Namdharis

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

My mistake about the translations Fateh ji.

Yes, thanks for clearing up that section on recognising differences between groups.

I have spoken to Namdharis in the past in depth about Namdhari marayada and from where it orignates (i.e. Hazuur Sahib).

Does this explain the practice of sodhi though, as I'm certain this wasn't part of the maryada back then, but more a political reaction to British government.

[fatehsingh]

jtsingh

Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni

As for the Sodh Maryada, the name 'Sodh' was given by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji. It is basically the maryada of the Granthis and those who looked after Maharaj's Beeds (Both Sri Aad and Dasam, as is still the maryada today) and the Shastars of the Guru. 'Sodh' is a short form of 'Such Sodh' (ie. Complete Cleanliness/Purity).

Back at the time of Satguru Ram Singh Ji, 'Sodh' was the 'Normal' Maryada of a Sant Khalsa and had no special name. But after the oppression that took place after Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji went to exile, and because many Namdhari Singhs went to other countries and some of them were not able to follow the Maryada in its ENTIRETY, the name 'Sodhi' was used for those who followed the complete Sant Khalsa Maryada.

In other words, 'Sodhi' is a title of encouragement. A reward given to those who are willing to leave behind the modern day 'junk' and live according to the Khalsa Rahet in its purest form.

Sodh is a 'Piri' (Spritual) concept. Nevertheless it does no doubt affect a person's political actions so you are also correct with your theory.

Fateh Singh

[fatehsingh]

Sat Sri Akal:

Making an accusation of nindya against Sant Jarnail Singh and then calling it "insignificant"? Nice try.

If it was so insignificant, why did you even bring it up? Obviously, it was significant to at least one Namdhari - you. So please back up this accusation with some sort of evidence.

ms514, what is all this 'petty talks' and little naggings? Here's my final answer about my view regarding Bhindrawale so please try to UNDERSTAND without having me going through an interrogation session:

The fact that he did nindya was 'significant'. Because if you go around doing nindya of others you cannot expect them to support you. Hence his 'actions' were significant. But the 'nindya' itself is 'insignificant' because who can remember how many nindyas are being done or have been done in the past about all the great figures and even the oridinary people? This is a common sense question.

I also want to make it VERY CLEAR that I am aware of the fact that Bhindrawale DID do a lot of GOOD by putting people on the right track and giving them Amrit and stopped them from doing drugs etc. Hence from the spiritual point of view he was respectable and admirable person up to certain circumstances. But he was not born to be a politician and I personally did not like his political strategies. If you are 'in love' with his political strategies then that is your wish and I respect that. Have a nice day.

THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING.

Fateh Singh

[Guest]

I think only barrier between mainstream sikhs and namdhari sikhs is that fact they call their saints "satguru".

From what we know is "Guru" word is derived from "sanskrit". So it can not be held by only sikhs.

sat=Truth

Gu=darkness

ru=light (Enlightment)

So bringing people from darknees to light(enlightment) that is guru...

If namdhari are claiming it. I dont see that as a dis-respect or anything. Because they are simply using the concept which was derived from sanskrit.

But the main problem is that if guroo gobind singh ji maharaj appointed sggs as the living guru. No-One else. Then how come namdhari sikhs are not following the guroo's hakum????

Fateh singh ji, can you please shed some light in that matter as well???

[fatehsingh]

But the main problem is that if guroo gobind singh ji maharaj appointed sggs as the living guru. No-One else. Then how come namdhari sikhs are not following the guroo's hakum????

Fateh singh ji, can you please shed some light in that matter as well???

I REALLY DO NOT want to touch this topic AT ALL. Why? Because I am happy as long as you do respect the Sri Granth Sahibs and try to live your lives according to the Hukams of my Satgurus that are recorded within them. And the Sri Granth Sahibs definitely DO NOT advocate name callings, finger pointings and disrespect towards any other religion. Even towards people such as Dheermal the Gurus NEVER advocated or arranged any kind of propaganda against him.

Namdhari Singhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not give Gurgaddi to any of the Sri Granth Sahibs or the Panj Pyare or the Panth Khalsa as is believed by the mainstream Sikhs. And that's our belief.

This is what we believe in regarding the 'death' of Guru Gobind Singh:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Gu...%20of%20GGS.htm

Again, as the very first line of the page says 'The Namdhari Sikhs believe...' so this is what we believe in 'sincerely' and not because we get 'paid' or 'promotions' or anything as such. In fact we have been oppressed and harrassed for believing in what we did by the British and its supporters. The website supports our view with several evidents. It is up to the reader to believe it or not. We do not and CANNOT force anyone to believe in the same. The ONLY SOLE PURPOSE of the various Namdhari websites has been NOTHING ELSE other than to ELIMINATE BASELESS PROPAGANDA against the Namdhari Panth that some websites, such as the one you also mentioned, have created out of simple insecurities.

Fateh Singh

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

veer its well recorded fact the dhun siri guru gobind singh ji maharaj pulled the arrow ripping the stitches from a wound inflicted by a hindoo worker.

he gave his final 52 hukams then and their on his way to saachkhand, wher he already wuz even b4 leaving this duniya, who knows how many more mahraj had on his travels.

but if u respect my dhun guru granth sahib ji dhun dhun satguru, i will respect ur beliefs.

