bit off to me!

The SGPC have no love for Satguru Nanak Nirankar and His (true) beloved Sikh.They care only for their own self and massing of money from Maharaj's golakh.The institute of Shri Akal Takht has been taken over and run by chor and thag (thieves and robbers), this is what my beloved mother, a daughter of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj has said to me many a time.

If you think that me and my mother are heretics for not accepting the heretical SGPC, then so be it.It doesn't affect in any way mine and my mothers love for Satguru Nanak Nirankar, the God of gods, Lord and Master of Maya Devi.

Akaal hi Akaal!!

Gur Bar Akaal!!

Jo Gajke Bolave so Nihal!!

Sat Shri Akaaaal!!!!

[sexy_singh]

I have not dictated anytihing...nor am i in a position to do so... the akaal takht does the dictating and i follow what they say.

No? You dont need a personal opinion when yours is exactly teh same as the status quo. then yuo can sit back and attack others for having personal opinions because that is such a bad thing. i dotn know abuot yuo, but most smart ppl i have met or read bout are AGAINST following authority blindly. yuo end up with horrendous results. read einstein on the matter wrt pre ww2 germany. its the same sort of thinking that gives us the situation where ppl say "i was just doing my job. read abuot the "Milgram Experiment".

im not using human standards, im using sikhi standards...i dont care what human standards are only what my Guru's acceptable standards are.

right. make sure when you are advertising sikhi to the westerners that you bring up thsi point. because equal rights and tolerance have no place in your "Guru's acceptable standards". and dont lie or deceive. be completely honest and upfront and say this. iam still shocked that you continue to speak for the Guru. but i guess anything goes when you are defending your empire. i am probably a threat to the sovereignty of your sikh world with my dangerous warped views.

Who are you to say is devoid of spirituality...You seem to be always suggesting that moneh are always good natured people who want to learn but its the Gursikhs who adopted the roop of their Guru that are the ones who know nothing about their true religion. I think not.

i can do it by looking at the actions of these people. i can do it by looking at what they say. and what they are saying and doing - it tramples the virtues of compassion and tolerance. their actions are manifested in the rules that fix roles within a gurdwara. their thoughts are expressed in those rules.

i suggest moneh are always good natured people and gursikhs dont know anything about their true religion? nice try. i say true gursikhs would not go about denying ANYONE who truly wishes to perform seva in a gurdwara in whatever role it maybe.

you were condescending about personal religion many times. especially when you accuse me of manmat in the other discussions. and in this thread to when when yuo made the below statement. this is condescending.

The Akal Takht have the say on any matter in sikhi and can not be ignored.Fact is, whether it suits your personal brand of sikhi or not..what they say goes.

I didnt give my definition of a sikh...I gave Gurbani quotations for my definitions of a sikh with the aid of rehitnamas. Therefore if you want to blame me for my definition ask Guru Ji.

again, your definition is compliant with errorful authority. i know enough about rehitname to know that they are dynamic in nature and limited in scope to a time period. now if whenever there was a rehitnama for whatever reason that stipulated "a sikh iff said sikh == khalsa" then thats fine for that time period. maybe it was a time of great urgency and war. you'd need a definite way to identity your fellow warrior. these are merely speculations because i lack all the necessary information. what im saying is, that your rehitnama quote doesnt change anything int he discussion we are having now.

I didnt give my definition of a sikh...I gave Gurbani quotations for my definitions of a sikh with the aid of rehitnamas. Therefore if you want to blame me for my definition ask Guru Ji.

Yes, i will definitely ask Guruji why it is acceptable these days to go around accepting ideas that are contrary to humanity because they are said to come frm his authority. evne though NO ATTEMPT is made by these ppl to JUSTIFY the ideas on any basis whatsoever, apart from choice quotes of gurbani that on their own are supposed to convince us of their validity.

There is no hiding from this line

Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee

Nope, no hiding behind this line. Dont you think this means that ones actions and conduct is more important than what religion they are? dont you think guruji would rather see good ppl doign good things rather than ppl who say they are sikhs doing bad things (such as denying others from performing seva and ptuting them down). because that is how i see this quote. it emphasises conduct over religious membership.

which means the rehit is beloved to the Guru...Not the sikh.

yes, agreed.

