shaheediyan

A perfect example of timings not being practical and Gurmat is demonstrated easily by using Anand Sahib as an example. Raamkali is sung after every evening kirtan diwaan as is tradition, but should apparently only be sung in the morning in perdiod 8?

How some Sikhs have incorporated the Gurbani Raagas into the "time-cycles". By Jasdeep Singh DAY 6-9am - time period 1 (day 1) - Devgandari - Bairari 9-12pm - time period 2 ( day 2) Gujri Todi Suhi Bilaval Gound Sarang 12 - 3 pm - time period 3 ( day 3) Vadhans Dhanasari Maru 3 - 6 pm - time period 4 ( day 4) Maajh Gauri Tilang Tukhari Night 6 - 9 pm - time period 5 ( night 1) Sri Raag Jaitasari Maali-Gaura Basant Kedaara Kalyaan 9 - 12 am - time period 6 ( night 2) Bihaagara Sorath Nat-Naraayan Malaar Kaanrha Jaijawanti 12 - 3 am - time period 7 ( night 3) N/A 3 - 6 am - time period 8 ( night 4) Asa Raamkali Bhairaav Parbhati The note divisions are made as thus: a) Raags of the period 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. use Re and Dha. Raags of the period 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. use Re, Ga, Dha. c) Raags of the period 9 a.m. to 12 noon use Ga and Ni. d) Raags of the period 12 noon to 3 p.m. use Ga and Ni. e) Raags of the period 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. use Re and Dha. f) Raags of the period 6 p.m. to 9 a.m. use Re, Ga, Dha. g) Raags of the period 9 a.m. to 12 midnight use Ga and Ni. h) Raags of the period 12 midnight to 3 a.m. use Ga and Ni. It may be noted that there are three groups of ragas above: (a) and (e) go together; similarly ( and (f) may be bracketed while ©, (d), (g) and (h) form the third group. The difference between (a) and (e), however, lies in the addition of Ma (sharp Madhya) in the latter sung in the afternoon.

MUSICOLOGY Testing the Time Theory Indian music assigns each raga to a period of the day, but where lies the origin of this discipline? By Anthony Peter Westbrook, Maryland If there is one aspect of the classical music of India that sets it apart from other traditions, it is the theory that establishes a specific period of day for performing each melody form, or raga. "Orthodox musicians in India never play a raga at any other than its proper time," according to the late French musicologist Alain Daniélou, "for at the wrong hour it could never be developed so perfectly nor could it so greatly move an audience." As Walter Kauffman tells us, this is much more than just an aesthetic consideration; it is considered to have an effect on the environment. He writes, "The older generation of Indian musicians in particular still believes that disaster will be invoked if, for instance, an evening raga is performed in the morning or vice versa." Today this attitude prevails mainly in north Indian, or Hindustani, music. The South Indian, or Carnatic, tradition contains a highly developed theory of ragas and their performance times. "However, in Carnatic music today," writes P. Sambamoorthy, "there is no questioning the fact that the ragas sung during their allotted times sound best, but the time theory of ragas may be said to be only advisory and not mandatory." While this more liberal approach is quite alien to Hindustani music, it points to a lack of any theoretical basis for the time theory, as no ancient or medieval writer on the subject has left us any rational explanation for it. It was left to the late Pandit V.N. Bhatkhande (1860-1936) to systematize the rules generally observed by Indian musicians. To determine the performance times of each raga, Bhatkhande divided the day into eight praharas or watches, then assigned each raga to a specific prahara according to its underlying tonal characteristics. Each note in a raga has a certain level of importance vis-a-vis the other notes, and these relationships change subtly during the different times of the day. Each musician learns the various aspects of each raga, including its correct performance time and its rasa, or mood, from his guru. Thus there are literally thousands of subtleties which are learned but not formulated into a single body of theory. And in spite of some differences of opinion, there is a high degree of agreement regarding the correct performance time for most ragas. This is remarkable considering the number of ragas currently in use in north India, as well as the existence of different schools of music, or gharanas. It suggests that at some time in the past some common theoretical framework may have existed as the basis for the time theory. Today, however, there is little clear indication as to the origin of these practices. Scholars, such as Kaufmann, Bonnie Wade, Harold Powers and Emmie Nijenhuis, have suggested origins in the musical aspect of the classic Sanskrit drama, or the ritual chant of the Vedas. Mukhund Lath of the University of Rajasthan points out that while Bhatkhande's generalizations found great acceptance, no one has ever tried to display and work out the psychophysiological basis for the ragatime connection. Lacking such an empirical or theoretical basis, this unique aspect of Hindustani music is in danger of being compromised. Although the older generation of performers still regard the time theory as a critical aspect of their tradition, others, under the pressure of contemporary concert and recording schedules, are relaxing performance strictures. But if the traditional musicological literature provides no basis for the theory, where else should we look? Of all the aspects of Vedic literature which deal with cycles of time, ayurveda, the Vedic system of medicine, is one of the most significant, and there appears to be considerable evidence linking it with musical performance in ancient times. Daniélou wrote to me in 1992, "There exists a relation between various scales and the humours of the body. Any one expert in the music therapy of Ayurveda should be able to find out." He quotes Sangeetamakaranda I.2324: "One who sings knowing the proper time remains happy. By singing ragas at the wrong time one ill treats them. Listening to them, one becomes impoverished and sees the length of one's life reduced." The reference to the length of one's life provides another link to ayurveda, which can be rendered as "the science of longevity". Indeed, it does appear possible to correlate the diurnal cycle of the three ayurvedic doshas, vata, pitta and kapha, with the performance times of the ragas. This and other evidence would suggest the existence of an ancient view in which, in the area of health, music has a definite role to play