Unlike nirankaries.......

[fatehsingh]

Dear cybersangat,

Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni.

Article below is taken from a Namdhari website that sheds light on some questions and misconceptions about the Namdhari Panth. While some questions have already been answered by myself in this thread, others are just as interesting.

This shouldn't offend anyone. Or so it's hoped.

Fateh Singh

Source: http://www31.brinkster.com/namdhari/FACT/factfaq.htm

The following are some Frequently Asked Questions, and some misconceptions that require clarification, about the history and beliefs of the Namdhari Sikhs.

1. Who is a Namdhari?

2. Why do Namdhari Sikhs believe in more than 10 Gurus?

3. Are Namdhari Sikhs 'Amritdharis' (Baptised)?

4. How do Namdhari Sikhs treat the Granth Sahibs?

5. Do Namdhari Sikhs eat meat?

6. Why do Namdhari Sikhs shun wearing blue and black attires?

7. Why do Namdhari Sikhs perform Havan?

8. Are Namdharis 'Sikhs'?

9. Why are Namdhari Sikhs also called 'Kukas'?

10. Why do other Sikhs outnumber Namdhari Sikhs?

11. What is the view of the Namdhari Sikhs regarding other sects?

12. Did Guru Ram Singh admit He wasn't a Guru from exile?

13. Did Guru Ram Singh cut His hair/burn Granth Sahib/wear blue clothes, etc.?

14. Did the Namdhari Sikhs tear pages of Granth Sahib to perform 'Patra Path'?

15. What was the role of Namdhari Sikhs after 1872?

16. Are Namdhari Sikhs sponsored/created by the Government of India?

17. Do Namdhari Sikhs follow the Rehat Maryada of SGPC?

18. Did Guru Ram Singh leave His body in 1885?

19. Why did the lineage of Gurus continue when Guru Ram Singh is still alive?

20. Do Namdhari Sikhs give Amrit to women?

21. Why is the Namdhari Anand Karaj different than that of other Sikhs?

22. Why is the Namdhari Ardas different than that of other Sikhs?

23. Were the Namdhari Sikhs tied to cannons at Malerkotla?

1. Who is a Namdhari?

A person who has received the Gurmantra from the Satguru or from those authorized by the Satguru, respects and follows the Hukam of the Gurus as written in the Sri Aad and Dasam Granth Sahib and the Hukam of the Hazoor Satguru is a Namdhari.

2. Why do Namdhari Sikhs believe in more than 10 Gurus?

Namdhari Sikhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not leave His body in 1708 but in fact played the act to escape the direct attention of the Mughal rulers and continued to assist the Sikhs in times of distress. To support this claim there are countless proofs, some of which are displayed on the following links:

'Death' of Guru Gobind Singh - Sikh-Heritage.co.uk

How/when did Granth Sahib became 'Guru'? - Namdhari.faithweb.com

For beginners who are interested to learn the history of the Namdhari Sikhs and the differences in their beliefs compared to the other Sikhs, the following books are recommended:

(a) Purakh Guru - by Giani Mehar Singhji Kanpur

( Kukas, The Freedom Fighters of The Panjab - by M. M. Ahluwalia

3. Are Namdhari Sikhs 'Amritdharis' (Baptised)?

The Namdhari Panth was essentially established to revive the old Khalsa Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh that was almost completely lost from the surface of the earth, hence being Amritdhari is an essential part of being a Sant Khalsa and therefore a very large percentage of Namdhari Sikhs is in fact Amritdhari. However there are also many Namdhari Sikhs (mostly from the Hindu and Muslim communities) who, like in the olden days of the 10 Gurus, revere the Satguru as an Incarnation of God and receive the 'Naam', thereby becoming Namdharis, but do not partake Khande Da Pahul and become a Khalsa. Nevertheless, the Sant Khalsa Namdharis do not question their authenticity of being Sikhs and they are given the deserved respect as is everyone else.

4. How do Namdhari Sikhs treat the Granth Sahibs?

At the time when the Namdhari Panth was established, Granth Sahibs had lost almost all scriptural/spiritual significance in the eyes of the so called 'Sikhs' and the corrupt Mahants of the time. It is a well known fact that Satguru Ram Singh traveled from Dharamsala to Dharamsala, opened up the abandoned houses of worship, cleaned the volumes of Granth Sahib that were forgotten and chewed off by rats with His Dastaar (Turban), and taught the people the proper respect that the Granth Sahibs deserved. The Namdhari Sikhs therefore dearly respect both Sri Aad and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs equally as Gurbani and treat them with no less, if not more, respect than the other Sikhs who claim to worship the Sri Aad Granth Sahib as Guru. In fact the Namdhari Sikhs believe that since the Gurus themselves bowed down before the Granth Sahib it therefore does not make sense that Guru Gobind Singh would have allegedly lowered the status of Granth Sahib and gave It His Gurgaddi instead as is claimed by the other Sikhs. For more information on this subject please visit THIS LINK.

