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Sri Hazoor Sahib-Bipran Ki Reet


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-Great post about Sri Hazoor Sahib and Bipar Hindu Influence

"ALL the KHALSA JI were BUSY fighting in the JUNGLES...and DESERTS...while the RSS ( BRAHMINS) had a filed day CONTROLLONG ALL our GURDWARAS and GRANTHS as well.

Thats when they changed all our MARYADAS and GRANTHS to suit their HINDU beleifs....in the 17th - 18th centuries... LONG BEFORE BRITISH RAAJ came along... Every SIKH was in HIDING and sikh heads were being SOLD for a price.... so the only persons who were in charge of our gurdwaras were Nirmalas, sadhs, MAHANTS etc who were heavily BRAHMIN.

This is precisely why the SINGH SABHA MOVEMENT began in the 1920's to REVIVE genuine Sikhi and CHASE OUT the HINDUS from our GURDWARAS and REMOIVE the MAHANTS.... SGPC came in durign this time after many many sacrifices and morchas... Unfortunately all this happened ONY in PUNJAB...Hazoor sahib and Patna Sahib being away from PUNJAB ESCAPED ATTENTION...and continue thier BRAHMINISED maryadas till this day.

Are you aware that the Harimandir sahib Parkirma was CHOCK FULL of HINDU DIETIES STATUES until the Singh sabha Lehr and SGPC came along and threw them all OUT....

The RSS/GOI is not a "new" thing as you beleive.....it is THOUSANDS of YEARS OLD.....and this is what swalloed BUDDHISM....and now has its eyes on SIKHISM."

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this is a post from a Veer that just got back from visiting Sri Hazoor Sahib

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ke Fateh.

To all my brothers:

I'm just back from my first ever trip to Sachkhand Sri Hazur Sahib. I still saw those Hindu style rituals being followed over there. Just wanted to find out why they exist and found this mailing list.

I saw that Bhai A Singh is interested in knowing 90% hindu rituals followed over there. Here is the list. Pls see if we really its not what Sikhi Taught, then can't we correct it.

1.There really *mandir* style arti that is performed over there. Amazingly they start with hymn from Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which talk about to Gagan being Thal and Suraj being Deepak.

2.Poojari jee take arti close to sangat and sangat rush to be revered by Arti.

3. Also Mandir Style Bells are used inside the Gurudwara during some rituals which I didn't understood.

4.In morning, Poojari ji make Chadan paste, which is then applied on the foreheads. Also Coconut is offered to Guruji.

5.When poojari move out of two savedar help push sangat aside, so that he can move. And poor people kneel down or even lie down to his feets.

6.In case there is some VIP guest during arti hours. Then some baba comes for some special blessings. Was not able to find more about the Baba Ji.

7.Bang is very much avaiable inside the Gurudwara Campus. But I feel thats very common practice among Nihang singhs. Nothing specific to Sri Hazur Sahib.

8.In Azaib ghar I saw I painting where Guru Gobind Singh Ji is seen as swaroop of Sri Ram. Call it avtaar.

9.Usually the room inside the Gurudwara sahib called Angitha Sahib is closed. Was not able to find a convincing answer Why? There is high degree of secrecy. They usually keep it locked during the Day. In evening when it was open by Poojari Ji (who sole has access to it) and people started shouting "Guru Ji is coming out". I was astonised and asked the person who told you that Guru Ji is locked?

10. Similarly near to MaalTekri, there is Dargarh of fakir who took care of "Treasure" that guru Ji kept safe with him. Some 9th Generation of the Fakir maintains the Dargarh. The contribution of the Fakir, generate respects for him. But people started bowing there head down on Dargarh and even I heard people that its important to visit Dargarh as it will fulfil you wishes. Some said a visit to Dargah is helpful if you have Joint paint.

These are few things that I noticed and that bothered me. I extermly sorry If I saw things in wrong light. I'm nothing more than a kid as far as I knowledge the Sikh history is concerned. I only understood basic principles of Sikhi as dictated by Japji Sahib and Rehras Sahib.

My knowledge is really limited. So if some knowledgeable person can shed some light on this, it will be helpful.