Admin could this topic please be moved to th Gurmat Sangat section. Dhanvaad

Chatanga ji, With all due respect, idiots like AK47 are doing 100 times more damage to the panth than what you think Namdharis are doing. Should accept that in all faiths of the world, divisions occur. I do not choose whether or not to befriend a Muslim depending on whether he is a sunni or shia'te, or whether Tibetan Buddists are right or Zen Buddists are right etc. Look at people as individuals. You are giving veer Fateh Singh a hard time over what? What are you going to accomplish or prove? Fateh Singh and many thousands of others have been born into their faith, which teaches them to believe in one God, jap naam and live in peace. They are innocent, why are you trying to hold them responsible for something that happened over 130 years ago? They are obviously happy in their faith, so let it be, you be happy in yours, you forget it is Vaheguru that is playing this game. Secondly at least get your facts right, Baba Partaap Singh Ji is the previous Namdhari Guru, so no point directing questions towards them. I will give you one serious suggestion, if you have questions for the Namdhari Guru, go to Bhaini Sahib, have Baba Jagjit Singh Ji's darshan and ask them these questions directly. Vaheguru

Thats very funny... "FRENCH CORPORATISM: You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows. You go to lunch. Life is good." So true!!!!!!!

Yes Indian sangeet does have an ancient Gurukul heritage, but we must not forget that in both South and North India religious tradition, classical sangeet existed in temples and was used for devotional kirtan and pooja. Only with the onset of Mughal invasions did it's use change, and it was diluted in the Mughal Darbaars. Although the Sufi's hugely benefited from this huge and ancient knowledge and used it to good and decent effect. This is the point at which musicians lost their "royal" status, and the slow decline of raaga and beautiful instruments such as the sarangi developed a bad repuation as favoured tools in supporting dancing girls. Our Guru sahibaan redeemed kirtan (classical sangeet) and brought it back to the house of God, giving it back it's royal status. The current gharana systems are relatively new, originally sponsered by cultured Raja's, but then declining during the British occupations. They started becomng popular again with stability arising after Independance. With regards to "Gurmat Sangeet" yes, this is a new term, but one which has been created to try and seperate puratan kirtan from the Bassetts Allsorts influx we see today. Unfortunately, many other new things have now started to appear under the heading of Gurmat Sangeet, so this obviously self explanotory term is now also being diluted. With regards to Sikh trainees only wanting to recieve training from Sikh musicians, this is news to me, I have not come across this? May be in small pockets i.e. some AKJ youth etc, but generally this is not true. Most Raagi/kirtani I know have been trained by Ustaads/Pandits/Gharanaas, or from people who have been. They hold basic raag knowledge, but don't use because they think the sangat will not like and thus not pay up. And actually, it is this very reason, i.e. Indian Classical influence, that many of the "well" raagis today distort kirtan maryada i.e. non use of rahao as astai, lack of drupad, ignoring the folk style, zero understanding of the ordained South Indian styles, and not sticking to title raag. It is the sangats responsibilty to make kirtna maryada popular again, and give those raagis that comply respect and reward, raagis were once treated as royalty in Guru ji's darbaar, today they are looked at suspiciously irrelevent of their intentions, and given meager incomes and treated badly by Gurdwarai committies. This is a complex problem with many variables, which needs to be corrected step by step. 1st thing is make Gurmat sangeet vidya freely available so everyone can understand the make up of raag and it's purpose in Gurbani, as well as education re the maryada in terms of the instructions given in Gurbani. This is happening today, in the UK Gurmat Sangeet Academy lead by Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji Lallie is doing a great service in the Midlands area, Bhai Sahib has been performing kirtan since childhood and has and is researching, whilst learning from top vocal and and intsrumental masters. Bhai sahib has many students and teaches Dilruba, Taus and now Sarangi, alongside vocals. They also study and Drupad. Raj Academy is an international Gurmat Sangeet school running the 1st Indian Classical/Gurmat Sangeet degree programme at Thames Valley University Music department. Professor Surinder Singh Ji has researched Gurmat Raags, Kirtan Maryada, Musicology (something which forms the crux of kirtan and has not been touched on by anyone to date). Professor Ji has also researched and made gigantic efforts to research, identify and revive traditional Sikh instruments, Taus, Saranda, Dilruba< Sarangi and Jori, and their manufactured instruments are now the instruments of choice of many top artists. They have been designed to replicate the acoustic design and size of originals which have been found. Professor ji has also released a monumental kirtan album which includes shabads in 59 Gurbani Raags, accompanied by a book which exlains the musicology - emotion of each raag, alongside translations of the shabads sung. The code for the 60th raag, Asa Asavari was finally cracked and can be heard on the 2nd album entitled "Anhad". There are many more amazing projects lined up that will be released soon, which will shed further light on the beauty of Guru Ji's kirtan. There may be some "blind" individuals around, but there are most definatley some hugely gifted and generous individuals around also, who have given their life to studying and bringing kirtanback to the people. Today, classes can be attended nearly 7 days a week in London for those who want to learn real kirtan, thanks to these hardworking sevadaars priceless efforts.

