Do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

[Guest]

A clarification is in order.N30 Singh has asked, and I shall clarify.First I must admit to my own fault, I tend to be cryptic a lot.I'm sorry but that's just the way I am.If you were you to get to know more intimately, you would soon become frustrated with my oblique answers and questions.I find it hard to express some things I've experienced.Anyway that's enough.

Right, Khanda Amrit is not meant to be impotent in the first place.It is stirred by a Khanda, a weapon which represents Adishakti Parshakti (read Var Durga Ki, it's there, Khanda = Eka Mai).Therefore it is Shakti Amrit.It is meant to be very potent.But nowadays you get "mass market" "amrit".Which is not good.Khanda Amrit is the Amrit of Death.You have to be willing to die for Dharma if you're going to be Amritdhari.There are many who call themselves Amritdhari, but are they Amritdhari?Are they really?Even if one of the Panj who prepares Amrit is faulty, then that which they make is not Amrit.I know for a fact that Khanda Amrit has been made by paapi "Panj Pyara" (somebody I used to know who used to have sex with his daughter in law, and be a Panj Pyara :x ).So that's one way Khanda Amrit isn't Amrit.Another I believe is if the Panj aren't proper Singh.I mean Shastardhari tyar bar tyar, know how to wield that Khanda they use to make Amrit :twisted: .You know what I mean?

I don't like 5 K's, "Amrit chhako!!", "I am Amritdhari" blah blah Sikhism.This is Sikhism, a religion.Religion is bad, always has been.Ask the Christian Gnostics.

Where is 5 K's mentioned in Gurbani or old history?Nowhere matey!As far as I've found, you have the trai-mudra and Panj Shastar Parvan.Why don't the "Amritdhari'" of today follow this Hukam of 5 Shastar Parvan?Is the 5 K a sort of insipid compromise by boot licking Singh Sabhias?Oh I know we'll just have a pathetic excuse for a kara and kirpan, just so we don't draw too much attention to ourselves, by the fact that the Khalsa Panth is actually supposed to carry weapons not pieces of metal that are "symbols".It's ridiculous how so many Amritdhari are duped into thinking that the piece of metal they wear on a gatra is a kirpan, a nar-nakha maybe, but not a kirpan.And do they know how to use one?Are they willing to put in the years of practice to learn how to use one effectively?

Tiro tufango bado ram jango, dhamak dhar, ani-ar, kamand korara, Panj Shastar Parvan!!Suno Nand Lal yeh saj!!Pargat Karun apna raj!

Thanks a lot for clarifying Hari Ji. I completely 200 % agree with you...Whoever is taking amrit have to make sure that their panj pyares are spiritually accomplished not just perverts, kursi hungry, money monsters, theifs, molesters, murders etc...

As one of the saints says: Rising of malech Khalsa is directly from the Jevan of so called sevadars who does panj pyares di seva who do evil things yet still yet manage to give amrit in the soceity :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[AnotherSingh]

In Sikhi, we, the learner, the disciple, are supposed to submit to the will of the Guru, the one who will save us, the enlightener. It is not for us to change things to make life easier for us. I've noticed that you ignored my comments about kesh/dastaar. That's mostly what it's about, right?

There are a lot of scholars with no faith in the Guru who will say such things, there are others who will say the opposite and actually be able to back up their statements. The problem doesn't seem to be the way Sikhe is setup, but the way your attitude is setup.

[SikhWannaBe]

I've noticed that you ignored my comments about kesh/dastaar. That's mostly what it's about, right?

There are a lot of scholars with no faith in the Guru who will say such things, there are others who will say the opposite and actually be able to back up their statements. The problem doesn't seem to be the way Sikhe is setup, but the way your attitude is setup.

Well if you wanted my attention you've got it. I have criticized all 5Ks in an earlier post, I don't think they are of any use to a person in the world 'today', I recognize their metaphoric value but that isn't going to avoid the discrimination that plagues our world today. I can definately handle the sacrifice but why should my children have to pay the price of my faith's stubborness. I have to provide for them first and think about my personal enlightenment second. I was only hoping that my faith could appreciate the difficulties facing people outside India.

I will ignore your point about my attitude this time but next time you want to insult me I suggest you shed your computer identity and say who you are. My name is written numerous times in these posts since I have nothing to hide or no-one to fear. I didn't come here to upset you but merely learn from you and others. And I am happy to say that I have learned alot but if my presence is that upsetting to you, no problem I can leave you in your ignorant bliss.

Charn Gill

[Infernal Monk]

First of all I don't think he was trying to insult you, don't get so offended by people, especially on the internet.

Anyway, I don't think you have read any of my posts..not to say they are better, but they attempted to answer some of your questions.

About you not wanting your children to grow up and face discrimination...um..I think that will happen regardless.

I'm a keshdhari sikh, and grew up as one in an American school ever since I was 7 years old. My school's were primarily white christians, sure there were idiots, but nothing too severe. My highschool had 3500 kids, I was the only sikh there. I know you want to protect your kids, but take it from someone who has been there...it won't be a probelm especially if your kids get involved. Till college most of my friends were white..lol.

Also, try to understand the meaning of the 5k's before you try and argue their usefullness..

THIS IN NOT AN ATTACK ON U, DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH

[Sukhi]

I don't have much time today to respond so I apologize for shortness of answers I mean no harm.

1. I stated very early that I have no credibility, it is others that suggested there are no experts here and therefore I should feel free to speak.

2. Yes, I made an assumption about 'Sukhi' but like any good writer I acknowledged it before someone could call me on it, unlike others that made assumptions about me.

3. The fact that you keep the reasons for your non-participation in the 5Ks to yourself is exactly the type of answers I was looking for. I am not asking you to out yourself but realize that if there is anything in your reasons that could apply to others it maybe helpful to hear it.

4. An assumption was made that I believe my parents can teach me everything. I didn't say anything of the sought, in fact my parents no very little about the faith. What I was trying to get at is that there are countless millions of people that live there daily lives in an honest way but have never been influenced by Sikhism. I believe they are also Sikhs even if they don't know it.

