Mekhane'ch Jannat

you make surrender sound easy. First before you surrender you have to know yourself, Nanak je ko aape jane aaga gaya na soee To know yourself requires an immense effort of will, and desire for muktee, a heroic will you have to become a soorma. You cannot lose yourself if you do not know what your own self is. You are being tricked, stop trying to blind others. Your submission to the guru is a slap in the face of guruji, it is a blind submergence in an anal fantasy, it makes a mockery of the wisdom the gurus fought so hard to gain. You use names like naam simran and waheguru but these just disguise your childish ideas. A tradition needs to be continuely re newed otherwise duped fools like you masquerade in the form of a sikh use the language of the guru's to promote a somnulescence of the sikh populace. I despise people like you. leave this forum, you don't deserve to post, your ears are closed just go away and leave sikhi to people who want to learn about themselves.

yes yes of course but i was talking about the ending of pain, when i say i cannot see god in bad things i mean feel know and act god, stop reducing things to your bland intellectual level, to experience pain and learn from it is absolutely correct but this not the state where you extract raas from situations which were previously painful. I am talking of an incremental blossoming of real-ness which renders previous painful objective experiences painless. I learned whilst at school that suffering is the best class. It is amazing how people interpret things according to their own little world, what chance of sangat is there when people don't want to see out. Understanding that pain is good and that it takes you nearer to god is only a small step on a long road. Actually in reality dealing with pain and neutralising it is a very hard task. You said god has everything to do with it, is god pain? In reality if you knew god done everything why would you need to learn from your pain, there would be no pain. My issue is not with gurbani saying god is everything, i agree with this, if shaheediyan had said my guru says etc. etc. i could not argue with anything, but he didn't, so he is fair game. As you can see applying values that we all love and cherish is the only thing of value. dawkins denies god because of the hypocrisy he sees in religion but maybe he has not been told god is everything. If he was told this than he maybe would think yes god is everything and write a book called the atheist delusion. Simply being told this fact i am sure would revolutionise his consciousness without any hard work.

no no the analogy would be better saying we are blind men being taught how to swim, a blind man does not know what water is let alone swimming. you have to ask why you have to ask why to everything in gurbani you have to khoj and khoj and question everything, This laziness, in just saying oh yeah i just leave everything to my guru he does everything you know, is bakwaas guru ji is the font of knowledge why not ask deep questions to remove doubts. if you trust your guru and have faith you will have no barriers between him and you.

Yes brother i agree give up old ways of thinking, slay the slayer the mind, cutting of the head represents psychologically being dead to negative influences of the ego which have built up in us, but this is my opinion. See asking why is what Sikhi is about

Shaheediyan are you speaking from experience? Have you experienced god in everything have you drawn out the gold thread from the objective world and spun yourself a cloak of immortality? If you are not speaking from experience you words mean nothing, you are just a parrot repeating things. I see a difference i can't see god in bad things because of my weakness, so i cannot say god has everything to do with, as i do not feel this with my being. I can only understand on an intellectual level from reading bani. This means little if it is not brought into your life and living. PLease refrain from your brand of arrogant neutralism it is annoying.

How can i cut my head off? I assume you do not mean physically. So what is the method for cutting of my head? Must I imagine every day my physical head being cut off? How would cutting my head off for god be good because god gave me this body and now i am imagining that its head is being chopped off. Is this like suicide, for what ideal am i cutting my head off. Would you cut your hair off? No because god gave you hair, so your head must be as important as hair, so why are you saying chop off your head and don't ask why, are you part of some imaginary suicide club. What are the feet of god where my decapitated head must rest. how can i meet god when i have chopped off my head how can i speak, you are a bit mad i think. You are a parrot, what you say is just mimicry, have you got a brain, god gave you a brain to do shabad vichaar not just repeat nice sayings you are not helping anyone

