Need a guru???

[samosasingh]

I was listening to suleman the ghost tape. Suleman says that we need a guru "moorshad". Does he mean that we need a sant or does it mean that we should amrit and become of guru granth sahib. Does he a physicall guru that can guide us step by step.

Totally confused

[Guest]

Veer its a deep concept and i know loads here would disagree with me...

But inorder to meet god you have to find someone who already met god...that someone is ur murshad(saint,bhramgyani, mahapursh) to show you the way from guru granth sahib ji!!!!!!!!!!!!!

murshad simply means saint/ bhramgyani/mahapursh

[Guest]

Lets look at this from totally manmukh point of view,

Being manmukh as we are all are (stage of becoming gurmukh)

you have to rely on someone in this spirtual path.. for example- are you guys rely on "ragis" /katha jatha/ english translators, translations...

Take amrit as a spirtual school and there you have "Mahan Guru granth sahib ji" which we are soo fool to even understand.. we need someone who already knows guru granth sahib ji and met with guru ji to show us the way for salvation...

thats why sukhmani sahib has loads of verses of seekin an refuge under mahapursh/bhramgyani/sadhu/sant .. marshuaad...

[samosasingh]

Does that mean if we are amritdhari, then we are nigura, according to that philosophy. What does it mean to take on a murshad? Does it mean to abide by what they tell you, in which case we could just read about there lives, and do what they said to do. Somehow this reduces my understanding/faith in GGS, if we cannot succed wothout a murshad. I always thought that was the beauty in sikhi, no need for a middle man.But I do understand your point that we need someone to guide us. LET me know your thought on these questions. Do you have a murshad?

[Guest]

Does that mean if we are amritdhari, then we are nigura, according to that philosophy. What does it mean to take on a murshad? Does it mean to abide by what they tell you, in which case we could just read about there lives, and do what they said to do.

First of all veer.. Murshad(bhramgyani) will never tell you anything anti-gurmat purely from guru granth sahib ji.. you have to faith in ur murshaad!!!

Somehow this reduces my understanding/faith in GGS, if we cannot succed wothout a murshad.

This is wrong.. Have faith in both.. you have to balance it.. for example----

Take a student in a college scenario.. you prof is a private tutor teaching you... you would followed his ways .. which also means every prof has his/her way to help you meet with guru(guru granth sahib ji)/atamgyan/,merge with vaheguroo...

same rule applies in this spirtual school

I always thought that was the beauty in sikhi, no need for a middle man.But I do understand your point that we need someone to guide us. LET me know your thought on these questions.

Veer stop dreamin in the dream land. Get Real. Western Sikhs have twisted the fact ... its the only journey between you and guru granth sahib ji...there is no way in hell you can get whole atam gyan of sggs by urself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.. our understanding of sggs is not even bit compare to murshad(bhramgyani) have.. because they spent all their life..seconds after seconds takin vaheguroo's naam... unlike us ...which we dont do.. because of other materalistic things in the world we have to follow and make em as our primary...ie- family, jobs, more concentration on people's lives than concentrating on naam!!

Do you have a murshad?

Yes i Do, Baba Ishar singh ji rara sahib maharaj his tapes.. I know it may sound un-realistic because he is not in this world anymore... but his voices are....his ways of explaing things from sggs ji is there... i have complete faith in him along with sggs(Because thats the main core in which you will get salvation)

I know in the time of the life after death.. he will save me....because i have faith in him........there is no if or else, what, but!!!!! just pure faith!!!!!!!!!