5. I have heard some posters tell me that I am Sikh, while others continue to try and strip me of my faith. You need to take long hard look at your actions, what purpose do they serve? If it is the protection of your faith what have I done to threaten it? My only intention is to strengthen it.

6. Yes, I am the first to say I know very little about Sikhi but does that make my comments any less valid? No one has addressed some of the others that have agreed with my comments. I guess they are too ignorant to be answered also.

7. On the topic of my scholars with no names, I am sorry that I don't have time right now to dig up the stuff I have read in the past but I don't lie and have nothing to benefit from lying. The retention rate for Judaism is also on the decline, Jewish scholars recognize it and are trying to address it. Heck they are the chosen people and their numbers are declining what does that say for Sikhs and any other relatively new faith.

8. I asked in one of my posts what happened to the process for people like me that wanted to take Amrit but didn't want to keep the 5Ks? Why is nobody addressing that, was I mistaken? If there was such a process who took it away and who gave them the right to take it away? Did a new Guru show up when I wasn't looking. It is these people that need to be banished from calling themselves Sikh.

9. I remember when I was a kid my mom used to take me to Wednesfield Gurdwara. There was a white brit that used to come in regularily, I often asked my mom why he was here and she would point to a sign that said all are welcome. I loved that sign and despise those that have put up the new sign on the entire faith that says 'enter only when you submit to the 5Ks'.

10. I am a member of student govt at my law school, the faculty and administration include us in every committee whether it is finance, policy, HR etc. but notably we are on the admissions committee. This year I will be reviewing applications to decide who may enter the law school. The faculty and administration are the first to recognize the value of our input. Most bodies welcome input from all participants, it is only dictators that want no input.

11. Even if all of my recommendations are not welcome, we are not even able to move forward on those that we agree on since we have no one listening to us.

Charn

SWB... this thread is 4 pages long and it's the SAME flippin things being said over and over again.

before i start addressing your comments, you seriously need to take up my suggestion of educating yourself on Sikhi. seriously. before you can talk about something, you should have some sort of working knowledge in it. and i'm not saying this to insult you or demean you or degrade your status. but i'm pretty sure that a lot of us have delved a lil deeper into Sikhi to come up with our responses to your queries.

1. yes, you should definitely feel free to speak. as you can see, no one has stopped you from having your opinions. but u seem to have a problem with the fact that people aren't necessarily always agreeing with you.

2. thank you for recognizing the fact that you made an assumption. next time, when you realize you're making an assumption, don't make it.

3. my reasons for not taking Amrit... haha... so now u want personal info on me and my life, huh... well, i'm not gonna divulge in details but the gist of it is that i don't feel like i'm ready to be a part of the Khalsa yet. as many people have stated, Khalsa's are definitely Sikhs, but Sikhs aren't always a part of the Khalsa. so... fyi, i'm a Sikh, just not a Khalsa Sikh.

4. correction: i didn't say that your parents taught you everything. but you seem to imply in your own posts that everything you learnt about Sikhi comes from what your parents taught you. please correct me if i'm wrong, but that is what i saw in your posts.

5. not tryin to strip you of your faith or even give you some more faith in your faith. and if you think that you're enough to threaten Sikhi with your suggestions... hahaha... you dunno what Sikhi's about then, do you... what purpose do my actions serve by discussing your points with you? to exchange ideas. to discuss things that are relevant issues with other people in the faith. what are yours?

6. i've been addressing just about everyone in this thread whether they agree with you or not. and if you're talking about people who have come onto SA in the past, lemme assure you that those people were also addressed. it just so happens that you make the comments that i feel the need to reply to most of the time.

7. once again... quantity vs. quality. you already know what i think about that.

8. someone's already answered this for you.

9. i've never seen a sign that says that yet. but you shouldn't be surprised. if there are people who are interested in getting rid of the 5 Ks, such as yourself, there are also people on the other side of the spectrum that are interested in ensuring the rest of the population of Sikhs become khalsa Sikhs.

10. giving input and having full control over what goes on are two different things.

11. who is we and what are you talking about?

now for some additional points...

yes infernal monk, i agree with you. all of this has been discussed over and over again, and i don't think he's understanding. i feel like "deja vu!" every time i come to this thread.

SWB, i gotta hand it to you. you're very strong in your beliefs. but you're so strong in them that you're stuck in this mode of not wanting to really look at what other's are saying to you. please extend the same courtesy to us that we extend to you by genuinely taking into account our comments.

[SikhWannaBe]

Infernal Monk

Thank you for sharing your personal experience but I was not referring to protecting my children from discrimination. I expect the colour of their skin will warrant discrimination regardless of the 5Ks. What I was trying to protect them from is having to live in poverty or a lower standard of living than they deserve. As a lawyer to be, I am most aware of the hiring practices of this field and can tell you there are no visibly Sikh lawyers in the higher paying legal positions in Toronto. I accept that there may be a couple that I haven't come across but I doubt it. Why should I have to take a lower paying position simply because I choose to participate in the 5Ks and consequently why should my children live a lower standard of living. This is what I am talking about when I say I have to provide for my children first.

It is only after Sikhs infiltrate these elite communities will we be able to shatter ignorant stereotypes that keep us down at the moment. If I work at one of these firms and consequently their persepective changes towards Sikhs it will open the door to visibly Sikh applicants in the future.

I think many before you and I have done just that in other fields and we owe them alot for sacrificing their beliefs for the betterment of our whole community.

Unfortuntely, the Sikhs that have infiltrated the upper echelon rarely look back at where they came from, I believe this is a result of a faith that did not support them on the path they chose.

And please before you or someone says that I am materialistic, please realize that philanthropy is not possible without money.

As far as your request that I try to understand more about the 5Ks before calling for change...I believe there is nothing you can say that can warrant my not being able to afford the lifestyle I want for my kids. I am personally very eager to participate in the 5Ks because I think it will be a humbling experience that can only help my personal growth but I cannot afford to do it at this time.

As far as insults, I take them personally since I am writing personally. I have opened up the doors of my life and I am not going to tolerate someone passing judgment on it or my attitude.