5. Do Namdhari Sikhs eat meat?

No. Along with alcohol, tea, coffee and other harmful diet, meat is not allowed to be consumed by a Namdhari. For more information on the issue of vegetarianism, please visit THIS LINK.

6. Why do Namdhari Sikhs shun wearing blue and black attires?

Blue and black clothes were the attires of Muslims, who were the arch enemies of the Sikhs. For more information regarding this subject please visit THIS LINK.

7. Why do Namdhari Sikhs perform Havan?

Satjug Sat, Treta Jaggi, Dvapar Pooja Chaar |

Teeno Jug, Teeno Dhrirhay, Kal Kaywal Naam Adhaar |

From the above Verse, it is clear that Havan or Jagg is the main practice of Treta Yuga (Although Raja Bali of Satjug is also known to have performed a 'Mahan Jagg'). While there is no doubt that 'Naam' is the main practice of Kali Yuga, one also cannot deny that a Sikh does not only Jap Naam but also adheres to the values of 'Satt' (Truth) from Sat Yuga, Pooja (worship of Satguru) from Dvapar Yuga and also Jagg (Havan) from Treta Yuga. These are the ancient practices that the Sikhs, and the Gurus, practised.

8. Are Namdharis 'Sikhs'?

The word Sikh is derived from the Sanskrit 'Shishya' which means student. To be a student there needs to be a teacher or Guru. Since Namdharis do have a teacher, they are hence students and no doubt Sikhs.

9. Why are Namdhari Sikhs also called 'Kukas'?

The Namdhari Sikhs, while listening to the Gurbani or upon the Darshan (Glimpse) of the Satguru would sometimes become ecstatic and let out a loud shout (Kook). Hence the name Kuka.

10. Why do other Sikhs outnumber Namdhari Sikhs?

Firstly, after Satguru Ram Singh Ji went into exile the Namdhari Sikhs were harassed and oppressed in every possible way. No five Namdhari Sikhs were allowed to get together anywhere. The Namdhari Sikhs were thrown into jails for doing Path and performing Diwan for five to seven years. Some got worse punishments being drowned in the Andaman sea and tortured in many ways. The Namdhari Sikhs were not even allowed to enter into the Gurdwaras controlled by the other Sikhs who were Pro-British. They were driven away just as their Straight Turban was seen in the distance. The Namdhari Sikhs were "outlawed" and called all sorts of names by the Sikh Mahants. This may partially be due to the incident in 1863 when Satguru Ram Singh Ji had declared the Nihangi Sikh Mahants of Anandpur as "non-Sikhs" right in their faces. Hence after Satguruji went into exile the Mahants saw it to be their chance to get even and started to label the Namdhari Sikhs as non-Sikhs. This sadly goes on till today due to the illiteracy of the majority of Punjabis. Secondly, The Gurdwara Sri Bhaini Sahib itself was under heavy surveillance and was searched every few hours. For fifty long agonizing years the heavy surveillance went on and the Namdhari Sikhs in every part of India, and abroad, that the British and its loyalists had their eyes on were oppressed. At such a time, to become a Namdhari was no different than becoming a 'criminal' or being imprisoned for life. Thirdly, a large number of Namdhari Sikhs were also later forced to be converted by the Singh Sabha movement of Lahore that had complete support from the British Government and whose many members were in fact Government officials. Hence with the financial and political support of the then British Government of India and with the aides they received from the majority of Gurdwaras that were readily used as preaching centers, the Singh Sabha Sikhs were able to do a 'Parchar' (Propaganda) with much ease and success contrary to the Namdhari Sikhs whose very existence itself was a displeasure for the Government.

11. What is the view of Namdhari Sikhs regarding other sects?

Namdhari Sikhs do not criticize or disrespect any other religion. God has created this world with different kinds of flowers and animals and all living and non-living entities. We are all His creation and abide by His rules, hence nobody should be disrespected or molested. In fact the belief of the Namdhari Sikhs is that it is respectable for every religion to hold on to their beliefs and praise their founder/Guru in every and any way they wish as long as they do not insult others' beliefs in the process of doing so. In the past Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji Maharaj had organized several conferences to unite all Sikh factions and also to unite the major religions of India (Hindu,Muslim,Sikh), information about which may be FOUND HERE.