[samosasingh]

Sorry to keep pounding this thing to death, but I just need to understand this whole murshad concept. There is this huge pull in me to meet someone as babji, I have longed for so long, with no luck. Someone who can guide me further. Where we learned gursikhi and took amrit when I was like 12, they realy did not accept the sant philosophy. So I never really believed in them, then this camp closed down, and I was left to figure things out on my own. I had one day sent away from satnam trust for some books on sikhi, and included was a small english version of the life story of sant attar singh, nand sing, and the rehat maryada of taksal written by baba gurbachan singh. I remember when I used to read those books, and even now by eyes swell up and my spine goes straight, to think if I had such great company. My dad recently went to india and went to rara sahib and brought back the book "ruhani updesh", the life story of baba jee. Even when reading I had doubts about so called sants, then I realized that as I was reading it that I needed every little while go and mathatek to GGS, as my my eyes would swell up with love, then I realized what great things they did, and that they actually took us to GGS. And ever since I have relied on that compnay of there "vichaar". My question is I have been blessed with the sangat through book and tapes of so many sants like sant isher singh, baba nand singh, sant attar singh, taksal, baba harnaam singh, akj, etc etc. Then how to choose which to make your murshad, or is it a combination of all there gian, that we have to take as they are not hear with us physically. How do you communicate with them when you have a question???

[Guest]

you might want to check this post for full detail.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=738

[Guest]

Then how to choose which to make your murshad, or is it a combination of all there gian, that we have to take as they are not hear with us physically. How do you communicate with them when you have a question???

veer you have to remember you have to stick with one! because all mahapursh and bhramgyanis have their way of teaching from guru granth sahib ji..

You wont have any question when you hear all tapes of baba ishar singh ji .. they are about 200 tapes... each tapes has loads of deep thinking and hidden treasures from guru granth sahib ji... .

But i know watchya mean... if you wish to learn from different bhramgyanis.. there is not much resources.. but rara sahib has loads of resources.. including audios and video's..

I once heard one tape for the whole one week... quite amazing thing was i was picking up new things every time i hear his divan over and over for one week.. just beautiful.. it will keep you occupied for sure.. heeh

[samosasingh]

Where can I get these tapes and videos?

[Guest]

Where can I get these tapes and videos?

I have set up ftp server.. but i would recommend you whenever someone goes to india... ask him/her to bring the whole set of baba ishar singh ji audio tapes and videos..

remember the ftp access i gave you.. it has about 10 divans of baba ishar singh ji .. enjoy that for now..

[sevak]

Hello my friends, this is the same question that has been pondering me several times.

Ofcourse beyond a doubt.. there is no doubt in this that we do need a Murshad to take us to God.

A Murshad is a True-Guru, Sat-Guru who has already united himself with God. This Suleman is always talking about murshaad and his goal is only to get a Murshaad ! thats all.

the highest instruction is that you have to do whatever the murshaad is saying. Just take it because the GOD-UNITED Saint can never be wrong, so just do what the God-United Guru is telling you to do.

Now lets get back to the SGGS. Yes, the SGGS was made the satguru by Guru Gobind Singh ji, and the SGGS is in its original pure form, the shabad roop, the shabad form !

I myself dont know the anwer to these questions as to why is suleman not making the SGGS is his murshaad. It is clear that he was after Sant Ishar Singh and is referring to murshaad as Sant Ishar Singh.

Also can anyone tell me someone who attaiend God through SGGS directly? Baba Harnaam Singh ji and Baba Nand Singh ji are the two sants that come to mind, if I am wrong please correct me.

Ramana Maharishi one of the brahmgyanis of south india .. always talked about the importance of satguru to find God and he said it is IMPOSSIBLE without satguru just as suleman has said. Well but he said we need a living satguru in human form???

please answer me.

[vaapaaraa]

Nice post Sevak.. I think that unless a person is ready to meet the guru, he will not find the true Satguru.. in other words the guru will come on his own accord.

I would like to quote a line from the autobiography of a yogi

"A master bestows the divine experience of cosmic consciousness when his disciple, by meditation, has strengthened his mind to a degree where the vast vistas would not overwhelm him."

and another one fromsrcm

If there is love in your heart for the Master, then the Master begins to love you. If you can bring this about then your work is almost done. The important thing is to knock on the door of his heart so vigorously that he is compelled to open it to you.