Sukhi_V

I apologize if you feel I am wasting your time, I have read all of the posts at length and I stated from the very beginning that I respect those that want to participate in the 5Ks, my question was not really about the validity of the 5Ks but really to address the reality of many like myself that want to participate in the 5Ks but feel they cannot at this time. I think this group is very large and therefore affecting the growth of Sikhism. I hear your point that Sikhism is not concerned with growth. So I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. But I wish there was a way for us to co-exist and work on some of the points that both sides agree upon.

Charn Gill

[Sukhi]

Charn Gill, i fail to see how exactly it is you believe that the 5 Ks detract from a person's social standing. i have friends that are extremely intelligent with all 5 Ks that are prominent professionals.

if you look for negativity, tha's all ur gonna get.

i'm not gonna deny that some people get very self-conscious about their appearance. and i'm certainly not going to deny that discrimination does exist in the workplace.

but i will deny your claim that you need to drop your religious beliefs to get anywhere professionally.

as for your comment about not being ready to take on the commitment of the 5 Ks... i don't think you should do that even if you felt financially secure without actually understanding what they're about. no one is telling you that you must immediately take amrit to be a Sikh. it has been said in a variety of posts that being a Sikh doesn't necessarily mean you have to a part of the Khalsa.

there is a choice.

i don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. if i thought this topic was a waste of time, i wouldn't come here and share my thoughts. i apologize if that's the impression you got from my "deja vu" comment. i simply meant that things are just being repeated over and over again.

to end this post, i would like to pose a question to you now, Charn. what makes a Sikh in your opinion?

it seems to me that we've been discussing this in a most roundabout fashion. you've been concerned about the 5 Ks and amrit, and at the same time your status as a Sikh. i'd just like to clarify on exactly what you think constitutes a person as being a Sikh.

this isn't a challenge, but rather merely something i wanna know to clarify your ideas for myself. everyone here has their own defintions as you already know. so please share your own.

[Infernal Monk]

Infernal Monk

Thank you for sharing your personal experience but I was not referring to protecting my children from discrimination. I expect the colour of their skin will warrant discrimination regardless of the 5Ks. What I was trying to protect them from is having to live in poverty or a lower standard of living than they deserve. As a lawyer to be, I am most aware of the hiring practices of this field and can tell you there are no visibly Sikh lawyers in the higher paying legal positions in Toronto. I accept that there may be a couple that I haven't come across but I doubt it. Why should I have to take a lower paying position simply because I choose to participate in the 5Ks and consequently why should my children live a lower standard of living. This is what I am talking about when I say I have to provide for my children first.

It is only after Sikhs infiltrate these elite communities will we be able to shatter ignorant stereotypes that keep us down at the moment. If I work at one of these firms and consequently their persepective changes towards Sikhs it will open the door to visibly Sikh applicants in the future.

This is a semi-valid point in that sure some people will discriminate against you when getting a job. But I feel that this lacks substance. To say that with 5ks you cannot get a good job is ludicrious. I have many friends with very prominent jobs, know many people that are Sikh and millionaries. I also read somewhere that the richest young person in England is a Sikh...to me this point about a job does not seem substantial, as in the end it is your skill that gets you a job.

As far as your request that I try to understand more about the 5Ks before calling for change...I believe there is nothing you can say that can warrant my not being able to afford the lifestyle I want for my kids. I am personally very eager to participate in the 5Ks because I think it will be a humbling experience that can only help my personal growth but I cannot afford to do it at this time.

Um..how does my asking you to learn more about the 5ks keep you from providing for your kids? Sorry a little lost on that... (I meant learning it the literal sense of the word, did not mean for you to follow it...maybe that clears it up.. :?: )

I apologize if you feel I am wasting your time, I have read all of the posts at length and I stated from the very beginning that I respect those that want to participate in the 5Ks, my question was not really about the validity of the 5Ks but really to address the reality of many like myself that want to participate in the 5Ks but feel they cannot at this time. I think this group is very large and therefore affecting the growth of Sikhism. I hear your point that Sikhism is not concerned with growth. So I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. But I wish there was a way for us to co-exist and work on some of the points that both sides agree upon.

Charn Gill

Again I don't think you have read the posts here very carefully. You say that you want to participate in the 5ks but feel that you cannot at this point...This is a perfectly reasonable answer. This is how most people feel, this is how I feel. I would like to be Khalsa one day, but I know for a fact I can't do it now. No one said you need to do it now. And as already said those that would disrespect you just because you don't follow 5ks are just ignorant.

[SikhWannaBe]

Charn Gill, i fail to see how exactly it is you believe that the 5 Ks detract from a person's social standing. i have friends that are extremely intelligent with all 5 Ks that are prominent professionals.

I don't recall speaking specifically to social standing or intelligence, I was speaking about opportunities to earn. I was born in the U.K. and go back rather often, while in the U.K. I feel a sense of freedom by observing so many visibly Sikh individuals in varying professions. Unfortunately, In Toronto my experience is very different. It is very rare to see visibly Sikh individuals in anything other than low paying positions. Toronto is many years behind British cities as far as integration of Sikhs. And as I feel the pressure today, the Sikhs in the U.K. from generations before us also felt the pressure to cut their hair to integrate. It is their sacrifice, along with those that chose to keep the 5Ks that have improved things for the current generation of Sikhs. I only want to make things better(easier) for the next generation.

if you look for negativity, tha's all ur gonna get.

Trust me I am not looking for negativity, I am a very positive person but also a realist.

i'm not gonna deny that some people get very self-conscious about their appearance. and i'm certainly not going to deny that discrimination does exist in the workplace.

but i will deny your claim that you need to drop your religious beliefs to get anywhere professionally.

I am not saying to drop them but rather be able to mask them. Why should I have an outward indicator of my faith. Yes, I understand that this was exactly the point of the 5Ks but today seeing a Khalsa Sikh is no quarantee that he can and will understand his/her calling. Therefore, why not stand out by your actions rather than your appearance. I think this achieves the same goal.

as for your comment about not being ready to take on the commitment of the 5 Ks... i don't think you should do that even if you felt financially secure without actually understanding what they're about. no one is telling you that you must immediately take amrit to be a Sikh. it has been said in a variety of posts that being a Sikh doesn't necessarily mean you have to a part of the Khalsa.

there is a choice.