12. Did Guru Ram Singh admit He wasn't a Guru from exile?

This is one of the biggest, and most ridiculous, propagandas used by those who are agitated by the presence of the Namdhari Sikhs. One of them was Dr. Ganda Singh, a well revered historian in the Singh Sabha Sikh community, who decided to challenge the authenticity of the Namdhari Sikhs and perhaps to try and convince the Namdhari Sikhs themselves that they were not the Sikhs of the Satguru. However, Dr. Ganda Singh failed to do what he wanted in the worst possible way. Each of his books, namely 'Kukia Dia Vithia' and 'The Sikh Review - The succession theories', were thoroughly and completely answered back by Giani Mehar Singh Kanpur in his two books, namely 'Koorhr Na Puchay Sach Nu Saw Gharhrat Gharhriay' and 'Purakh Guru', in such a way that no word was heard from Dr. Ganda Singh ever since. Nevertheless, due to the fact that the Namdhari Sikhs are cultured to be peace loving, they do not brag about such victories or promote such kinds of argumentum or debating books to entertain the crowd or hurt anyone's feelings. Hence this entire myth of Guru Ram Singh realizing He wasn't a Guru upon reaching Rangoon is still sadly afloat and the ignorant and innocent Singh Sabha preachers who have no clue what so ever that such a propaganda was a complete hoax still continue to unknowingly fool the public. Moreover, this clearly shows the level of desperation Dr. Ganda Singh was in for trying to use the Word of the Satguru against Himself. Therefore it must be clarified once and for all that the Satguru never 'admitted' to not being the real Guru or 'confessed' that the true Guru was the Granth Sahib or any such thing as is falsely claimed by Dr. Ganda Singh and other Singh Sabha propagators. It is in fact true that the Guru did, in many a Hukamnamas, praise His Sikhs for their bravery and modestly call Himself as not being worthy as a Guru, but Dr. Ganda Singh has used the cheapest trick in the book of telling 'half truth' and only published the portions of the Hukamnamas where the Guru wrote He's not a Guru to fool the readers. Worse yet, Dr. Ganda Singh even fabricated many other portions of Hukamnamas that no Namdhari Sikh has ever seen in order to portray his false propaganda. Another important point is that if in fact the Satguru admitted to the Sikhs via a Hukamnama that He was not the real Guru, then what could be the reason for the Namdhari Sikhs to not believe Him and go to the real Guru instead? Why would they remain His Sikhs and face unspeakable harassment, humiliation, poverty and torture? Hence it is clear that none of these propagandas is true.

13. Did Guru Ram Singh cut His hair/burn Granth Sahib/wear blue clothes, etc.?

No. The false propaganda that the Guru cut His hair and burnt a Granth Sahib was started by Jathedar Giani Partap Singh who was another revered so called 'scholar' in the Singh Sabha Sikh community. In his book called 'Kuka Gurudom', he claims that Sant Inder Singh Chakkerwarti, an esteemed Namdhari scholar, wrote that the Guru cut his hair and burnt a volume of Granth Sahib. By reading the answers to the several questions presented above, the reader should not at all hesitate to label such tales as mere hoaxes. For we are not talking about any other Bhagat or Sant, but the Satguru who had literally 'resurrected' the Khalsa and the status of the Granth Sahibs. Nevertheless, to be completely just, the book in which 'Giani' Partap Singh claimed the 'fact' to be written was thoroughly scanned. The result was unbelievable. Not because 'Giani' Partap Singh was right, but because it is unimaginable that someone could so wrongly interpret plain simple Punjabi. It is written in the book called 'Malvendra' by Sant Inder Singhji that once during His military years (prior to retrieving Gurgaddi from Guru Balak Singh Ji), Guru Ram Singh once worked Himself up to a state of spiritual bliss and ecstasy that He ordered His younger brother to burn His body to get rid of the 'Malesh Sikhi' (Pro-British/Corrupt Sikhism). After all the commotion the result was that the Guru ended up having some part of His hair burnt. No where is anything about cutting hair ever mentioned. As it can be clearly seen, 'Giani' Partap Singh has gone even lower than Dr. Ganda Singh in trying to achieve his pointless goals. As for the burning of the Granth Sahib, 'Giani' Partap Singh again tries to use the work of Sant Inder Singhji against himself, which is a sure sign of desperation, and after going through the page on which 'Giani' Partap Singh claims the 'fact' to be written, it causes even more amazement for the reader. It is written in the mentioned book by Sant Inder Singhji that when the Guru was once requested to compose Gurbani by the Sikhs, He in turn wrapped a Granth Sahib in a blanket and set it to fire. The blanket was burnt to ashes but the Granth Sahib was protected by the Grace of the Guru. No where is it written that the Granth Sahib was burnt. Again, 'Giani' Partap Singh has used his fuzzy logic to fool people. But these are nothing compared to our main star Dr. Ganda Singh who by mere observation of the picture of Guru Ram Singh was able to draw the conclusion that the Satguru, despite being dressed in white attires in every painting, was a Nihang Singh who wore blue clothes! He gives his reason in his book 'Kukia Dia Vithia' saying that since there was a symbolic Khanda (double edge sword) on Guru Ram Singh's Dastaar, the Guru must have therefore been a Nihang and wore blue clothing. The only response that can be given to such a claim is that if we had more people like Dr. Ganda Singh in the scientific community there would be no longer any necessity for paleontologists!

14. Did the Namdhari Sikhs tear pages of Granth Sahib to perform 'Patra Path'?

No. The Granth Sahib was respectfully and properly 'disassembled' and was to be 'assembled' back again after the prayer was concluded. However the Singh Sabha folks were rather more excited in causing strife in the Sikh community than peace and falsely wrote in their papers that the Namdhari Sikhs were tearing their Guru apart. This is plain falsehood that some shameless journalists use to sell their papers and some principle-less Singh Sabha propagators put forth to the public's eyes to cause anger, resentment, misunderstandings and wrong impressions.

