Sacrifice At Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth

[Only five]

Fateh!

LOL, I should have known it was going to come to this. Yes, there was no need for Singhs to learn to hunt, kill, skin, and cook animals. Neither was there any need to learn shastar vidiya. Or actually get up and fight. The power of gurbani and naam did it for them because they were all spiritual giants with magical powers.

Matheen veer ji is right, this topic is completely and utterly pointless when people don't have the basic understanding that you can't learn to drive a car without actually taking a car out for a spin (you just have to do lots of naam simran).

K.

Cutting a head off is not hard. All you do is get one person to hold the legs and another while the goat is not looking or aware of what will happen give it one slice with a sharp sword. Remember your using the meat for only survival and it's not a everyday thing. Survival is the key word here.

Only some one ignorant will doubt Gurbani.

[Kaljug]

I asked you why do you have a double standard for animals and plants. Meat eaters and supports of Jhatka as every day use are the ones saying animals and plants are the same on the food line there is no different. So why do you have different ways of killing an animal. Why not use the same technique. It is your logic that is being challenged here.

LOL

And you are saying that vegetarians don't have a double standard for animals and plants?

Good lord, you are stupid. I don't know why I am bothering to explain anything to you because it is obvious that you are an idiot on a mission from God, but consider that vegetables do not have nervous systems and therfore do not exhibit pain.

I suggest that you read the article more clearly if you believe it says that a goat is equiavelnt to a banana.

K.

[Kaljug]

Cutting a head off is not hard.

Only some one ignorant will doubt Gurbani.

Go and cut off a head without flinching then tell me how easy it is. Please video it and put it on youtube becase I require evidence for your assertion.

And only an ignorant fool with an agenda will start throwing around the "but .. but .. gurbani can do anything!!11" when we are talking about basic facts.

K.

[Only five]

LOL

And you are saying that vegetarians don't have a double standard for animals and plants?

Good lord, you are stupid. I don't know why I am bothering to explain anything to you because it is obvious that you are an idiot on a mission from God, but consider that vegetables do not have nervous systems and therfore do not exhibit pain.

I suggest that you read the article more clearly if you believe it says that a goat is equiavelnt to a banana.

K.

Now the answer is in your post. So now your saying animal are not the same as plants.

Make up your mind here. And don't go with what best suit your arguement go with what you believe and then present that.

[Only five]

Go and cut off a head without flinching then tell me how easy it is. Please video it and put it on youtube becase I require evidence for your assertion.

And only an ignorant fool with an agenda will start throwing around the "but .. but .. gurbani can do anything!!11" when we are talking about basic facts.

K.

I don't believe in killing for no reason, wait gurbani tells us this

I have no agenda just presenting a side and your unable to bring a counter side to it, that holds.

Again humbly tell me which is higher on the food chaing a animal or plant or are they the same and if they are then answer the previous question, why the double standard for two food on the same line.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Only five

[Only five]

It's obvious what I am presenting here. And if you don't understand then let someone else answer that does understand the simple questions.

No need to get all emotional and have pms.

[Kaljug]

For hundreds of years, pooran Bhramgyani Mahapursh have gone to Hazoor Sahib, including Baba Nand Singh Ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, Sant Isher Singh Ji (Rarewale), Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, etc, and NONE have ever spoken against the Maryada of Hazur Sahib, yet they recommend vegetarianism themselves. we should learn from them.

Fateh!

Given that, in my experience, it is the vegetarian Singhs who are the ones of fanatical bent and whose thinking is so base that they interpret even the most sublime of panktis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a reference to not eat at mcdonalds, I am really beginning to wonder whether vegetarisnism has any spiritual consequences at all.

Judging by my brethren, it is best to eat whatever comes ones way without paying it any consequence.

The fact that there have been mahaan Gursikhs who have eaten chatka also and still attained spiritual heights, that there have been as many vegetarian spiritually accomplished ones as there have been omnivores (even in the times of the vedas), I don't know that it matters all that much.

Perhaps meat does dull one's spiritual faculties, but I think I'd rather tske that chance than turn into some idiot who reads Sri Guru Granth Sahib and sees a vegetarian cookbook.

Anyway, I'm ouuta this topic.

Edit: one thing is clear: if the Singhs ever go to war again, there's gonna be a hell of a lot of work for the ones who can actually skin an animal.

K.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Kaljug

[Only five]

Fateh!