[Guest]

seevak,

you are wrong about baba harnaam singh ji mahapursh and baba nand singh ji maharaj...

if you look it closely on the jaanam sakhis of two great mahapursh... you will see baba nand singh ji was a student of baba harnaam singh ji... and baba harnaam singh ji was a student of his teacher...

nanaksar sampradama, rara sahib sampradama and dadami takshal ... these are all takshals started by guru maharaj guru gobind singh ji maharaj.... and from the time then...its goin been going like a ladder...

this shall give you better understanding...

Nanaksar Sampradama (Spirtual Geneology)- http://www.angelfire.com/in/sidhu/babanandsinghji.html

Rara Sahib Sampradama (Spritual Genelogy)-

http://rarasahib.com/sg.htm

Dadamdami Takshal Sampradama (Spirtual Geneology)-

www.takshal.com (currently under-construction)

[Guest]

Well but he said we need a living satguru in human form???

please answer me.

Its very important you dont mis-understand this.

Ok lets see--Every main aim of the sikh is to meet guru ji.. one of the guru ji.. or all of em doesnt matter... right????

now saints/mahapursh/bhramgyanis have met them through their ustads/masters/teachers ...now if we were to meet our guru ji .. we need to find someone who already met our guru which are saints...

now its very critical to keep balance on the relationship between you and ur ustad/teacher and you with sggs/gurus

you cant call we need a human guru because thats the aim of very sikh is to meet the guru ji from the sggs.. saints are the the ones who can show us... remember fareed ssakhi.. he spent decades finding god but he couldnt .. after all he found a murshad....

i hope this clears up..vahegurooo.. akaal he akaaal

[sevak]

seevak,

you are wrong about baba harnaam singh ji mahapursh and baba nand singh ji maharaj...

if you look it closely on the jaanam sakhis of two great mahapursh... you will see baba nand singh ji was a student of baba harnaam singh ji... and baba harnaam singh ji was a student of his teacher...

okay fine it is clear now. The bottom lines it that we do need a Satguru who can teach us and the SGGS even though it is proven is Guru Nanak himselfy by Baba Nanad Singh Sahib, we are not yet developed and tuned to it? perhaps when a sikh is ready SGGS comes in the roop of some mahapursh.

In anycase then is not the SGGS the True Guru of the Sikhs. Is there any sant who attained God only and only through the SGGS and not relying on anyone else??

anyways Guru Nanak said taht the true guru is given by the lord to all sincere seekers.

[sevak]

now its very critical to keep balance on the relationship between you and ur ustad/teacher and you with sggs/gurus

i hope this clears up..vahegurooo.. akaal he akaaal

n30 singh, that is not a concrete answer and doesnt satisfy my question. In your previous post with the example of baba nand singh sahib and baba harnaam singh sahib, you are already implying the need of a human guru who has united with God. Also in this post you are slightly supporting that idea.

well it does mean we need a human Guru or sant or mahapursh to help us right or not? and without such a person we can not meet the SGGS Guru or God, right?

I was reading Baba Harnaam Singh ji's biography, have not read it full.. but where did he have a guru?

[Guest]

you wrote:

n30 singh, that is not a concrete answer and doesnt satisfy my question. In your previous post with the example of baba nand singh sahib and baba harnaam singh sahib, you are already implying the need of a human guru who has united with God. Also in this post you are slightly supporting that idea.

I m not implying anything here. How baba nand singh ji and baba harnaam singh ji are human guru when they were fully slave to guru's words(gurbani) and spent their life in standard rehat maryada.

Saints cant go againt guru words.. when 10th guru said 11th guru is guru granth sahib ji.. that is final word. there is no what if, but, else.. Gurus word is written.. no question asked.. you gettin a wrong idea here..

well it does mean we need a human Guru or sant or mahapursh to help us right or not? and without such a person we can not meet the SGGS Guru or God, right?

we need mahapursh to show us the way from sggs to merge with guru...by using human guru is wrong wording..there is no such thing as human guru after tenth guru decided that 11th guru is guru granth sahib ji

I was reading Baba Harnaam Singh ji's biography, have not read it full.. but where did he have a guru?

