Offensive Picture

[Liono]

Why have this website put up such an offensive peice of art on their website ? Look at the picture it is meant to be Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Guru Gobind Singh Jee .... they got Guru Nanak Dev Jee with a tilak and topi , Then they got all these Hindu Gods surrounding Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Guru Gobind Singh Jee .... this is the type of material hindu fundamentalists distribute in Punjab as they believe that Sikhs are Hindus.... and they want to Hinduise 'Mother India'.

the caption says:

"Akali Guru Nanak Dev Ji

A Pahari painting depicting an imaginary meeting between Akali Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Akali Nihang

Guru Gobind Singh Ji (bottom right and left), flanked by Ganesh (bottom left), Brahma and Saraswati (top left),

Vishnu and Lakhsmi (top centre), Shiva and Parvati (top right), and Durga (bottom right), Pahari late 19th century"

Imaginary or not this is offensive

[opensikh]

Please Read Bhai Gurdas Di Vara the key to Guru Granth Sahib, and you will see that Baba Bhudda Ji applied tilak to the first 5 Guru's on passing of the gur-gaddhi. It is when Guru Hargobind Singh ji arose after the death of his father on the taathi tavhi (hotplate) the swords and adoned the martial turban.

Look at ancient hand written granths and you will see numerous pictures of devi devteh, this doesn't mean that sikhs are hindus if your scared of that terminology it simply shows that Gurbani has all the great saints of the past within. Look at Guru Granth Sahib, count the amounts of Hindu/Muslim bhagats with the bani were included by Guru Sahib's?

Makes you think !

Read the original nitnem and you will find the lines "Nanak Guru Gobind Singh puran Avtar" ie: Guru Nanak/Guru Gobind Singh are the utmost Avatars/Saints/Gurus

If you talk to spritual nihungs, they will tell you that when the Khalsa was being formed the Devi-Devteh, all came to give their gifts (the 5 k's) to Guru Gobind Singh.

I will post them once I have recaped my information, so that I do not make any mistakes.

btw: I am secure about my sikhi I suggest my dear brothers, instead of jumping the gun and going mad like one used to read and become learned and have a little faith and take yourselves back 500 years in india, and the puzzle will begin to fall into place.

[Liono]

Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Jee said:

Jab lag Khalsa rahe niara; tab lag tej dion mein sara.

Jab eh gahe bipran ki reet; mein na karoun inki parteet.

"So long as the Khalsa remains distinct and different,

I shall give my whole-hearted strength to him,

But when he begins to behave like a Brahmin

I shall not stand by him."

(bhul chuk maaf karna Jee)

Funny enough I am secure about my Sikhi aswell..... but the VHP / RSS are not..... Hindu Fundametalists became insecure as our Guru's spoke and acted upon The Truth. Guru Nanak Dev Jee spoke up against the false rituals and practices, like not putting on the Janeou when Guru Jee was young.

Sikhi is being attacked from all angles ..... people are trying to bring back Hindu practices and beliefs back into Sikhi i.e. like caste (they are winning in this case)

The Hindu Fundamentalist are trying to Hinduise India. There is a constant attack on the Sikh faith with assimilation into hinduism. All there groups have literature, talks saying that Sikhs are Hindus ..... are you choosing to be ignorant to this ?

This depiction is an insult because there is no doubt that this is one of the tools to make people think Sikhi is part of Hinduism .... This picture is depicting Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaaj as a hindu ...... RSS/VHP are putting posters that have this messages on them. Justifying pictures like this ...... here is another example... i guess you will find a way of justifying this aswell.... :roll:

[Guest Javanmard]

The ancient Sikh sources clearly speak of Guru Nanak wearing topi, tilak and qalandar dress. Stop projecting petty political debates on ancient SIkh history.

[Guest Javanmard]

so you accept dasam bani?

[Liono]

hoie isK isr topI DrY ] swq jnm kuStI huie mrY ]

hoe sikh sir ttopee dhharai || saath janam kushattee hue marai ||

He who as a Sikh places a hat on their head; will be reborn seven times as a leper.

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee

(obviously you have higher Sikh sources than Bhai Nand Lal Jee......... and you see old history books as the truth.... :| )

[Guest Javanmard]

At the time the Pahari painting was made there was no such thing as RSS or VHP let alone a unified 'HIndu' identity. In fact there was no such homogenous identity as Hinduism. The picture shows the panacadevata of the Smarta tradition which are mentioned in Japuji Sahib.

No doubt RSS and VHP try to Hinduise India but they'll never be able to because:

a. there is no Hindu unity

b. more Muslims in India than Pakistan: INDIA IS NOT A HINDU COUNTRY

Also on a more artistic note:

You can't compare Pahari art to RSS propaganda!!!

