Can A Sikh Do Namaz?

[Mr Sardar]

Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind singh were pirs for muslims, Guru Hargobind Sahib built a mosque for muslims (guru ka masset), sheikh farid is a pir of islam in gurbani, mian mir put the foundation stone of harmandir sahib down. Is it wrong for a sikh to do namaz? What of in the case of an inter-religious marriage would one refrain from namaz? to say allah is good from sikhi perspective to remember god. Further would be wrong for a Sikh to go to a mosque and do namaz?

Edited December 5, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

veer ji , appreciate your broad mindedness, since you are respecting the ibadat of Akaal known to muslims as Allah, but we also need to understand the islamic perspective before we do the ibadat or saadhana of Akaal in the islamic form of Allah.

the kalma says " La Illah, Illal lah muhammad rassol allah"

if we understand this message alone , we can then decide whether we should be namaz.

This can be translated as "There is nothing but Allah and muhammad alone is the Rasool"

Now if we are sikhs, we see Rasool in our Gurus how can we accept he islamic bani which will not recognize our Gurus?

Give it a thought, of course its your choice do what you think what is best.

Guru Raakha

[Silence]

There is only one namaz allowed for Gursikhs!

ਆਸਾ ॥

Āsā.

Aasaa:

ਹਮ ਮਸਕੀਨ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਜਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

Ham maskīn kẖuḏā▫ī banḏe ṯum rājas man bẖāvai.

I am Your humble servant, Lord; Your Praises are pleasing to my mind.

ਅਲਹ ਅਵਲਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਜੋਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਫੁਰਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

Alah aval ḏīn ko sāhib jor nahī furmāvai. ||1||

The Lord, the Primal Being, the Master of the poor, does not ordain that they should be oppressed. ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਬਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kājī boli▫ā ban nahī āvai. ||1|| rahā▫o.

O Qazi, it is not right to speak before Him. ||1||Pause||

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰੈ ਕਲਮਾ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

Rojā ḏẖarai nivāj gujārai kalmā bẖisaṯ na ho▫ī.

Keeping your fasts, reciting your prayers, and reading the Kalma, the Islamic creed, shall not take you to paradise.

ਸਤਰਿ ਕਾਬਾ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥

Saṯar kābā gẖat hī bẖīṯar je kar jānai ko▫ī. ||2||

The Temple of Mecca is hidden within your mind, if you only knew it. ||2||

ਨਿਵਾਜ ਸੋਈ ਜੋ ਨਿਆਉ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ਕਲਮਾ ਅਕਲਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥

Nivāj so▫ī jo ni▫ā▫o bicẖārai kalmā aklahi jānai.

That should be your prayer, to administer justice. Let your Kalma be the knowledge of the unknowable Lord.

ਪਾਚਹੁ ਮੁਸਿ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਬਿਛਾਵੈ ਤਬ ਤਉ ਦੀਨੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥੩॥

Pācẖahu mus muslā bicẖẖāvai ṯab ṯa▫o ḏīn pacẖẖānai. ||3||

Spread your prayer mat by conquering your five desires, and you shall recognize the true religion. ||3||

ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਤਰਸ ਕਰਿ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਣੀ ਕਰਿ ਫੀਕੀ ॥

Kẖasam pacẖẖān ṯaras kar jī▫a mėh mār maṇī kar fīkī.

Recognize Your Lord and Master, and fear Him within your heart; conquer your egotism, and make it worthless.

ਆਪੁ ਜਨਾਇ ਅਵਰ ਕਉ ਜਾਨੈ ਤਬ ਹੋਇ ਭਿਸਤ ਸਰੀਕੀ ॥੪॥

Āp janā▫e avar ka▫o jānai ṯab ho▫e bẖisaṯ sarīkī. ||4||

As you see yourself, see others as well; only then will you become a partner in heaven. ||4||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਭੇਖ ਧਰਿ ਨਾਨਾ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

Mātī ek bẖekẖ ḏẖar nānā ṯā mėh barahm pacẖẖānā.

The clay is one, but it has taken many forms; I recognize the One Lord within them all.

ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਭਿਸਤ ਛੋਡਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੪॥੧੭॥

Kahai kabīrā bẖisaṯ cẖẖod kar ḏojak si▫o man mānā. ||5||4||17||

Says Kabeer, I have abandoned paradise, and reconciled my mind to hell. ||5||4||17||

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ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

Salok mėhlā 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

ਮਿਹਰ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

Mihar masīṯ siḏak muslā hak halāl kurāṇ.

Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.

ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥

Saram sunaṯ sīl rojā hohu musalmāṇ.

Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਬਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਕਲਮਾ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥

Karṇī kābā sacẖ pīr kalmā karam nivāj.

Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant.

ਤਸਬੀ ਸਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥੧॥

Ŧasbī sā ṯis bẖāvsī Nānak rakẖai lāj. ||1||

Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. ||1||

Also, Sheik Farid Ji was not a muslim and his pavitar bani is not islamic philosophy but Gurmat dhur ki bani, Mian Mir Ji did not lay the foundation ston e (http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,6465), mosque building was to show freedom of religion, like Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji giving shaheedi, doesnt mean we take up practices of others just because we say others are free to do what they want. The greatest worship of Vaheguroo is to do jap of gurshabad, and this only can lead you to Vaheguroo. All the rest such as namaz is kachi bani and will keep you in tregun maya, janam maran and surag narak. As shown in above shabads, only following Guru Sahib's hukams is valid prayer (namaz). Interfaith marriage is not allowed in Sikhi. Although the bajjar kurehit is sex and such relationships outside of marriage, the santanits who reject this still state that sex and such relations with a muslim is bujjar kurehit. so big no no. my friend i hope u are not being trapped by muslims. Stay well away! I think you are forgetting our ancestors were being forced to choose between death or namaz, i think you know what they chose and for a reason!

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Saṯgurū binā hor kacẖī hai baṇī.

Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Baṇī ṯa kacẖī saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī.

The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥

Kahḏe kacẖe suṇḏe kacẖe kacẖīʼn ākẖ vakẖāṇī.

The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥

Har har niṯ karahi rasnā kahi▫ā kacẖẖū na jāṇī.

They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying.

ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥

Cẖiṯ jin kā hir la▫i▫ā mā▫i▫ā bolan pa▫e ravāṇī.

Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥

Kahai Nānak saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī. ||24||

Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24||

Edited December 5, 2010 by Silence

[Mr Sardar]

I am actually trying to understand the link of Guru Nanak and traditions before Sikhi, and it almost seems that if we look deep enough in Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and other religions you will find the same religion Guru Gobind Singh established however there are changes which can be attributed to man made stuff. The same values which sikhi teaches are present in other religions as well (love for the divine, love for neighbour, etc.). One also sees that even in Sikhi majority of the people who call themself sikh are far from it, it is very rare to meet someone who can even be called a Sikh, with alot of amrithdharis so many are krodhi and far from being chardi khala. While I see people in other religions such as Chrisitans who through many reformaist movements have found peace- it seems like a huge struggle to find ones peace- one has to fight the whole world, and even our own religion, there are so many Sikhs who bring another Sikh down instead of uplifting, so many traps. As with Muslims and Chrisitians I have seen so many get so much peace of mind in there prayers and religion, while for myself I find peace but it is temporary usually disturbed by another Sikh. I personally feel to understand Sikhi to its best capability I need to isolate myself from so many Sikhs- such as some are nasher and sharabis while others are krodhi and hankari. It is hard to meet moderate middle grounded rational normal Sikhs for myself.

So basically from the above a Sikh can not do namaz because then that sikh would have to accept the prophet muhammad as the final prophet of God which conflicts with accepting Sikh Gurus. But there are sufi muslims who believed in pirs (such as Rumi) and still believe they talked with God- during Gurujis time Muslims accepted the Gurus as pirs and still practiced there own religion around them. I don't feel Muslims have trapped me just through so many years of past interactions even though I am a keshdhari Sikh, I feel alienated, not-appreciated, demonised, betrayed, back stabbed, segregated and hated by Sikhs where as this is not the case with Christians and Muslims.

Edited December 5, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[amardeep]

The Gurus never used the terms rasul or nabi, nor are these titles given to the Gurus in the persian hymns of Bhai Nand Lal.

