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You are making it sound one dances on only dirty sounds, you surely you have one dimensional view of this world. 

Bro, Daas never said that. Most likely, people do dance on good ethical songs too.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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what about those who do dance-style gatka instead of puraatan shastar vidiya?

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From Sri Aasaa kee Sahib jee

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ (465-13)

Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 4/3/2018 at 11:32 PM, paapiman said:

From Sri Aasaa kee Sahib jee

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ (465-13)

Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Gurbani cannot be bound by any context*, like it cannot be bound to any rules of grammar. It is a limitless ocean of treasures. This verse is part of a Shabad, which talks about raasdhariye. In that sense one can say that it is not directly talking about Bhangra or other forms of dancing, but Shabads have a universal message associated with them too.

This particular Shabad can be discussed in great details within its context, along with its esoteric/deeper meanings, but we would go off-topic if we do so.

IMHO, Bhangra/Gidha are worse than Raasan. At least one can learn something from a raas, from a spiritual standpoint. This was especially true in olden times, when lower castes did not have the right to attain religious education. Those people could see a raas on the avtaars, learn some basics of history and then maybe walk on the spiritual pathway. On the contrary, Bhangra/Gidha has minimal to none spiritual benefit and can make the mind fickle. Therefore Sikhs should definitely desist from indulging in these activities.

* - Having said the above, we need to remember that context, uthanka, grammar, etc are very valuable tools in understanding Gurbani.

Note: - Raas is play (or a skit) where actors play roles of historical figures.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥
First they dance and laugh (celebrate) and then when it comes time to leave, they cry.

They are not crying because they are dancing but because they have not attached their consciousness to Hari.

 

 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Gurmukh sings, gumukh dances, he attaches his consciousness to Hari.

 

A Gurmukh dances and has Hari on his mind, and so the dancing attaches his consciousness to Hari ji.


The most natural thing to do in the presence of Hari ji is to dance because the meeting with Hari is such a blissful experience.

Those who feel it deeply will find themselves dancing.



ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.


 

On 4/11/2018 at 8:25 AM, paapiman said:

On the contrary, Bhangra/Gidha has minimal to none spiritual benefit

Bhangra/Gidha may have minimal to none spiritual benefit especially how it is popularly done but it is much better than arguing on forums, which has negative effects on spirituality.

You can connect to Hari much faster through physical movement than through using the intellect.

Using the intellect, you are strengthening only that which impedes your capability to see the undivided, non-Dual Awareness.

To see the non-dual awareness, you must calm your intellect and enter your body and flow with the vibration.

 

By speaking and speaking nothing will come of it.

By flowing with the vibration the Lord of the Universe is discovered.

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1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

Bhangra/Gidha may have minimal to none spiritual benefit especially how it is popularly done but it is much better than arguing on forums, which has negative effects on spirituality.

Excessive arguments might have a negative effect on one's spirituality, but intellectual discussions/Gurmat Veechars (which often take place on this forum) are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

 

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

You can connect to Hari much faster through physical movement than through using the intellect.

That is why we have Shastar Vidya, Gatka, Physical seva (in Gurudwaras), Yoga, etc, within Sikhism. Again, they are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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2 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Excessive arguments might have a negative effect on one's spirituality, but intellectual discussions/Gurmat Veechars (which often take place on this forum) are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

That is why we have Shastar Vidya, Gatka, Physical seva (in Gurudwaras), Yoga, etc within Sikhism. Again, they are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

I respect your opinion and preference however you are using gurbani to prove something that it is not saying.

Excessive discussion whether about Gurmati or otherwise is not good for you. Guru Granth Sahib ji makes this clear.

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1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.

ਨਿਰਤਿ - This word has multiple meanings. Two of which are endless love and decision making process

Therefore, a more appropriate translation of the verse would be

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥

Your Servant has endless love for you and sings your praises

Or

Your servant involves himself in decision making process (indictating Gurmat veechar) and sings your prasies

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

They are not crying because they are dancing but because they have not attached their consciousness to Hari.

So, if a Sikh drinks alcohol to calm his nerves and then attaches (or tries to attach) his consciousness via meditation to Waheguru jee, will that be acceptable to Sri Satguru jee?

You are not looking at that verse from a broad perspective and thereby limiting its scope. Definitively attaching consciousness to Waheguru jee is a part of that shabad, but that does not mean that it is not condemning dancing along with it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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7 minutes ago, paapiman said:

ਨਿਰਤਿ - This word has multiple meanings. Two of which are endless love and decision making process

Therefore, a more appropriate translation of the verse would be

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥

Your Servant has endless love for you and sings your praises

Or

Your servant involves himself in decision making process (indictating Gurmat veechar) and sings your prasies

ਨਿਰਤਿ has multiple meanings but ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ only has one meaning and that is to dance.

There is a difference between Nirt  and Nritye. Nirt is not something you do, but something you have. Nritye (dance) is something you do.

Here it is ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ - Nritye kare - meaning your servant dances and ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ sings your praise.