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Our Khalistani Brethen wrote:

<<<Every SIKH was in HIDING and sikh heads were being SOLD for a price.... so the only persons who were in charge of our gurdwaras were Nirmalas, sadhs, MAHANTS etc who were heavily BRAHMIN>>>

Perhaps you ought to realise that the Nirmala, Sadhs and Mahants predominantly were NOT actually Brahmins, but Jats. Have a look on the Nirmala threads on this forum, the former Nirmala members have made clear that in particular the Mahant title could only be occupied by a Jat.

Also, regardless of our views on this sampradhas, perhaps also look to what they did for the survival of the Panth during those turbulent times rather than completely ostracising them.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

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Dear brother,

There are many points in Sri Hazuri Maryada, which I think are not 'Gurmat', but in any situation, I cannot show respect for those, who do not show respect for Hazuri sevadaars. They (Hazuri Sevadar) are more beloved of Guru Gobind Singh Ji than any of such 'Nindak'.

Before critcizing Hazuri Prampra, they should know the facts given in our old texts. Punjabi Sikhs have no right to critcise Hazuri Prampra. First of all, they should maintain 'Gurmat' maryada in Sri Darbar Sahib, Sri Amritsar Sahib Ji, where they do not say 'Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal' during Ardas. :wink: Is the head granthi of Sri Darbar Sahib Ji a Brahman, who does not say Bole So Nihaal? :D

These 'scholars' should know history of Brahmanism. They will find out many interesting points.

I make a request to such people that they should read the 'Shabd' of 'Gaganmai Thaal'. It is clear from their views that they have not read this 'Shabd'. Instead spending time on 'dumaalas' and 'cholas', they should listen 'Katha' of Gurbani. Shaanti Vi Milegi te Akal Vi Aayegi.

Well, I have already made some of my points clear: - http://www.amritworld.com/hazooree_maryada...k_adhiyain.html

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I think the jaikara was down to the British not allowing it, definitaly read it somewhere.

Akaali, as a sikh I dont think it is right for you to call other sikhs such names because regardless of the fact that their 'beliefs differ' from yours, they nevertheless keep rehit perhaps better than us put together, no offence but some respect to our brothers yeah?

didnt read all the points, but point 4 is interesting- just a reminder that when Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi they tekked 5 pasie and a coconut so er the coconut is bad how?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

ok please no one scream but I don't know the reason but I have heard that the coconut is not eaten or broken unlike the hindus who break the coconut but left like that, not keep at home but not eaten so the rest u can decide what to do with it.

Yes I have heard about the tilak but I do wander what the relevance is and why it is not used today.

I remember going to Sachkhand Sri Hazoor Sahib and we had darshan of one Guru Granth Sahib Ji in which there was an old drawing of one of the Guru Jis inserted within the pannas or at the back. And the Guru Ji as far as I remember did have tilak on.

I'm guessing that it was not put on by others but only the Gurus?

But perhaps it is a sign of being the king, eg.like kalgi.

I haven't got a clue.

But I think I read somewhere that Guru Ji put tilak on someone so maybe its not something everyone put on but special ppl.

WIld guess.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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brillant reply by avidya veer ji at tapoban regarding hazoor sahib thread:

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji Ki Fateh

What I find incredible is the picking and choosing of certain individuals and their mindsets. The fact that the aarti shabads are macrcosmic (i.e. the description of the whole of matter itself being the devotional worship of parmaatma) being said to be at odds with symbollic worship with fire, incense, water, flowers and sound. Surely taking the same assumption that it is 'manmat' to manifest the metaphysical principle in a physical object, would make amrit sanchaar in your thinking another hollow brahminical ritual? The old Kala Afghana route perhaps? If I mention historical texts then 'they have been brahminified', if I mention tradition ' it is kept by brahminified Sikhs'. Of course the touchstone to your arguments is Gurbani, but clearly as mentioned above, the aarti shabads are as much against practical aarti, as they are against any other act of symbolism in Sikhi. To my own mind, you need to look to the Guru's own lives as well as Gurbani to contextualise it. Taje for example tiraths. It is held by such a mindset that visiting and bathing at tiraths are utterly manmat. Yet Guru Amar Das MADE a tirath at Goindwal! It even has symbollism attached to the steps at the baoli! So it would seem if you go back to Gurbani and consider it in this light, you find the correct teaching which is that the outer aspects of practice can be symbollic, but they must be truthful, meaningful and full of devotional worhsip to Parbrahm. If they are done out of any other motivation then it is pointless. I digress!