Baba Partap Singh performed a truely great service to the panth in their attempt to preserve Guru Ji's true kirtan maryada and kirtan asthetics. They were taught kirtan from the legendary Raagi Baba Harnaam Singh Ji (see picture below), who were also famous for their use of the beautiful Taus. Unfortunately no one has really made as great an effort to revive and preserve real Gurmat Sangeet to this extent since Baba Ji left us (in my opinion). We certainly do have people trying very hard today but there are a few different schools of thought re kirtan maryada, especially from people who treat oral tradition passed down to them as more reliable than a direct iand clear instruction from Maharaj in Gurbani. Baba Jagjit Singh Ji has also made a huge effort towards promoting kirtan, namley by sending many youngsters identified with potential to top Gharanai, Pandits and Ustaads to learn instruments, vocals and raag. Where as Baba Partaap Singh Ji focused "primarily" on Gurmant Sangeet, Baba Jagjit Singh Ji has also taken an interest in Indian Classical Music in general, in other art forms too such as classical dancing. Unfortunately, although it is excellent that a huge amount of Indian Classical Sangeet/art knowledge has been brought into the Namdhari camp and that they now are recognised as having some of the best practitioners in the world, one sad point has also started to occur, non-adherance to kirtan maryada. I am in no way saying that there isn't maryada any more, just that non adherenace is steadily increasing, I saw Bhai Baljeet Singh Ji during his recent tours in the UK, and they are a totally amazing raagi, their voice is astronimcal (regularly using the 4th octave, most of us struggle with the 3rd), and their tar shanai skills are amazing. But I never saw them complete the programmes I attended in "Ramkaali" Anand Sahib, which is the only shabad they announced the raag in, so it should have been adhered to, instead it was the normal 1 minute, superfast Anand sahib (possibly due to commitee pressure/Langar being ready, I don't know). And in the Shabad they sang, most were not in title raag, some were, others were possibly in raag outside of Maharaj. Also, I have been around a few very well known Namdhari Ustaads who I know practice non-title raag kirtan alongside hukmi raag. This is becoming common practice today. Although raag is being adhered to, the years of training under Indian Classical Guru's, is leading to huge influence of non Gurbani raags being used. I know of a person that met Baba Jagjit Singh Ji in the last few years and discussed with re "Nirdaareth" (title) raag not being adhered to, and asking them if they thought it should be, they replied it should be. Yet many Namdhari are not respecting their wishes? The mainstream is of course not innocent either, the very, very, very large majority haven't adhered to Sat-Guru Ji's hukum over the last half century. Where as Namdhari have at least kept to raag in general, and thus have the knowledge to apply title raag, the mainstream (in general) have near enough completely gone the other way, with wanting to please the sangat rather the Guru, and bringing in popular styles of music that most families felt comfortable with due to their bollywood hobbies, today we see ghazal, tumri, qwaali, pop, bhangra, folk (non-hukmi), Indian Classical and many other styles confusing the message of our Guru, which Guru Arjun Dev ji dedicated his life to presenting in the most perfect and unadulterable method - to ensure that all that heard Guru Ji' message heard it in the correct tone, felt it in the correct emotion and therefore understood it in the correct context. For those who could not understand Guru Ji during his Udasis, they could feel his message throught the magical rendition of the raag that Guru ji would have instructed Bhai Mardana Ji to play. Today, if a non-Sikh/Punjabi comes into the Gurwara seking spirituality and taste of the ancient and Bhai Daya Singh Ji's daughter (of OZ fame) is doing a shabad to the tune of Michael Jacksons latest offering, for someone who can't understand the words, what is this person going to feel? And same goes for latest craze of raagis doing kirtan to Tumri style of Indian Classical, which was developed in the Mughals cotiyan (dancing courts), and which aims to evoke sensual/lustful moods... normally done to the tune of famous bollywood film and an inappropriate scene... Our Guru's took oldest and most powerful of ancient vedic arts back from the Mughals (Darbari Rababis) (who had taken it and transformed a devotional tool to one for entertaining themselves, thus changing it's use and style) and gave it back to the people in it's most pristine pure form, Shabad Kirtan. There is a reason why Guru Ji has specified a certain raag before every shabad (par the start and finish of Gur-Bani), it is not just an historical reference. Luckily concerted efforts are today being made by a few people to revive and promote Guru ji's purtan kirtan and adherance to their instructions, alongside researching the effect of Guru ji's specific chosen raags and their effect on the human psyche, Guru di kirpa, there should be some publications coming out soon.

Hello, How do I attach/insert a picture from my hard drive to a post, I think the options have changed? Dhanvaad

I found this on the web, it refers to a sammelan that was organised by Baba Partaap Singh Ji (previous Namdhari Guru), who, irrelevent of peoples view on Namdharis, preformed a great service in preserving Gurmat Sangeet. I was wondering if there is any other information around regarding this seemingly great event, and if any recordings were ever made. Apologies if this has already been spoken of in the forum! It would be so great if something like this could be organised today... I love the specific mention of "prescribed raag" being the major rule, as this issue seems to be somewhat contentious today, even amongst Namdhari Raagis who have increasingly started performing in non title raag. I think this is probably due to the indian classical influence arising in their training. "Within The Aad Sri 'GURU' Granth Sahib are Shabads (Verses) dictated by 6 Satgurus in 31 prescribed Ragas. To instill the correct recitation of these Shabads in the respective Ragas as prescribed by the Satgurus, Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji had organized a Grand 'Gurmat Sangeet Sammelan' in the year 1934 A.D., which was attended by the Sikhs, Hindus as well as Muslims alike. There were two major rules for participants in this event. One was that Gurbani must be sung in the Raga prescribed in the Sri Granth Sahib and the other rule was that only stringed instruments such as Dilruba, Rabab, Sitar accompanied by Tablas could be used. No use of the european instrument, i.e. harmonium would be allowed. The second rule of only allowing stringed instruments posed a big problem to many well-known Ragis as only a handful were proficient in the use of stringed musical instruments. Presiding as judges were four highly qualified classical music enthusiasts which included the well known author of the epic 'Mahan Kosh', Bhai Kahn Singh of Nabha as well as Sardar Mukand Singh of Ambala who was a himself a great singer and prolific in the knowledge of Ragas."

