Mekhane'ch Jannat

This is the beautiful thing about mythological narrative, people always interpret them according to their intellect and depth of understanding. See what has happened with the Quran and Bible which are essentialy grand mythologies, people started taking them literally because they failed to understand the 'code' in which they were written. Someone can see in the Ramayana, high metaphysics disguised in symbolic characters, a grand cosmological allegory and also a psychological discourse that can help integrate a person internally. Another sees a story of a man who has a monkey friend and goes to Lanka and kills some demon. Myths and Legends of all cultures are our heritage we would be fools not to make an attempt to understand the wisdom enshrined in these myths.

Thanks for the reply, you raise some interesting points. I believe strongly a person should not give up his rituals and practices in the face of wishy washy western liberalism. The rituals and practices (rehat maryada nitnem etc.) this is what defines a person and community. But an excessive rigidity with regards to these practices, prevents life or vivifying power from reaching them IF they are not in harmony with our daily lives in society. What happens is a kind of splitting where the person inhabits two worlds, one of an ideal Sikhi and the other of mundane life. If this continues and the two worlds are not brought together than Sikhi will become like an island unable to affect the social reality. It is like that to some extent now. Muslims have huge numbers they are trying to drown what they don't agree with by sheer weight and quantity. But i am afraid the genie cannot be put back in the box, that is why muslims are fighting a losing battle. The onset of western rationalism and the 'scientific' revolution has created major changes in the psyche of man. These changes have to be assimilated. If you want to see the other side. By living tradition I mean something that puts an individual in touch with his centre, and also, within a certain framework, directs his energy into useful and mutually beneficial activities for the whole of society(Sarbat Da Bhalla) Sikhi does not tell us how to behave in a modern corporate environment. But it does put us in touch with our real self. Instead of keeping these two areas seperate they need to be integrated. We can see this problem with modern sikh youth who feel as though Sikhi has no relation and relevance to their daily lives. It provides no sustenance for people to get through and over their samajik problems because it has been raised to such an abstract 'goodness' that it has no reality in the world we occupy. This is what occured in the decline of christianity God was whittled away from a living presence in the world to an abstract principle in no relation to society and the world. But people feel Sikhi has to be 'protected' from something or other. This is the effect of western nihilism that affects all of us, no one really believes any more but we want to believe. So we try to cover up our non-belief but it comes up as a split between outer society and a pure Sikhi unrelated to that non-belief. The problem is very deep psychologically. It is the central problem of duality projected onto the world in a myriad of ways, we all need to become brahmgyanis and I'm not joking.

The dominant form of medicine that influences us re: what foods we eat, has its underpinnings in the assumption that physical food is the only food humans can consume and a human being consists of solely a physical body. In ayurveda humans consume three forms of food, physical food, air and impressions. The finer foods contribute to the substance of subtle bodies. That is why some truly religious people are very strict about where and from who they take food, because the environment affects the quality of the food. And certain foods have certain qualities that western medicine does not consider. E.g. milk is considered a 'good form of protein' but in reality milk is good because it is created out of pure love by the mother for her offspring. These and other qualities are totally ignored by modern medicine which reduces everything to physical components.

Dalsingh, what you say is the external side of the situation and I broadly agree with what you say. But there is also the living source of tradition, I mentioned before, that comes into all you have said. If there is no inclination to orientate ourselves to the living tradition (which may involve some sacrifice of rituals and regulation) than we only pursue a purely secular goal - which is what the west has been doing for the past few hundred years. This is what I mean when I say that by protecting Sikhi as merely a sociological phenomenon it will become assimilated into the western secular state and lose any link with the living tradition. An excessive focus on protecting external values and forms, takes away the power from the influences that shape the external values. E.g. a beard is a sign of manliness and sagacity, but if these qualities are not inherent in a man with a beard then the beard becomes robbed of the power it is meant to represent. This is why muslims are on a sinking ship, externally they may be doing well, but the gap between the reality/living source of their religion and their outer actions is becoming wider. And Dalsingh, you are measuring 'success' of muslims as what western society has defined as successful and therefore IS successful, how can you fight something when you are so pervaded by its notions. We as Sikhs instead of focusing on making people wear Paghs and keep beards (although important) should focus on keeping alive the virtues that these symbols represent. This reality that vivifies the symbols of religion is what should be fought for in balance with keeping a niche and respected place in society, but I see an overbalance in protecting identity and preserving a niche in a society. In a society at that, which promotes illusion and falseness. Someone amusingly described britain as a de-meritocracy - a state that rewards stupidity ignorance and falseness over truth justice and virtue. To regain new life we must visit the waters of life and take off our old clothes, and bathe and become purified and renewed ready for another age, there are many myths and legends that say the waters of life are hidden in the deep pits of darkness, Yeh noor-e-zulmat ke tafsir hai....