I do not consider people who cut their hair to be on a par with Amritdharis as amritdharis have given their head to their Guru. They have followed what Guru Ji's hukam was. If they are of the same statues what is the need for amrit?

with all due respect jassa, it is none of your business on who you consider to be better and who lesser. the sangat is of the guru. the guru is in power. everyone else is nothing infront of the guru. we come together in company of the guru to learn and be blessed. and its not up to us students to compare and rate and subjugate roles infront of the guru.

amrit is naam. the best gift anyone can get. its undescribable. iam at a loss of words when it comes to describing it. it is a gift from waheguru. if you are lucky enuogh to get it. then your life will be complete. I'll tell you what it isnt though.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU AUTOMATICALLY BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE.

no. if anything it flows with humility. compassion. love. tolerance. all these good things that are characteristic of a true gursikh. Its NOT elitist.

and then what do you make of rehit bina nahee sikh kehaavai...which means without rehit one cannot call himself sikh.

i think its a perfect thought. it means good conduct is neccesary to call oenself a sikh. you cannot be a sikh unless you live the way. and the way is free of thoughts of superiority.

Frankly I am not concerned with your welfare.I once was concerned but since your very attitude to my help towards you was to argue I feel no need to consider your welfare.

i still hold that your motives werent to help me, but to help your community. you want a community that thinks the exact same way. one that is unaccepting of the process of learning. the milestones of becoming a sikh dont matter, what matters is the final outcome, regardless of why you got there. even if you lack spirituality, thats ok, as long as you look the way and agree with the herd. that is why yuo have given up on me, because im fundamentally opposed to following the crowd just because iam told to. ie. without reasons. and against my morality.

I never said you dont look the part. so i dont know where you got that from.

nah, that was just me speaking in first person as a generic sikh confronted with the option of conform or be disowned.

When did these sikhs who want to follow maryada become self serving,...I think that there are roles for non keshadari sikhs within a gurdwara but these do not involve the main activities or for Guru Maharaj's Paath. They may do there paath in Gutkeh but it is beyadhbi to allow a patit to do paath from Guru Maharaj's swaroop.

ok. as far as i can remember, the latter was allowed by amritdharis. but what about doing kirtan? im not sure exactly what else they've changed. i'll give an update when i check it out myself. what about doinnf Chaur seva? is that cool? Because a big part of me falling in love with sikhi was a memory as a child of five or six doing this as a monah kid. i'd not have had the chance, if i'd be banned from doign so.

Ive shown you bani quotes but all you have shown me is your personal opinion.i.e your own mat. trying to argue against how Guru Ji has defined it...

the reason i havent given gurbani quotes is because i'd never go that far just to win an argument. but ok, personal opinion isnt good enough then thats cool. that is all i can offer.

Even without hearing the quote you are trying to find excuses to hold it to your viewpoint...

not fair. re-read my response to that comment. i was quite clear how i felt.

Either way...ive heard your views...dont agree with what your saying and would like to see some Gurbani quotations to back up what you are saying.

alright then. that wont happen. for the reason mentioned earlier.

I didnt say the couldnt learn from Guru Maharaj...They may study it through other means but as yet are not allowed to read from Guru Maharaj saroop as per maryada. I did not say they were not allowed to read full stop. Stop putting words in my mouth.

im pretty sure i was talking about the task of doing seva, without restrictions on what it is. thats such a valuable thing. i dont want to see it being split up so only only certain ppl can do certain things.

love you jassa. thanks for the replies guys. fateh.

[sexy_singh]

oh and i forgot to say something.

you posted the following which i googled for to determine the source and came to the site http://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/creatert...rthofkhalsa.php

just near to the quote you pasted,

Also Guru Gobind Singh Ji says

Nishan-e-Sikhi ast in Panj har kaf

Hargiz na bashad azin panj muaf

Kara, Karad, Kacha, Kanga bi dan,

Bina kesh kes hech ast jumla nishan.

[These five letters of K are emblems of Sikhism.

These five are most incumbent, Steel Bangle,

big knife, shorts and a comb; without

unshorn hair the other four are of no

significance]

is this quote also attributed to guru gobind singhji:

"You are now of one creed, followers of one path. You are above all religions, all creeds, all castes, and all classes. You are the immortal soldiers of true dharam. You are messengers of God. The honour of the honourless is entrusted to you by Waheguru. Mix freely with the world, but remain of one soul, one ideal and one mind, so you act as one soul and one mind in the service of Waheguru. You are members of the Khalsa brotherhood. You are all brothers, all equal. No one is superior to the other. Work for the supremacy of His Will with one mind. Success is sure. From today your salutation will be : Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fatah.

pretty sure this is just as important as keeping the 5ks.