[Liono]

. Stop projecting petty political debates on ancient SIkh history.

RSS / VHP attack on Sikhs and other minorities is not petty... it probably is to you .... but that is your problem

[Guest Javanmard]

It isn't petty to me at all otherwise I would not write against the concept of Hinduism.

You can stop your personal attacks right there by the way. Who are you to say that it is petty to me!!! You are talking about modern realities and concepts and project them on 17th and 18th century artistic representations of the Gurus: there is just a problem with your methology and your reference to sources.

[Liono]

It isn't petty to me at all otherwise I would not write against the concept of Hinduism.

You can stop your personal attacks right there by the way. Who are you to say that it is petty to me!!!

You are the one who said it was petty. Please read your previous post.

This representation be it 16th/17th or 18th century is offensive. Please do not justify it by means of it being a historical piece. It is depicting Guru Nanak Dev Jee as hindu ....... lets not go round circles please .....

Q. Do you find any pictures that depict Guru Nanak Dev Jee as part of hinduism offensive?

[drawrof]

liono,

your astuteness should be commended as it is sikhs such as yourself who will keep the ignorant masses from unknowingly recessing into mundane nothingness.

Where I do disagree is the approach. We, as a community, have hardships but we never have accepted victimization. Sanyaas for us is done actively in our grist...so we don't cower away from the world. Our "chardeekallah" ethos resonates with kirat karna....which I interpret as "be proactive".

Artistically we can't ban something because we don't understand the ideology. If you look at early the early sateeks of guru granth sahib ji, it was ladened with metaphors of gods worshipping guru nanak.....(think of the beauty, think of the outreach, think of the inclusiveness). I am not sure when brahma, krishna, or shiva were born...but we all know that the world knows of guru nanak and people were around to see him.

These days RSS have this Sh!t paintings, and can't agree on anything except economically mobilizing all of india under one fascist banner and...."don't kill cows". My question is, why don't we do the same? why can't we take pictures and have everyone showing due reverence to guru nanak....it certainly worked in raising the eminence of sikhi in earlier centuries.

Further, to much distaste, sikhi is falling into the same Lowest common denominator mode of religion that hinduism is.

1) we chose to play victim...when we are just lazy and don't actively do prachar (great sikhs like jarnail singh bhindrawala and gurbachan singh bhindrawala brought many into the sikh fold). On that note, our prachar is becoming very exclusive....I am amritdhari, but I am against "Pressing" it upon others. If l live my life like a gursikh, then with guruji's grace others maybe inspired too.

2) we worry more about rehits and kurehits than we do about waheguru. (note: I have heard "rehit pyaree mujhko, sikh pyaara nahi"....many many times, and that one line does not justify a complete paradigm! if I am wrong, In due time, my ignorance will be removed). I believe that discovering rehit and tradition from a historical and heritage perspective is enriching because we bring life to things in doing so. These days, people just like the idea of complicating SARGUN....when getting to nirgun is the complicated part......

I don't know about anyone else's understanding, but to use a dichotomous example, I believe that nirankar became nirgun and from that sargun emmanated....this is hukam....our bit is to move from sargun back into nirgun....by bringing god into empty rituals, by bringing god into anything and everything remotely related to sikhi...we are adopting a very dangerous and potentially elitist mindset. I can argue that we are not under "hukam" in doing that...or at least in attempting to try that. This type of idiocy can be seen these days in ideological differences, a day will come where People will say stuff like "my pagh material has more god than that "manmukhs" suit".....(I know my example is far fetched, but you do see stuff like this happening).

We are looking for god manifested in the tangible moreso than communally (at a global level) in people's hearts.

3) mcleod said sikhism is a "syncretic" religion...combing hinduism and islam...his point being that we are not unique. Well, I have a solution! lets not play into anything (As our appearance makes us unique...you can't hide from that), and start making inroads into the world around us. Let us all strive to be active members of our communities so we bring guru nanak's seva-bhaav into humanity at large; sure, we may be an eon away from getting good media press, but if we start living sikhi (getting in touch with our primal source, and letting that source guide us through or various modalities to cultivate positive impressions....in people's hearts)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

[Liono]

If you talk to spritual nihungs, they will tell you that when the Khalsa was being formed the Devi-Devteh, all came to give their gifts (the 5 k's) to Guru Gobind Singh.

:shock: :shock: lol.... just been watching Tabay Roas Jageo Video - Documentry on RSS downloaded from :

http://www.khalsaalliance.org/

(about 55 minutes into video)

(Please watch and Can somebody post the translation in english)

and he is talking about this.....

