how is this Bhagat Kabeer verse to be understood?

[amardeep]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

i was reading a verse in the meat argument, that went like this:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2||

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3||

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

can someone please tell me the katha/tafseer on this verse because i dont understand how it makes sence:(, because muslims dont belive that God is within all. they say Allah is above his creation. only hindus and sikhs say that God is all pervading and a part of his creation. so how can this sentence:

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

make any sence when it is adressed to a muslim?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Mystical]

I think the Chicken can also be seen as a Kafir and most muslims believe that killing the Kafir is doing Justice to God? But God is in all, and the soul goes through the cycle of life and death, until it reaches an unattached state of being one, uneffected by Maya.

[amardeep]

but muslims dont belive in this.

[Mystical]

That was the best I could come up with. Im sure there's someone here that understand this more?

[Pheena]

They hypocracy is pointed out where the animal Pig which is sacred to muslim and is never used for eating, while a chicken is. Does God not reside in the Chicken also?

[amardeep]

yeah but muslims dont belive that God resides within all

[Iron-Singh]

the "islam" of all muslims is not the same.

if you've lived in india you'll know what i mean. there is a great deal of difference between islam in punjab and the islam of bengal and the islam of saudi arabia....and not just in terms of sects.

so even if "pure" islam believes God doesn't reside in the creation, it doesn't mean the normal indian muslim will believe that aswell.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Frined,

Das had a fight with a Hindutva person on this issue on Sikhphilosophy.net as he first stated that 'terrorists' akj people are anit to meat eaters and when das told that das eats beef to prove that we are not Hindus he started to give this verse to prove that meat is not allowed.

Anyway no one is born terrorsits and that person was terrorsing Sikhs on internet without understanding that Holy Vedas,Holy Bible,Holy Kuran are all full of pro Meat things and we there not to oppse them but to unite them as under the name of Akal.Main oppostion of us to be tagged as Hindu or Muslim is due to that only as we are Both Hindu and Muslim as well As chrisitan also as we Are Sikh for of Tenth Nanak.

Das read same verse by some Hindus who wrote Ved Kate B Kah Mat Jhote ie only Vedas to be beheld and True while Guru told of unity of all scriptures.

Even in Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jhagre Guru tells Maas or meat is in Puranas and meat in Kuran.

So coming back to the verse you have question.

ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥

प्रभाती ॥

parbhaatee.

Prabhaatee:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥

मुलां कहहु निआउ खुदाई ॥

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

तेरे मन का भरमु न जाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ॥

पकरि जीउ आनिआ देह बिनासी माटी कउ बिसमिलि कीआ ॥

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥

जोति सरूप अनाहत लागी कहु हलालु किआ कीआ ॥२॥

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2||

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕੁ ਕੀਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

किआ उजू पाकु कीआ मुहु धोइआ किआ मसीति सिरु लाइआ ॥

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

जउ दिल महि कपटु निवाज गुजारहु किआ हज काबै जाइआ ॥३॥

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3||

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

तूं नापाकु पाकु नही सूझिआ तिस का मरमु न जानिआ ॥

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੪॥

कहि कबीर भिसति ते चूका दोजक सिउ मनु मानिआ ॥४॥४॥

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

Read the lines das made big for you and you may understand direct from verse that it is oppsing Halal.

why is it so?

After Lord Jesus,Old Testment was not to be followed and so Chrsitians may eat non kosher and pork.

And as per Sura of Holy Kuran 2 and 5 perhaps Mohtaj or person who is helpless may eat non Halal(meat killing without name of God said),Pork,Blood and Murdar(Dead animal not killed).And as per Islam ie surrender one has to behold oneslef always helples in front of God.

But let us go to old testment itslef.it is after Gensis or within that.ABRAM,kills his son(Isac for Judeo Chrsitans but Ismail for Muslims) but a lamb is foound dead.(Id Ul Azzah is clebrated for this reason).

God bleses Him and gives him name Abraham from ABRAM.