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1...75&t=114875 By Rawel Singh Anand The Gospels are full of Jesus' praises, miracles performed by him, his crucifixion and resurrection. It is was the basis of selection? Is this how scriptures come into being? The Christian missionaries say that Bible is the Word of God. This does not appear from the contents of the New Testament. In which the only notable words attributedsaid that the four gospels were chosen. out of about forty existing at the time of selection. Who cho them what to God are "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. The reader may be aware of more gospels like the Gospel of Judas coming into news lately. There thus seems to be no authenticity of the New Testament. All religions have scriptures and life histories of their preceptors. Any doubts about the latter can be resolved in the light of the scriptures but in the case of the New Testament if the Gospels are in doubt, nothing is left. In the Gospels the only part of real spiritual value is the Sermon on the Mount. This does not find in two of the four gospels and in the other two the details and language are vastly different. Many parts are not common between the two. Also whereas throughout the Gospels the names of persons and places are mentioned both the latter gospels say 'a mountain'. This casts doubts whether the sermon was indeed delivered or it has been added in the two gospels later to show something spiritual. OF CHRISTIAN CONVERSION AGENDA MISSIONARIES Wide networks of Christian missionaries of their various denominations exist all over the globe. Missionary work is a legitimate activity of a faith to keep its followers and those of the other faiths informed about its faith. However Christian missionaries have an agenda of obtaining conversions from other faiths. They say things in such a manner that others get convinced. It needs to be stated at the outset that it is not the intention to criticize or denigrate Christianity as a religion but only to point out the types of things they say. For example they tell people that Jesus Christ was born to a virgin mother and is therefore the son of God; he gave his life for the sins of all and should therefore be accepted as a savior by all and that he rose from the grave walked the earth and was later carried by the clouds to heaven. No person with a reasoning power can accept these things as reasonable. Such things certainly make their presentation interesting but not convincing. That is why people including some Christians raise questions about these. That is why there are more atheists in Western countries having Christianity as he main religion than elsewhere. The purpose of this article is to find out the truth so that one is not misled by the tactics of the Christian missionaries. The Bible is the scripture of Christianity. It has two parts called the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is accepted as the scripture by the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Torah which comprises of the first five books of the Old Testament finds frequent reference in the Muslim scripture the Quran as does the New Testament. The New Testament covers the period of Jesus Christ and thereafter. Christians believe that the prophecies made by the earlier prophets and contained in the Old Testament were to be fulfilled in the New Testament. Those of major interest say that a Messiah was to come who would be the savior of the Jews. The Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah. It is well known that a prophecy is taken as fulfilled if that happens on its own. However the New Testament is at pains to see that these prophecies connected with the Messiah apply to Jesus. It is interesting to note that whereas the Quran accepts Jesus as a prophet it does not accept many things that the New Testament claims about him. The New Testament has three parts. The first part dealing with the birth, life and crucifixion of Jesus comprises of four Gospels. The second part contains the book of Acts describing the situation after Jesus' death and letters written to various destinations asking them to accept the new religion and is in the form of propaganda. The third part called Revelation shows the imagination of John about Jesus in heaven. The It 2:255). Sri Guru Granth Sahib the scripture of the Sikh religion says: God is everlasting; He is neither born nor He dies; He is indestructible and pervades all (Page 758). The Old Testament says: You shall fear the Lord thy God and serve Him and shall swear by His name (Deuteronomy 6:13) It is therefore surprisimg that Jesus is given status equal to God. But there seems to be a reason for this and that is to project Jesus as high as possible so that his stature is seen higher than the others and is easily accepted. In order to improve acceptability many stories have been made in connection with Jesus. They are like fairy tales as are told to children or to impress people. For example they say thmay come as a surprise to many that Jesus was not the founder of Christianity although it carries his name. He was born and died as a Jew. Establishment of Christianity was due to the efforts of Paul and Peter. Paul was opposed to Jesus during his lifetime and converted later. Jesus, referring to the laws made in the Old Testament had said "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). But Paul went against this and said "But before faith came we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed" (Galatians 3:23). Jesus had condemned the practices of the Jews during his lifetime which was responsible for his crucifixion. Paul's utterances poisoned the relations further exacerbating the antipathy. Jesus had said that he had come to fulfill the earlier scriptures. Once Jesus asked his disciples "Whom do men say that I Son of man am" (Matt 16:13). To this they named earlier prophets. He asked them again "Whom say ye that I am"? Peter replied "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God" (Matt 16:16). Jesus complimented him and said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church" (Matt 16:18). He did not say that a new religion would be founded. It later transpired that Peter did not believe Jesus and Jesus told him "Satan: thou art an offence unto me" (Matt 16:23). Later the same Peter thrice denied that he knew Jesus (Matt 26:70-74). Peter's conduct described above indicates that he satisfied Jesus' expectation of endorsement and sycophancy; he did not have faith in Jesus and his denial shows that he had no commitment to Jesus. But it was on him the Jesus had intended to build his church. Jesus had said beforehand that Peter would deny him thrice but did not revise his statement about Peter being the foundation of the church. Also Peter was the only disciple of Jesus who had gone to see the grave after it was reported that Jesus had risen and gone (Luke 24:12).This would show that the church that came into being after Jesus was based on seeking endorsement, sycophancy, lack of faith and denial. This may seem blasphemous but that is the only inference that can be drawn from the scriptural references given above. The way Christianity came into being it was natural that fissures should occur among its followers. This is what happened in course of time. At present there are numerous denominations of Christianity differing from one another in many ways. They also seek conversions from one another. A lot of blood was shed in the intercine So next time when a Christian missionary comes and asks you to convert ask him the number of Christian denominations and which denomination he wants you to join. He should also be advised to first establish unity within his faith and then ask others to join his faith. Who would like to go where such divisions exist? Please tell him we are happy where we are. Christian missionaries are professionals who have been trained in the art of convincing people. They are easily able to convince gullible people of other faiths. So one needs to be on guard when approached by them. They are very sweet to talk to but soon start showing their true colors. For example in the end of 2004, the Tsunami waves caused extensive damage particularly in Indonesia. Many organizations went for aid among which were Christian. While the others provided help it was heard on the television channels that while there were only some percentage of Christians there then but after some time they would all or mostly become Christians. What a pity that even at that time of suffering these people could think of converting people simply by providing aid. Those receiving aid beware! Christian missionaries choose those areas for their operations where the people are poor and need help. With considerable resources at their command they first establish facilities like schools and hospitals. They tell the people that they have come there to serve. Then slowly they try to attract people to their faith either by offering concessions or preference in employment to Christians. Because poverty is a fertile ground for their operations, Christian missionaries say that poverty is a gift of God. They literally try to buy the poor people's conscience with their resources. Is that service? All religions teach that tempting people is sin. Even their own Bible says "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes fro the mouth of God" (Matt 4:4). They should be asked why they are asking others to come to Christianity when they do not themselves follow it. They should be politely told "No thank you, we are happy with our own religion; at least we practice it". Christian missionaries talk of God once in a while but their main emphasis is not on God but on Jesus. They emphasize that the only way to salvation is by accepting Jesus Christ as the savior. They do not hesitate to equate him to God but also call him god. All those who believe in God can never accept this position. How can a man who is born qnd dies be given this status? For them the only one fit for worship is one God. All faiths are unanimous on this. The Hindu scripture Gita says: God is the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the dearest friend. He is the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything; the resting place and the eternal seed (9:18). The Quran says: God, none else is fit for worship; He is everlasting, neither dozes off nor goes to sleep. Whatever is in the heavens or earth is all His (at Jesus was born to Virgin Mary through the Holy Ghost and therefore Jesus is the son of God. This is an attempt to project as truth something which in reality was different. The first story goes like this. God sent an angel to Mary to inform her that she would bear a child without the usual process of impregnation. This was done because it is forecast in the Old Testament that a virgin shall give birth to a child (Isaiah 7:14). the word used in the original Hebrew version of the scripture uses the word 'Almah' which means 'young woman'. Similarly the original version of the New Testament in Greek uses the word 'Parthenos' which again means young woman. It is only in the Christian versions of the Bible the word virgin has been used. It is a pity that such attempts should be made in respect of scriptures just to show that Jesus' birth was miraculous. The New Oxford Annotated Bible mentions young woman1. There are two widely different stories about Jesus' birth. The first story says that when Jesus was born, a star appeared in the East. Some people were sent by the king to go and search where he was born; they departed and the star went before them stopping where the young child was (Matt 2:9). An amusing story yes, but can it be true? Probably the author of the story wants people to believe that stars are so near the earth that a star can indicate the location of a house? Since the star appeared on Jesus' birth it should have been there during his life time but there is no mention of what happened to it after that. This type anomaly occurs when astory is made up. Here is the second story. Jesus' mother had been informed by God's angel "The holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). This was supposed to be a gift of God. The mother gave birth on due date and "Wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the manger because there was no room for them in the inn" (Luke 2:7). It is obvious that parents of the unborn baby were staying in an inn at the time of his birth. It is worth pondering whether a gift of God would be thrown into a manger like this. Even if the child was not considered a gift of God, but a child born under normal circumstances would any parents be so cruel as to put their newly born child in a manger? The story of no room in the inn has been made just to explain why the child was put in the manger. The real reason is that like other things it is an effort to show that the prophecy in the Old Testament "Voice of him that cries in the wilderness" (Isaiah 40:3) was being fulfilled and prove that Jesus was the Messiah. Making comments on a preceptor