I recommend a essay by sam fryman called the dawkins delusion it is available to download from the internet by anyone who has bittorrent. It is true that religion has been responsible for much evil, but dawkins fails to realise the good aspects of religion, which are by necessity unseen, if they were seen they would not be good. The wiki article ends by quoting dawkins "an atheistic worldview is life-affirming in a way that religion, with its unsatisfying “answers†to life’s mysteries, could never be" By life affirming dawkins must refer to physical life, life as identified predominantly with the body. This view of life is predominant in the culture he writes out of. Life is gratification sensually with attention upon the object sensed. This meaning of life which is predominant in a world ruled by scientific ideas, is a dogma. Physicality is given prime importance. Instead of a child being discriminated because he is muslim or christian, maybe he will be discriminated because he has a funny nose or wears uncool clothes. While religious groups have solidarity amongst themselves because of shared ideals (mostly) what ideals would unite dawkins new atheistic world? This is the crux of the issue, ideas are more substantial than matter, as expressed by plato's cave allegory. Dawkins unconsciously substitutes his own ideas for the religious ones. His ideas are the epitome of chaos and dissolution because they are ghayb he does not see them, because gaoing back his culture is one that psychologically has become narrower and narrower. We are as it were at the tip of the iceberg, the tip emerges from the oceans surface but the bulk of the iceberg lies deep beneath the waters. Our culture cannot see the ideas, that we damage ourselves with. Religion had an esoteric aspect which allowed gifted individuals to dive into the ocean and see the iceberg. These individuals guided communities as much as they could. Now dawkins culture has no esoteric allowance not even in opposition to the culture, it obliterates it totally it is a real killer of the soul. With the new age bullshit in every religion this cancerous culture has even made the esoteric exoteric, which is a crime I boil in rage against. God has nothing to do with it, each man makes his own god in mans image dawkins god is a blind watchmaker, which adequately portrays dawkins own mind, he is blindly writing.

wahegurubol is insane. He talks about God like he knows him. Non intellectual understanding can only be discussed through an intellectual medium, which must adhere to scholarly rules otherwise you create chaos, an anything goes devlish society who hide the shit in their minds behind ideals of transcedentalism. Debasing the the ideals that are near to God, by extending the hand from the pit of negative emotions and trying to grab at the stars that stand for the pure values, which spring from the heart and have their source in god. That leprous hand cannot reach the stars but the attempt in itself represents a crime against the order of nature, the shitty should understand their shittiness only then can the rise up from the mire created in the mind. Peace brothers, may god reveal all our shittiness in a glory of blazing light allowing us the knowledge of our baseness

Do not withdraw i would like to add my thoughts to this. In Jap Ji Sahib it says ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥ On the first step of the ladder there is individual will a seeker makes efforts very hard effort even just to get onto the ladder. As the ladder is climbed free will decreases. But a ladder can only be climbed through effort. But the subtle body which is climbing becomes lighter as it ascends the breath of the lord causes it to waft upwards. Through increasing incoporeality the lord takes over. Higher rungs correspond to less will, the upwards journey requires less effort, the gravity becomes weaker as you ascend

For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the Guru because I enliven it." In contrast to the hard evidence you repeately request in all your posts, because you "enliven it", does not answer the question. I want to reply to this point. It may somewhat diverge from the thread of the discussion but may prove some use anyways. Without human beings what is the point of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? How can the values encapsulated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib be real, if human beings do not enliven those values. A teaching from a Guru becomes alive when a student becomes and assimilates that value, digests that value internally. A Guru is accepted as such only when the values he encapsulates are passed and internalised by the student. By saying the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is my Guru because I enliven it implies a deeper relationship with Guru Jee than saying he is my Guru because of such an such historical reason, the historical evidence is secondary. Primary evidence is the psychological link to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, encapsulating the values of Guru Jee is the primary evidence. Which cannot be demostrated on internet forums.

For us there is spiritual extertion which is a form of grace a lower form of grace. For Baba Nanak there was no exertion as Baba Nanak received the highest form of grace where minute effort is required. All asking is towards him, he is pulling us, some he pulls hard some softly, depending on the persons spiritual strength/capacity. God is not known cannot be known but what God is not is the known. But the known is sticky it sticks, to clear the known I must ask the unknown. First I negate the known the sub-known becomes negated by the unknown without any effort, only the effort to stay in the state of sub-known to become clear. After this I don't know Sorry to go on, but to start to negate cannot be done without his grace. Man does not know where to start Only through his pull is negation allowed, the more negation the "higher" the perspective and the more the person becomes qualified to be a true teacher of God. The perspective becomes "higher" with regard to things the more his pulled out, through negation. ONly these people have the right to teach.

