Who's a real Sikh?

[Sukhi]

Hey everyone. For the past couple of weeks, I’ve been noticing a lot of people who make comments against Sikhs who cut their hair which are countered by these “monay†Sikhs by commenting on the fact that many amritdhari Sikhs are fake/pakhundee. All of this seems really insignificant if you think about things in a slightly different manner.

If you were granted a Darshan of the real Saroop of SGGSJ and could see all the Gurus in one form, what do you think would please the Guru more between the choice of a good human being and a pakhundee amritdhari?

What becomes more important, the amrit or the person on the inside?

Is your Guru going to be happy with you if you have taken amrit but are filled with ego and malignant thoughts?

Is it going to satisfy your Guru to know that you’re a great person, humble and modest and good in all senses of that word?

From my own personal reflection, I believe that it takes a strong combination of both of these 2 kinds of people to really make a person a true Gursikh. What I don’t understand is why people limit themselves to the one or the other. Taking amrit should be a step taken after you cultivate some virtues in yourself and fall in love with the Guru. If you haven’t formed that bond with SGGSJ yet, then you have no right in taking amrit and being a pakhundee bunda.

So, what I wanna know is what everyone else thinks about this. Obviously, not everyone is either a great person and a mona, or a horrid evil person and an amritdhari. I know a lot of people who are amritdhari and totally humble and great people, and a lot of monay who are simply bad to the core. But… I’ve seen this trend towards nice people who are monay and mean people who are amritdhari. I wanna know what’s goin on with this weirdness…

And I also wanna know what you guys think makes a Sikh a Sikh. How do we define Sikhi? And what role do you think the Rehatnama should have in determining who's a Sikh? Do you think that the Rehatnama is lacking in truly defining Sikhs?

I know I've put up a lot of questions, but I'd like it if we could go through and try an answer them.

[samosasingh]

Only the one that hails to the samosa chutney is real!! In this life and the after life. That is the vichaar all of you should be doing!!! Just my two cents. Good luck to all of you on your passport applications!!!

The One, The Only

Samosa Singh

[HeyDudesWassup]

Which Rehatnama is this? I don't know, aren't alot of Rehitnamas made up and only complicate stuff for me, I just believe in the Gurus, I don't see why I would have to follow Rehitnamas that are made up by sikhs and not the Guru.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Singing_Silence (Kaur)]

If you were granted a Darshan of the real Saroop of SGGSJ and could see all the Gurus in one form, what do you think would please the Guru more between the choice of a good human being and a pakhundee amritdhari?

You hit the nail on the head there mate.

[sikh_fauge]

excellent post veera!

i think the key is that everyones relationship with guru and waheguru is their own..its no ones business.

apart from hukam that we should remember gods name,share with others, and work honestly, i dnt sikh means much more..

all the amrit stuff is for a khalsa sikh..as far as im aware anyways

[Guest]

Hey everyone. For the past couple of weeks, I’ve been noticing a lot of people who make comments against Sikhs who cut their hair which are countered by these “monay” Sikhs by commenting on the fact that many amritdhari Sikhs are fake/pakhundee. All of this seems really insignificant if you think about things in a slightly different manner.

How could you expect "fantacism" do go away like this?? After all, this is part of kalyug. No dharma is safe. Every dharma is surronded by hard-liners of faith who would interpret their faith extreme even though messengers of those faith were against it.

If you were granted a Darshan of the real Saroop of SGGSJ and could see all the Gurus in one form, what do you think would please the Guru more between the choice of a good human being and a pakhundee amritdhari?

What becomes more important, the amrit or the person on the inside?

Is your Guru going to be happy with you if you have taken amrit but are filled with ego and malignant thoughts?

Most of these kinda people choose to take amrit just for show-off and even some take amrit to acceptance in the soceity so that people can do their upma.... without doing the cleaniness from inside first.

This reminds me of an sakhi of sant maharaj rara sahib talking about amrit. He said how could you expect to amrit to give you mukhti when there is still poision inside you and eating you.

Is it going to satisfy your Guru to know that you’re a great person, humble and modest and good in all senses of that word?

Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar went all over the universe to spread one message which is- Ik Onkar. Kirat Karo, Naam Jaapo & Vandkaie ChaKO.

From my own personal reflection, I believe that it takes a strong combination of both of these 2 kinds of people to really make a person a true Gursikh. What I don’t understand is why people limit themselves to the one or the other. Taking amrit should be a step taken after you cultivate some virtues in yourself and fall in love with the Guru. If you haven’t formed that bond with SGGSJ yet, then you have no right in taking amrit and being a pakhundee bunda.