is not a matter of happiness; in fact it is one of sadness because one does not know what to believe. Neither of the stories seems to be true. This casts doubts whether a personality with the name Jesus ever existed. The Gospels do not give further details of Jesus' life until he is about 30 years old. At this age he was baptized by John the Baptist according to the Jewish practice. Here is the next fairy tale like story. "And lo the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. And lo a voice from heaven saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" (Matt 3:16-17). Jesus was then made available to the devil to be tempted. He was asked to turn stone into bread but he refused tshow a miracle saying "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" (Matt 4:4). When the devil promised him all the kingdoms of the world and glory if he worshipped the devil, Jesus told him "Get thee out of hence Satan for it is written, thou shall worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve" (Matt 4:10). After this the devil left him and angels came and Jesus assumed ministry at the age of 30 which lasted for about three years. With this the process of Jesus performing miracles started during which period he also taught people including saying that no one could go to God, the Father except through him. He also said "And no man had ascended to heaven but he that came from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Christianity teaches that no one except Jesus shall go to heaven, and every one wants to go to heaven, then why should any one become a Christian? The highlight of the period from then on is performance of miracles by Jesus is one of pain for those who do not accept any one equal to God. Jesus is shown to say and do things agaist which he had himself taught. Given below are some examples of this. Bible (Matt 15:4) asks man to honor his father and mother, but when one of his disciples asks permission to go and bury his dead father, Jesus does not allow him saying "Follow me; let the dead bury their dead" (Matt 8:22). On another occasion when he was informed that his mother and brother wanted to meet him, Jesus said "Who is my mother? And who are my brethren"? Then pointing his hand towards his disciples said they were his mother and brethren. He further said "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister and mother" (Matt 12:47-50). It is agreed that one should not have attachment to one's relatives but not letting bury one's father or refusing to meet his mother does not seem right from any standards. Or was he trying to convey that either his family did not believe in God or he could not get along with them? Jesus had said "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt 5:5), but when a man asked Jesus to cure his son of lunacy, he lost his temper and said "O' faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you abd how long shall I suffer you? Bring hither to me" (Matt 17:17). There are three significant points in this. Firstly a divine person could not have used such contemptuous language and secondly this language was used for a whole generation, not just one man indicating everyone was bad. This is very antithesis of spirituality. Thirdly it cuts at the very concept that Jesus had eternal life since he himself asked how long he would be there. That means he was like any other mortal Similarly when some Jewish leaders asked him to show them a sign from heaven he used still more offensive language when he said " A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign and there shall be no sign given unto it" (Matt 16:4). Again once when Jesus was hungry he went to a fig tree but found no fruit on it. He lost his temper and cursed the tree "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth for ever" (Matt 21:19). Jesus made another strange statement. He was asked why his disciples did not wash their hands before eating. His reply was "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts false witness, blasphemies; these are the things which defile a man but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (matt 15:19-20). It must be accepted that clean mind is essential, but surely that does not justify not washing the hands before eating which is necessary to prevent contamination. The Bible including the Ten Commandments teaches against adultery. On the other hand in the Western countries where Christianity is the predominant religion no body talks about it. Pre-marital and extra-marital sex is taken as a way of life. The institution of marriage is not respected. The only subject of discussion in this regard is whether abortion should be freely allowed or restricted. This virus is spreading fast. We need to practice the principle of sex-with-spouse only and protect our children against casual sex, by teaching and example. The Gospels are full of miracles performed by jesus. As mentioned above he had initially refused to perform the miracle of turning stones into bread. Later, after cleaning a man of his leprosy, told him "See you tell no man but go your way, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded for a testimony unto them" (Matt 8:4). Afterwards however he started performing miracles frequently. These included curing of fever, restoring eye sight, cleaning of leprosy, removing lunacy, exorcising evil spirits, reviving the dead and feeding 5000 people with a small quantity of bread. There were so many and it appears that that is for what Jesus had assumed ministry. At least that is what the Bible indicates. John the Baptist e sent two men to Jesus ask he was the Messiah. Jesus replied "Go your way and tell John the things you have seen and heard: how the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached" (Luke 7:22). It seems very strange that a spiritual teacher instead of saying what he did to remove ignorance and lift the people spiritually talks only of miracles. This is confirmation of the fact which many religions teach, that one who performs miracles goes on a path that leads away from God. This is clear from the fact that initially he refused to perform a miracle and when he did, he did not advertise but asked the man to go and make an offering. Oce he got busy in miracles it was only praise of him that mattere.Men of God are in fact ashamed even to talk of miracles. According to them miracles are nothing but tricks of a magician: Performance of miracles is like a play, they are evil Men of God are ashamed even to talk of them. It appears that as Jesus performed more miracles he not only started thinking but calling himself God. For example he asked his disciples to go to the village and bring an ass and a colt which they would find there. He further told them that if any one questioned you say "The Lord has need of them" (Matt 21:3). On another occasion he told his disciples "you call me Master and Lord; and you say well; for so I am" (John 13:13). He not only equated himself to God but said that when he sits on the throne of glory, his twelve disciples would also sit on the throne and judge the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28). All this shows that he had started feeling proud. It is an accepted fact that God likes humility not pride. It appears that because of this pride Jesus drifted and was ultimately forsaken by God. As we have sen above he had started using intemperate language. This was the first sign of his losing sing sight of God's presence. After this, performance of miracles took him further away from God. This was felt by Jesus when a woman touched his garment. He said "Somebody has touched me for I perceive that virtue has gone out of me (Luke 8:46). Jesus' drifting away from God resulted in his spirit being weakened. For example at a meal which is called the last supper, he broke bread, gave it to his disciples saying "Take, eat: this is my body". He took the cup and after thanks gave to the disciples saying "Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood" (Matt 26:26-29). Then he said "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me" (Matt 26:38). After he was crucified at the cross some people mocked at him saying he saved others let him save himself and come down from the cross. Jesus felt helpless and cried "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Mark 15:34). In spite of all this Christian missionaries do not tire of saying that Jesus alone can save. Who will believe that one who has been forsaken by God can save others? Another thing they say is that Jesus gave his life for many for remission of sins (Matt 26:28). Except for such statements there is nothing in the Bible to show that he died for others. Jesus was punished based on accusations by the Jewish priests. They had said "We have the law, and by our law he ought to die, because he called himself the son of God". So Jesus died because being a Jew he broke the law. Also those who die for a cause do not try to avoid death but he did not want to die. The Bible says "And he went forward a little and fell on the ground, and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him", and he said "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me; nevertheless not that I will, but what you will" (Mark 14:35-36). It is significant that he said all this even before he was arrested and tried. It appears that some people have taken this statement of Jesus dying for sins of all seriously because they are convinced that whatever they do, they will be saved by Jesus. This seems to be the reason for the minds being in turmoil and violations of scriptural teachings rampant. A little thought would tell that no one can die for the sins of others. The principle of you shall rep what you sow is universal. Whatever good or evil man does goes into his account and he is judged accordingly. That is the concept of judgment day in the Semitic religions and the account maintained by Chitra-Gupt in Eastern religions. The Christian missionaries also talk of Jesus' second coming i.e. he is to come again. They use this to attract people to their faith. In this connection they quote chapter 24 0f Matthew in the New Testament which talks of destruction of the temple, wars, famines and earthquakes ang then Jesus will come. They also say that situation in the world is now building up as given in the bible so Jesus is coming. Thy say this despite Jesus saying "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34). Jesus was referring to his resurrection and not a later period. Resurrection of Jesus when he is reported to have risen from the grave is considered the foundation of Christianity. The Bible says "If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:14). That means Christianity is based on a dogma and not on teachings. If this dogma is in doubt what happens to the Christian religion? The details of resurrection given in the four Gospels significantly differ from one an other which indicates that the details are not based on personal knowledge but hearsay. For example they all differ on who went to see the grave, what or who was found in the grave, where did Jesus go after rising. One person who was there in all cases was Mary Magdalene. She is considered to have had close to Jesus and was present at his crucifixion. In one of the accounts she fids a man standing next to the grave but thinks he is the gardener, whereas actually it was Jesus. She realizes this when he calls her by her name. It may be said that if she did not recognize the man it was not Jesus. The Quran gives considerable details of Jesus' life. The whole of chapter 19 is devoted to Jesus' mother Mary, which the Bible had omitted. The Quran accepts Jesus as a prophet and acknowledges his miracles. On the subject of his his crucifixion however it says "and their saying surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God, and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in doubt about it, they have no knowledge respecting it but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure" (Quran 4:157, translation by M.H. Shakir on web site The Koran). It appears a look alike of Jesus was crucified. If Jesus was not crucified the question of resurrection would not arise. All in all the story of resurrection cannot be true. Children going to Christian run schools need to be educated in their own religion and also told to be ware of attempts at conversion because they are slowly brain-washed and then motivated to become Christians. The author wishes to admit that writing this small pamphlet has not made him happy, in fact it has made him sad for criticizing someone. It is again emphasized that the purpose of writing was to suggest caution when confronted by Christian missionaries and not to find faults with their religion. Yes it is strongly felt that dogmas take one away from the essentials of religion and should not be its basis. 1 Michael D. Coogan, ed., The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 3rd Ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 988. See Isaiah 7:14 in the Hebrew Bible section.