From an Islamic sufi point of view Sikhi could be considered a tariqa, an order with a Sheikh that guides the individual above the sharia level. As far as I remember, the titles of supreme Sheikh and murshid are given to the Gurus in Bhai Nand Lals hymns which means that when Bhai Nand Lal presented Sikhi to a muslim audience he never claimed that the Gurus were prophets after Muhammad.

[dalsingh101]

It seems like people are trying to portray the faith in a way that is palatable to Muslims.

I too am getting interested in the content of Muslim prayers these days but to try and play down the fact that we believe our Guru's were vessels that enabled communication of God's hukam for us to appease Islamic theology is as weak as you can get.

Maybe we have to face the fact that for the vast majority of orthodox sullay, the belief that the Sikh Guru's were divine agents is in stark contrast to the fundamental belief of Mohammad being the last prophet.

We can get semantically technical about the definition of the word prophet in relation to the Gurus but that will not hide the Sikh belief that they were communicating a divine message to us. It seems like people are trying reconcile the crack here. Maybe it simply isn't possible if we are being brutally honest?

[amardeep]

Dalsingh:

There is a saying: Nanak Shah faqeer. Hindu ka Guru, musalman ka pir.

In the mystic traditions of Islam and "hinduism" it is only the guru/pir who can evolve you spiritually, and not the rituals described in the quran/vedas.

That the saying says Pir for the muslims and not rasul/nabi says it all. Its not "bowing down to Islam" as some would say but rather that the two religions are compatible hence on two different levels.

[amardeep]

There is nothing in Islam that suggests that wahi(revelation) is not possible after the Prophet. I think Rumi and Al Ghazali also claimed to recieve words of God and even in the Quran there are examples of non-prophets recieving revelations (the mother of Jesus etc).

[dalsingh101]

In the mystic traditions of Islam and "hinduism" it is only the guru/pir who can evolve you spiritually, and not the rituals described in the quran/vedas.

That the saying says Pir for the muslims and not rasul/nabi says it all. Its not "bowing down to Islam" as some would say but rather that the two religions are compatible hence on two different levels.

Sure, but we have remember, to many mainline Muslims worldwide the Sufi type Muslims are an aberration and going against Sharia tenets as they see them.

Edited December 5, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

Yep that is true. Im not saying mainstream muslims will believe in what sufis preaches however the four levels in Islam according to Sufism is mentioned in Gurbani, Bhai Gurdaas' vaaran as well as in katha by SAnt Maskeen Singh ji (katha on 5 khands).

[dalsingh101]

Yep that is true. Im not saying mainstream muslims will believe in what sufis preaches however the four levels in Islam according to Sufism is mentioned in Gurbani, Bhai Gurdaas' vaaran as well as in katha by SAnt Maskeen Singh ji (katha on 5 khands).

That's really interesting. Can you share with us?

I've been thinking, is Sufi the result of an interaction of Islam with Indic thought? I know it is probably more complicated than this but it is an interesting line of inquiry.

[amardeep]

No I think Sufism is much earlier since the many sufi tariqas trace their linage back to the prophet.

The four levels of islam are

Sharia

Tariqat

Marifat

Haqiqat

ਸਰਾ ਸਰੀਅਤਿ ਲੇ ਕੰਮਾਵਹੁ ॥

Make thou the practice of the Name and the religious conduct thy 'Shariat', the first stage of moral life.

ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਤਰਕ ਖੋਜਿ ਟੋਲਾਵਹੁ ॥

Make the search for God and abandonment of the world thy 'Triquat'.

ਮਾਰਫਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਹੁ ਅਬਦਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਹਕੀਕਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਮਰਾ ॥੩॥

O holyman, make the silencing of the mind thy 'Marft the third stage and meeting with God, thy 'Haqiqat' the fourth one, by which thou shalt not die again.

Ang 1083

In Bhai Gurdaas vaaran:

ਸਰੈ ਸਰੀਅਤ ਆਖੀਐ ਤਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤ ਰਾਹ ਸਿਞਾਣੇ।

sarai sareeati aakheeai tarak tareekati raah siaanay.

सरै सरीअति आखीऐ तरक तरीकति राह सिाणे ।

Many are there who give exposition to the Muslim code of conduct (shariat) and many go on debating on the basis of tariqat, the methods of spiritual purification.