[g_singh]

I think Jassa means this quote in some of his above posts:

"This is my commandment to you my Sikhs, if you do not keep your hair as well as your arms (weapons), do not appear in my presence"

Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth

If a Sikh cannot follow Guru Jis message of wearing the 5 K's, what chance do they have following Guru Ji's messages of being a good person? It is much easier to wear the 5 K's, than to mentally disicpline yourself and align yourself with Guru Jis message. Hence those that do not have enough love and faith in Guru Ji's simple message to even bother wearing the 5 K's, i wander how much these people are actually going to follow the other messages Guru Ji.

These are my opinions devised from my own experiences, am not participating in any arguments.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Gurjit Singh

[Sardu]

hi guys i've got a bit of a problem. i've recently come to know that my gurdwara in my home town has been undergoing some reforms under the persistence of a vocal minority and it is no longer the way it used to be.

im told that the new policy is to to remove completely the role of any non kesh dhari sikhs. this is suprising to me because i never expected this to happen since we have a small community and we usually get along despite our differences in appearance. im also saddened to know that instead of building a community of love and tolerance it is becoming one of arrogance and elitism. i think this is contrary to the sikhi spirit.

Though, I Didn't read the above 3 page dicussion. but i feel.. its unfortunate... and its hard for me to believe that ..aisa bhee hota hai!!

[sukhsingh]

"This is my commandment to you my Sikhs, if you do not keep your hair as well as your arms (weapons), do not appear in my presence"

Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth

plz give the ang # of this quote...

[sexy_singh]

If a Sikh cannot follow Guru Jis message of wearing the 5 K's, what chance do they have following Guru Ji's messages of being a good person? It is much easier to wear the 5 K's, than to mentally disicpline yourself and align yourself with Guru Jis message. Hence those that do not have enough love and faith in Guru Ji's simple message to even bother wearing the 5 K's, i wander how much these people are actually going to follow the other messages Guru Ji.

These are my opinions devised from my own experiences, am not participating in any arguments

Thanks Gurjit Singh, appreciate your thoughts. i understand what you say. do you not think it cuts both ways though?

if its very easy to wear the 5ks and if ppl dont even do that, that shows that they arent genuine, isnt it also the case that its easy for ppl to wear the 5k and not "going to follow the other messages of Guru Ji"?

personally i'd rather ppl take guru ka roop only if they are gonna live the way of the gurus too. otherwise we risk diluting the veracity of khalsa. im sure we all agree about this though.

[g_singh]

Sukhsingh i dont know where exactly from within the Dasam Granth Ji the quote is from, I got it from a BOSS (British Organisation of Sikh Societies) poster, and have also heard a very knowledged Giani mention it during katha.

I agree sexy_singh that it does cut both ways, that people who do wear the 5 K's can neglect the messages of ours Guru Jis. I know many people who do this, and am saddened by it. I just think its more likely somebody who wears the 5 Ks is likely to follow these messages. It is true though that all messages of the Gurus should be followed. Its not easy to do this, especially in todays world, but we should always try our best.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Gurjit Singh

[Jassa]

You know wat...

i cant be bothered answering someone who's only attempt is to find his own solution to Gurbani quotes which are clear cut...

Who are you to decide weher a rehitnama is right for today...

If something was said then within rehitnamas it applies now..give me one example of where you feel it can be excluded.

I do not accept your personal opinon..i accept only from my Guru Ji...

i do follow akal takht..if you feel this to be following the statues quo then so be it....this institution was set up by Guru Hargibind Ji and he manifested his power into it. I follw their hukam and consider it my Guru's Hukam.

The moderators have always stated to follow up whatever you say with quotes from refernces/Gurbani. You have provided none. You have none. Your argument is based upon your own manmat.

I am by no means perfect, but i strive to follow wha my Guru says to the letter.

If my Guru says jump ill ask how high. You however seem to think that we should question ourselves as to why. Its clear we're from different schools of thought and we will never agree. Therefore you continue your path and i will continue mine.

There was a sakhi from Guru gobind Singh Ji's darbar...

A sikh came to visit Guru Ji, and as was customary in those days he bought 2 guns. Guru Ji then asked to test the guns...and asked for people to test them on...immediately tehre ws a fight amongat some singhs forthe honour of being shot by the Guru.

The same principle can be seen ion the formation of the Khalsa.If those singhs had used their own minds they would have thought why would i want to die. But they didnt they just blindly followed orders.

If you look at the battles of Anandpur whe people tried to use their way and asked Guru Ji to leave Anandpur. Guru Ji said no wait...but they insisted. They said that the mughals would give them safe passage...They did not listen to their Guru..

and no you do no understand what Gurjit Singh is saying because that is what I have said and you have argued non stop.