Traditionally the actual aarti contains all panchtattva on the thal giving it a similar interpretation. Aarti isn't just the stay of Takhat Patna sahib and Takhat Hazoor Sahib, but also of all four main samprdas (Nihangs, Udasin, Nirmalay and Sewapanthis) who in the case of the Udasis were elected to run the Gurdwaray by the Guru himself during the dark years of the early 18th century, the same order he writes of in Bachittar Natak.

The claim of idol worship by '!!' by doing aarti of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is surprising since clearly Gurbani states that Guru is nothing less than sarguna Paratma. If that sounds like heresy you need to read Gyani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale's katha on Japuji Sahib which states the same.

Balpreet Singh's complaint that there were paintings of devtay in Sri Patna Sahib back when is also naive. If a Gurdwara can have pictures of Sants, or paintings of bhagats up, what then is the issue of putting up paintings of fellow devtay who hold a similar position when mentioned in Gurbani?! This is plain paranoia! Rather than define gurmat by the political and identity needs of the day, spend time really thinking about what Gurbani is stating which is a timeless statement of truth. Please do not impose such petty identity issues on Gurmat.

A final issue, vaguely related here, which has been on my mind for sometime, and which some of the sangat on this forum will be able to explain...

From what I read, when things are 'totally anti-gurmat' like this, then you advise fellows Kaurs and Singhs to stay away. I presume this would have been the original sentiment of Jagjit Singh, and Jugroop Singh has stated such sentiments with regard to even speaking to some of the supposed nangs of the UK. If this is the case;

a) Why did Bhai Jeevan Singh serve as granthi for so long at Sri Patna Sahib with its clearly 'anti gurmat' maryada of an elaborate aarti of the image and asthan of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji using a conical aarti lamp? Surely he shouldn't have stayed an hour longer had he shared your opinions?

B) Why do AKJ continue to hold Raensabhais at Sri Takhat Patna Sahib with such 'manmat' maryada and BJP sponsored practice? Surely this would make the attendees equally dubious using your own logic?

No accusations are being made on my part, because I imagine those individuals simply accept this is the maryada even if they disagree! I have seen a Bibi ji following AKJ maryada who was part of the raensabhai group with my own eyes stand for the aarti, although not moving forward, at Sri Patna Sahib.

I'd be interested in the answer.

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Gurfateh

It is irony that Punjab due to Britishised or protestantised Gurmat is full of apostasy in Areas with with Little or No Hindu Population while in Hindu Majority Areas like that of Two Takhats outside Punajb we have Panth increasing even with Neo converts ire in Bihar or in Mahrashtra.

Reason is that there Sikhs know both Hindusim and gurmat ajnd how we are better than Hinduism.

this is a post from a Veer that just got back from visiting Sri Hazoor Sahib

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ke Fateh.

To all my brothers:

I'm just back from my first ever trip to Sachkhand Sri Hazur Sahib. I still saw those Hindu style rituals being followed over there. Just wanted to find out why they exist and found this mailing list.

I saw that Bhai A Singh is interested in knowing 90% hindu rituals followed over there. Here is the list. Pls see if we really its not what Sikhi Taught, then can't we correct it.

Thus Das starts the corre ction humbley with his head bowed to the poster has poster has genunine concern with the welfare of the Panth so das repect thAT thing but clarifiaction on the side of orthodox Sanatan Sikhs is requisite.

Das wants to add that there is no rule that Jatt can be head of the Nirmalas and that can be verified from Amritworld.com.

1.There really *mandir* style arti that is performed over there. Amazingly they start with hymn from Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which talk about to Gagan being Thal and Suraj being Deepak.

Sakme is still done in many Gurudwaras beside there.

Say if hindu do Arti with lamps etc we must stp it then we can say that Arti itslef was with Hindus and we may not do it.

Weather Arti is dome with or without lampis immaterrial but unlike Arti of Hindus which is done for demi gods if it is done for Akal then what is wrong.

Hindus put cloaths on idols,do chaur so should we stop doing it on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Main reason of Arti being done in Sikhs is due the fact that Aurangzeeb Banned Arti in Temples and Hindus obeyed but Sikhs disobeyed and just to show defiance to biogatory they did it to Akal.

