is religion pointless?

[sexy_singh]

nothing, even religion can make a bad person good,

good ppl are already good, what can religion do for them? make them a little better? (In reality is this even true?)

who 'really' needs help, the good or the bad?

.... religion is not a solution!

[Guest]

nothing, even religion can make a bad person good,

good ppl are already good, what can religion do for them? make them a little better? (In reality is this even true?)

who 'really' needs help, the good or the bad?

.... religion is not a solution!

Dharam is pauri(ladder) to do righteousness.

what you mean religion is not a solution? care to expand little more?

Sikhi is dharam not religion... it's enternal (ad sach, jaguad sach, hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach).

[sexy_singh]

neo, if i do horrible things to ppl, .. then turn to you, and ask, "can religion make me a good person?" what would your answer be?

i know in some lesser faiths all you have to do is go talk to a priest and its all good- clean slate- ur good but thats crap.

how can religion help me as a bad person? it simply cant. because religion is obessed with good vs bad. and what do you know, it cant help a bad person be good, so religion does absolutely nothing for me.

so what good is religion, to help good ppl get better? and thats supposed to impress me or something?

if someone comes along with a new thing that makes bill gates even more richer am i supposed to clap?

[Guest]

neo, if i do horrible things to ppl, .. then turn to you, and ask, "can religion make me a good person?" what would your answer be?

i know in some lesser faiths all you have to do is go talk to a priest and its all good- clean slate- ur good but thats crap.

how can religion help me as a bad person? it simply cant. because religion is obessed with good vs bad. and what do you know, it cant help a bad person be good, so religion does absolutely nothing for me.

so what good is religion, to help good ppl get better? and thats supposed to impress me or something?

if someone comes along with a new thing that makes bill gates even more richer am i supposed to clap?

Religion is about expereincing god in you..forget about good or bad and all that karma crap.

Sikhi has deep rooted spirituality - take a payala of naam then all you could is smileeeeeeeeeeeeeeee when someone ask you, how religion has changed ya??

In your course of fighting fanatics in religion you are brushing aside or ignoring mystic/spiritual traditions of sikhi which i don't think it's good idea.

[unbreakable]

..

[sexy_singh]

neo, to be perfectly honest, i have such an admiration for sikhi in the terms you talk about.. i cant describe that here. i dont even care so much about the fanatics right now, im being selfish and concentrating on myself.

i dont think sikhi is for me though. as a bad person, i cant touch sikhi without feeling guilty, cuz im a bad person and why should i have access to something so beautiful and perfect?

sikh cares about good or bad.

im bad.

see my problem?

[unbreakable]

..

[sexy_singh]

dear unbreakable, please try harder at understanding me before coming out with stuff like that. come on, im not stupid, i know all of that.. no offense

*edit* sorry veer, i dont expect you or anyone else to sooth my mind. after all im at odds with myself, it is *i* who is the problem

[sexy_singh]

but just to reply. how am i supposed to be at peace at myself? im a horrible person

[Guest]

neo, to be perfectly honest, i have such an admiration for sikhi in the terms you talk about.. i cant describe that here. i dont even care so much about the fanatics right now, im being selfish and concentrating on myself.

i dont think sikhi is for me though. as a bad person, i cant touch sikhi without feeling guilty, cuz im a bad person and why should i have access to something so beautiful and perfect?

sikh cares about good or bad.

im bad.

see my problem?

singh you think you are worse than sajan thug, kaouda rakash(demon) ?? if they can change by Siri Guru Nanak dev ji..what makes you think change cannot come in your life?? why ?

Just keep praying one day it will come to you....without his hakum(will) not one LEAF can move.

Here is something that i think you would like:

Self Percept (Atam Updesh)

Why are you so engrossed in worries? Why are you afraid of some one? Who may kill you? The soul is immortal; it neither dies nor takes birth.

The present is here and now, the past is irrecoverable and the future will be good. Don't fret over the past and don't be worried about the future. The present is going on.

Why do you cry? What did you lose? When you were born, what did you bring along, which has been lost? What did you produce which has been perished? It is here that you gained and it is here that you lose. The man comes to; and goes from world, empty handed.

What you own today was not yours yesterday and will not be yours tomorrow. It does not and will not belong to anyone. You consider it your own and rejoice. This happiness of possession leads you to utter grief.

Yours is this world. Start from where you feel to; stay where you desire and wind up where you want to. It has no beginning and no end. You don't fear anyone, but yourself. You are the fright and also the frightened.

Change is the truth of life. What you consider as death is life in reality. In a moment a multi-millionaire is turned pauper. Give up the feeling of possession, great & the mean; differentiation of friend & foe. Then all is yours and you for everyone. Your corporeal being is a product of air, water and fire and it merges into the same leaving behind neither blood nor bones. Still yours existence remains the same. Then ponder over what you are.