Given that, in my experience, it is the vegetarian Singhs who are the ones of fanatical bent and whose thinking is so base that they interpret even the most sublime of panktis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a reference to not eat at mcdonalds, I am really beginning to wonder whether vegetarisnism has any spiritual consequences at all.

Judging by my brethren, it is best to eat whatever comes ones way without paying it any consequence.

The fact that there have been mahaan Gursikhs who have eaten chatka also and still attained spiritual heights, that there have been as many vegetarian spiritually accomplished ones as there have been omnivores (even in the times of the vedas), I don't know that it matters all that much.

Perhaps meat does dull one's spiritual faculties, but I think I'd rather tske that chance than turn into some idiot who reads Sri Guru Granth Sahib and sees a vegetarian cookbook.

Anyway, I'm ouuta this topic.

K.

Talk about presenting irrelevant information another way to give the run around.

The questions are simple and you're not willing to answer them-this can lead to only one conclusion. Which is you don't have an answer.

So let another answer. Your not God so be patient here. let others say or answer my questions.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji tells us how to live our life in every aspect. Guru Sahib is the True Guru.

[shaheediyan]

"Cutting a head off is not hard. All you do is get one person to hold the legs and another while the goat is not looking or aware of what will happen give it one slice with a sharp sword."

Your delusion is embarrasing to read. Are you still taking GCSEs by any chance?

[Silence]

"Cutting a head off is not hard. All you do is get one person to hold the legs and another while the goat is not looking or aware of what will happen give it one slice with a sharp sword."

Your delusion is embarrasing to read. Are you still taking GCSEs by any chance?

How would a fully trained shastar vidiya practicioner have any problem decapitating a stationary object?

[Kaljug]

How would a fully trained shastar vidiya practicioner have any problem decapitating a stationary object?

Fateh!

It's not the stationary object that's the problem, it's the fact that it is a fully living, breathing creature that feels fear and pain.

Did you know that in World War 2, it was only around 15-20% of soldiers who actually fired at enemy combatants? This is despite the fact that refusal to shoot would result in one ending up in front of a military firing squad for treason. Current estimates suggest that it is only around 2% of soldiers who are constitutionally capable of taking another life, despite receiving a lot more training than their WW2 equivalents. See here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5414/is_199811/ai_n21432288/

Now think about what this means when your forces are vastly outnumbered and you do not have the benefit of maintaining a degree of emotional distance by watching enemy soldiers drop through your rifle scope. How do you train your soldiers so that as many of them as possible are capable of cutting down their enemy and watching them bleed, wail, and weep for their mothers while you separate the life from their bodies?

Now, one way is to do as the samurai did and take your soldiers (and your kids!) out to practice beheading on human criminals, but when human heads are in short supply, animals are great second choice, especially when one can hunt them and eat them to survive also.

Regards,

K.

[shaheediyan]

To add, theoretical practice and drills are a world apart from the science of manipulating real flesh.

Cut, accuracy, speed, strength, angle, correctly holding shastar etc to target flesh is not as easy as people think (for those that have even bothered thinking about it).

The physical skill is difficult enough and takes time/abhyaas to gain, the mental skill (as touched on above) is an even more difficult hurdle to overcome, esp for your lay Singh.

[chatanga1]

the differeece between the animals and plants is their status in the food chain. the similarities is that they both contain "jeev-atma" which will on day enter a human body. no jeev-atma is higher or lower than any other. so you can say they are a similair purpose in life - that is to see out thier JOON in the body their atma entered, and they are different becasue they have different roles, physical attributes.

but when it comes to eating there is no difference. Only five, you must have heard the sakhi Uch da Pir, and the moghals bring meat for the Sikhs to eat and or Guru ji tells them to put kirpan thru it and eat it. Why couldnt Guru Ji have said to them just do meditation? And Nath Mal, in Amarnamah records Guru Ji telling the Sikhs to never eat halal. why couldnt Guru Ji just have said no meat at all?

and kaljug. the "recent" maryada of Taksal precedes the budha dal one. Taksal was ordained by Guru Ji himself. what was the budha dal one anyway ? one that Nawab Kapoor Singh created? or praps the singhs that decided to recreate budha dal in the 1940s?

[Matheen]

but when it comes to eating there is no difference.

There is a difference - meat is made of 5 tat - eating it has a spirtual effect of increased bhar (load /weight?) on one's head - it's harder to 'pay' for. Bhoot/preyt also feed on blood.