I couldnt have said it better myself ... right on mate!

So, what I wanna know is what everyone else thinks about this. Obviously, not everyone is either a great person and a mona, or a horrid evil person and an amritdhari. I know a lot of people who are amritdhari and totally humble and great people, and a lot of monay who are simply bad to the core. But… I’ve seen this trend towards nice people who are monay and mean people who are amritdhari. I wanna know what’s goin on with this weirdness…

Well there is lack of understanding between two bodies- Mona and Gursikhs.

Mona Sikhs are sort of backing off because the experience they went through with some of hardliners sikhs.

I hope our sikh youth organizations can built up a special and more close relationship between them and non-sikhs and bring them close to sikhi by nirmata and pyaaar not by "Do's & Don't's". Dont preach them rule but preach them love and humbleness, importance of naam japna, importance of sat-sangat, sadhu-sangat. They should first change their inside first then attempt to do all these things.

There are lot of preachers out there who preach day and night long but they don't pratice themselves... i can't blame them either because they think from their point of views its a form of seeva...I would request them work to bring these virtues/gems of sikhi in them first then spread the naam of Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar and don't worry about parchar. Let the parchar of Guru Maharaj diae bhagats spread. Let their sugund(smell) of prema bhakti spread and effect people instead of bringing your own philosphy of sikhi of (Do's and Dont's) to the punjabi sikh youths.

And I also wanna know what you guys think makes a Sikh a Sikh. How do we define Sikhi? And what role do you think the Rehatnama should have in determining who's a Sikh? Do you think that the Rehatnama is lacking in truly defining Sikhs?

I know I've put up a lot of questions, but I'd like it if we could go through and try an answer them

Sikhi is the learner in the path of spirtuality or still looking search for spirtuality.

Lot of jatha and sampardha does use this rehitnama's but does not mean you should put rehitnama's as the first priority. There are way more important things to do before which is reading Siri guroo granth sahib ji and understand the message behind it.

Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar does not belong to amrit-dhari or even sikh. Some of fools from hindu community claim Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar was Hindu, muslim community claims that Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar was Muslim. Now some of the sikhs claiming Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar are only Guru of Sikhs. I m sad to say none of these fools understand the real message behind of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Guru Nanak Sahib Nirankar was a Jagat(world) Guru.. . His jot manifested in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Jagat Guru.

Anyone from any dharma, race, creed can read it or contemplate with it.

I know people through my relatives in india who are kabir panthis and sufi-panthis (baba farid followers) who did not took amrit. In my opnion, they are sikhs!!!! Because they have murshad( spirtual teacher). They will go to that Ikonkar where our sant/mahapursh to merge. No doubt. Its not like amrit-dharis (khalsa) will receive one higher khand than them. That will defeat the purpose of "Ikonkar".

They are sikhs of their murshad. Lot of hard liner sikhs would claim them they intiate amrit from Guru Maharaj ji even though Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar came after them with his corepeal being in this jagat. They should really learn history better than reading those scholary books.

At end of day, Sikh is a learner in the route of spirtuality with or without aim of being "Amrit-Dhari" thats up to individual as long as they have master or one to follow who have met Nirankar/pratma and merge with him.

Amridhari is also a learner in the route of spirtuality but with a intiation(amrit). Their aim is to be Khalsa that Guru Maharaj expect them to be.

Khalsa mera Roop Hai Khaas

Khalsa mein Karo Nivas

Khalsa is my ideal/special roop

In Khalsa I Reside. (Sarbloh Granth)

I hope this helps

[samosasingh]

I think Samosa Singh has hit it right on!!!!

[theturbanator]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, "One who keeps hair without having taken the holy Amrit is an imposter and a foolish sikh"; and that he shall not see him till he abondons his false apperance

bull chuck maaf

[guv]

sorry mates, but i'm too lazy to read through the whole topic thoroughly... i've skim-read it, & i just have 3 points to make.

1. why the obsession with labels? why must someone fit a certain description of the term 'sikh'... there is never going to be complete consensus on the definition of 'sikh', so trying to decide who is 'sikh' & who not is a futile exercise.

2. samosasingh... u smacked it!

3. say, "hello" to mr duck

[Khalsa4ever]

I think some forget the definition of Sikh. A Sikh is one who is willing to learn from the Guru. Calling yourself a Sikh doesn't make you one, especially for monay people who break the primary rule that Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee set out for us.