Das wants to remind that there are verse Dhup Deep Dhrit Saje Arti,Deepak Deay Ujaiar,Joot Laye Jadhessh Jagaya Bujhe Bujahmn Hara,Panche Sabad Anahad Bhaje Baje Sange Sarang Pani,Kabeer Das Terri Arti Keeni Nirankar Nirbani.

Logic of Arti was to let germs etc be removed from offfersing made to idols.

But in our case it is the same way that as Guru told to not to eat Halal as it was forced so as Arti was not allowed so we did it.

But it is symbolic and be or not to be it has no effect on sprituality.

2.Poojari jee take arti close to sangat and sangat rush to be revered by Arti.

Well logic of Arti being taken near devotees in Hindu Temple is that ddevotees or Bhakts are beheld higher than deity.

Here as Guru Granth and Sangat ie Guru Panth are same so it may gbe a symbol of same but has no spritual or magiacal efftect.

3. Also Mandir Style Bells are used inside the Gurudwara during some rituals which I didn't understood.

Well bells are there in Churches,Budhist Stupas and perhaps in some Sufi aeras But nothing to do with hindus.

Bells are mark of let far off people know that there is some activity going on in Gurudwara or Gurudwara is nearby.

Somewhat like Azan in Mosques.

It was in past doing what luod speaker or microphone did in past.

4.In morning, Poojari ji make Chadan paste, which is then applied on the foreheads. Also Coconut is offered to Guruji.

If das is not mistaken it could be saffron.

Sikhs in Deccan use Tilak on thier forehead and that maeks them differant from Sikligara or Lambadi Sikhs(they are Blacksmith and nomands respectivly).

Say if Hindu wears turban or Muslim has Beared(Before First Master's Avtar) then we must not have it.

It is to be verifed from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Vars of Bhai Gurudas Ji that Tilak and Coconut or Nariyal was givne to the new Guru.

In Deccan Tenth Master gave the same to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and leftover was applied to the Panth or Sangat as they too are body of Panth is Granth Sahib are the souls.

This is the symbol of the same.This needs to be encouaged rahtewr to let world know that we as a Khalsa enjoy the Guruhood.

5.When poojari move out of two savedar help push sangat aside, so that he can move. And poor people kneel down or even lie down to his feets.

Well kindly watch Astha international which gives live telecaste of the Rahiras Sahib from the Hazur Sahib.Available in USA and UK.

If someone sits in Parikrama of Darbar sahib ,Aritsar,there too those are removed to pave way to others.And there to it is good to bow head to the mamangement.By the way term Pujari must not be used here.

6.In case there is some VIP guest during arti hours. Then some baba comes for some special blessings. Was not able to find more about the Baba Ji.

That is done to encourage others to follow the way VIP(genrally who fooers good offering) has done the service and if some one has no monety then when that person has mony he,she should do the similar service.Das wish he could do big SEVA some day at Hajur Sahib.

In SGPC managed places too a person who offeres in hundereds of thousend of ruppes or $ is respected so that other too get inspiration and this is not Bad and it is responibilty of VIP to not to come for that so called blessing which is nothing but roll of honuor bestowed unto servent who served.

7.Bang is very much avaiable inside the Gurudwara Campus. But I feel thats very common practice among Nihang singhs. Nothing specific to Sri Hazur Sahib.

Well rember one thing that in hindi ther is a proverb,Cheken cooked at home is like lintils.

When intoxicaNTS ARE used in Ayurvedas or Sidha it is intoxicant while when allopathic or homeopahtic medicnes for pain killing,psychiatric treatment or as a sedatives are used in in Hosptials run by Guru Dwaras then they are OK.

Often SHahidi Deg there is without Cannabis by people with Complusive Obsesive Disoreder(where a person trys to act perefct and found fault in others) will see Bhang there also.Das recomends them to first taste both Bhand and Deg without Bhang and then decide.

Panth does not recoganise heavan nor Rituals so if Sikh uses Bhang for some purpose das does not feel that Sikh can go to hell or any Vrat etc of Sikh is going to be destroyed.

SGPC code of conduct debars the addiction to intoxicant and usage without addiction for health purpose seems to be OK.

8.In Azaib ghar I saw I painting where Guru Gobind Singh Ji is seen as swaroop of Sri Ram. Call it avtaar.