I realize this and when I say I would like to participate I mean from an educational perspective. I don't think that I can wake up tomorrow and start participating in the 5Ks. I mean I wish I had the time to set aside all else in my life and learn all there is to learn about Sikhi, which will include the 5Ks and many other aspects. I don't claim to know anything other than a very periferal view.

i don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. if i thought this topic was a waste of time, i wouldn't come here and share my thoughts. i apologize if that's the impression you got from my "deja vu" comment. i simply meant that things are just being repeated over and over again.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just appreciate how long it takes to post like this while also studying. Please don't think I haven't learned anything.

to end this post, i would like to pose a question to you now, Charn. what makes a Sikh in your opinion?

I think a Sikh was best described by Dynamic_Banda when he said all you have to do is Naam, whether by recitation, meditation or action. My answer is very short and I don't think it needs to be any more complicated. I don't think I need to participate in the 5Ks or any other ritual as long as my mind is pure. I do believe I must be on a constant charge to better myself and humanity.

For me, I can say that I rarely recite or meditate but I look at all actions I take daily, including things that are as minuscule as typing this post. I try to leave things in a better way than I found them and offer assistance to whoever needs or wants it. To leave the planet better than we found it is the purpose of my whole existence. I entered law school after selling a profitable business. If all I sought was material possessions I could have been a multi-millionaire by now. I believe law can be used to get very wealthy but it can also be used for the greater good. In that vain I joined the newly created Sikh Law Students Association at Osgoode Hall Law School and I have started an initiative to try and create a scholarship for future Sikhs that want to enter law. It is through trying to create this scholarship that the fragmentation of the Sikh community in Toronto has become most apparent. My colleague is the President of the Jewish Law Students Association, which is also raising funds to combat anti-semitism, he was able to raise $13,000 through an afternoon of phone calls. I haven't gotten a dime yet, and expect it to take me months to even get close to that amount. I would like to see our community grow spiritually as well as economically since I believe it would be a sin for us to use the money for anything other than the betterment of all.

Sorry I strayed a little but my point is that I try to lead an honest life and try to help my fellow man, which includes Sikhs.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

jeao maile bahroh nirmal

we shud never be pure on the outside, and dirty on the indside

thas the worst thing

to be something ure not

BUT

guru je aslo says

jeao nirmal bahroh nirmal

one who is truly attached to guru je will be pure from in AND out

then there countless other thuks like

raheni rahe sohi sikh mera oh sahib ma oska charea

or

reight pyarae mujk ko sikh pyara nahee

sant baba nand singh je also said one thig

helping others is good, but without following on the path of god its all useless

just a though

but in end

pure from in

AND

out

we need both

one by itsels wont work

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Infernal Monk]

WJKK WJKF!

Sikhi, does not confine to keeping hair. Sikhi is a garden where different kinds of flowers can bloom and make it beautiful. Anybody can be and call himself a Sikh, who worship and believes in the principles of Guru Granth Sahibji.

The Khalsa (baptized Sikh) is a fence to protect that garden. When a man or woman is baptized i.e. Amrit-Pan, he/she becomes Khalsa and needs a uniform of 5K and to live under the strict code of conduct, prescribed by Guru Gobind Singhji. If Khalsa start thinking that he/she is the only Sikh, it is their ignorance. A country is not confined to its Army, it’s the people who live, work and contribute in that country. Army is only to protect them. So baptized Sikh (known as Khalsa) is the army of Guru Gobind Singhji. A person who keeps hair and wear turban, if not baptize, is not a Khalsa. He is like others, who worship Guru Granth Sahibji.

The Sikh history tells that Guru Gobind Singhji had Muslim and Hindu followers even after Khalsa was formed. So, Sikh can be anybody, Hindu, Muslim or a person with hair (Kesh) or not. Our Gurujees tried to spread the Sikh religion, as a universal religion. It is only, the SGPC or a few selfish leaders/jathedars, who are trying to narrow it down to keeping the hair and wearing turban. But these leaders don’t practise what they preach. Their moral is not as high as it should be. They fight for their position, cheat, steal and even don’t speak the truth. They are not afraid of God because they dictate the terms to God.

We see, people of other religions keeping hair and wearing turbans. Would you call and treat them as a Sikh? The Sikhs suffered after September 11 attack on USA, because they were misidentified as Muslims. We say Guru Gobind Singhji gave “Singh†as a name to the Sikhs, after baptizing them. That’s right. But now everybody have started writing the word “Singh†after their name – we see most of people in Haryana, Gujarat, Rajasthan, write “Singh†with their name. Would you define them as a Sikh? So what is the significance of hair, turban or the name with Singh? You are the better judge!

I pray to WAHE GURU to give us the strength and good sense to spread the Sikhism and not to confine it into a narrow circle. I also pray that WAHE GURU give us Sumat (good sense) to avoid the hypocrisy and follow the principles of our Gurus in true sense.

Pul Chuk Maf!

Above quote from Sikhnet, writen by user: Amarjit Singh04

I just thought it was a good post, and might be worth reading.

[SikhWannaBe]

Infernal Monk

That quote captures what I have been trying to convey but I probably wasn't as effective or concise.

You didn't provide your thoughts on the quote, I am curious?

Charn

[drawrof]

For Sikhwannabe,

I'm gonna keep it simple.

keep up the good work, It appears that you are working with the right intention and are very realistic in terms of what the world has to offer and where issues do arise.

I agree 100% that non-visible sikhs will help more visible sikhs by opening doors, I also do believe that visible sikhs have made that contribution as well.

for example, scotiabank, nortel, cibc, and newbridge all have very senior people who are visible sikhs.