The statement is a paradox - when the word multiculturism is taken in its meaning of all inclusiveness. But I get what he is trying to say and it is true. Muslims in order to protect their culture and traditions from the eroding impact of western society have retreated into themselves. But i am afraid if you close your eyes the world does not go away. The loss of traditional values and religious culture have to be acknowledged and something new must be created by us all. Muslims are aboard a sinking ship, and so are Sikhs who take an obsessional stance in preserving and retreating into tradition. The white man has changed the world and changed all of us. He has laid down a challenge, and by flinging ourselves backwards into the shelter of a tradition that is no longer nourished by a living source we cut ourselves off from all help. Muslims are afraid of evolving afraid of change and afraid of the new, they are like our pendoo's who stick with tried and trusted methods. But I am afraid that the tried and trusted methods have been knocked on the head by Mr Smith and they don't work anymore.

No no not for you i just took the opportunity to spread things for the other Kanjars who were reading it. The story goes something like this , Before Bhagat Naamdev became a Bhagat he got married to a woman whom he was infatuated with. He was with her all the time playing with her. One day she said that she had to go to her parents house and stay a couple of nights. Naamdev begged her not to go, but she would not have it and went off. Naamdev was in a poor state the first night he just about managed but the second night he could not take it and had to go and play about with his wife. It was a dark stormy night. Naamdev had to cross many dangers and a river to get to his in-laws house. But he had so much power of kaam he forgot all this and left the house. It was raining and thundering and Naamdev set out he come across something first but i forget, next he come to a river it was dark he saw something that looked like a boat he jumped on and paddled across. He then came to the house of his in laws. His wifes room was on the top floor there was tree outside but he could not climb it but then he saw a rope and climbed up and into the window of the house. When he saw his wife she was mad. After she calmed down she told him to look out the window and said that 'boat' you come across the river in was a mans corpse and the rope you used was a deadly cobra but because of your lust you did not see any of these things you just had one thing in your mind, if you had the same devotion to God you would be a saint. So Naamdev became a saint.

Remember Rsi Valmiki who was a bandit and killer, could not say Rama but had to say Mara, you have to speak on the 'level' to get through sometimes. Also the biggest Kanjars have the biggest potential, like the story of Bhagat Naamdev who wanted to 'do' his wife so much he mistook a snake for a rope and among other things.

What matters is quality of attention. To illustrate with an analogy, when speaking to a woman you are trying to chat up or impress, if you talk half to her and stare half into space ignoring her she will not be flattered. To flatter her you must give her full attention. To give full attention to another person and hang on their every word makes the other person feel good and valued. If reading Gurbani with half attention you are not courting with Gurbani correctly and are insulting Gurbani. Its like someone giving you a gift and you turn your head to the side paying little attention to the giver and just mumble 'thanks'. Its like my old science teacher used to say 'people think knowledge is going to get into their head by osmosis' If you are going to cook then cook focus on one thing, don;t be a prostitute and divide your surti among different things of the world.

First of all what do you mean by 'true'. If you mean this in a historical sense, than it is not true. This event did not occur at a physical location at a particular time. The scene you have described is a variation of a particular mythological story. The actors in this 'story' are not people like you or me. They are hypostatized or ideas made into substance. So rape incest and other immoral goings on that occur in mythologies cannot be judged from the human point of view. These occurrences are signs for events that occur and are occurring in the 'other world'. By the other world, I mean the world of archetypes or of pure forms. The world we live in is a mixed up world a world of confusion, a false world, where nothing is stable. Certain myths describe the worlds that are of a higher order of truth/reality than this false one. The strange paradoxical stories we find in ithihas' like Ramayana and Mahabharata are narrations of actual real-er events than we are able to see. It is ironic and meaningful that the word 'myth' has a derogatory meaning in todays' world. I could go on as to how humans are the means through which certain battles are fought But i don't think this is what you wanted to hear - So yes the bhavishya Purana is considered a late concoction and spurious.