Again wrong wording, obviously he had a guru after you take amrit you have a guru/god to meet but whos is goin to take you to meet the guru is completely different question... thats when murshaad comes in, i m not sure if harnaam singh ji had a murshaad but i m sure he did...he did spent his learning in some sort of dharamsala where he learned about gurbani, spirtual praticiness,

[sevak]

okay I am misunderstanding slightly here. What is the meaning of murshad? from my understanding murshad means Guru, Satguru according to suleman's tape.

okay so you are saying we DO need a Sant Mahapursh to merge us with the Guru/God. Well then that answers my question, so it means you do need someone. some guide, some teacher who has already merged with the Guru/God to unite you with, right?

I agree SGGS is the Satguru. Baba Nand Singh and Baba Harnaam Singh both taught this, they even saw the 10 Gurus in the SGGS. However SGGS is in its purest state (Amrit Bani or Gurbani), we can not precieve it directly and we can not know it directly. So we do need a human interface !

okay then but Guru Gobind Singh ji did place the coconut and paise and declared SGGS as the 11th Satguru and said "Guru maaniyeoo granth". Then why cant we get God directly from SGGS just as people got God directly from the 10 Gurus without any help from mahapursh or sant?

In anycase Guru Nanak said that true seekers of God are provided with a Guru and on another ineterent site that I was reading it said that one should increase love for the Guru and Guru will love you back and then one should start loving so much and start knocking on the door behind which the Guru is and such that the Guru is forced to open the door and meet you.

for the time being. Let us all have FULL faith in SGGS as our Satguru. If incase we do meet a mahapursh or sant then we should serve him and learn from him, because this is the real company of sadh-sangat (Sadhu-sangat).. which Guru ji recommends.

[Guest]

Sevak Ji...thanks for understanding what i was comin from..you got it xclnt!! ..

Its amazing though for some people its very hard to grasp this simple concept.

[sevak]

I was reading SGGS, to me it seems that the SGGS is continuopusly asking us to find a sant, saint , a friend who can show us the way to God.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Only one thing gives a person the way to the Almighty:

The Almighty!

For a Sikh, taking amrit, joining saadh sangat and doing paath is the way of salvation.

Sometimes God blesses the Earth with a Sant who can guide us to the above path (ex. Sant Attar Singh). Sometimes, a person is blessed with the desire for that path by God (ex. Bhai Randhir Singh).

But in the end, it is God's kirpa that will determine our path.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

By the way, here's Guru Gobind Singh's comment on the matter:

________________________________________________________

Excerpts from Rahit Naama Bhai Nand Lal

What were the last commandments of Guru Gobind Singh before merging into the Infinite?

Articulation of Bhai Nand Lal

Dohira

What you have stated, Oh My Gurdev Master, `come to seek my vision,'

Please enable me to understand, how can we pursue the same.(9)

Articulation of Sri Guru Jee

Dohira

Assiduously listen Nand, there are three entities of mine,

And these, you comprehend, are Transcendental, Attributive and the Guru's Shabad, the Celestial Word.(10)

Chaupeyi

Only one Perception, which is beyond all the attributes,

Which has been expounded many a time in Vedas,(11)

And knowing all the thoughts, prevails through out,

And is indivisible like water,(12)

Deem (that) written on each of your body-hair,

And the factual pronouncement I make to you for veracity:(13)

The Sikh desirous of Guru's Darshan,

Should go and have the Darshan of Granth Jee,(14)

After ablution at the ambrosial hour,

And, auspiciously, undertake its circumambulation,(15)

Dohira

With folded hands be seated, seeking my audience,

And with mind lodged in Guru Granth Jee, listen to the celestial pontification.(16)

Chaupeyi

Hearing the Shabad with concentration, and by putting mind into Guru,

Listen and make others to heed to Guru's enlightening Shabad.(17)

One who wants to communicate with me,

He may read, listen to and ponder over Granth Jee.(18)

Ones who aspire to listen to my sermons,

Diligently, should read and recite Granth Jee.(19)

Deem Granth Jee as my embodiment,

And concede to no other perception.(20)

My Sikh is my third embodiment,

Who remains imbued in the essence of Gurbani.(21)

One who puts confidence and affection upon the Guru's Shabad.