I believe we can all agree that looking different warrants discrimination, as someone who has recently adopted the sikh "look", I can say that I have taken more responsibility on my shoulders by actually making a point of being extra nice, more approachable, and aware of how I make others feel. I feel, for me, and everyone else, this allows everyone to grow. I am not going to say that the only way to break barriers is to adopt this route, but I will say that getting involved (Whether one be amritdhari or not) is definitely helping to bridge gaps. People will care less about how you look when you have made them feel good, or provide some sort of benefit to them.

let me share a personal experience (it happened this past week). I was in a group for my final year thesis course, and we had 2 new people who joined. both were older ladies who were older caucasian ladies. They saw me with my turban and for the longest time would just sit there and stare. I was the leader of the group, and I was admittedly tardy, but I was consistent and we got our stuff put together and our report done. I would talk to them normally, cause little tension, and make them laugh....(thats my nature overall, I guess), and before they left, they asked me to pass on my resume because they know of a few openings. I found that to be excellent, I know now that the next time they see a person with a turban, the stigma attached to one being "different" will decrease, somewhat.

I completely agree with the media Idea, it is something that needs to be implemented at a greater level. sikhs, as a whole should look to somehow penetrating canadian and other non-indian cultures by doing so. It will give the community strength and a voice. I am of the opinion that gurdwara's on a whole should exhibit the humanity they preach within, to the societies they respectively belong to. Ie, the mississauga gurdwara extends itself to local highschools to teach the students about the sikh traditions. A volunteer has told me that he has had the most cynical students turn around and thank him, because they understand and appreciate where that person is coming from.

The world is changing, attitudes may not be, as quickly, but it will become a necessity for most companies to have diversity in their workforce (not for mere efficiency), but also for credibility in global operations. There is going to be ample room for many if they know how to market theirselves.

There are harsh realities in this world, and ,truthfully, we don't excercise full control on anything, but whatever we do elect to do, lets do it with the right intention and right focus in mind. What should be done by everyone, on this forum, in their own way, is to make a positive impression in this world, however you can. smile, be nice, be seen...let society see that these sikhs (turbaned and non-turbaned...as looks are just as temporary as our lives) are contributing members of their society. let our actions be our religion, let our motivation be truthful, just, and positive in nature, and let our inspiration be that unattainable commodity (god) that has and still does constantly provide the world with exemplar role models that fight for dharam (universal truths).

my opinion: everything is an inhibitor, and nothing is an inhibitor, it depends on what you are willing to endure, and how reluctant you are to accept the best alternative (ie. being an orthopedic surgeon as opposed to a urologist).

[SikhWannaBe]

Dear Drawrof,

I thank you for the appreciation and I in turn appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Your suggestions are great and as I stated earlier I try to live by a similar sentiment.

But what I think we need now, is a collective movement towards the ideals that you and Sikhism encourages.

Somebody needs to co-ordinate Sikhs both visible and non-visible to work together on identifying goals for our community members on a personal, community and global level.

I am suggesting a new forum whether it is this website, an organization or another entity where Sikhs can come together for the sole purpose of discussing the advancement of our faith and culture.

To be clear I am not talking about changing our faith in anyway but strictly to identify areas that may need attention and then suggest possible solutions.

As I stated earlier, I am going to be contacting alot of the Sikh community in Toronto regarding the Legal Scholarship I want to create. It seems like a good idea to collect the information of contributors so that we can start to create a list of Sikhs that could be used to advance other issues.

If we did this on a global scale and created a newsletter for example it could become a very powerful medium to influence our community for the positive.

There are other faiths in our communities that may not share the same ideals as ours but are more effective at mobilizing their community. We can mimic their success to our advantage. I often use the Jewish community as an example since I am constantly amazed at their level of organization. For example, do you know that there is a program they created that allows any Jewish child born in Canada to visit Israel for free. Our community is far from creating a program like that but if we don't begin thinking about it, we will never get there.

My comments sound like they have out grown this thread so I will repost what I just said in a new post asking for participants and support.

[Infernal Monk]

Infernal Monk

That quote captures what I have been trying to convey but I probably wasn't as effective or concise.

You didn't provide your thoughts on the quote, I am curious?

Charn

I believe I already mentioned all the things in the quote in my earlier posts.

But for clarification, yes, I do agree with the quote.

[Sukhi]

before i begin, SWB, i just took a look at the other posts. i think it's great that ur making an effort to help out the Sikh community just as i think it's great that you've said you make an effort to help out others. good job!

I don't recall speaking specifically to social standing or intelligence, I was speaking about opportunities to earn. I was born in the U.K. and go back rather often, while in the U.K. I feel a sense of freedom by observing so many visibly Sikh individuals in varying professions. Unfortunately, In Toronto my experience is very different. It is very rare to see visibly Sikh individuals in anything other than low paying positions. Toronto is many years behind British cities as far as integration of Sikhs. And as I feel the pressure today, the Sikhs in the U.K. from generations before us also felt the pressure to cut their hair to integrate. It is their sacrifice, along with those that chose to keep the 5Ks that have improved things for the current generation of Sikhs. I only want to make things better(easier) for the next generation.

I am not saying to drop them but rather be able to mask them. Why should I have an outward indicator of my faith. Yes, I understand that this was exactly the point of the 5Ks but today seeing a Khalsa Sikh is no quarantee that he can and will understand his/her calling. Therefore, why not stand out by your actions rather than your appearance. I think this achieves the same goal.

I realize this and when I say I would like to participate I mean from an educational perspective. I don't think that I can wake up tomorrow and start participating in the 5Ks. I mean I wish I had the time to set aside all else in my life and learn all there is to learn about Sikhi, which will include the 5Ks and many other aspects. I don't claim to know anything other than a very periferal view.

I think a Sikh was best described by Dynamic_Banda when he said all you have to do is Naam, whether by recitation, meditation or action. My answer is very short and I don't think it needs to be any more complicated. I don't think I need to participate in the 5Ks or any other ritual as long as my mind is pure. I do believe I must be on a constant charge to better myself and humanity.