If you talk to spritual nihungs, they will tell you that when the Khalsa was being formed the Devi-Devteh, all came to give their gifts (the 5 k's) to Guru Gobind Singh.

this is actually from a RSS propaganda booklet written in Hindi called "Sangat Sandesh" and in it describes the amrit sanchaar and says that Guru Gobind Singh had devi-devteh .... he explains what kalyug this booklet is saying .... it goes through all the Amrit Sanchaar and Kakkars and what this booklet says for example Hanumaan was meant to give his own Kashera .... and a Giani Sahib (I think Bhai Sahib Bhai Dit Singh) says that a Brahmin said to him this once and Giani Dit Singh replied "How many Keshera did Hanumaan have ?" , the Brahmin replied "He had 1 Keshera, that Ram gave him" Giani Dit Singh "He was Behsharam, he gave his Keshera to Guru Jee and walked away naked ?" lol..

also

A Sikh kid asked him about Amrit and said that her class teacher told her that the Keshera she was wearing was blessed from hanumaan.... he was about to reply to this ....but before he could ... another Sikh kid put his hand up and asked to reply to this... he said your welcome... she said something like "I had a teacher who said this to me aswell ..... and I replied if your hanumaan wore a keshera then why are you not wearing one .....also everyone knows that hanumaan is a monkey .... then there must of been a hole in the back of the Keshera for his tail ... after that the teacher never said anything to her about this again"

This Sangat Sandesh booklet also says before giving Amrit that Guru Gobind Singh Jee called three Brahmins and then washed their feet and drank that as charan amrit. After that Guru Gobind Singh called chandi devi and said that we cannot shave in battle as there is no time in battle so we let us keep kes.

Sorry if i didnt explain clearly....Just watch the video

[Black Goddess]

very inspiring post drawrof jee, I also figured out what ur name is..lol, sigh.

[Guest]

very inspiring post drawrof jee, I also figured out what ur name is..lol, sigh.

you owe him an "whip" via pm...

[Liono]

Nitnem Steek, Damdami Taksal, Rehraas Sahib Steek, Page 319:

Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj

"Me Na Ganeseh Pritham Mnaaoun

Kisan Bisan Kabhoon Neh Dhiaaoun"

SatGuru Guru Gobind Singh Jee says

"That in any thing that I do before I start I do not believe (manounda) in Ganesh, because sanatan dharam people, first of all they write "Ganesh Num:" Also I never meditate/pray to devta Vishnu and their Avtar Krishan. "

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna Jee

[Bruce Lung]

Liono who said that Guru Gobind Singh believed in ganesh? The ancient painting shows him with his back to ganesh. isn't that in line with your own beliefs, in which case what are you complaining about?

[Liono]

:shock: :shock: lol.... just been watching Tabay Roas Jageo Video - Documentry on RSS downloaded from :

http://www.khalsaalliance.org/

(about 55 minutes into video)

(Please watch and Can somebody post the translation in english)

and he is talking about this.....

this is actually from a RSS propaganda booklet written in Hindi called "Sangat Sandesh" and in it describes the amrit sanchaar and says that Guru Gobind Singh had devi-devteh .... he explains what kalyug this booklet is saying .... it goes through all the Amrit Sanchaar and Kakkars and what this booklet says for example Hanumaan was meant to give his own Kashera .... and a Giani Sahib (I think Bhai Sahib Bhai Dit Singh) says that a Brahmin said to him this once and Giani Dit Singh replied "How many Keshera did Hanumaan have ?" , the Brahmin replied "He had 1 Keshera, that Ram gave him" Giani Dit Singh "He was Behsharam, he gave his Keshera to Guru Jee and walked away naked ?" lol..

also

A Sikh kid asked him about Amrit and said that her class teacher told her that the Keshera she was wearing was blessed from hanumaan.... he was about to reply to this ....but before he could ... another Sikh kid put his hand up and asked to reply to this... he said your welcome... she said something like "I had a teacher who said this to me aswell ..... and I replied if your hanumaan wore a keshera then why are you not wearing one .....also everyone knows that hanumaan is a monkey .... then there must of been a hole in the back of the Keshera for his tail ... after that the teacher never said anything to her about this again"

This Sangat Sandesh booklet also says before giving Amrit that Guru Gobind Singh Jee called three Brahmins and then washed their feet and drank that as charan amrit. After that Guru Gobind Singh called chandi devi and said that we cannot shave in battle as there is no time in battle so we let us keep kes.