Shaheediyan maybe you should read Balbir Paji's posts with an open mind, and not judge him. If you think he is wasting everyones time Kindly do not draw more attention to the thread by posting in it. ANd i don't think anyone has the right to call someone an egotist I find this a vicious attack as Gurubani condemns egosim as a vile disease you are in fact trying to insult and hurt a person because you cannot understand what he is saying, which may in fact be of some use to you. I do not like people who destroy. But it is a sad fact modern people like to destroy others (psychologically) because they are not what they think they should be. Anyways peace To talk from experience is one thing and to talk from learned knowledge is one thing. Learn to look at the meanings behind the exterior. Modern Sikhs even get obssessed with the external words and the ideas of the words themselves. forget your dogma for one minute. Once you see come back to dogma and it will be seen differently, in relation to what is, things change the expression for truth has to keep changing because people hold things and cling to them, they need to be shook out from them. PLease continue with the discussion i am interested to read some more posts.

It is duality you are right, what i meant is it is not normal asking. It is less of a duality than normal asking. It is an asking that is a movement towards the place. An asking that is a movement towards unity that must culminate in the place of no others. I said the result asking is knowledge of the place the result of asking is brahmgyaan. Asking I interpreted as spiritual exertion, which is naam simran. As I wrote before the negating of what is not god this for me is naam simran. Also I previously forget the word dekhia which must mean Guru Nanak witnesses the place so there is no extinction. Extinction is witnessed and negated. This word takes us beyond the beyond of the beyond.

"Asking" is not asking to ask is duality "asking" is grace from the Guru the result of "asking" is knowledge of the place of no others. This place cannot be known without "asking" for the guru's grace. Asking is spiritual exertion on the individuals part to clear up what is not god to allow the place of no others to become manifest everyday. The place is the meeting of the beloved where the seeker and beloved embrace and dissolve in primordial unity. The place of no others is overlaid the incorporeal material world in millions of stages leading to avar nahi thao. Through "asking" the sikh uncovers the grace of the Guru more and more until the final meeting at avar nahi thao.

Dilpazir and mast-e-gashtam i like. I have to say for me persian words are the most beautiful sounding. This topic gives me the opportunity to discuss a word that is used frequently in our community and at many times its usage does not fit the meaning of the word. I find it interesting that this expletive is interspersed in many punjabi peoples dialogues e.g. Mai oh Panj**h shoppa val gya si othaa Panj**h aloo na'ee milley menoo mai kyaa shop valey noo teri pan di l*nn aloo ni hai etc. etc. I apologise for lowering the tone of this forum, but I am fascinated at why this word is so widely used. Like 'cellar door' the word in question carries a impetus that is not to do with meaning, unlike cellar door this impetus is not beautiful. People like to say it. It is very satisfying if the delivery and timing of the word is correct, try it at a silent point in conversation just say it with the right inflection of voice and the effect is good, and you feel better. I must add that this word is multi dimensional it can be used to convey a multitude of emotions. Such as anger, resignation, lust, envy, although mainly negative who can deny the power and shaktee of this word. I have also noticed the growing use of 'teri pan di l*nn' which is nonsensical.

shaheediyan, what is the source of this please?

Your 'life' in a human body is privileged because the 'conscious stuff' which makes the universe is concentrated highly within humans. Or has the possibility to become more concentrated eventually realising the source or his all-ness waheguru. As is my understanding the human birth is the only one out of the 'lakh chaurasi' which is privileged to be able to ascend and descend on the cosmic ladder. So can you imagine that after spending millions of years living as different forms of life throughout the universe how grateful a jeev would be to be born as a human? Some people may say that 8.4 million life forms is an allegorical number usually they are scholars, but having read some posts of certain scholars on this site I have developed a serious distaste for arrogant scholars, if a persons knowledge is not verified by the internal conscience, if it is not 'digested' or there is no practical experience of this knowledge then the words become hollow and rob the words of any shakti or emphasis they become dead words. Sorry for going off topic but I had to relieve my burden. Going back, if a person lives a human life animalistically he will transmigrate through animal beings, if he lives his life godlike he will become a god. But a God can go back to lakh Chaurasi Joon. Only the all in one and one in all god does not transmigrate. So all the Lakh Chaurasi Joons are in your body now. The human body conatins these in a causal state. Depending on karma certain animalistic tendencies of certain life forms are emphasised, and when enacted these actions pile up evidence, recorded by the scribe of death who at the time of death adds up the actions and proceeds to allocate you a womb. Karma is Karma but effects can be lessesnd through bhagtee or sadhana, but thats a whole other thing. I should have said the mind contains all the lakh chaurasi joons. This is a warning against the ease it is to fall into animalistic or lower actions. There are 8.4 million classes of lower beings which each have there own negative traits. So the mind has billions of negative traits to be immersed in if it so chooses. Guru Ji has revealed this knowledge to us to give us perspective on maya and how many entanglements there are, and remember some animals are very graceful and beautiful and noble which is the equivalent of a human who is very knowledgable, but graceful and beautiful animals are still animals, which means they represent lower forms of knowledge (i elucidated this point because people with much knowledge are habitually selective in what they choose to understand due to the narrowness of non experential knowing) by the way i would like you to know i have an extreme fondness for aloo i have this negative trait because i am only human,