ਮਾਰਫਤੀ ਮਾਰੂਫ ਲਖ ਹਕ ਹਕੀਕਤ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਮਾਣੇ।

maaradhatee maaroodh lakh hak hakeekati houkami samaanay.

मारफती मारूफ लख हक हकीकति हुकमि समाणे ।

Myriad people have become famous by reaching the last stage of knowledge, the marfati and many in His divine Will have merged into the haqiqat, the truth.

[Mr Sardar]

Many sufis ditch the haddiths as they were written after the prophet muhammad and the mainstream orthodox wahabis comes after the sufis themself.

[Xylitol]

Dalsingh:

There is a saying: Nanak Shah faqeer. Hindu ka Guru, musalman ka pir.

In the mystic traditions of Islam and "hinduism" it is only the guru/pir who can evolve you spiritually, and not the rituals described in the quran/vedas.

That the saying says Pir for the muslims and not rasul/nabi says it all. Its not "bowing down to Islam" as some would say but rather that the two religions are compatible hence on two different levels.

This doesn't mean that it's appropriate for Sikhs to follow Muslim dharm, it means that it's appropriate for Muslims to follow Guru Nanak's teachings.

[amardeep]

I have not commented either on whether a sikh should do namaz or not.

[Mr Sardar]

Do we have anything from history or granths which tell us that any of the Gurus did namaz or opposed namaz, Guru Nanak on his 4th udassi went to so many muslim natitons with a muslim bhai mardana if he did not do namaz he must have said something to oppose it and if he did there must be something more to it otherwise one falls into saying that Guru Nanak was a muslim and Sikhism is more or less a sect of Islam rather then its own religion. Guru Nanak carried a prayer mat and jug for ablution in his sakhi towards mecca, what for, would be the question, was it for japji sahib jaap and gurmantar jaap?

[amardeep]

Our rehitname tell us to not have one foot in two boats since that will cause the ship to sink ie. follow your own rehit proberly and dont mix with other religions.

[amardeep]

I do not think the Gurus opposed namaz since the various ways of worshipping God in different religions are praised in japji sahib and akal ustat however as Sikhs stick to one religion only. The others are accepted, however they are not for Sikhs. thats my take on it.

[Mr Sardar]

I am aware that with rehat it forbids grave worship (dargahs) and idol worship (murti pooja) but we can hear bhanjans/qwalis from other dharams.

I was thinking about the prospective future and goal that the "Bahai" religion states, which stem from Islam and give room for other prophets, there goal is the unification of every religion of the world and for world peace. Alot of religions say there religion will take other the world what if we are all right and that is what is going to happen, so many chrisitains are open minded even though they religion gives them little option for any one after jesus there are loopholes that may allow for latter day prophets and saints- but the goal of unifying religion.

One thing comes to be challenged in Sikhi is the whole amrit sanchar, if we consider this is the way how the jyot of guru nanak was passed in dehdhari form to the panth and guru nanak jyot is in shabad then we can see how the whole world may unite but it may come at the price of the destruction of the sikh faith via it amrit sanchar- there are some prophecies that for tell that sikhi will fall and guru sahib will come to bring it back. But a utopia where everyone is ruhani- gurmukh-united with god- transfigured to states of the world being god like- where we all become almost perfect if not there- this may take generations of strive and perfecting society- yes society is falling in filth but it is also growing in spirituality and the awareness of the next generation is growing.

There are some new age theorists who say this is what we will embark on from 2012. The human calendar will change, man will stop war, come to peace, conquest will end and we will begin a new chapter of enlightened stage of humanity. Considering integration is a two way process we will have compromise as will other religions and inter-religious marriages are a step towards this.

Edited December 5, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Silence]

I am actually trying to understand the link of Guru Nanak and traditions before Sikhi, and it almost seems that if we look deep enough in Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and other religions you will find the same religion Guru Gobind Singh established however there are changes which can be attributed to man made stuff. The same values which sikhi teaches are present in other religions as well (love for

the divine, love for neighbour, etc.).