There is verse by Bhats in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

Saying that Guru Nanak Dev Ji are reincarnation of the one who took form of Bali,Rama and Krishana in previous ages.So was that verse by Bhatt is an attempt of So Called Brahmin to dilute Sikhism.

Off couorse not.And as First Master and Tenth Master are the same so Rama and Tenth Master are one and picture A tool for an illitrate to understand that Rama is atpresent Ten th master is tool of preching.

As usulal reactionar hindusi in Sangh desist from quoting those verses from Guru Granth Sahib Ji as they will make Hindus as Sikhs.

Waht it actualy means is that in Past Heros who were neither Hindu nor Indian but had universal depctions of Charectors in thier best for Humans in diverse fileds may or may not exist But Khalsa the form of Guru has those qualities.

Instead of worshipping Rama or Krishna ,Hindus can attain Ramahood or Krishnahood by becoming Sikhs as by attaining Khalsahood,which is form of Guru.

9.Usually the room inside the Gurudwara sahib called Angitha Sahib is closed. Was not able to find a convincing answer Why? There is high degree of secrecy. They usually keep it locked during the Day. In evening when it was open by Poojari Ji (who sole has access to it) and people started shouting "Guru Ji is coming out". I was astonised and asked the person who told you that Guru Ji is locked?

If das is no mistaken in Guru Dwara Bala Sahib(Delhi) Just over the Angeetha we have Prakash of Guru Maharaj.

Then Das would like to know that in most of the Takhats and Darbar Sahib,A place where Prakash is made and offering are made are bloacked from public access as some wrong person can do pilfreage or otherwise do Muthi Chappi(pressing the Palkis feet which is Anti Gurmat) and can distrub the Sevadar.).

So denying Access in OK espeacilly when Prakash of Both the Holy book is outside then why should we see tghe place where pyre was burnt as Guru is always visible.

BUT inside weapons with hisotric imporatcne are kept and can be made open to pubic in restricted ways even for views or anyone can steal it or say start to worship it in hindu way but we want that to be done to books only.

If someone pays reverance to the artifects belonging to Guru or great Sikhs and want people to see them with decorum and so they are kept in safe place there must not be a problems.

like wise Guru Granth Sahib Ji are kept in that room also.Saying Guru is coming means that Guru is visible.

10. Similarly near to MaalTekri, there is Dargarh of fakir who took care of "Treasure" that guru Ji kept safe with him. Some 9th Generation of the Fakir maintains the Dargarh. The contribution of the Fakir, generate respects for him. But people started bowing there head down on Dargarh and even I heard people that its important to visit Dargarh as it will fulfil you wishes. Some said a visit to Dargah is helpful if you have Joint paint.

Das has visited that Gurudwara and incidently we have another missionaries of Charity by mother Teresa centre also adjacent to it.

In another Gurudwara on Bank of Ganges in Patna Sahib also there is temple of Rama where Pujari keeps the picture of Guru and call Sikhs.

Das niether Visited Dargah nor that Temple and and in case no official of either Takhat Sahib will endrose it.

Incidently at Maal Tekri it is sadi that when Khalsa will be of the number 96 Crore that treasure will be given to them.

that peer is the symbol that Gurmat is one with Islam and true Followers were trusted by Guru and were made Trustee of Panth.Message there is clear that Number of Panth need to be increase.

And if Muslims of Dargah(Dargah is place of worship while mazar is grave) endreose this thing then we need to support.This is some thing to do with Sufis and not with Brahmins opr vipran Ki reet.

Guru Ji did visited the Dadudwara and interacted with care takers while did discouraged the grave worship so till we do not bow to idol or dead just for the sake of historic importance visitng Temple or Dargah can be OK,By the way use of visiting the Gurudwaras of Historical importance is same and not to do with Punyas as done in hindus.

These are few things that I noticed and that bothered me. I extermly sorry If I saw things in wrong light. I'm nothing more than a kid as far as I knowledge the Sikh history is concerned. I only understood basic principles of Sikhi as dictated by Japji Sahib and Rehras Sahib.

My knowledge is really limited. So if some knowledgeable person can shed some light on this, it will be helpful.

Das can recomend you to read Dasham Granth and Sarblog Granth after you have understood Adi Guru Darbar but das does appriciate your concerns and can say that Sikhs are nothing going to loose if they leave those rituals but if we understand those ritual in tjhe light of Gurumat then they are not going to harm us but can be benficial also.

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