I could not care about Islam. The division that you have created between Islam and white supremacists, is to me, artificial. They are both constructs used by the centres of power to obscure reality. Paradoxically many REAL white supremacy groups in America actually follow the same line against western democracies that Islamic fundamentalists follow. The point is although these two groups are on opposite ends, they are on the margins of society, this enables them to see into society somewhat impartially. This again comes back to self-observation and reflection, vichaar on where we as individuals stand and what forms of thought we are espousing. Only when we are free to an extent of societal conditioning can we begin to see impartially what it is that has conditioned us. But as Sikhs identify themselves with the prevalent societal conditions, with 'fitting in' (e.g. dave singh etc.) then any talk only enmeshes us further in this situation. I am not saying instead of being with Goray like Dave singh lets go with muslims and wage war against the west, this is merely exchanging one form of slavery for another. I am espousing freedom from any ideaological slavery except to the Guru.

I agree with Dalsingh101 and HSD, Sikh behaviour now is like the Jews before the holocaust" An inversion of the truth, Sikh behaviour is like the Nazi's whose propoganda led the mass of german people to believe in the the 'threat' of evil jews and as tony says 'threat that Islam?jews pose to the rest of humanity.' The Nazis excelled in creating mass fear of some enemy-jews- in order to manipulate the masses, some Sikhs have co-opted the establishment that uses a continuation of Nazi principles to subdue the masses through psychologically exploiting and exploding/enlarging racial and cultural tensions, to keep people from questioning the highly skewed corrupt centres of power. Dalsingh tony et al provide protection to the corrupt centers of power in western society by engaging in discourse that is set and has finite borders. These borders are set so effectively by the societal conditions as to create an illusion of doing something and change, whereas in fact the existing structure becomes more entrenched. It is necessessary to think in a completely different way, Sikhs project the way of thinking that they are part of in western society onto sikh history and the history becomes a handmaiden to the dominant forms of thought that are moulded by western centres of power. Moulded in such a way as to reduce any threat to themselves(the centres of power). Sikhs are thus neutralised and devoid of any insurgency or any real threat, they are 'got' by the dominant forms of thought, inflitrated by western thinking, tony is a classic example of someone who repeatedly spews out establishment thought, he is a representative of the status quo. I prefer to follow the example of Guru Gobind Singh and rebel agaianst the established corrupt system, but in these times maya has become very tricky, and by rebelling you may be conforming.

Of course they do, it is naieve to believe otherwise. The world is made up of malice and ill will. But arguing on the same level only propogates this malice and ill will. No matter in what ideaological clothes you dress it up in. The issue is of viewing things vertically and not horizontally. Arguing with a frog in a deep well is not going to get you out of the well. And this is what these issues are, two frogs arguing in a deep dank well over different shades of slime. A muni once said that the world can only change when people work on themselves and put their own house in order before they try to put the world to rights. Most of us are in disorder internally and if we try to reform sikh society all that will happen is that the internal disorder will spread out into society.

Trying to forge some sort of Sikh Identity is like trying to stem the flow of a raging torrent of water with a small teacup. There are 'currents' flowing in the world today that have picked up momentum due to past causes and will not be stopped by people banging on about whites and pakis - all that is, is a distraction. What is imperative now is to identify the destructive trends and to be aware of them. Shaheediyan is right about the trash culture that has come to influence the youth we should study the causes of this culture and identify the roots of it. Things are getting pounded into dust, to keep your hosh we have to watch what is happening if we get caught up in all this paki whitey business you will be caught up in the maelstrom and pounded into dust like all the other fools arguing about non-existent false issues. The destruction of identity in the youth that people so much malign is only the clearing out of trash, with knowledge it is a blessing without it becomes a curse. Certyain concepts, although they point towards the truth have come into the realm of false personality and have become false idols, once a concept becomes only for 'show' it must inevitably degenerate -pravritti+nivritti- . And sorry to say for many people Sikhi is only 'show'.