You have been pesented with the quote

"This is my commandment to you my Sikhs, if you do not keep your hair as well as your arms (weapons), do not appear in my presence"

Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth

How can you still give your own view when its spelt out so clearly!!!

You said i should not hesitate to tell Goreh what my religion says, and i will not...

and i dont care what einstein or anyone says...What my Guru says matters..And he spelt in clearly.

Rehit means discipline and code of conduct. What rehit have these moneh followed. I dont know the Gursikhs in this example which you are so eager to bash, but i believe they are simply upholding marayada.

If these moneh had pyaar for Guru Ji they would follow his hukam of keeping kes.

I dont know what the marayada for non amritdharis doing kirtan is. At present you may not do kitan in Darbar Sahib Amritsar if you are not Amritdhari.

I will only pay attention to future postings by you if they have reference to Rehitnamas/Gurbani or writigs by sikh authoratative figures.

Moderators...you always complain that all posts should have references etc...why are you not enforcing this here?

[sexy_singh]

hey jassa, i wrote several replies (rather long ones infact) where i went through and addressed your points, each single one and gave examples of past rehit name that would now be considered utterly rediculous. for example i think bhai daya singhs rehitnama from the 1700 had the command "do not place any oil on your hair". this wasnt the exception but the rule. anyway, for some reason time my browser died just before i hit submit.. so maybe i was never meant to post those replies.

rehit name do go out of date. this is a fact. and i dont see why you have a problem with this. as to the case of mone within the sangat. well, if i lived in punjab, which maybe you do and then if i saw so called sikh kids going aroung doing nashe, cutting their hair, not having any morals but still claiming to be sikhs, i'd be pretty pissed off. i might even react to it by saying all moneh are useless ppl. and so on. ok, so i understand where you might be coming from.

also as screwed as the climate is, with all the stuff that has happened to the sikhs over the centuries you might take up a insular view and i can appreciate this also. 1984. attacks from brahmincal forces throughout the history of the sikhs. mughal oppression. and now you might, well the panth is falling apart. we should be more hardcore, more strong. moer unified. more true to the guru. i get this sentiment. i've had these thoughts in me as well.

but then i also think a true gursikh wouldnt let the circumstance affect his conduct and hist hinking. he wouldnt become a reactionary to the enviroment. especially wirth respect to his morals and his ethics. and these sorts of things. so i still think us sikhs, who are sikhs, in your way of seeing things, those who are keshdhari, that THEY shouldnt ALWAYS be so judgemental. i mean, is it too much to ask that not all moneh be treated like crap? or anyone for that matter. a hindu, a musalman. just give ppl a chance. if our gurdware are gonna be run so strictly, then we should be clear that we do love all ppl equally. its just we wish to run our gurdwara in line with the panth.

i also think the panth is sccrewed up. and some say it was always screwed up. thats probably true as well. but anyway, im no longer concerned about these issues.

if the panth is screwed, because we have made it ok for ppl like you, to have the views you have, to accept these. then the panth is just another religious body. it has lost its characteristics given by our gurus. its just another group. it has lost its highness of character. richness of humility. quality of tolerance. beauty of love. its now just a thing thats under attack and it reacts to it by trying to save itself.

so you can have your panth, and run it the way you want. that isnt my problem any more.

im just gonna try to be a good sikh, and try to treat ppl well. and stick to that. im not a mona btw, im amritdhari, just so you know, jassa.

last post. good luck everyone!

[Amrikingh]

losing my gurdwara

Try and keep it safe then

[Pheena]

T

Guru Ji says "Rehit bina nahi sikh kehaavai"

or "Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee"

If this is what Guru Ji says, then why should the people who do not follow Guru Ji's rehit, and therefore are not his beloved be allowed to do his sewa.

Correction, from what i've read those are not the words of Guru Gobind Singh ji, rather they are the words of Bhai Desa Singh ji.

(page 1015 of Amrit Kirtan)

"I love the Sikh Rehit; the Sikh himself is not my beloved.

The one who lives the Sikh lifestyle is my Sikh; he is my master and I am his disciple.

Without the Rehit no one can be a Sikh; without the Rehit one will face difficulties at all times.

Without the Rehit he cannot be comfortable at all; that is why a Sikh should be committed to the Rehit."

if you have other evidence which says it is infact the words of the 10th Nanak, please do provide refrences. I had actualy asked that question regarding who spoke those words and that was the answer i was given.

this might be off-topic so i apologize. but i had to reply to this.