Nihangs do more paath than most others for this reason - they read many more than 5 Banis everyday, despite the fact that they only eat meat occasionally. Not paying off this 'debt' results in illness etc.

Guru Sahib has the power to give life as well as take it, we shouldn't imitate them. We should all just follow whatever the 5 Pyare tell us and not argue with other who may have been given a different Hukam.

[chatanga1]

matheen can you explain further on the lower spiriual ascension of non-vegs? i dont think it true at all. this is not true in my own experience.

[Kaljug]

and kaljug. the "recent" maryada of Taksal precedes the budha dal one. Taksal was ordained by Guru Ji himself. what was the budha dal one anyway ? one that Nawab Kapoor Singh created? or praps the singhs that decided to recreate budha dal in the 1940s?

Fateh!

And where pray tell is the earliest recorded Taksal rehat maryada? Bear in mind that some of the old Taksal jathedars were Nihangs also and felt that there was no significant differences between the two maryadas, and none spoke out against jhatka and sukhnidaan as the newer followers of DDT do.

In any case, the oldest rehatnamas contain plenty of evidence for jhatka being an accepted practice.

K.

[Matheen]

Fateh!

And where pray tell is the earliest recorded Taksal rehat maryada?

WJKK! WJKF!

The evidence comes from the fact that different Sampardas, which developed independently, have virtually identical Rehat Maryadas. Namely: DDT, Bhai Daya Singh Ji samparda (and its huge no. of branches), Bhai Dharam Singh Ji Samparda etc. This indicates that all these must have been given the same Rehat originally.

Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal wale mention something akin to this when they talk about seeing Baba Deep Singh Ji's own Gutka Sahib.

To be honest, even the Buddha Dal Maryada is not that different.

I'm fortunate enough to know some very old students of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, they state that while Baba Ji received Amrit as a young boy at Buddha Dal, they followed the Taksali Maryada once they joined Sant Sunder Singh Ji's Jatha. Students from Nihang Dals who learn Santhiya and Katha from the Taksal have no problem fitting in, and vice versa for Singhs from the Taksal who join the Dals to learn horsemanship etc.

As said before, these kind of debates are futile - we must follow the Rehat given by Guru roop 5 Pyare, wherever they may be from.

@Chatanga: Are you aware of your Spiritual Avastha and can you see the effects your day to day actions have on it, or your balance of karma?

Guru Rakha.

[Kaljug]

WJKK! WJKF!

The evidence comes from the fact that different Sampardas, which developed independently, have virtually identical Rehat Maryadas. Namely: DDT, Bhai Daya Singh Ji samparda (and its huge no. of branches), Bhai Dharam Singh Ji Samparda etc. This indicates that all these must have been given the same Rehat originally.

Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal wale mention something akin to this when they talk about seeing Baba Deep Singh Ji's own Gutka Sahib.

To be honest, even the Buddha Dal Maryada is not that different.

I'm fortunate enough to know some very old students of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, they state that while Baba Ji received Amrit as a young boy at Buddha Dal, they followed the Taksali Maryada once they joined Sant Sunder Singh Ji's Jatha. Students from Nihang Dals who learn Santhiya and Katha from the Taksal have no problem fitting in, and vice versa for Singhs from the Taksal who join the Dals to learn horsemanship etc.

As said before, these kind of debates are futile - we must follow the Rehat given by Guru roop 5 Pyare, wherever they may be from.

Fateh!

I would say that this is a sign that the rehat maryadas have their historical basis in one rehat rather than being evidence of the supremacy of DDT maryada.

By the by, Nihangs from the Dals have a stricter rehat where it concerns chatka than is common outside of their chawnees. For example, they will only chatka male animals, and chatka is forbidden to any Nihang Singh who is taking santhiya.

The difference between DDT Jathedars then and more recent Singhs who take amrit from DDT is that the old school DDT Singhs did not turn around and say that Nihang maryada was wrong when they became part of DDT. They simply followed protocol that was common to both DDT and Buddha Dal without succumbing to the pro-veg propaganda that is common in more recent times.

In essence, I am in total agreement that one should follow rehat prescribed by one's Panj Piaray because only they have any kind of authority to offer one any kind of advice about diet, but I get frustrated when Singhs from some jathas start badmouthing maryadas of other schools, especially when they have no idea what they are talking about, and especially when they are completely ignorant of the views of their historical Jathedars regarding the practice.