Dear veer T Singh Ji, My comment re being fanatical about Sikhi was refering to Sikhi in it's true, original, universal sense. And I don't beleive there is anything wrong with that, for these "true" fanatics encompass all those one sighted truely enlightened souls from all faiths and walks of life who see opportunity for man through his actions and not his narrowed belief. The true Gurmukh and Sikh is found and recognised through his love, seva and acceptance of all, not through his religion. The reason I posted that sentance is because I feel insulted when people keep insinuating Sikhi is some dirty thing to be fanatical about, if some people don't understand what Sikhi means, that does not mean the rest of us should use the word cautiously due to it's now common interpretation. Dear veer Fateh Singh Ji, In continuation of the above, we must also be tolerant and respectful of other peoples beliefs and traditions, "mainstream" Sikhs respect and treat Maharaj with much satkaar and their are loving traditions that are followed when Maharaj is to travel, this is not a narrow minded inpractical view of the "mainstream" only, but all puratan Sikh sampradas. The same way that the majority of members on this forum tolerate and or respect/accept your right to your beliefs, you should do the same, and not keep having little digs at mainstream practices, which the majority perform out of love and devotion also. I am not going to get into a debate about this and pray you will understand and accept what I am saying. If Sikhs are offended by seeing their Guru being carried around in a suitcase, when it is entirely possible to transport Guru Ji with all due respect (short car journey), then please don't be surprised. We need to seperate acknowledgement of lack of respect from the stupid and offensive actions of a few uneducated and mislead youth. These issues do need to be dealt with, but in a mature manner. The point of posting the above plane article was to show what is possible if people have respect and resource, in the past resources like this didn't exist, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve and implement respect further than was previously possible. Vaheguru