Wake up! and become the eternal sons of the Almighty. You are the great and unique manifestation of Nature's power. All the divine powers are possessed by you, like a tree hidden in the seed.

In fact you don't fear anybody; you don't have any worry, suspicion, pain or grief. You are His dear ones. Surrender yourself completely to Him.

Always, remember the "Waheguru" (God) to achieve salvation. Let your life be guided by the saying "Whatever God wills, is good". Be content with the will of God. Remember Him both in pleasure & pain

[sexy_singh]

neo, im glad you brought up sajan. yes he was bad, and then he met guruji and then his life changed.

if guruji allowed to him to be a sikh, then he was very lucky. much luckier than me. he probably lived the rest of his life as a devout, sincere man. did he forget about his past? do you think that didnt pain him?

whos going to allow me to be a sikh?

sajjan was the luckiest man to have ever lived. he was probably the only bad guy to get forgiven.

this is a very very very special case. it doesnt happen otherwise.

what we are to learn from the sajjan story is that our gurus were truly amazing. that they could forgive and see the good in even the lowest of thugs.

that speaks volumes about them.

it doesnt mean a bad person can be good however. nothin can make a bad person good. nothing.

[Guest]

whos going to allow me to be a sikh?

you and your love only !

Forget about rest of us..forget about us...just remember him(akaal purkh) himself, forget about rituals.. forget about everything......forget about this duniya(world) ..this world is jhota...in guru's time...somebody said - guru ji bhot..somebody said batala...but he didn't care...his sikhs shouldn't either...

close your eyes- say his name whatever you wish with your breath in and out...you will get peace of mind...but when you get it fully you sure you can handle it??????????

As pheena once bought up an interesting point-

we ask for his blessing/his love/kirpa/grace...do we even have a capacity to handle his love?? dekh la singh...you might go pagal in his love...so as guru's advised- follow sehaj(pateince/contenment marg) built up capacity to hold his graceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

[sexy_singh]

neo, myself hates me.

religion cant help me. it doesnt want to help me, it cant help me.

lol maybe waheguru can help me tho.

u see my point tho? if u go read scriptures its so much about good or bad. the best it can do is make u aware that u've done wrong and that life is supposed to have a 'higher purpose' .. so you know, and now ur cursed to spending ur life knowing ur unworthy of this awesome way of living.

[sexy_singh]

... it really is just a game for the good ..

[unbreakable]

..

[sexy_singh]

"ps. not being cold hearted of anything, but thats just the way it is. but i'm trying."

nice. sikhi can help you recognise those mistakes you've made. this is in a way, the truth. it gives you the truth. no one said the truth was supposed to be sweet.

good ppl have it so much easier. they get the truth and they are happy just enjoying being religious. lucky bastards.

bad ppl have to suffer the tortorous pangs of regret in their past when shown the truth.

this thread has been helpful. thanks breaky and neo

[unbreakable]

..

[ghost]

this is a gd question!

i think to an extent everything is pointless... if a book is sitting on a shelf it's pointless (unless its holding up the shelf)...

if u dont use or practice religion it becomes pointless... the thing is i reckon that our "way of life" is quite simple.. all u gotta do is live it!

[CK]

Sexy,

None of us are perfect.

But if you are "bad" - if things about you are not going the way you want...don't abandon your Sikhi, cling to it! Your Sikhi is the one thing that can never, ever be taken away from you - unless you purposefully throw it away.

Everybody has regrets. Everyone makes mistakes. Waheguruji is the only ones that knows how difficult our challenges are, HE only knows what we have truly faced...and despite the wrongs that all of us do, HE loves us anyway. That's powerful love. If you break your connection to Waheguruji, you lose out on that love!

Our Gurus gave us a way to live life that helps minimize pain. When pain does occur - be it from a present mistake or a past one - our gurus gave us tools to help heal. Simran...sangat...seva...very, very powerful tools. But these tools only work when one believes in them!

Before I found Sikhi, taking a shower and washing my hair in the morning was simply a pleasant daily routine.

But now...I step out of the shower in the morning and run my kanga through my clean kesh...watching it fall around me...I can't help but thinking that I am part of the coolest religion in the world. I just want to toss my head back and yell thanks to God that he brought me on this path.

I've been a bad person myself, and made many mistakes. But Waheguruji has helped me break the cycle of repeating some of them. I know that regardless of how crappy my day was, or how many other things in my life are not going well - I know that I AM someone. I am a Sikh. I'm part of a Sangat that includes people like you and NEO. I'm a Kaur. I'm a warrior princess.

So as a warrior...

I choose to fight the battles of life with all my strength. I will only bow down in submission to God.

instead of choosing to fight God with all my strength and ultimately bowing in submission to the battles of life.