If it was ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ - then it would mean - your servant sings your praises with love.

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.


 

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6 minutes ago, paapiman said:

So, if a Sikh drinks alcohol to calm his nerves and then attaches (or tries to attach) his consciousness via meditation to Waheguru jee, will that be acceptable to Sri Satguru jee?

Alcohol doesn't calm your nerves. It inhibits your consciousness.

So it would have the opposite effect for a sikh who is trying to raise his consciousness.

That said, alcohol in small doses can  be medicinal for someone who has raised their awareness beyond control.

8 minutes ago, paapiman said:

You are not looking at that verse from a broad perspective

I am looking at it from a much broader perspective than what you are giving credit for.

Because I am essentially saying that there are many ways of getting closer to God and dancing is one of them.

It would be a narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji.

That is what you are saying.

So its not me who needs to broaden my scope. It is you who needs to see that there are many approaches to realization of God.

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30 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

Daas has mentioned this before on the forum. Gurbani cannot be bound by any rules of Grammar. 

 

37 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

There is a difference between Nirt  and Nritye. Nirt is not something you do, but something you have. Nritye (dance) is something you do.

Please see Mahan Kosh (the seventh meaning).

https://www.searchgurbani.com/mahan-kosh/view

 

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.

Please listen to the katha of this verse by Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. Baba jee also clearly mentions that Nachna Thapna is prohibited in Sikhism.

Please start listening at 10:30 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_05_Ang_0347-0462/033--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.(Bhindran.wale)--Raag.Aasaa--Ang-381.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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38 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

It is you who needs to see that there are many approaches to realization of God.

Agreed that there are other approaches to realizing God, but this is a Sikh forum and our focus should be to propagate Sikh approaches towards the divine.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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41 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Alcohol doesn't calm your nerves. It inhibits your consciousness.

It depends on the quantity. Small quantity of alcohol can help a person to calm down. Even, some Jogis in the olden times consumed it to assist them in their meditation process.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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paapiman: Why don't you register some thing like: www.AnythingOrEverythingVsSikhism.com where you can just compare any/all things with box-wali-Sikhi??

From my personal experiences, it seems like the real Sikh religion is already lost. What we've now is the corpse and even we (so-called care-takers) are actually eating it. I always wonder what Guru Nanak would write about today's so-called Sikhs if HE chooses to come again and preach. I'm pretty sure that today's Sikhs will stone Guru Nanak about saying anything against their pre-conceived MIS-understandings.

But if you think about it: This is nothing new, every religion/stream/group starts from Real and then eventually with the power of Maya; it reduces to mere concepts which people use to debate but no-one is willing to dive into the deepths. That's how matrix works.

Someone really explained Why Religion is both good and evil...

Religion is the Wal-Mart of spirituality. Wal-Mart helps get global goods into pretty much every town, it’s easily accessible to all. People can buy goods with little effort. They can have a job whereas previously there were few jobs in town. But at the same time, Wal-Mart is a parasite that kills other small businesses, exploits its workers, and leads to the problem of slave workers overseas. Low Prices here comes with high price to living conditions elsewhere.

Same with religion. It has convenient books anyone can read, convenient answers, buildings you can go to, people who preach to you as you just get to sit and listen. It helps bring the potential for spirituality to MANY more people who otherwise would be too lazy or isolated (in terms of location or access to literature) to hear of it. Therefore it’s a mass solution that, ultimately, aims for quantity over quality. But the price is that other smaller, perhaps more spiritual streams of knowledge, can become denied to these followers.
For instance, someone becomes Christian… they get indoctrinated with the Bible, then are told Gnostics are agents of the devil. There, the entire stream of Gnostic spirituality has just been denied them. Thus they are like people who could once only crawl on their belly until religion handed them a crutch, then they were able to hobble around, but the crutch made them dependent so that they could never walk or run. It’s a help in the short term, that hurts in the long term.

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3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

It would be a narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji.

That is what you are saying.

Daas never said that. There are many practices which might be prohibited in Sikhism, but can bring a person closer to Waheguru jee. For example, controlled use of intoxicants, tantric sexual practices, extreme austerities, etc. If people (especially non-Sikhs or Nigure) want to try them to move ahead in spirituality, they can do so. Personally, I have no problem with that. 

Let's just stay on the topic, which Bhangra/Gidha Vs Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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4 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Here it is ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ - Nritye kare - meaning your servant dances and ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ sings your praise.

If it was ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ - then it would mean - your servant sings your praises with love.

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

 

Please see below for the arth done by Prof.Sahib Singh jee, who has used grammar for doing arths.

Nirat.thumb.jpg.d566f3e0262bc9a751e6357a2c1e6d37.jpg

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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8 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

 Arth of the above verse by Prof.Sahib Singh jee 

image.png

image.thumb.png.29c18e7595b85958063ae9b29ad560f7.png

 

Arth by Sant Gyani Kirpal Singh jee (Amir Bhandar Teeka)

Nachay.thumb.jpg.000eba35b778ef8e2d772289e1a33461.jpg

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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