Then only God tells him to kill animal with let his life in the from of blood goes on the ground.Main purpose was to kill animal before eating and not to cook alive animal.

Same is repeated in deutrinomy.

so in Halal and Kosher as a religeous duty blood has to be draned out of the body and animiya leads to death ,we call it death due to bleeding.

But Gurmat finds Akal same in Blood as in Flesh,Pursh Sutras says God is in all,Book of Issiah says God in all,Holy Kuran has Sura which says Allah encompasses all.so if akal is in all then why to differantiate between Blood and flesh and let animal bleed to die as per relgeous ritual while scriptures say something opposite?

[Guest SAdmin]

das eats beef to prove that we are not Hindus he started to give this verse to prove that meat is not allowed.

Hindus were "beef" eater as well. You may want to read book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185984424...ce&n=283155

Read review of this book at http://www.forteantimes.com/review/holycow.shtml

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article....iclenumber=8040

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das agrees to that as Das lived in Tamil Brahmin Family who did serve das beef,which was not Halal.

anyway das could say that in old Aryan or Sanatan Dharami litrature cow was a part of diet and maybe just to appease say Farsi invaders(present Parsi do not eat beef) who called Indians Hindus,these guys may have stopped eating beef else most scriptures are pro beef.

Other reason could be lack of feuland cow dung was always good fuel and manure.

In India it is true that mnay Hindus themsleves are party of cow sloughter.

anyway Das thanks for good links as Jha Ji also a Bihari like Das are thinking on the same frequency but again nothing to do with Hindusim as at the time of beef eating Hinduism did not exist and many present day hindus race people were in middle asia.

[Guest SAdmin]

D. N Jha's book clearly mentions when and why "beef" eating became taboo within Hindu community.

The strength of Jha's analysis is in locating the shift from beef eating to a non-meat diet in the changing India of medieval times. Rural India witnessed a huge expansion in agriculture as pastoral, nomadic society gave way to settled agriculture where the cow and other livestock become central to production. Working on the land had been the preserve of the cultivator caste but from the second century AD it grew to incorporate the poor and priests. The latter played an increasing role in agricultural development through the practice of land donations by kings to priests in return for spiritual services. It is here that beef eating begins to become associated with pollution and evil spirits. Religious texts and law books are modified to describe cow eating as unclean, and beef as well as other meat begins to disappear from the menus for brahmins and the upper classes. Not so for poor peasants who continue to eat all meat, including beef, and are classified as impure and untouchable. Law books begin to prescribe punishments for cow killers such as fasting for 25 days and feeding brahmins. In this way Jha clearly shows the modern basis for caste in India.

I don't want to go off topic so this is my last post. I just wanted to clarify this.

[Mystical]

They hypocracy is pointed out where the animal Pig which is sacred to muslim and is never used for eating, while a chicken is. Does God not reside in the Chicken also?

Not sacred, but they think of pigs as being filthy. But yeah you are right underwise.

[amardeep]

hey dass jee.

are u sure the Quran says Allah is in all? i have found this verse myself, but it only means that he controls these areas..not that he is these ares..

002.115

To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Bro,

If you are the same Amardeep Singh ji of spn das gave verse which tells Allah surrunds or emcomppasses all,in debate over Holy Kuran in the thread Kuran to all Sikh students.

[Mystical]

hey dass jee.

are u sure the Quran says Allah is in all? i have found this verse myself, but it only means that he controls these areas..not that he is these ares..

002.115

To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing

Well there you go, God is in all, "Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing".

Where ever you turn the presence of God is there. For God is all-present, all-knowing.

The word Pervading means to be present throughout.

[amardeep]

there are different translations to the verse

002.115

YUSUFALI: To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

PICKTHAL: Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.

SHAKIR: And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

vijaydeep: no its not me. can u link me to the debate forum?

[Mystical]

I think this is why Guru Ji said that God is everywhere and not just in the direction of the Kaaba.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Perhaps this is 4.126

http://www.balagh.net/english/quran/light/004/4_126.htm