15. What was the role of Namdhari Sikhs after 1872?

While some Sikh groups try to portray the Namdhari or Kuka Movement as a thing in the past that was somehow, according to them, 'succeeded' by the Singh Sabha Movement, this claim is far from truth. As mentioned above, after Guru Ram Singh's exile in 1872, the Namdhari Sikhs throughout the land suddenly became hunted men. Their congregation and very existence itself was outlawed by the British. Yet the Sikhs never stopped fighting for their cause. The Namdhari Sikhs participated in almost every campaign organized in protest of the British one can think of, including the massacre of Jallian Wala Bagh in which hundreds of Namdhari Sikhs and prominent leaders were present despite of the eminent danger. For more information regarding this subject, visit the following links:

The Namdhari Movement - Sikh-Heritage

Namdhari Singhs & Dharma - SantKhalsa Dharma

16. Are Namdhari Sikhs sponsored/created by the Government of India?

No. The Namdhari (Sant Khalsa) Panth was established on Baisakhi day in 1857 A.D. by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji.

17. Do Namdhari Sikhs follow the Rehat Maryada of SGPC?

No. While some of the SGPC's Maryada maybe similar to that of the Namdhari Sikhs, the Namdhari Sikhs essentially trace their Maryada back to the original Maryada of Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji. The British had influenced every major Gurdwara in Panjab, bribed the Mahants and used them to control the public. However, the Gurdwara attributed to Guru Gobind Singh at Sri Abchalnagar (Hazoor Sahib, Nander), was the only Gurdwara which, due to its remoteness, had the original Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh well preserved. It was that very Maryada of the Tenth Guru that Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji sent His trusted Sikh, Bhai Rai Singhji, to retrieve and spread throughout Panjab in the form of the Namdhari Panth.

18. Did Guru Ram Singh leave His body in 1885?

No. There has never been any genuine proof, physical or documental, produced by the British Government regarding this issue. For more information regarding this subject, CLICK HERE.

19. Why did the lineage of the Gurus continue when Guru Ram Singh is still alive?

To give His Sikhs the moral support and much needed guidance during the distressful times when the Namdhari Sikhs had sadly become hunted men, Satguru Ram Singh Ji sent a Hukamnama from Burma through which He appointed His younger brother, Baba Budh Singh Ji - Whose Name was changed to Guru Hari Singh Ji, to guide the Sikhs until His much expected return as ordained by Guru Gobind Singh Himself. The duty of looking after the Sikhs was then passed on to Satguru Partap Singh Ji and then to the present Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji.

20. Do Namdhari Sikhs give Amrit to women?

Yes. While it is true that the original Maryada of Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji did not allow women to receive Khande Da Pahul and become Amritdharis, the benevolent Satguru, in His 12th Incarnation, had for the first time blessed women with Amrit from the Khanda (Double-Edge-Sword) on the Pooranmashi day in June 1858 A.D. at a village called 'Siarhr'. Only after that historical event were women officially initiated into the Khalsa Panth as Amritdharis. For more information on this subject, CLICK HERE

21. Why is the Namdhari Anand Karaj different than that of other Sikhs?

As with the initiation of women into the Khalsa Panth, the Khalsa Anand Maryada, or Anand Karaj, was created by the order of Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji on June 3rd, 1863 A.D. at the village called 'Khote'. While today some Sikh groups claim that it was invented by some other sect, the prominent respected Sikh historian of the late 1800's, Giani Gian Singhji, author of the epic 'Panth Parkash' who spent an entire life time probing into the history of the Sikh Panth, had in fact very clearly written in one of his work, namely the 'Bhupindranand', that the Anand Karaj was pioneered by no one else but Satguru Ram Singh Ji. In Giani Gian Singh's own words, the other Sikhs have merely copied the Maryada from the Kukas, hence they should be thankful to Satguru Ram Singh for inventing the system. While the reading of Gurbani (Four Lawans) during Anand Karaj was copied from the Maryada of Namdhari Sikhs, to give it a different look, the Agni (Fire) was replaced with the Sri Aad Granth Sahib by the other Sikhs and so is the addition of several marital functions & celebrations prior to and after the marriage. Hence the difference. For more information on this subject, CLICK HERE

22. Why is the Namdhari Ardas different than that of other Sikhs?

It has come to notice that sometimes the other Sikhs, unable to find any other flaw, try to use the Ardas as a tool to dismiss Namdhari Sikhs from their ideology of Sikhism. It is wrongly claimed by the them that the Namdhari Sikhs recite 'Vaar Sri Bhagautiji Ki Patshahi Barvi', which gives the reader the idea that Namdhari Sikhs do not have any respect for Gurbani and change it according to their will. This baseless claim is again far from truth. The Namdhari Sikhs' first sentences of the Ardas are as follow: 'Ek Ongkar. Sri Vaihguru Ji Ki Fateh. Sri Bhagauti Ji Sahai. Patshahi Barvi.' Hence the false claim can be easily dismissed. It would also not be out of place to remind the other Sikhs to look at their own Ardas before making comments about others since the Gurbani of Chandi Di Vaar, from which the Namdhari Sikhs and the other Sikhs both employ the format, has no mention what so ever about the Name of Guru Gobind Singh and in fact the Granth Sahib Itself was added to the Ardas of the other Sikhs only after the creation of the Singh Sabha Movement. To support this claim, the reader may take a look at a picture of an old Gutka's Ardas section published in 1897 by visiting these links: Pic1, Pic2, Pic3.