As to whether flesh dulls one's spiritual acumen, I think it is quite clearly the case, but I believe that it can be overcome if one lives the life of a Nihang (or a good Sikh for that matter) that is devoted to seva and bhagti. However, this is only the case if one treats chatka flesh as mahaprashad and not just an ordinary culinary dish.

Incidentally, what did Sant Jagjit Singh say about Baba Deep Singh's gutka? Is the gutka available to be viewed by the public someplace?

Regards,

K.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Kaljug

[shaheediyan]

Oh dear, that means all Inuits must be headed for Nark... what a crap hand they have been dealt.

Interesting thing today is - Nihangs, who get all the stick for being meat eaters, probably were the most restricted meat eaters back in the day due to the numerous rules they follow in regards to meat preparation and conditions etc, whilst your average Singh simply had to ensure he didn't eat Kutha.

? - DDT puratan maryada etc, they follow no meat maryada, which puratan rehit backs their stance on this - or is this maryada a recent Sant influenced innovation (not that there is anything wrong with that - as long as it is clear that this line has been chosen to be followed by this group).

[HSD1]

I thought that jhatka was a common practice. In WW2, sikh soldiers serving in greece and crete would give the heads of goats to the locals as the natives considered them a delicacy. It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the singhs did with the rest of the goat.

As for the plant/animal theory, proposed by only five, surely that means we shouldnt eat plants either then? These fundamentalist really cant come up with any good analogies. I suggest you keep your 'argument' on sikhsangat where the mods can protect you from rational debate.

Edited September 23, 2009 by HSD

[Matheen]

Fateh!

I would say that this is a sign that the rehat maryadas have their historical basis in one rehat rather than being evidence of the supremacy of DDT maryada.

I was using that point to demonstrate that the Taksali Rehat Maryada is not a new one. I don't think anyone should claim that any maryada is superior to another. I agree that it also points to a single historic Rehat.

Incidentally, what did Sant Jagjit Singh say about Baba Deep Singh's gutka? Is the gutka available to be viewed by the public someplace?

Someone asked them about Rehras Sahib, and them mention the Gutka Sahib. They have seen it themselves, but I don't think the recording mentions where.

[Matheen]

? - DDT puratan maryada etc, they follow no meat maryada, which puratan rehit backs their stance on this -

There is the seena-baseena oral tradition (including Katha), a Hukamnama from Guru Hargobind Sahib, plus the point I made earlier that different groups, quite independent of each other have virtually the same Rehat Maryada, which they all say is unchanged and passed from one generation to another during Amrit Sanchars.

Note that there is alot of prem between many of these groups and Nihang Singhs. Till today, Singhs from the Dals go to obtain Santhiya from various Taksals. The differences with respect to meat are put aside. Nobody forces their view on the other, and all are seen as children of the same father.

It is only in the UK etc that we get issues.

[Only five]

I thought that jhatka was a common practice. In WW2, sikh soldiers serving in greece and crete would give the heads of goats to the locals as the natives considered them a delicacy. It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the singhs did with the rest of the goat.

As for the plant/animal theory, proposed by only five, surely that means we shouldnt eat plants either then? These fundamentalist really cant come up with any good analogies. I suggest you keep your 'argument' on sikhsangat where the mods can protect you from rational debate.

I'm not going to bother responding to the post about what a person can do in a war and then someone brought up world war 2 stuff. Irrelevant stuff when it comes down to the question I asked. I can easily put the arguement we have modern weapons today. So blah blah about this irrevelant stuff. It's trivial and doesn't go anywhere. And the screaming about Inuits. Well if you want to bring this arguement, then also consider import and export. And if you still want to scream about it then it's wise to go talk to the Nihangs and tell them they will hit the gold mine living with the Inuits.

HSD, why shouldn't we eat plants either. What are you getting at. You might be right here. And I'd rather stay at both and just post the same theory in a different site http://tapoban.org/ , so let's see what they have to say.

So the question goes unanswered. Why the double standard on meat and plants when it's said by some(majority meat eaters) that these two food groups are on the same food line. Not one higher than the other.

[chatanga1]

first kalyug you said that DDT was a recent jathebandi and now you say that sometimes the nihangs were leaders of taksal. Make your mind up which one you beleive.

[chatanga1]

and its not justthe inuits.people that livein harsh places where tey have been born due to their karma ie in jungles, artic circles or even plac es like africa where rainfall cannot sustain a veg diet for the inhabitants etc. and farming in panjab only took off bigstyle when the brits ruled panjab.