For me, I can say that I rarely recite or meditate but I look at all actions I take daily, including things that are as minuscule as typing this post. I try to leave things in a better way than I found them and offer assistance to whoever needs or wants it. To leave the planet better than we found it is the purpose of my whole existence. I entered law school after selling a profitable business. If all I sought was material possessions I could have been a multi-millionaire by now. I believe law can be used to get very wealthy but it can also be used for the greater good. In that vain I joined the newly created Sikh Law Students Association at Osgoode Hall Law School and I have started an initiative to try and create a scholarship for future Sikhs that want to enter law. It is through trying to create this scholarship that the fragmentation of the Sikh community in Toronto has become most apparent. My colleague is the President of the Jewish Law Students Association, which is also raising funds to combat anti-semitism, he was able to raise $13,000 through an afternoon of phone calls. I haven't gotten a dime yet, and expect it to take me months to even get close to that amount. I would like to see our community grow spiritually as well as economically since I believe it would be a sin for us to use the money for anything other than the betterment of all.

Sorry I strayed a little but my point is that I try to lead an honest life and try to help my fellow man, which includes Sikhs.

it's true that there is a very big difference between what's goin on in the UK compared to over here. and i appreciate the differences that you're trying to make. everyone makes a difference, even when they think that they aren't. but it's possible to make differences without letting go of your religion. at the same time, the situation over here in toronto isn't as bad as you think. granted that we aren't at the same level as the brits, but we aren't exactly a new frontier anymore. lol...

haha... the point of the 5 Ks... i doubt whether any one would be able to tell you what the point of the 5 Ks is with absolute certainty. they do show what your faith may be. but in some cases, they don't even do as much, since not everyone who has chosen to adopt the "Sikh look" as drawrof has so kindly put it has the personality to match it. but tha's another topic.

as for standing out for one's actions rather than appearance, i hope that's what everyone does. but why are you attempting to make the choice for other Sikhs? if there are people out there that truly want to carry the 5 Ks, then they should be allowed to do so, right? similarly, there are people out there that don't wish to commit to the 5 Ks. like i said before, there's a choice. and people are entitled to make whichever one they wish to do so.

ur comment about wishing to have time to educate yourself on the 5 Ks doesn't really sit well with me. granted that everyone has time contstraints, the point is to make your faith a priority and make time for it instead of waiting for the time to magically appear somehow. but if you can't do that much at this point, there's nothing wrong about that either. everyone has their own limitations. and there's no real deadline for you to run against to educate yourself on Sikhi. do it on ur own pace.

that's a very general definition of what a Sikh is. but as long as we're clear on what you're definition of Sikh is, it becomes much easier to discuss the topic.

and according to your own definition, i think it's safe to say that this makes a very large part of the world Sikh. so what's the difference than between being a Sikh and just a regular human being?

[SikhWannaBe]

it's true that there is a very big difference between what's goin on in the UK compared to over here. and i appreciate the differences that you're trying to make. everyone makes a difference, even when they think that they aren't. but it's possible to make differences without letting go of your religion. at the same time, the situation over here in toronto isn't as bad as you think. granted that we aren't at the same level as the brits, but we aren't exactly a new frontier anymore. lol...

Yes, this is true but if you consider the opportunites for new Sikh immigrants in Canada, or any immigrants for that matter, the opportunities are quite grim. eg. Foriegn trained professionals are forced into manual labour positions until professional associations decide to recognize their credentials. I may have exagerated the conditions slightly but I believe the difference is still night and day when compared to the U.K.

haha... the point of the 5 Ks... i doubt whether any one would be able to tell you what the point of the 5 Ks is with absolute certainty. they do show what your faith may be. but in some cases, they don't even do as much, since not everyone who has chosen to adopt the "Sikh look" as drawrof has so kindly put it has the personality to match it. but tha's another topic.

I should have said one of the purposes of the 5Ks was to provide a distinct physical appearance.

as for standing out for one's actions rather than appearance, i hope that's what everyone does. but why are you attempting to make the choice for other Sikhs? if there are people out there that truly want to carry the 5 Ks, then they should be allowed to do so, right? similarly, there are people out there that don't wish to commit to the 5 Ks. like i said before, there's a choice. and people are entitled to make whichever one they wish to do so.

I am not an abolitionist, I was just making the point that we have an unnecessary divide between those that are Khalsa sikhs and those that are not. Yes, the Khalsa stands for something distinct but I don't believe it is something superior, it is just distinct. I want to see a more cohesive spirit as it once was.

ur comment about wishing to have time to educate yourself on the 5 Ks doesn't really sit well with me. granted that everyone has time contstraints, the point is to make your faith a priority and make time for it instead of waiting for the time to magically appear somehow. but if you can't do that much at this point, there's nothing wrong about that either. everyone has their own limitations. and there's no real deadline for you to run against to educate yourself on Sikhi. do it on ur own pace.

Sukhi, I think I could devote my whole life to trying to understand Sikhi and still not come up with a conclusion. I realize that I would grow tremendously in the process but that would only be personal growth. I am most motivated and driven towards community growth and I choose to focus my spare time in that direction at this time but I expect that I will learn oodles about Sikhi in the process.

that's a very general definition of what a Sikh is. but as long as we're clear on what you're definition of Sikh is, it becomes much easier to discuss the topic.

and according to your own definition, i think it's safe to say that this makes a very large part of the world Sikh. so what's the difference than between being a Sikh and just a regular human being?

I agree that my definition is broad but I do not agree that it captures alot of people. Maybe I have had bad experiences in my life but my interactions have resulted in my perception of the majority of the population selfish and rarely perform good actions.

I question why you would need a further distinction other? Guru Nanak as far as I now was a man that wanted to see an inclusive society, not one divided along arbitrary lines such as appearance. But once again that is just my take.

And Sukhi_V, we need you sharp mind in the organization some of us want to create, please avail us your services. I am sure that we can hammer out a constitution that you and others will applaud.

Charn Gill

[Sukhi]

Yes, this is true but if you consider the opportunites for new Sikh immigrants in Canada, or any immigrants for that matter, the opportunities are quite grim. eg. Foriegn trained professionals are forced into manual labour positions until professional associations decide to recognize their credentials. I may have exagerated the conditions slightly but I believe the difference is still night and day when compared to the U.K.

I am not an abolitionist, I was just making the point that we have an unnecessary divide between those that are Khalsa sikhs and those that are not. Yes, the Khalsa stands for something distinct but I don't believe it is something superior, it is just distinct. I want to see a more cohesive spirit as it once was.