23. Were the Namdhari Sikhs tied to cannons at Malerkotla?

No. This false claim has been spread around by the many Singh Sabha Sikhs in order to discredit the Namdhari Sikhs of their courage and bravery of being the only Sikh Movement that was ready to take the law in its own hands in order to restore the purity of the sanctity of one of Sikh Faith's most important shrine, the Sri Harimandir Sahib and several other Gurdwaras. From the works of Giani Gian Singh (Respected historian and eyewitness to the massacre of Namdhari Sikhs at Malerkotla) and the reports of Bibi Khem Kaur and Bibi Ind Kaur (Members of the Namdhari Soldiers who attacked Malerkotla but were released because of their gender) the correct conclusion can be made that the Namdhari Sikhs stood with their chests facing the cannon and in fact fought with one another to be the first to be blown by cannons. Apart from it being impossible for a person to be tied to the mouth of a cannon, it is also worth noting that the Namdhari Sikhs, who followed the strict Rahet Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh and were pure Khalsas, did not allow the Englishmen or their stooges to touch them, and didn't even use their leather ropes, when the four Namdhari Sikhs became Shaheeds at Amritsar, hence how would it be possible that the Namdhari Sikhs would have allowed the Englishmen or their stooges to tie them to their cannons at Malerkotla? For more information regarding this subject CLICK HERE.

Got a question that should be added to the list? CLICK HERE.

[Guest]

fatehsingh... one question

at the end of the namdhari ardas you say

"satguru ram Singh naam chaddi kala tere bhane sarbat da bhala"

whereas sikhs say "nanak naam chardi kulla tere bhanne sarbat da bhala"

seeing as namdharis interchange the name of sri guru nanak dev ji with that of ram singh... does that mean ram singh takes more precendence over sri guru nanak dev ji? :?

and also - seeing as you use the name of who you see as the 11th guru... does that make ram singh any different from all previous gurus... in that the jot within all previous gurus was different to the one inside satguru ram singh??

hope ya can clear up these queries... thanks

[fatehsingh]

seeing as namdharis interchange the name of sri guru nanak dev ji with that of ram singh... does that mean ram singh takes more precendence over sri guru nanak dev ji? :?

How does this has anything to do with one Guru being more important the other or anything as such? I don't know about the mainstream Sikhs but Namdhari Singhs do not differentiate between Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh or any other Guru in the previous or present Yuga. 'Satguru Ram Singh Naam Chardi Kala... ' was changed later by the Namdhari Sikhs because He was the sole inspiration for them to withstand the harassment from the Government and its supporters. It is something done out of love, just like how the mainstream Sikhs created 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki..' You should understand I hope.

and also - seeing as you use the name of who you see as the 11th guru... does that make ram singh any different from all previous gurus... in that the jot within all previous gurus was different to the one inside satguru ram singh??

hope ya can clear up these queries... thanks

Can you clarify a bit please? That paragraph does not make any sense to me at all.

Fateh Singh

[Guest]

the lineage of guruship started from sri guru nanak dev ji - so by saying that blessings are from ram singh... u are really dismissing the previous 10 gurus if u understand what im saying

if you read shri guru granth sahib - no matter which paatshah authored gurbani... whether it be mahala 1...2..3...4....5....or 9.. you will see "O Nanak"... reffering that it is the teachings of and only of sri guru nanak dev ji maharaj... the divine teachings that pehle paatshah laid down was preached by all subsequent gurus - the same jot/light/spirit/divine teachings were the same of all gurus... the mahala just shows the physical embodiment of each guru...

if you say ram singh chardi kulla tere bhane sarbat da bhalla.... does this mean.... that it isnt the bhalla of sri guru nanak dev ji?.. or that the teachings of ram singh were different then that of pehle paatshah cos in essence you are not starting from the root of all sikhi teachings..

i have jus one more question if you could please clear it up for me

the 4 deadly sins as stated by naamdhari sikhs are.. killing of a brahmin.. killing of a cow... giving your daughter away with a dowry and there was soemthing else which i forgot..... IF this is correct ... naamdharis are very strict vegetarians.... so shouldnt the sin be killin any animal rather then having the hindu thinking that the cow is the most sacred animal..... and the killin of a brahmin makes me think that a lower castes life is not as important...

ill read and reply in the morning cos im goin sleep now... lookin forward to ur replies... if u dont understand wat i said again please ask me to rephrase

thanks

[fatehsingh]

Steel Bangle

I already explained the first question. Try reading the answer again with an open mind.

If I say 'Guru Gobind Singh Naam Chardi Kala..' or 'Guru Amardas Naam Chardi Kala..' does it make ANY difference? To you perhaps but not for Namdhari Singhs. This is a matter of faith.

As for the four deadly sins, those were accepted by the common Sikh population of the time and not just Namdhari Sikhs. The source from where you read it (Hopefully the translation of Panth Parkash) should have clearly mentioned that the Guru only said to the Mahants to prove that He commited any of the four deadly sins and He'd pay the fine they begged for if they could. He did not mention each of the sins but the Mahants were able to understand what He meant so it is clear that it wasn't the four deadly sins in the Namdhari religion but something that was widely accepted at the time.