This is incorrect. The main teaching of Sikhi is Naam, the rest of the religions on the other hand are totally devoid of true Gurmat naam, the only thing that can save you and give you peace. If all the other factors are present there in the other religions, but there is no naam, then as gurbani says those other things are all absoultley useless without naam. No religion can do anything for anyone, only becoming a Sikh of the true Guru, receiving naam and doing kamayee of this naam can we achieve ANYTHING (Vaheguroo,peace, salvation, mukti, freedom from births and deaths etc.) also read this excerpt from a book by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji on supposed equality of other religions with Sikhi http://www.sikhism101.com/node/134

One also sees that even in Sikhi majority of the people who call themself sikh are far from it, it is very rare to meet someone who can even be called a Sikh, with alot of amrithdharis so many are krodhi and far from being chardi khala. While I see people in other religions such as Chrisitans who through many reformaist movements have found peace- it seems like a huge struggle to find ones peace- one has to fight the whole world, and even our own religion, there are so many Sikhs who bring another Sikh down instead of uplifting, so many traps.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥

Kabīr sācẖā saṯgur ki▫ā karai ja▫o sikẖā mėh cẖūk.

Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault?

ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥

Anḏẖe ek na lāg▫ī ji▫o bāʼns bajā▫ī▫ai fūk. ||158||

The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||

What you say actually proves the perfection of Sikhi. You yourself are acknowledging that people NOT following the Guru is the source of all problems. There is no flaw in the Satguru or his teachings, the only flaw is our ego and our disobedience.

As with Muslims and Chrisitians I have seen so many get so much peace of mind in there prayers and religion, while for myself I find peace but it is temporary usually disturbed by another Sikh. I personally feel to understand Sikhi to its best capability I need to isolate myself from so many Sikhs- such as some are nasher and sharabis while others are krodhi and hankari. It is hard to meet moderate middle grounded rational normal Sikhs for myself.

You say that the followers of the other religion have 'peace', well what is peace? To the eye even atheists seem to have peace, because as they say, ignorance is bliss. The truth is, Gurbani states:

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਕਰਿ ਡਿਠੇ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥

Bin har nām na sukẖ ho▫e kar diṯẖe bisthār.

Without the Name of the Lord, there is no peace. Having tried all sorts of ostentatious displays, I have come to see this.

and

ਟੋਹੇ ਟਾਹੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਵਨ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

टोहे टाहे बहु भवन बिनु नावै सुखु नाहि ॥

Tohe tāhe baho bẖavan bin nāvai sukẖ nāhi.

I have searched and searched, across so many worlds, but without the Name, there is no peace.

Gurbani, 100% fact, proclaims that there is no peace without naam, therefore it is 100% impossible that those without naam (and that is all those who have not become Sikhs of the Satguru) can be at peace.

They cannot break free from maya without the Satnaam Gurmantar obtained from the Satguru and cannot escape from births and deaths either, how can they possibly be at peace? They are stuck in heaven and hell, births and deaths. Only those who take to the shelter of the True Guru can be free from all of these and thus obtain peace. I suggest you read the book 'Unditi duniya' by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, which covers this question about happiness for non-religious people.

As for your comment about sharabis, well they are not Sikhs, true Sikhs are those who jap naam with every swaas, or at the very least wake at amritvela and do solid ishnaan, abhiyaas and nitnem, look at those who truly do this (and I mean cold ishnaan, 3 hour continuous naam abhiyaas) and see if you can find the same problems in that person.

Have you obtained amrit and naamd drir from the Panj Pyare? If not, then do so and see the difference.

So basically from the above a Sikh can not do namaz because then that sikh would have to accept the prophet muhammad as the final prophet of God which conflicts with accepting Sikh Gurus. But there are sufi muslims who believed in pirs (such as Rumi) and still believe they talked with God- during Gurujis time Muslims accepted the Gurus as pirs and still practiced there own religion around them. I don't feel Muslims have trapped me just through so many years of past interactions even though I am a keshdhari Sikh, I feel alienated, not-appreciated, demonised, betrayed, back stabbed, segregated and hated by Sikhs where as this is not the case with Christians and Muslims.

You haven't found true Sikhs, as for not having found these problems in others, just search the news and you will find that Muslims are bombing and killing each other, so much for peace and unity. Look at christians, they are so divided in ideology that they have seperate churches for seperate beliefs.

Look at it this way, we may have jathas, but no one who believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Satguru has broken off to form a seperate sect or religion, however you will find those who beleive in Jesus as the sole messiah have split into Catholic and Protestant (2 seperate religions) and the approximatelye 38000 denominations! Sikhi is the most united religion there is! We may have problems but we still all stuck together under one nishan sahib! So it may seem like we have alot of conflicts but thats because with Guru Ji's kirpa we never took the easy route and broke off but insisted we stay as brothers no matter what differences!