Yes I also like the 3rd picture very beautiful.

Only through Guru Ji's Kirpa can you become neech or know your own lowliness or nothingness. You may be alluding to people who display outward humility and think that showing humility is enough. As has been said many times before by many people, inward (with regards to action) takes presidence over outwards when aiming to progress with sadhana. Raja Janak was neech even though he was a King. Neech in my view is equivalent to gyaan. A person cannot be neech through acting with humility. This is a mere good deed. Lowliness is when you are trapped when you cannot do anything when everything every karam you do is filled with pain, each mental movement away from him is pain. Total reliance on him is gyaan of your lowliness, pain is gyaan of your worthlessness and beggarly nature which is dependent mentally on him. But pain is cultivated by sadhana which then becomes anand-mahanand when refined. To know pain of seperation is mahan baksheesh, to reiterate this is gyaan, not a mere punya, action, good action of being humble and cleaning someones shoes or something. But there is danger, big danger, first outward humility must be with also thirst for knowledge. Without thirst for knowledge you are just a slave of the senses you are not nath.

I have to disagree with you 300 is disrespectful in the extreme to the great persian civilization, making them look like evil monsters, i don't think it can be called a historical film. It has been banned in Iran, because it takes the piss out of the persians and maybe it has something to do with propoganda against Iran, you know the country Bush plans to destroy next. Dehumanising the enemy making them evil is the first step, and this society is subtle in the extreme with its propoganda tactics. Like after some massacre in the Vietnam war a soldier said "I didn't know they were human" Making the persians/iranians seem evil is the first step in desensitising people against future violence. Anyway read the quote below to see what persians contributed to the Earth. The Spartans as far as I know didn't accomplish any feats of philosophy/culture, but they did enslave a whole people and spent their time developing their military abilities, to the detriment of everything else needed to become a whole person.

I think this idea of Bairagee and RAgee can be split into two categories; ingoing and outgoing. A person can be a mentally outward moving RAgee mentally outward moving Bairagee mentally inward moving RAgee mentally inward moving Bairagee So a seeker would progress ideally in that order as listed above. To answer the question I would say that Bairaag is cultivated easier in an environment with less outward distractions (i.e. a peaceful natural environment and simple society) So the second stage of outward moving bairaag would be easier when an individual has less to be enamoured or attached to in the first place. This is not true in all cases. Also to move to the second stage a person has to be somewhat disillusioned with the world and must perceive that a solution to the empty nature of man cannot be garnered from the outside. You say that Sikhs are trained to becoming RAgees, this could be because people have too many possessions and attachments and live over complicated lives which makes it difficult to take a step on the path of bairaag.

You can never see God because of maya, a person can only see God through maya. There are people close to him and people far. Everything in the world is imagination. Therefore teachings that point towards God are and can be contradictory. Reincarnation has no reality except as an imagined idea. Judgement day is the same. But following a tradition these ideas are vital crutches to become close to God. Without these supports a seeker would fall into the ocean of entaglements that is the world. For support faith is essential, have faith in the teachings of the Guru's and you will be on the way to negotiating lifes ocean. Faith in one belief does not mean an opposing belief is invalidated. It is that you choose to follow a certain imaginary path to go somewhere that cannot be known. How can one imaginary way be correct and another wrong, i cannot say your thinking process your whole mind memory etc. is wrong because it is different to mine, that would be absurd. They are both valid.