Sorry if i didnt explain clearly....Just watch the video

What I am complaining about..... ummm nothing really just making aware of stuff like this, especially the young influential ones, who come onto these forums and read posts like above "If you talk to spritual nihungs, they will tell you ......" which is just pure RSS propaganda going down ...

[drawrof]

liono,

your intentions are not full of malice, hence I suggest this..lets change the paradigm. Let us show the world that what they are worshipping, we are the epitome of....

one of the sampardayee uthanka (context) of anand sahib state that GANESH came to guru amardas ji's darbar and wanted him to instal a statue of himself so that he could be worshipped. Guru Amardasji turned around and said, die and take birth in my house as my grandson. Guru Amardasji CLEARLY made the point to ganesh that his dharamsala's worship AKAAL and ONLY AKAAL (you can say waheguru, niranjan, allah)...all are attributes of the formless.

So here's the strategy....when you see an old picture or messed up logic which is not correct, turn it around and say...look your gods are worshipping guru nanak...as guru nanak is believed to be gur-avtar (according to nirmala traditions)...and that is much more eminent than any other appelation given to any other type of avtar.

my advice to the cyber sangat is this.... correct people where they may be misinformed, but let it be more from sound knowledge and less from emotion.

I'll give an example that happened to me yesterday:

I am still in university and tie a "different" style dastar. It is a siddhi dastar and resembles the dastaars worn by kings and sikhs in the early 1800's..(easier on my ears). Now, the gentleman who attends the parking lot is an african man. He said "salaam waalay kum"... I had a slightly shocked look on my face, but I did reply back with "waalay kum salaam" (thinking that I don't want to hurt his sentiment); he said "you're not muslim?"..and then he said "your sikh". I smiled. He said Namaste!, I smiled and said.. actually its "sat sri akaal" (I was contemplating whether I should say fateh, but thought..he is probably more accustomed to hearing that). He gladly repeated it, 2 times ...and he was smiling.

Now, I learned that he was ethiopian and that it was the only country not conquered by the british. he said "sikhs were in army, they came and settled". I said "yes, that is definitely true". We started discussing colonialism and his friend said "white man come, teach us, we better". I said, "yes, but you have been programmed to believe that you are a lesser human and gladly forfeit your traditions to be more acceptable to them". our guru's said shower/bathe daily 400 years before the uk and north america adopted daily baths...Due respect is given to the british for actually perserving and archiving history, and, in all honesty, kudo's for them taking over half the world....everyone seems to fallen slaves to them in the process..now it is our part to get the imperialist mindset out of our minds

[challenge_everything]

U know wot liono you couldnt even respond to what drawrof wrote - it was pretty pathetic that you only picked at one point.

I do agree that we should be aware of where our Guru's are depicted of doing devi devta pooja.

But in the Pahari paintings of old the devi devtas are offering thier respects to the Guru Sahibs.

[Liono]

I know I couldnt repond because my knowledge is 'pathetic', BUT the point about RSS propaganda being spread is valid.

Maybe he should apologise for saying such a thing which was taken from a RSS booklet, that says blasphemous lies about Guru Jee and the Amrit Ceremony.

They seem to use Nihang this , Nihang that ..... but all they are doing is using a samprada that hasn't got much of a voice as a medium to spread lies and deceit about the Sikh religion. Be that through a historical context or through a mythical context i.e. "If you talk to spritiual Nihangs...."

Challenge_Everything are you sponsored by EA Sports [/font:55b362c321]BTW .... lol)

[challenge_everything]

Maybe the rss took it from a sikh booklet?

[Liono]

I think some people love to put doubts in other peoples minds...... :roll:

Yeah i am sure that hanumaan took his keshera over and gave it to Guru Jee .... :wink:

As I said earlier watch the video off:

http://www.khalsaalliance.org

or

http://tv.waheguroo.com/?cat=5

I am sure even the most learned of you will have something to learn off this Bhai Sahib.

Drawrof thanks for the reply.....

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Liono JI

Das was a member of RSS and still a member of Bajrang Dal.You must not be afraid of them.

Best way for you to give up Hinduism for ever is to kill a cow and if possilbe eat beef.Das eats beef a lot so you can not call him an intruder from hinduism who is trying to dilute Gurmat.

Gurmat or Sikh Panth is Sanatan and was and is and will be forever.Since cration all were Sikhs.Brahma,Vishnu nad Mahesh all were ifrst three Sikhs of Akal.Hinduism is only 160 years old and hindutva about 80 years.

From Sikhism only Hindus or thier sects are made.There is no need to be afraid if we have faith in our God Akal.