So to be a Sikh, you must at least TRY to to follow the rules of our Guru.

[karmjeet]

I think its about 20 yrs ago that bramhgyani sant Harnam Singh Ji rampur khede wale asked from guru ji how many total sikhs does he have in the whole world ? guru ji said he has only 1000 true sikhs on the whole earth .

that was still 20 yrs ago . now this counting may have decreased further due to kalyug . this was told by Giani thakur singh ji himself in one of his kathas .

i mean to say , sikhs are those who follow guru ji 's hukam .

"rehni rahe soi sikh mera o saheb main uska chera "

bhul chuk maaf

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear "theturbanator"

Please could you provide, for the benefit of all, the necessary reference from which you have taken this phrase, for it is "Sri Mukhvak Patshahi 10", then surely the quote should be easy to provide for the benefit of all.

Thanks,

SMS.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, "One who keeps hair without having taken the holy Amrit is an imposter and a foolish sikh"; and that he shall not see him till he abondons his false apperance

bull chuck maaf

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear "Khalsa4ever", please could you elaborate for the benefit of the forum on "the primary rule that Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee set out for us" and provide the necessary references in this respect.

Thanks,

SMS.

I think some forget the definition of Sikh. A Sikh is one who is willing to learn from the Guru. Calling yourself a Sikh doesn't make you one, especially for monay people who break the primary rule that Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee set out for us.

So to be a Sikh, you must at least TRY to to follow the rules of our Guru.

[theturbanator]

Dear "theturbanator"

Please could you provide, for the benefit of all, the necessary reference from which you have taken this phrase, for it is "Sri Mukhvak Patshahi 10", then surely the quote should be easy to provide for the benefit of all.

Thanks,

SMS.

yes i have gotten it from "Basic Principles of Sikhism" made by the Sikh Missionary College 1051, Kucha 14, Field Ganj, Ludhiana -8

hope that helps its on page 13 of that book if anyone has it under the amrit section

bull chuck maaf

[Sukhi]

so does this mean that sikhi is limited to making sure you have uncut hair and have taken amrit? is that all there is to being a sikh?

[HeyDudesWassup]

*edited

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

in these days, we wud rather listen to men and our own manmat than wat guru je has clearly left for us

peeavhoh pahul khanda dhar how janam sohilaa

vaho vaho gobind singh aphe guru chalea

pritham reight ye jan khandi ke pahul chakke

asoee singh pardhan avar na pahul jo lehai

in all religons u are baptized by some means

hindus do things like janoee for high caste, shave ure head, etc.'

musilamans do something with ure privates

christans bath u in holy water

guru nanak dev je used to give charan pahul, by washing their feet, and giving that water to the person that wanted naam from guru je, thus becoming their sikh, disiple

then guru je wud give them naam

guru gobind singh je under akals hukam

agaie paie akal ke

tabe chalou panth

khalsa akal purkh ke fauj

pargetao khalsa parmatam ke mauj

guru je created khalsa as akal ourkh ordered

vaheguru loved his khalsa, we are his army

so, guru je changed the baptism from charan pahul to khanda de pahul

guru je cut off panj pyayrae heads in front of the sangat( check ajmer sinsh eye witness report ajmer singh aka abdul trani)

guru je made amrit by recitng the following banis

japji sahib

jaap sahib

tva prsad swiaye

choupai sahib

anand sahib

guru je while reading those banis had been stirring fresh water in a sarab loh batta with a khanda while in bir assan

then guru je gave the 5 his amrit and made them live again

amrit is a must in sikhi

without it how will u get naam and gurmantar

wat the heck is the point of being a sikh if u dont have naam from ure guru

how can u be a sikh of any guru without having gotten naam

u need naam from guru je

to get naam u must take amrit

take amrit when u are ready to

but to truly become a sikh u must take amrit

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Sukhi]

so then this must mean that there's no point in trying to be humble or modest or doing whatever the rest of SGGSJ says because all you need is amrit and you'll automatically get naam and gurmantar. all you've gotta is your daily banis through lip service, do a bit of seva once in a while and mebbe throw a bit of change in the charity box and ta-da! you're a sikh... that's amazing...

see i was under the impression that Sikhi revolves around making SAINT SOLDIERS... not just parrots who can recite words without understanding their true meaning or trying to do the other things that are apparently important to SGGSJ. things like really becoming humble and modest. things like trying to help gain control over your mind.

but obviously, i've been correctd. all one needs is amrit. our own efforts don't matter at all.