Again, so that there's no DOUBT left, the Guru, by mentioning the 4 deadly sins which were accepted by the Sikhs of the time (There were no Singh Sabhias hence no hate/discrimination against Hindus - as it can be seen that the Sikhs and Hindus both filed complaints with the Government for opening slaughter houses near the Gurdwaras) proved to the Mahants that He had nothing to hide and did not do anything wrong.

Hope you have a better researched question.

Fateh Singh

[Gupt Singh]

dear mr fateh singh ji,

i see that alot of the evidence for further gurus and whatnot is based round panth prakash and other such texts....but these were written in the mid 1800s! if we looks at the bhatt vahees (and pand vahees, but i dont know them well) which are the only surviving, authentic accounts remaining, we see NO mention of further gurus, and we see things like you SHOULD wear blue (which contradicts what you said) etc

do u know of any primary sources from gurus times which is inline with naamdhari thinking?

oh and 1 other thing (im a veggie) and you seem pretty knowledgable.....could you or someone else explain that "only fools argue over flesh" shabad in SGGS? ive heard it is addressed at some dodgy yogis who wont even eat youghurt....but ive never really heard a very good explanation.....cud u enlighten me?

[jsb]

fateh fatehsingh!

i do have two questions.. my knowledge is very limited, and i was hoping you could answer them.

what is havan?

how is the naamdhari anand karaj different? what is done differently?

[fatehsingh]

Khalsa Soulja

First of all let me make it clear that I AM NOT HERE TO QUESTION YOUR GURU OR PROVE THAT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG. So I don't want to go much into arguing over the fact that was Granth Sahib given Gurgaddi or not. At least 2 Namdhari web sites have in depth information about this which is based on well over 20 historical sources written BEFORE Panth Parkash. I don't want to touch this as it will explode into an argument and no one will benefit.

As for the Bhatt Vahis, the newly printed ones are not reliable at all. In fact hardly any historian had used it to claim that Granth Sahib was Guru. Even Dr. Ganda Singh, in his desperate attempts that forced him to even use Namdhari Singh's own works against themselves, did not use it so it is quite clear about its authenticity.

As for other sources that are inline with the Namdhari Maryada, Sri Gurpartap Suraj is one such book that even goes into great detail about Devi Puja and wearing of white clothes and performing Havan etc.

You raised an interesting point about wearing blue clothings. Consult the Sri Aad Granth Sahib and see if blue and black clothings are the attires of Muslims or not. If it is (and it is), then why should Sikhs, who are by all means total opposite of Muslims, wear it?

As for the mentioned Shabad, what is it that you don't understand? It is clear isn't it that Guruji is speaking out against discrimination towards meat eaters the way the Pundit was doing? (Making fun of meat eaters etc.) But ofcourse that doesn't mean, in my opinion, that Guruji is advocating meat eating. Only speaking out against discrimination and hate.

Fateh Singh

[fatehsingh]

fateh fatehsingh!

i do have two questions.. my knowledge is very limited, and i was hoping you could answer them.

what is havan?

how is the naamdhari anand karaj different? what is done differently?

Havan, also called Jagg or Yagya is basically a ceremony that involves fire and in the case of Sikhs (Other than the mainstream Sikhs) also the recitation of Gurbani. Almost every other Sikh historian (Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, etc.) talk in great detail about the performance and benefits of Havan which can be briefly explained as being very similar to doing Naam Simran. There's no clear way of explaining it in text. It's something only experiencing can tell. Same thing like Guru's Darshan or doing Naam Simran.

As for the Anand Karaj, Namdhari Singhs do not walk around the Granth Sahib but the Havan (Fire) instead like the Hindu practice. A separate place is arranged for the placement of Sri Aad Granth Sahib with a canopy over It. Also there is no partying or expensive celebrations allowed before or after the marriage. The Anand Karaj was basically invented so that the corrupt Brahmins of the time would not be able to make marriage ceremonies their major source of income and rip off the people as they were doing. It also greatly helped the poor Sikhs who were absorbed in practice of dowry and this in turn also helped saved many female infants' lives who would have otherwise been killed for the fear that the parents would not have enough money to arrange their weddings.

The Namdhari-world.com website has some good information and pictures of Namdhari Anand Karaj. Go to the page and its under the menu 'Kuka's Faith'.

Fateh Singh

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Quick question: What are your views on the following composition of Bhai Nand Lal Sahib:

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....BA?OpenDocument

__________________________________________________________

Excerpts from Rahit Naama Bhai Nand Lal

What were the last commandments of Guru Gobind Singh before merging into the Infinite?