Once again, I'd say forget even considering the kind of people you meet as being sikhs, and search out for the true naam rase hoye Gurmukhs, once you have met them, you will never look back. Take amrit, and take it where naam drir is given. You will see the truth, this is true sikhi, the rest is not. Sikhi of the Satguru is all you need, there is no peace in anything else, only in Naam, this is the ultimate truth given by Satguru Ji in bani. But to feel it fully you need amrit and naam drir.

Do we have anything from history or granths which tell us that any of the Gurus did namaz or opposed namaz, Guru Nanak on his 4th udassi went to so many muslim natitons with a muslim bhai mardana if he did not do namaz he must have said something to oppose it and if he did there must be something more to it otherwise one falls into saying that Guru Nanak was a muslim and Sikhism is more or less a sect of Islam rather then its own religion. Guru Nanak carried a prayer mat and jug for ablution in his sakhi towards mecca, what for, would be the question, was it for japji sahib jaap and gurmantar jaap?

I have already posted the Gurbani in my earlier post which answers this question, what more is needed? Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected that the 'namaz' as practiced by muslims as correct and stated the true way to practice it. On looking at the instruction given by Gurbani in those shabads, we find that the true 'namaz' is actually to follow Gursikhi.

One could, when talking literally, try to say Guru Nanak Dev Ji also 'took part' in the hindu practices in hardiwar (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Watering_the_Crops), but in reality it was to teach a lesson. Bhai Gurdas Ji di vara make it very clear Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji only went to mecca to preach Gurmat. Read it and see for yourself http://www.searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/1/pauri/32/line/1

Sarbatdapala, if you don't mind can you share roughly where you are from? I think what you need is true inspiration and to see the results of Sikhi in front of you, which can be found in sangat of true Gurmukhs. But also, do ardaas relaying all your feelings and questions to guru sahib and take a hukamnama, as Guru Sahib is the most important friend. And remember, when you get disheartened looking at so called sikhs, look to the perfect, unblemished, life of our Ten Guru Sahibs and see what real life is when following Gurmat. And read about sants and shaheeds. They are the proof to what Sikhi is.

Also, this is what Mohammed Sahib and Jesus Sahib have to say about Sikhi: (from se kinehia, biography of Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji Rampurkhere vale)

JESUS CHRIST, MOHAMED SAHIB AND BHRIGU

RISHI JI APPEAR IN A VISION

One day Baba Ji was in deep meditation when Jesus Christ,

Mohammed Sahib and Bhrigu Rishi Ji together, appeared before him.

Their faces were radiant and had spiritually bright auras around their

heads. After blessing Baba Ji with this vision Hazrat Mohammed Sahib

Ji spoke, ‘‘You are blessed and truly fortunate to whom Guru Nanak

Dev Ji has shown the direct and easy method to attain enlightenment of

Almighty God especially in this age of kalyug. The followers of the

Great Guru Nanak Dev are not deriving the full benefit of his teachings.”

After this, Bhrigu Rishi Ji spoke, ”In our times, we had to

undergo hard penance and rigorous spiritual austerities in order to achieve

enlightenment. The whole life of a man was spent in meditation and

making offerings to God and even then, union with God was hard to

achieve. The true nectar of naam which great Guru Nanak Dev Ji has

brought for his Sikhs is remarkable; even we could not obtain this boon

of naam. No doubt we amassed great spiritual and miraculous powers

through rigorous meditation and penance, including powers to curse or

bless anyone, but we were still deprived of the nectar of naam.”

Jesus Christ just said simply, ”It is my inner desire that my

followers one day adopt the path shown by great Guru Nanak Dev Ji.”

Saying these words, all three prophets disappeared.

http://www.vidhia.com/Baba_Harnaam_Singh_Ji_-_Rampur_Khera/Se_Kinehiya_-_English.pdf

Edited December 5, 2010 by Silence

[HarjasDevi]

"I don't feel Muslims have trapped me just through so many years of past interactions even though I am a keshdhari Sikh, I feel alienated, not-appreciated, demonised, betrayed, back stabbed, segregated and hated by Sikhs where as this is not the case with Christians and Muslims."