thank you so much for lettin me know.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

one who takes amrit and does not follow maryada is not a true khalsa

u must follow the reight

and who are u to judge all the amridharis in the world????

the first strp in sikhi to become sikh is to take amrit

i gave u enough quotes from reight

then u must stay in reight, and read lots of bani, do sewa, etc.

thats a sikh

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguuru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[sikh_fauge]

i disagree..how can sikhs be confined to khalsa warriors?

when u take amrit from khande de pahul u become a warrior..not a plastic warrior who carries a plastic knife..but a warrior (this is my personal view anyways)

henceforth, anyone can be a sikh..someone hungry for the truth..spritually hungry,etc etc..therefore it cannot be confined to just amrit..how about all the virtues and teachings the gurus before guru gobind singh ji bestowed on their followers?

as sukhi_v said, we should focus on our virtues..this analogy of amrit being enrolment to a school is quite popular, and is very catchy..but it comes to no avail when u join a school who u arent fit enough to join!

in my eyes khalsa sikhs are the elite of mankind..hence why so many were turned away in the past (when they requested to be baptised)

and i shall be but the dust of the feet of these kings among men, until i have reached a stage where i feel iam responsible enough to carry the nishan sahib of guru gobind singh ji

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

guru nanak sahib also used to baptize with charan pahul

wat is so hard to understand

bani quotes have been given

proof from athias has been given

wat more do u need?

sikh means disiple, not learner

wat kind of disiple doesnt obey his teacher??

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[sikh_fauge]

i guess we have different interpretations on what a khalsa sikh is.

veera, did bhai mardhana partake in charan ke pahul?

infact, all followers of the guru??

im not too sure, please clarify (with evidence/sources)

[sikh_fauge]

and what im trying to point out, is that (with the support of numerous shabads by guru nanak dev ji) that it isnt so hard (for people with different levels of consciousness i guess) to take amrit and not care about the rehit or about how to live with purity on the inside..there was countless

paths in india already which did that..focus so much on the outside, that the inside was ignored.

dont u think,as sikhs, we should have a balance? if a person is working to be a better person; working to establish or strengthen his virtues; seeking shelter under the gurus guidance; following the MAIN principles of sikhi i.e. kirt karna, naam jaapna, vand shakna, but just because he hasnt taken amrit, he is then not a sikh??

again, this is where our understanding is different..to me, a khalsa (baptised sikh) is a warrior saint..its definitely something supernatural..but not the be all end all for spiritual growth

to me amrit is a declaration..a passport if u will..and its most definitely something beautiful (which i cant describe since i havent had the pleasure of tasting it)..but i cant see how a persons love for the guru can be confined to an initiation ceremony..of course, it means ur giving ur head down for the guru..but how about those people who live each day for the guru?

if i want to be initiated through charan pahul, where can i do it??

[nirgun]

see i was under the impression that Sikhi revolves around making SAINT SOLDIERS... not just parrots who can recite words without understanding their true meaning or trying to do the other things that are apparently important to SGGSJ. things like really becoming humble and modest. things like trying to help gain control over your mind.

Dearest brother. Sikhi IS about becoming humble and modest, controlling your mind, and becoming a saint-soldier. Sikhi is the game of love, and Amrit is simply the first step that will put "prem rus" into you, and get you ready to feel the divine bliss of Naam and Bani. Amrit is simply the initiation process, and it is absolutely essential ("pritham rehat ye jaan khande kee pahul chhake"). However, this physical Amrit is there to HELP you develop the internal Amrit Naam.

It's definitely not along the lines of Sikhi to utter your nitnem without knowing the meaning, or to do paat like parrots. You should make an effort to understand what you are reading (bani/paat), then you will feel ultimate bliss.

Sikhi IS about becoming a Saint-Soldier who gives every breath to Guru Sahib.

it means ur giving ur head down for the guru..but how about those people who live each day for the guru?

Veer ji, doesn't "living each day for the guru" go hand in hand with "giving your head" to the Guru? To me, it's the same thing. I've given my head, but I try to live every day dedicated to Guru Jee. It's one and the same in my world. It's all about pyaar, and Amrit puts that pyaar into you.

>just a humble opinion!<

[sikh_fauge]

What about someone whos scared to give their head to the guru (as did the panj pyarai) but who live as gurus sikhs (naam jap, vand shakna, kirt karna,etc along with virtueous qualities) on a daily basis..but dont necessarily have the warrior aspect..are they not sikhs veera?

I find it hard to beleive there was no naam before amrit..