Articulation of Bhai Nand Lal

Dohira

What you have stated, Oh My Gurdev Master, `come to seek my vision,'

Please enable me to understand, how can we pursue the same.(9)

Articulation of Sri Guru Jee

Dohira

Assiduously listen Nand, there are three entities of mine,

And these, you comprehend, are Transcendental, Attributive and the Guru's Shabad, the Celestial Word.(10)

Chaupeyi

Only one Perception, which is beyond all the attributes,

Which has been expounded many a time in Vedas,(11)

And knowing all the thoughts, prevails through out,

And is indivisible like water,(12)

Deem (that) written on each of your body-hair,

And the factual pronouncement I make to you for veracity:(13)

The Sikh desirous of Guru's Darshan,

Should go and have the Darshan of Granth Jee,(14)

After ablution at the ambrosial hour,

And, auspiciously, undertake its circumambulation,(15)

Dohira

With folded hands be seated, seeking my audience,

And with mind lodged in Guru Granth Jee, listen to the celestial pontification.(16)

Chaupeyi

Hearing the Shabad with concentration, and by putting mind into Guru,

Listen and make others to heed to Guru's enlightening Shabad.(17)

One who wants to communicate with me,

He may read, listen to and ponder over Granth Jee.(18)

Ones who aspire to listen to my sermons,

Diligently, should read and recite Granth Jee.(19)

Deem Granth Jee as my embodiment,

And concede to no other perception.(20)

My Sikh is my third embodiment,

Who remains imbued in the essence of Gurbani.(21)

One who puts confidence and affection upon the Guru's Shabad.

He, always and ever, achieves the vision of the Guru.(22)

He should revel in listening and recounting Guru's Shabad,

And with full concentration read Jap Jee Jaap.{23)

Go and espy the Guru's Portal,

And discard the diversionary sanctuaries.(24)

With zeal serve the Sikhs of the Guru,

After relinquishing all the ego from his mind.(25)

One who manifests in these actions,

That Sikh recognises my manifestation.(26)

Dohira

That Sikh of Guru gets acceptance, which performs the service,

And the one who surrenders through mind, body and soul, becomes prominent server of mine.(27)

The service of such a Sikh of Guru is approved by me,

And, listen Nand earnestly, this is the way, the heaven is secured.(28)

Excerpts from Pritpal Singh Bindra?s forthcoming book in English, ?Kalaam-e-Goya? to be published by Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh. <bindra@home.com>

[fatehsingh]

Rahitnama and Tankhahnama and few others that were written in Punjabi are NOT works of Bhai Nand Lal. This is clearly mentioned in the Mahan Kosh of Bahadur Bhai Kahn Singhji Nabha. Please search the word 'Tankhahnama' or 'Nand Lal'.

Same goes to Agya Bhei Akal Ki which is dissmissed by Bhai Kahn Singh.

AGAIN, PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I'm not here to prove to you that Granth Sahib wasn't given Gurgaddi or anything as such. Just to shed some light on the mythical theories 'some' mainstream Sikhs have about Namdhari Sikhs.

Fateh Singh

[malwadoabamajha]

neelee siaahee kadhaa karanee pehiran pair dhhiaan

The blackness of sin is erased by my wearing of blue clothes, and meditation on the Lord's Lotus Feet is my robe of honor.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Siree Raag

16

[malwadoabamajha]

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Kaanraa on Pannaa 1305

kaanarraa mehalaa 5

Kaanraa, Fifth Mehl

thattan khattan jattan homan naahee dda(n)ddadhhaar suaao ||1||

Making pilgrimages to sacred rivers, observing the six rituals, wearing matted and tangled hair, performing fire sacrifices and carrying ceremonial walking sticks - none of these are of any use.

This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Salok Vaaraan Thay Vadheek on Pannaa 1413

salok mehalaa 3

Shalok, Third Mehl:

hom jag sabh theerathhaa parrih pa(n)ddith thhakae puraan ||

The Pandits, the religious scholars, have grown weary of making fire-offerings and sacrifices, making pilgrimages to all the sacred shrines, and reading the Puraanas.

bikh maaeiaa mohu n mittee vich houmai aavan jaan ||

But they cannot get rid of the poison of emotional attachment to Maya; they continue to come and go in egotism

[Guest Javanmard]

Havan does not bring mukti but that does not mean that you can't do it! Tying a turban does not bring you mukti but there is no reason why you shouldn't wear one. The Havan tradition of the Namdhari come sfrom the Udasis.

[Gupt Singh]

about half way down there is a bit on guruship being passed to SGGS.

http://www.srigranth.org/introduction.html

the bhatt vahis arent authentic and gyani gyan singhs work is??????? phhhhhfffff. do u trust gyani gyan singh (i think it was him) when he said that guruji tried to sacrifice his kiddies to chandi and insulted his mother?

[Guest Javanmard]

iF SENDING YOUR SONS TO BATTLE MEANS SCRIFICING THEM TO CHANDI (GODDESS OF WAR) THEN YES, GURU GOBIND SINGH SACRIFICED HIS FAMILY FOR US!

[Gupt Singh]

no, in gyani gyan singhs work it claims that guru ji wanted to literally sacrifice his children to chandi, and was about to do so before mata gujri stopped him, when he said something like "you are no mata, you are..." (i forget what, but it wasnt very nice)

[Guest Javanmard]

tell me the verse and section, have you read it yourself?

[Gupt Singh]

nope i read it on this website somewhere http://www.gurmat.info/srec/

i think in the dasam granth articles...........u can have a look thru.....its a good read anyway (but VERY long)