That is the saddest indictment of spiritual deterioration and corruption in a sampraday that I have ever read. How sad this truly is, especially since every human being is a spark of the Divine we call the Beloved One.

[laalsingh]

That is the saddest indictment of spiritual deterioration and corruption in a sampraday that I have ever read. How sad this truly is, especially since every human being is a spark of the Divine we call the Beloved One.

[Mr Sardar]

In my own opinion I would say religious extremism, fanaticism, separatism, inciting hatred, advocating violence and being an evangelical are signs of spiritual deterioration, such that lead to nindya-chuglia-hankar-haumai-krodh. I am aware that alot of people model Sikhi from some of the greatest gursikhs and sants but in comparison to the rest of the world they were still far from an international platform that today's world is demanding from organised religion. In terms of ones own spiritual journey it seems shanti and distancing ones self from so many samprada would be that goal towards purifying ones self and finding peace. Also AKJ do not strike me as being the truest of all Sikhs and I am aware that I have spiritually detorited partially my fault as well as looking up to other people for guidance only to be backstabbed in return so I do have a dillema of finding my sangat.

Edited December 6, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Bundha]

Sarbatdabhala,

It seems that you are on a slippery slope and if you are not careful you will embark on a path which will be hard from which to return. Gurbani says that Gurus word are like gems but we discard them for pebbles, it seems you are contemplating the same.

1. Guru Nanak dev Ji never took a prayer mat to mecca. The pothi sahib that Guru Ji carried was to write down the

durki-bani that would arrive from Akaal Purkh. Guru Ji visited Hindu places of worship as well as Musullman.

2. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was asked if Guru Ji would say namaz, Guru Ji says a shabad - “let contentment be your

prayer mat. . . . . . . .” this is the advice Guru Ji gave, hence Guru Ji never did namaz. If you are looking

for confirmation to do namaz you will not find it from Guru Ji.

3. Namaz means confirming your commitment to Mohammad, do you really want to do this ?

4. Your PAY-O (father) Guru Gobind Singh Ji orders you to recite panj banis in the morning, rehras and kirtan

sohila. Do you do this ? Does Guru Gobind Singh Ji at any point say you can also do namaz ? then why are you

embarking on this path?

5. Rehatnama orders you to pay allegiance to the ten Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib Ji only, there is no mention of

namaz!

6. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

You think the musalman are all peaceful and content???? Just take a look at the daily news there is frequent mention of some musallman who are doing fraud, or molesting women, three just got put away last week. One gang killed a shopkeeper in Huddersfield. They blow each other up every day in the east for God sake!

The Christians are fragmented with various sects and groups, none in contact with each other. The clergy are in turmoil. Priests are being accused of child molestation almost on a daily bases. The American Christians are so bigoted.

So you have encountered a few Sikhs who are not to your liking, does that mean you leave the most beautiful panth for namaz ? Are you so insecure in your beliefs ?

7. Moorkha, don’t leave you father for someone else just because of your own failings.

[jaikaara]

In my own opinion I would say religious extremism, fanaticism, separatism, inciting hatred, advocating violence and being an evangelical are signs of spiritual deterioration, such that lead to nindya-chuglia-hankar-haumai-krodh. I am aware that alot of people model Sikhi from some of the greatest gursikhs and sants but in comparison to the rest of the world they were still far from an international platform that today's world is demanding from organised religion. In terms of ones own spiritual journey it seems shanti and distancing ones self from so many samprada would be that goal towards purifying ones self and finding peace. Also AKJ do not strike me as being the truest of all Sikhs and I am aware that I have spiritually detorited partially my fault as well as looking up to other people for guidance only to be backstabbed in return so I do have a dillema of finding my sangat.

Veera if religious extremism of akj is not ok then what about the tablighi ? veer ji they dont even reply to a salaam from a non muslim.

the choice is is yours, if u feel u want to see enlightment take the path which shows light not what leads you further to tunnels of darkness where there is no come back.

go through this site - www.whyichosesikhism.com

veera u dont need any jatha for enlightment,by any chance if you are in hindustan and if you feel we can talk over it do pm me, or even if you are abroad you still can send me details, there are better sikhs all over the world its just that you perhaps dint come across the ones u felt would have helped you.