Waheguruji is a powerful friend, SexySingh!

[mloco]

"ps. not being cold hearted of anything, but thats just the way it is. but i'm trying."

nice. sikhi can help you recognise those mistakes you've made. this is in a way, the truth. it gives you the truth. no one said the truth was supposed to be sweet.

good ppl have it so much easier. they get the truth and they are happy just enjoying being religious. lucky bastards.

bad ppl have to suffer the tortorous pangs of regret in their past when shown the truth.

this thread has been helpful. thanks breaky and neo

you gotta realise that truly 'good' people had to do a heck of a lot of work to get where they are. Learn from your mistakes whenever you see them, learn to recognise the truth and bite your tongue when you want to snap at someone for pointing it out. The regret you talk of shows that you care and are in fact good at heart, the fact that you were shown the truth shows that someone else cares too...

its not an easy road.

'Hum maile, mainoo uj'l kardho'

PS 'bad' people being forgiven is not as rare as you think...Ive heard so so many stories. The main thing is to have heart, which you've shown yourself to have already in your posts.

[Pheena]

neo, im glad you brought up sajan. yes he was bad, and then he met guruji and then his life changed.

if guruji allowed to him to be a sikh, then he was very lucky. much luckier than me. he probably lived the rest of his life as a devout, sincere man. did he forget about his past? do you think that didnt pain him?

whos going to allow me to be a sikh?

sajjan was the luckiest man to have ever lived. he was probably the only bad guy to get forgiven.

this is a very very very special case. it doesnt happen otherwise.

what we are to learn from the sajjan story is that our gurus were truly amazing. that they could forgive and see the good in even the lowest of thugs.

that speaks volumes about them.

it doesnt mean a bad person can be good however. nothin can make a bad person good. nothing.

" HE AND ONLY HE IS THE TRUE LORD. HE IS TRUTH -- SATNAM.

HE IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE. THOUGH ALL VANISH HIS REALITY WILL NEVER LEAVE.

HE CREATED MAYA -- THINGS OF VARIOUS COLORS AND EMOTIONS AND DISPOSITIONS.

HE CREATES ALL THINGS AND WATCHING OVER THEM, HE ALSO GIVES THEM GREATNESS.

What a wonderful thing Nanak has said. He says God makes the creation, and having made it, He looks at it, just as a painter paints a picture, then steps back a little to view his work. He observes it closely, he steps to the right and looks, steps to the left and looks again. Then he views it from a distance, then he takes it up to the window to scrutinize it in the light and in shadow. He examines it in a thousand ways, as does a sculptor.

HE CREATES ALL THINGS AND WATCHING OVER THEM, HE ALSO GIVES THEM GREATNESS.

Thus He gives prominence and importance to His creation. So God is not against samsara or else why should He create it? Nor is he maya's enemy, or why should He bother with it? So the difficulty encountered by logic had no ground with the devotee. Nanak says not only does He create but He admires His creation and looks at it exultantly, thus giving it honor and importance. Remember, God has created you and having created you he has examined you from all sides, and He is still looking at you constantly as a part of His own handiwork, giving you dignity and importance; and on its own all sin will fade away from your life. If you remember this you will move about as a creation of His. You will speak and hear, fully conscious of the fact that you are His creation. In all your dealings you will be conscious of the fact that you are His and He is looking after you all the time. He watches over you constantly. He provides you with comfort and care. He looks at you lovingly, again and again. He never tires of looking at you. He is pleased with you for it is He who has made you. He is neither disappointed nor disheartened by your ways or else He could destroy you so easily. No matter how bad and sinful you become, His flame of hope for you never burns out. No matter how far you wander away from Him, no matter how completely you forget Him and turn your back on Him, His loving gaze is still fixed on you. For He knows that if not today, tomorrow you are sure to return. Sooner or later the prodigal must return, his coming back is certain, for the further you go away from Him the more unhappy you will become, like a little child who has run away from home.

A little child, barely four years old, ran away from home. He took a small bundle of clothes and set out. A policeman found him going back and forth along the side of the road a number of times. He approached him, thinking he needed help, and asked, "Where do you want to go? Where have you come from?"

The child said, "I have run away from home but Mother always said not to cross the road, but to stay on this side. Now I don't know what to do, since I can't cross over."

How far can a small child stray? Even if he does, Mommy has always set a limit and how can he disobey her?

How far will you wander from God? Even if you are angry with Him for some reason, you will keep shuttling between home and the road crossing. How far can you go and where will you go? Wherever you roam it is within His boundaries. Wherever you are will be within Him. Your anger is the anger of a little child; it is nothing but a part of love. He is never displeased by your displeasure.

Nanak says: He gives you importance and glorified you. What He has created He surveys, and He likes what He surveys. "