Flight of the holy scriptures Sikh community arranges mass airlift Books travel from India to Brampton LESLIE SCRIVENER FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER On a typical day, SkyLink Aviation's workhorse aircraft deliver troops, trucks and medical supplies to the world's hot spots. But this Sunday, one of its charter planes will touch down in Toronto on a delicate, sacred mission: delivering 149 Sikh holy books, each occupying its own linen-draped seat and each on its own pillow. The scriptures, known as Guru Granth Sahib, are accorded the same honour due a living teacher or guru. The airlift from the Sikh Golden Temple in Amritsar — the only place in the world where the scriptures are officially published — marks what's believed to be the first mass air delivery of scriptures. In the past, the books came to Canada one by one, some reverently on the laps of immigrating Sikhs, some in the luggage compartment, which caused distress among the pious. A Sikh student recalls stowing his oversized copy of the Guru Granth Sahib in his rucksack on a flight from London to New Delhi and being reprimanded by the Sikh religious authority when he arrived in Amritsar. "They said I had shown great disrespect. The Granth should not be in the luggage compartment but treated like any human being, but more so — as a guru, with great reverence," said the Toronto man, who asked not to be named. The books leave the Golden Temple Saturday with pomp and ceremony. Roads will be closed; there will be a motorcade, military band and ministers of state. The $235,000 flight has been funded by donations from the Sikh community. On board the Russian-built Tupelov 154 will be five devout Canadian Sikhs, who will cover their heads and go barefoot as they would in a Sikh place of worship, which is called a gurdwara, meaning door to enlightenment. The men will fast on the 24-hour journey, which includes Moscow and Iceland stopovers; no alcohol will be on board. Surjit Babra, chair and president of Toronto-based SkyLink, will be on the airplane, too. "This is a first historic flight," Babra said yesterday from New Delhi, en route to Amritsar. "We fly everywhere for a lot of humanitarian reasons, but this is a very emotional thing for me to do this for the first time for my guru. I feel blessed to serve." The books arrive at 8 a.m. Sunday at Pearson airport, marking this year's 400th anniversary of the compilation of the scriptures and shortly before Vaisakhi celebrations, April 13, which remember the foundation of the Sikh brotherhood, or Khalsa, in 1699. Once landed, the books will be escorted under the protection of parasols to three buses, where, again, each book will have its own seat. Drummers and singers will join in the procession. Thousands are expected to welcome the scriptures at the offices of Sacha Sauda, a Sikh charitable organization on Steeles Ave. E. in Brampton, which distributes religious and historical literature without charge. The Guru Granth Sahibs will be given to local gurdwara and individual homes. Plans to drop flower petals from a helicopter along the processional route were cancelled this week because police had security concerns. Sikh scriptures are the overarching authority in the Sikh faith, says T. Sher Singh, community leader and Guelph lawyer. "Gurus are not worshipped, but they are emulated only in what they teach. They are not as important as the message. As in the Christian sense, the word is everything." As Guru Gobind Singh, the 10th and last of the great Sikh teachers, lay dying in 1708, he ordered that there would be no human successor after him. Faithful Sikhs would look only to the divinely inspired scriptures for guidance. The Guru Granth Sahib is unusual as a religious authority because it also contains poetry and devotional hymns from Islam and Hinduism, the dominant religions in India when the Sikh faith evolved. The genesis of the faith lies in revelations to Guru Nanak, a pious herdsman charged by God to deliver his message. This mission is unusual for SkyLink's Babra and his partner Walter Arbib, the company's chief executive officer. The duo, while preparing for the airlift of holy books, are finishing off transporting medical equipment and food materials to Haiti for Canada's armed forces and preparing to move United Nations workers into Sudan, anticipating that a peace treaty will soon be signed there. They've organized humanitarian relief flights to the most troubled regions of the world — Central America after earthquakes, Kosovo during war — often with only a few hours to get their planes in the air. SkyLink was the first western airline allowed to land in North Korea, to deliver potato seeds during the famine there.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "Sikh" Fanatic, I think the subject is incorrectly titled. I am sure most people on this forum, and this thread and fanatical about the true path and Sat-Guru's teachings and jeevans. Conversation here seems to in be in the most part, that they are completely wrong or justified. As with everthing else in life surely there is a middle ground? I'm not denying that there are utter rude idiots out there, I have been disgusted by the Namdhari vindication I have seen on you tube with commentry by an uneducated, unreligious guy who is apparently running the campaign (AK47?). This campaign is obviously a complete waste of time and has no basis. But at the same time, there are people who do beadbi, like carrying Maharaj around in an old suitacase to akhand paaths, and akhand-paaths at newly opened off-licences, drinking on Gurdwara premises, taking Maharaj to a hotel (where waiters walk aroung Maharaj with shoes on and hair uncovered, smoke, and meat/sharab is prepared/kept in the adjoining room). We can probably learn more than a thing or two about the holyness and simplicity of Sikh marriage from Namdhari's. I think we need to be logical about this and look at these things case by case, I am glad that these hypocrites and faithless people are being identified, but there is more than one way to put on pressure and educate people than resorting to violence and insult. Also, where beadbi is identified, responsible mature religious elders should lead in conversing and deciding if it is actually beadbi, or just a slight cultural difference, which has been tolerated in the past by the panth, and so should continue to be so. This would also get around the problem of youngsters insulting elders. I know that there are genuine Gursikh who attend some of these campaigns which relate to genuine insults to Sikhi, and many simply protest by way of sitting down and doing naam simran, we shouldn't bundle everyone together. I would advise, where there is a problem and a youngster knows of it, speak to elder calm Gursikh from other Gurdwarai or ven other towns, arrange for them to come down and discuss the issue with the accused, and give the accused a chance to explain. Where there is blatant beadbi, and it's very stubborn and foolish people that are responsible, then we need to let panj pyare decide action. There is tolerance but their is also insult, which has not been tolerated in the past i.e. Ram Rai and the Masands. One thing I personally hate, but have never done anything about, is the Ramgharia practice of calling Gurdwara property/halls, Jassa Singh Ramgharia hall, and renting it for parties, where drinking, meat, and smoking (toilets and outside) occurs regularly. Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgharias misl was known to be very devotional, his sons were both respected as jeevan valai Gursikh, to the point where Ranjit Singh (M) used to call Sardaar Jodh Singh, Baba ji,even though he was his junior. Today we honour their courage and bhagti by naming a boozing hall after them, charming, and geat promotion of the Ramgharia Misl's valour.