Sukhi, I think I could devote my whole life to trying to understand Sikhi and still not come up with a conclusion. I realize that I would grow tremendously in the process but that would only be personal growth. I am most motivated and driven towards community growth and I choose to focus my spare time in that direction at this time but I expect that I will learn oodles about Sikhi in the process.

I agree that my definition is broad but I do not agree that it captures alot of people. Maybe I have had bad experiences in my life but my interactions have resulted in my perception of the majority of the population selfish and rarely perform good actions.

I question why you would need a further distinction other? Guru Nanak as far as I now was a man that wanted to see an inclusive society, not one divided along arbitrary lines such as appearance. But once again that is just my take.

And Sukhi_V, we need you sharp mind in the organization some of us want to create, please avail us your services. I am sure that we can hammer out a constitution that you and others will applaud.

Charn Gill

you haven't exaggerated. but as long as u recognize that all immigrants are treated as such, with the exception of some countries. anyone who immigrates to Canada has to deal with the fact that opportunities are seriously limited. so it isn't just limited to Sikhs or Indians or a certain ethnic group.

the Khalsa isn't superior. and anyone who tells you that it is, is totally full of it. there doesn't need to be a divide in the Sikh community. but the fact that one exists is due to differences that go further than the status of whether people are amritdhari or not.

u have no idea how glad i am to see that u finally get the point about Sikhi being deeply metaphorical. you're right. one lifetime could never be enough to delve into Sikhi. but the growth that results from it, although it is personal growth, would also help the community grow. i think we've already discussed this in other posts. but i see where ur coming from now. this isn't necessarily about Sikhi. just the community. (which is still a bit odd in my mind.) at the same time, i can't stress enough how important it is for personal growth for the community to grow. after all, we're only as strong as our weakest link... whether that be in terms of physicality, intellectual capability or spirituality. (and no, i'm not implying anything about u.)

my reason for pointing out how broad your definition is simply that it becomes difficult to identify a Sikh from someone who practices spirituality. there's a slight difference... and it's not a physical one.

as for ur offer, i'd be glad to help in any way. just dun expect me to be nice all the time. lol... (i'm kidding).

[tableji]

there are 2 types of knowledge

sianap is just knowledge, knowing things

gyan is having that knowledge and putting it into practice....

sikhism is a spiritual journey that can only be achieved if one walks the path...if u cannot experience it, how can u understand it??

Analysing each and every aspect of sikhi all day long isnt gona help you understand the reasons for each of these things....there needs to be belief, faith

ouhu vaeparavaahu atholavaa guramath keemath saar

[sexy_singh]

Im a young singh who wears 5. I have no advice to offer nor do i wish to put anyone down or argue. In this post I only wish to give my own perspective on the topic.

I wish i were disadvantaged by wearing the 5k. I wish it made me in a worser position than if i didnt wear them. Why? Because life is too bloody easy for me otherwise. I have no fight to fight - What use is the identity if i dont have to defend it? How will i be stronger if i go through unchallenged? Where are the bullys to fight? There are not to be found. How will i build my character and resolve if there is no obstacle in the way?

My kid will wear 5k and survive - i'll make sure hes physically and mentally strong. I'll support him as a father. I'll do my level best to make sure my kid doesnt lose heart. That is my dream. My kid will be a singh.

I havent always been a singh - i went through life without any problems apart from those caused by own naivety. I didnt think about deeper stuff. I had a lot of love for sikhi because i was fortunate to experience mostly positive elements of the faith. Kirtan and seva and a wonderful spiritual beacon in a gurdwara. made me fall in love with a beautiful way of living.

I would be a weak unprinciple fool if i wasnt challenged. My first challenge was with the school authorities when i decided to look like a singh and grow my hair. School policy mandated that i shave. I couldnt believe they would force such a thing on anyone. My whole social conscious was shaken awake. That made me stronger.

Instead of being a passive shell in a sea of blue blazers i was being singled out for expressing my freedom of faith. How dare they? That challenge set me on a course that would ultimately change my life. A few years later, the natural progression of taking up 5k would be my happiest moment. The best thing i've ever done.

After that, i wouldnt face any more such challenges. Without challenges, i wandered around, often depressed with life, What now? If only someone would say, hey you cant get this job because you are a singh, i would take that up as a challenge and fight for such a right. Something to fight for - where is it?

Ive changed a lot these days. Yesterday i would think a drug addict was necessarily a useless person. Today i see them, essentially as normal but with a weakness. Yesterday i'd look down on sikhs who got drunk and screwed around. Today it doesnt matter. I have my own shit to deal with. Yesterday i cared about the fate of the sikh people - they are all weak! Today, it just makes me sad because the same sikhs condscend me by calling me names like 'baba' and 'gyani' or by putting less-strict sikhs down.

I wanna be amongst those people who are so strong that they can fight anyone - the singhs in the history books whos courage had no measure and whos compassion was of complete passion. Where are they? Im sad. They told me all these stories, but they didnt bother showing me any of the heros.

[Guest]

As I saying on this other thread. Here are my thoughts:

Just general observation not against any post in specific but just general observation:

Process or Concept of keeping five kakars has to be seamless as second nature as part of body, if its not seamless it could become an hindrance in one spirituality or one can easily turn that into dogma as most often we see- many singhs/singhani who have taken amrit 10 years ago are still stuck in adjusting their life style to five kakars. I meant if one whole 10 years is spent on external rehit then generally one got lot of catching up to do - going introvert, inwards, work on our inner rehit-self reflection, withdrawing our five senses -panj birthiya from objects abiding in shabad, watching your thoughts arising, being aware of self-atma, not be attached or clinged to our thoughts.

In my personal assessment/observation, many sikhs are way too caught up in intial/external stages in dharam that they totally forgot about actual inner spiritual journey. Time should not wasted. We have very limited time on this earth. It's like student who admitted to school instead of focusing on actual studies, wrap their head around their uniforms, spent 10 years of focus around uniforms instead of actual studying syllabus/quizzes/test ..it wouldn't make sense would it?..In studies, student in school adapts its uniform as very natural seamless process second nature process to the point where not one second is spent thinking about external details as more attention is now paid towards actual syllabus, deep study quizzes, text.