I think before you ask the question : why didn't god create humans before other creatures? It would be scientific and rational to ask How does or did God create? Jap Ji Sahib provides the answers. Whatever is created is naam. It is all god's name. But man being endowed with the gift of making sense and explaining his surroundings, uses this gift in selfish ways. Forgetting (intuitively and innately not just thinkingly) that God's name is the basis of his enjoyments and sorrows. Man thinks he is the doer and gets caught up in psychological storm he has himself created. So creation is naam. In Jap Ji Sahib Guru Jee says that the pandits and the qazi have no idea when the creation was created. Only the creator knows. My interpretaion of this is that as an individual human it is not desirable to speculate on the begginings of creation. It is a pointless excercise. I really have a hard time understanding the obsession of modern followers of the science religion, that everything can be explained and measured it is Ego gone mad. Real work is not speculating about creation within modern scientific thought. or about whether there are aliens or whatever. Real work is speculating on who you are. Sikhi is not scientific, it is not about categorising the external world, it is about bringing a person into harmony into the presence of the divine. In Islam they say beautifully that each person who is born with trust. That is trust to Allah that he will recognise himself he will clear himself make his mind spotless to be fit for divine grace. A person who abuses this trust will suffer pain in accordance with his will. Those who live in his trust will suffer the agonies of seperation which is a million times worse than any pain, but then its all about coming out the other side, at least you have started the work. This is the same as saying the preciousness of the human birth as quoted above.

Thats fine you must do what you feel is correct in the situation you are presently in. But please do not ridicule what you cannot at this point in your life understand. Why do you think mystic saints like the sufi's were called the pivot of the world or the centre around the material world turns? Whether you believe this or not, I have come to believe (i might add I once shared your view, but I got changed) that the 'saints' are mediators between mankind and god. Without Saints we would be in hell chaos and the I doubt humans would exist. The Saints see the big picture not their small individual existence and they lighten the Earth of mankinds paap, the paap of just being an Ego. This mahaan bakshish is one reason for the ustat of Saints in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This ideal is what men should aim for, if everyone strived for this goal we would live in heaven, because only the blessed can become true saints. So your life that you want live in the material world is your choice but because Gurbani doesn't connect with you, please do not ridicule people who follow the path, even though there are many fakers but the genuine people who follow the path are the support of mankind and without these people you wouldn't be able to be able to live the life you do. I know you will react to these words with incredulity but ye of little faith. Also i like this comment i read somewhere - if you want to look out for your neighbours welfare you must disregard your own - This is one of the things Gurbani does for you it can make you a beautiful cog in society. An individual who strives for an ideal expressed in Gurbani becomes a perfected member of society, he becomes an instrument for the evolution of man. His social relations become perfected because of the ideals he follows. But if you have not experienced social relations fully then go and experience them and see but keep an open rational mind that there are other things outside 'following your own bliss or improving your life'

I beg to differ, this is a view of despondance and is blatantly irresponsible - you cannot blame the state of society upon God, thats just the easy way out. We created the society we live in by our thought process, just like an architect sees a prebuilt house in his mind, so the external world is a projection of our thought process. We are responsible for the society and we must make it better. Your concept of God is babyish, please contemplate gurbani more deeply, it is not just a story to make you feel better. To fall in with the material world of todays society to some extent is necessary to live within it, but I have realised the modern world is built upon a philosophy of 'evil' You may think this a strong word, but today there is no underlying philosophy/religion of 'good'. To clarify these terms good is harmony and evil is dis-harmony or chaos. The world promotes dis-harmony. sexy images everywhere you look, emphasis on external image, culture of desire fulfilment, have sex with as many men/women you want etc etc. Where are the morals in todays world, where is the sense of community between ALL people, society is degrading there is no doubt about it. Excessive thinking is dis-harmony a quiet mind with less thinking is a movement towards harmony. Look at how everyone craves stimulation. Sikhi is a teaching that is 'good' it re-integrates a person into a natural state. As man is the only animal to have a psychology he is the only animal that needs a guru because he can think complexly. It is a mans duty to stand up for righteousness/dharam/morality in society not to become a sheep and just follow the bad. Listen brother whether you have a dhari pagh or whatever if you want to be 'good' then you will ahve to go against this society by being a part of it and doing something to make it better. Then you will be outcasted anyway, why do you want to make a pact with the devil? But You may think this society is fine, thats all good kha'oh Pee'oh Aash Kar'oh but when your good karma runs out and you find yourself in darkness of sorrow and realise the emptiness of the world and as you cry out with mental anguish just remember he will be there the guru to take you into his heart of undifferentiated nonduality.