At one place Guru even Said Sikh must not read Areibic and Farsi and should not serve Turk.So it was told to not to serve Turk by reading Arebic and Farsi and Guru had not prevented us from reading these languages as Gurbani is writtan in these languages.

Likewise Cap matter.Sikh even wore Cap during Tenth master(Panth Prakash By Rattan Singh ) But Guru wanted to make them fighter so removed Cap of Saints and put Turban of Warirer.So Sikhs getting death of lepur is thgere when as a servitude to Turk we wear topi and be pessimestic.what about those Sikhs in Air force who wear headgears to flay or Sikhs who wear ncb equipments.They are Part of Fighting dress.And in that way they are not forbbiddan.In Fact both Sukh Singh Ji and Charat Singh Ji(Grand Father of Ranjit Singh) did wore helmet of iron and iron dress they looted from gilzai Pathans and used the same to attack them(Panth Prakash by bhangu).So other head Gear as combat gear can be worn and Turban was made to worn us as it is also a Comabat Gear.

Then coming to Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara Tab Lag Teej Diyo Mein Sara

Jab Eh Gahee Vipran Ki Reet Main Na Karoon Inki Parteet.

This is not in Sarbloh Granth from Baba Santa Singh Ji.

But it is in Sau Sakhi and first line is even in Suraj Prakash Granth(latter is more based on formal).

Das will try to tell you that study yourself and preferably go to Chowk Mehata or see if we have any one in Canada who is an affiliate to Damdami Taksal chowk Mehata and they will teach you a good level of knowledge.Many Niuhngs,Udasis,Nirmalas,Seva Panthis among others and even non Sikhs also have been guided by Taksal.There were two Taksals but later they seem to be merged so Damdami Taksal is not Fifth Samprada but Fourth and Fifth Samprada Taken togather.

And if you need to gain knowledge and you are from AKJ then for few days stop thinking as many AKJ people think and with open mind learn from Taksal.AKJ are not wrong but are even knowledgeable in many fields better then Das yet in some field they need to learn a good lot.And Taksal can help them.Rember that AKJ are only small part of Panth and not the whole Panth and be it any order we must not see other fellow Sikhs as lower to us.

Then Das is again saying that Das respect AKJ but can not say that they are 100% right.Especaily regarding Dasham Granth or RagMala issue or concept of sin and chasity or as Talwara Sahib worte that killing is not allowed in us.Well in AKJ also there are various views and Das is happy to say that Das knows many great Sikhs who are like brother to him and are higher them him and have good knowldge but AKJ must keep an eye on those who are wrong yet try to pose as knowlegdeable and misguide.

So those people have even guided Das in many occaision.Das can say that AKJ is heart of Panth but Body needs other organs also.Taksal is brain.

So it is Fifteenth Sakhi and as in there it is the prophesy which Guru are saying and not what many akj people think as anti Brahmin as Guru did not hate Brahmins at all.

Jan Lag Rahat Khalsa Nyara.

Tan Lag Tej Dio Muhi Sara.

Mohi Paas Nari Sut Bandhiye.

Gayin Hankat Yug Ghar Landhiyee.

........

and it goes on.

Here Guru tells that till Khalsa is Dethached or seprated(from mammon) till then Akal gives all power which were in Guru to Khalsa but at one Khalsa will be traped in nose of attachement of wife ,son

And thier gos or sense wil make them to move or they will loose the self control.....

And further more a Good lot of things are writtan.Guru tells us to stay away from worldly things greed and not to hate Brahmins as such rather make them Sikh like Prof .Sahib Singh Ji.Baba Gurbax Singh Ji(Father of Kesar Singh of Banswali Nammah and second Jathedar of Damdami Taksal).

then it is given

Meelai Khalsa apan foot.

Nar Nari Ghar Sagre toot.Sastar Chhod Vipran Ki rees.

Tan Bidhi Banaisa Aite tees.

.....

and further more Guru tells of good futre after dark night.

Here Guru is telling a sort of divisions between Khalsa.Fight of Husbands and wife in futre and divore(at Gurus time it was not there).Then Khalsa will leave the weapons and will copy Brahmins (like not eating meat,Eating only in iron bowl or other rituals which are actualy copying of Brahimns or instead of worshipping Akal ,Worshipping Guru as a personality etc).

To them(Khalsa's this will be made(happened this) way (and) at such extent.

So many thing which we see todAY were seen by Guru more then 300 years ago.Das respect the views of AKJ but may not agree to ritualism as Gurmat is for Bhakti(devotion) and knowelgde(Gyan) while ritualism increase our ego which will fail us in spritual persuits.Akal Bless and sorry ofr writing wrong.

[unbreakable]

..