Here gurbani gives beautiful great transcendental updesh to muslims who were stuck in outer sharia to raise/uplift their consciousness from shariat to higher realms, as gurbani updesh is for everyone, this applies to very such as sikhs as well:

All dharam have four layers/stages- Shariat, Tariqat, Marfat and Hakikat . Sikhi have same structure in stages (similar stages are discussed in anand karaj lavan)

At shariat layer of sikhi one takes admission to sikhi by taking amrit, by taking the physical initiation khanda batta da amrit and receiving naam amrit is quite important as it symbolizes that now student/shish/sikh has a guru/teacher in our case our guru is sri guru granth sahib ji and saints/panj pyares are guides just available for help between path of journey between you and your guru.

It's pretty common to see these days people(especially youths are spending their precious time in doubts/pondering/debating-winning arguments over policy(rehat details etc) just accept it and move on to different stages i.e - if one in marfat stage, one can transcendent on some of rituals in shariat (rehat) or one can keep them without paying any attention to them so much so not even one second or breath is spent pondering over the rituals in shariat layer because focus is actually on the adhyatam now.

Rehat maryada as it is supposed to free an individual not attach back to dogma..again nothing wrong with rehat maryada be it bibek, chalisa itself but if caution is not paid in the mindset same thing could be turned into dogma by individual.

Guru maharaj has provided his hand to them to get them out from web of trap in the first-shariat layer of sikhi by giving this vak:

All though originally updesh given to sharia panthi muslim of that time but gurbani is meant for everyone including off course sikhs,

Ang- 1083

saraa sareeath lae ka(n)maavahu ||

Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

thareekath tharak khoj ttolaavahu ||

Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.

maarafath man maarahu abadhaalaa milahu hakeekath jith fir n maraa ||3||

Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3|

[SikhKhoj]

The overemphasis of external rehat is surely stunting not only Sikhis growth but also our inner growth. The same shackles of mala, janeu, mullahs beard, prayer mat that the Gurus broke to emphasise on the inner are being repeated in our dharam in the name of Kakkars. No one is denying their importance, but without inner sidak they are of no use.

In the last 100 years we have become so extremist (in the wrong way) that we shun Sehajdharis, while historically we've always had the Khalsas and Sahejdharis. We are rewriting history and renaming people who might seem to be Sahejdhari (like Bhai Kanhaiya).

[Kuttabanda2]

Since I have no credibility maybe you can respond to the scholars below, for the record 'commander', none of us are experts meaning you have no credibililty either.

I endorse Sr. B.S. Mahalâs views expressed in his article âSikhs : A Nation Dividedâ (S.R. May 1995) that :

âThe current definition of Who is a Sikh? appears inadequate, too restrictive and perhaps outmoded. The writer feels that, in the name of communal peace and growth, consideration should be given to the idea of extending the term âSehajdhariâ, or some other terms, to embody the Monais within the Sikh fold.â

This is possible only if the term âKhalsaâ were to be interpreted in the light of the Hukumnamas issued by the Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh administered Khande-da-Amrit, replacing Charan Pahul, on the Baisakhi day in the year 1699. I quote below from Prof. Ganda Singhâs book Hukumnamas :

* Guru Hargobindâs Hukumnama : Purab di Sangat Guru da Khalsa hoe. (P. 66.)

* Guru Tegh Bahadurâs Hukumnama : Patna di Sangat Sri Guru Jida Khalsa hai. (P. 76).

* Guru Gobind Singhâs Hukumnama dated 12th march, 1699 - prior to Baisakhi day : Sarbat Sangat Machhiware ki Guru rakhega. Sangat mera Khalsa hai. (P. 153.)

This historical evidence undoubtedly means that the term âKhalsaâ included the whole Sikh Sangat (Amritdharis as well as Sehajdharis). Why should they be excluded now?

Bhai Kahan Singh in his book âSikh Ceremoniesâ referring to the Sikh community as a whole, writes :

âThe general body of the Sikh community is divided into two classes. The Sahajdhari or Civilian Sikhs and Keshdhari Singhs or the warrior Sikhs.â

In this background I make an earnest appeal to all the Sikh scholars, theologians, leaders and, especially, the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee to embrace our Sehajdhari Sikh brethren and bring them into the fold of the broad-based Khalsa Sikh Sangat as commanded by our Gurus in their Hukumnamas. They must form an integral part of the mainstream of the Sikh community.

In fact, the answer to âWho is a Sikh?" is exquisitely and meticulously laid in the following Shabad by Guru RamDas Ji :

Gur-Satgu(u) ka jo Sikh akhaye

so bhalke uth Har Naam Dhiyave

Udam kare bhalke parbhati

Isnan kare Amritsar Nhavey.

(S.G.G.S. 305)

Similarly, âWho is a Khalsa?â is defined by Guru Gobind Singh

Jagat jot jappey nis-basur, ek bina man naik na aney (33 Swayyas)

The emphasis on the basic and fundamental mandate : Hari Naam dhiyaway andJagat jot jappey must be noted.

Prof. HARMINDAR SINGH

46 Sudbury Court, Harrow

Middlesex HA1 3TD

London (UK)

If I'm not wrong, Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave Hukam to the Sikh followers of Arabia to keep Kes as well as Jap Naam, as cited in 'Siyahto Baba Nanak Shah Fakir', a primary account of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. So the Khalsa of the Guru was Kesdhari from the beginning, as the Hukam of Kes was given by Pehli Patshahi himself.

[Kuttabanda2]

The external Rehat is a Hukam from Patshahi 10, including the 5 Kakkars. However, this is only fruitful if the inner Rehat is kept, the Rehat of keeping good Charitar, Naam and Bani Abhyaas.

The Guru didn't give these Hukams for no reason, they're meant to be followed.

[SikhKhoj]

K-Banda, do you accept that historically there was a large community called Sahejdharis who did not maintain the external Khalsa Rehat but were still a part and played a huge rule in our Panth i.e. Bhai Moti Ram Mehra, Todar Mal, Bhai Kanhaiya, Diwan Mittha Mal and many more.