Xylitol i totally agree with you. Use of drugs in modern society to advance spiritually is dangerous and bad for society. Remember Timothy Leary and his buddies in the US experimenting with LSD. After experiencing short periods of mystical consciousness when returning into normal life, because they had not prepared and disciplined themselves according to a correct moral-religious teaching, they twisted what they saw and confused levels of consciousness. They spawned this decadent american culture of party hard and depravity because of this. My point is in relation to Nihangs in the past consuming cannibus, a very different culture and attitude to nature was in Human Beings. To judge why they took it from our modern scientific-rational viewpoint is akin to judging something by standards that the thing has no conception of. The Imago MUndi of the Nihangs is not the Imago Mundi of modern 20th century man. SO to talk about the physical effects of cannibus as a sort of bottom line in judging why Nihangs took cannibus is nonsensical we can never understand why they took it if we contunue to think in the way modern society has conditioned us. And it will get harder and harder to justify certain older practices unless people start coming out of the newtonian slumber western rationalistic science has imposed upon them. THC the active ingredient of cannibus is not an objective trigger to create a certain state in every human being. Each persons reaction will vary according to their BEING what they are, and also therefore the influences the Human is under. A human under different influences will react differently to THC. A modern bunner living in a stress society that increases tensions and useless desires in people, will react differently to a Nihang living under the open sky more in tune with nature and not having the same pressures on him as modern society. So to say THC has this affect and therefore NIhangs would not have taken it is an obliteration of the subtelties in human nature that makes us Human. Unfortunately western science has the habit to reduce humans to some sort of prima materia well if you worship matter eventually you will become it - in its pure form of course

he means begginers, people starting on the path

The european medicinal view is an inverted form of the truth. It is limited only to the effects of the drug on the human body. The view of cannabis from this perspective is a purely materialistic one. The psychological effects of schizophrenia and disturbed states of mind may in different more 'spiritual' cultures and environments may have served useful purposes in orientating individuals with higher realities, the difference between a Bhakta and a Pagle is fine. Rather than blaming cannabis it is the prevalent 'rituals' through which cannabis is imbibed that determines the affect on the mind, positive or negative. Also the plant is a being it has a level of consciousness, the plant must be 'asked' before it is cut and used, the manner in which it is grown, what time of day or night it is harvested will all contribute to the affect of cannabis on the human. In short if cannabis is prepared by conscious people for conscious aims then it is 'good' if it is used negligently for egotistic aims then it is 'evil'

Skanda Kartikkeya and Shakta doctrines are only clothings of certain principles. In different cultures these clothings were different but they embodied the same principles. Ares, Mars have paralells with Skanda and in Shia literature Fatima the daughter of the prophet is venerated and elevated to a 'Shakti' concept. These underlying principles or forces that influence Human beings is what is important, not the different clothes they wear. Although the clothes are important so that we can understand the principle through the 'clothes' because the principles are invisible. People who get obsessed with the mere 'clothes' are the real troublemakers. Why did Guru Gobind Singh have a standard of Kartikkeya what influences was he attracting by this standard. This is what we should ask. All this neo-hinduism 'Sanatana' stuff is the bastardized conception of the united Indian State that needed a 'religion' to go along with its new independance. So people like Vivekananda cooked up a nice masala mix and called it 'Sanantana Dharma'. But you cant say such things because its againstthe dogma of the eternal Sanatana Dharma

"were pre-Islamic Arabians worshiping Shani" Do you believe shani to be different from Saturn. Has 'Sanatana Dharma' a monopoly over the planets. There are similarities in symbolism throughout the world, the linga yoni expressing male and female energies, is shown differently in different cultures. This points to uniform 'laws' that work in the minds of humans that create symbols. The symbols being clothed differently according to culture. In seeing some resembelances between vedism and arabic paganism, it is idiocy to jump to the conclusion that the vedic culture influenced everything under the sun. A thinking person will take it a step further and consider that humans generate common ideas throughout the world because of an inherent tendency of mind. It is weakness of mind to use vedism as a crutch to explain everything, and your posts that started off acceptable are now becoming absurd, i think any credibility you had is gone when you come out with tha kaaba is a shiv linga. Type in black cube and saturn in google you will see many cultures represented Saturn as a black cube.