He, always and ever, achieves the vision of the Guru.(22)

He should revel in listening and recounting Guru's Shabad,

And with full concentration read Jap Jee Jaap.{23)

Go and espy the Guru's Portal,

And discard the diversionary sanctuaries.(24)

With zeal serve the Sikhs of the Guru,

After relinquishing all the ego from his mind.(25)

One who manifests in these actions,

That Sikh recognises my manifestation.(26)

Dohira

That Sikh of Guru gets acceptance, which performs the service,

And the one who surrenders through mind, body and soul, becomes prominent server of mine.(27)

The service of such a Sikh of Guru is approved by me,

And, listen Nand earnestly, this is the way, the heaven is secured.(28)

Excerpts from Pritpal Singh Bindra?s forthcoming book in English, "Kalaam-e-Goya" to be published by Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh. <bindra@home.com>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....BA?OpenDocument

[r k]

I don't know if someone already said this but

I don't think we need "sants" to lead us to the right path - because so many of these "sants" can be totally corrupt - you can't trust anyone these days - only Guru Jee is 100% true... When people begin going to Sants for advice, they almost idolize the Sant and think that s/he is perfect - but no humans can be perfect...

That's why we need to understand that only Guru Jee can lead us to enlightenment and mukhtee. No Sant can do that. Being in Saadh Sangat OBVIOUSLY helps, but our Guru's came to this earth, spread their light, and now we have Guru Granth Sahib Jee to help us...

[nogroup singh]

Fateh to all,

I don't get one thing that why are we so confused?

All sants followed Guru Granth sahib ji as their GURUS, if they didn't then they are fake if they were Sikh Sants. < Period>

They were students of SGGS and Sikh Gurus and that's what they believe in for their whole life.

Now, why are we so confused about it? We are taking inspiration from them and there is nothing wrong in it as they are "Sadh Sangat" but treating them as GURUS or saying that they are on the level of GURUs is the biggest disrespect we can give them in our human form. They were student of same GURU we have, and they are our seniors. Simple????

Simple rules are below:

Worship the One Almighty God (AKAL)

Believe in the Guru Granth Sahib as the Word of God

Be in company of the Khalsa (Those who are God Intoxicated)

What's so hard to understand in above three rules of Sikhism?

[samosasingh]

I was listening to the suleman tape again. Suleman says that a guru that has passed away cannot give you mukti. Which is why Mohammed could not save him as he says because he did not pass on the light. So what we have to realize here is that Guru Nanak did not pass away, only the work of his human body did, the "Light" was passed on from guru to guru then eternally to Guru Granth Sahib jee, who is our eternal guru. Now the brahm gyanaees will sit at Gur Jee's Tabya and do parchar, and help us understand it more. That is why during amrit sanchaar the panj piaree say that nobody can call you "nigura" from this day on, because you have a guru and that is why it so important to take amrit. So we have to clear up this issue. Guru Granth Sahib is our guru and the Brahm Gyanee's are like Gur jee's commanded agents who get the light from Guru Granth Saheb and with his blessing come to this world and remind again and again that Guru Granth Sahib is the eternal Guru. They are all basically one with a different body, which is what Suleman is saying, to look at the light inside them, this is just a body, or in the case of the present guru rumalas or ink, you have to look deeper into them and see the one light. Baba Nand singh jee once while doing sukhasan disapeared into Guru Granth Saheb, which just goes to show us that they are all one, and so are we but we have not "seen" it yet. Please let me know your thoughts.