Has Sikhi become a consumer item that it needs to be promoted? Have we sunk so low that it is being considered to promote a pure teaching through the filth of hip-hop. This is not anything to do with culture but an issue of purity. Do you take a religious holy book into a toilet to read. Hip-Hop culture uses the word admin cut for women and promotes such things as get rich or die trying. Such filthy ideas are incompatible with the religious life. I am not sure whether people understand purity, ideological purity. Certain ideas that are behind the words of the Hiphop artists are corrosive and anaethema to holy ideals of prayer renunciation and effort. In fact they are in direct contradiction to holy ideals. By using this black tide of crap as a vehicle to promote Sikhi is equivalent to the annhilation of the underpinnings of Sikhi, and bascially all that is left is the image or product of Sikhi that is left to be 'promoted'. What is there to be proud of when a snake like Obama mentions Sikhs. I regard it as an insult when the devil praises Sikhi. Here is poem by Zulu Shaman Credo Mutwa: An actor walks upon the floodlit stage of life wearing a mask of an angel beneath a demon's gown. Pretence smiles upon the crowded hall of life holding out hope as bright as it is false. Son of a woman in whose veins flows the blood of ancient Ireland and dark Africa’s plains. You are Obama, nick-named the standing king You are Barack, oh, son born to deceive The suffering hoards of Africa look up to you, See a black saviour where nought but a Judas strides. An entrapper of nations, bringer of dismal war Behind the robes and the nylon wings of hope Oh, may those who look upon you, see you as you are. May those who hope in you behold you as you be A prince deceitful to bring down Africa’s shrines A siren who leads Africa’s ships onto rocks of obliteration. Your rule my lord will not be one of peace Your reign my king will not be one of smiles Even as we speak in caves both dark and dank Enraged fanatics plot your dark demise They will put around your head a bloodwet martyr’s crown. Oh black Kennedy following the one before May God forgive thee and thy fiery spouse As you walk in silence from the stage of life Barack Obama, blessed son, Oh standing king. Credo Mutwa

Ms Harjas Kaur The Kaaba does not contain a Shiv Linga. The black cube represents the old Arabic God Hubal. Hubal can be equated to the being known as Saturn. The black cube is symbolic of Saturn. Saturn was widely worshipped in ancient days, he had an interesting relationship to Kingship, in Jyotish Shani or Saturn is associated with violet or purple a royal colour. Anyways we cannot just go around calling things what we please to fit them in with our own belief system and then justify distortions of truth by saying that each person is allowed an opinion on reality. There are such things as facts. I am sure Shankar Bhagwan would not appreciate you attaching his auspiscious name to symbols that do not belong to him. Although Shani has a dear relationship with Shiva the Linga is a symbol exclusively of Mahesh and not everything that looks like a linga is not allowed to be one.

How much more disgusting can Kaljug become? His responses make me feel physically sick, and other SIkhs turn a blind eye to what he writes. It is sickening. With people like him in Sikhi , it won;t be long before the outer form of SIkhi is destroyed. It won;t be long before he himself is destroyed you cannot have this attitude in spiritual matters you will be destroyed.

When anything negative is said about western governments see the reaction of the imperials' chumchay. There is a close link between the UK government and the private sector, the government is a showpiece for big multinationals. DOn;t you remember thatcher privatising everything this was to please her corporate masters. Bush BLair Brown they are all in the pockets of big business. Why are Sikhs so intent on serving the government when it has so obviously become corrupt and a source of great evil.

The ideas in magic have reality, please do not forget this, but in kaljug there is much falseness, as with everything else the true people get hidden in the mounds of false. Magic is founded on the principles of unity and is only to be used for the evolution of the human race. It is based on the science of correspondences 'As above so below' and the tantric equivalent 'that which is here is there, that which is not here is not there'. All the universe is found in the human body, the more a human identifies with the absolute the more he can control nature, as his body mirrors the macrocosm. If all you identify with is the unreal mind and ego you cannot influence anything. you cannot DO anything.

To my good friend Kaljug you wrote Allah in Gurbani is no more the deity who supposedly authored the Quran than Ram in Gurbani is Ram of Ayodhya (unless used in that context Would Baba Farid a muslim who accepted the authority of the Quran and swore allegiance to the Prophet(peace be upon him) make this distinction. The answer is obviously no. By insulting and using the name of God Allah in a sarcastic manner you are in fact insulting the bani of Baba Farid, because in case you do not understand for a muslim Allah is the same Allah who authored the Quran and Baba Farid was a muslim. Navjot I feel the same as you Sikhi has focused on the external identity too much. The irony is that which is most precious and at the heart of Sikhi, is being destroyed by the very people who are shouting loudest about the 'uniqueness of the Sikh panth'. In What other way than seriously pondering upon and assimilating bani into your essence, can bani be protected, once people stop learning and understanding the message of unity disclosed in Bani, it will be dead forget about external threats. The irony of focusing and preventing 'external threats' to bani is that this very act constitutes a threat to Gurbani, because you are not actualising its principles.

Baba Farid may disagree with you