The semetic religions also use metaphors and concepts same as eastern religions, the only difference "was", that most followers of semetic faiths stopped seeing them as that and started interpreting literally, the same of which is true for our faith day by day, as can be seen from some of the comments above. A priest friend of mine at Uni once made my day when he reconciled Science and the Bible in a short discussion. I quized him on how the world could be made in 7 days, he replied "who can say how long the Lords day is", answered a lot of questions for me.... The point of any divine teaching is how to live your life in the present, not get stuck in and waste time discussing concepts for which there will never be an agreement. Prophets of semetic faiths simply used existing concepts to make man think about his actions, it is no coincidence Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same concepts, all of which are based on Zorasterism revelation of armagedon and named angels, the respected Zarathustra first brought forward these ideas and those of one God and rejection of ritual. The same way Guru Sahiban have used swarg/narag, semetic concept, reincarnation etc, all concepts which already existed so that they could speak to and communicate with all types of man with all types of understanding. The core message was not to get stuck in the details, but learn to live a Gursikh jeevan, a jeevan of truth and selflessness. Ultimately to bring Gods name to your heart mind and soul, and thus to all your thoughts, emotions and actions. Vaheguru

N3O Ji, I'm not sure Who the raagi is veer ji, I just came across this recently, I think it is a recent recording from the Raag Ratan (Basant?) at Darbaar Sahib. If you can get hold of the programme, it will reveals the Raagi's names. Veer Ji, I'm not so great at IT, could you tell me how to download it please? Vaheguru

Dear veer Gurpreet Singh Ji, thank you so much. I have never heard of these journals before, someone needs to record the contents and publish them for us all to share before they are lost, stolen or deteriorate. These journals could hold many answers to current maryada and historical viewpoints. Any volunteers?

RUPZ Ji, with all due respect Gurmat Sangat is being discussed here, which differs from mainstream kirtan. Here are more relevant examples of Hukmi kirtan: http://www.mediamax.com/satnaam/Hosted/gurmukhs/raag_ratan Vaheguru

Veer N3O Singh Ji, Yes, puratan reetan should be preserved, but more important is preserving Guru Ji's kirtan maryada and preserving the knowledge. Reetan are most important in terms of the vaaran within Maharaj, 9 out of the 22 vaars have mentions of specific dhunis. In my opinion, this is the most endangered or even already lost element of kirtan. The dhuni's are folk renditions/reetan which were used for many years to retell sories i.e. Gujri ki vaar is to be sung in Sikandar Biraahim ki vaar kee dhuni. I am unsure how many of the 9 dhuni's survive today (par Asa). That aside, enough knowledge exists between people regarding Gurmat Sangeet, ultimately Maharaj over-rides eveyones theories and inherited knowledge. Guru Ji has provided us with a kirtan framework (the structure of Maharaj), which must be adhered to in order to hear Guru Ji's voice (mood, expression in title raag), but within that Guru Ji has also given his Sikhs space for creativity, to composes an infinite number of compositions for the relevant shabads in the set raag. Bhai Avtaar Singh Ji was a legend, I respect him very much. Especially as he had the humulity and sharda to accept the Taus that Professor Surinder Singh Ji gifted to them at such a mature age and start playing it again in order to inspire us new adherents to Guru Ji's gifts. Bhai Sahib was on top of his career when he made this switch, he did not have to, but it takes a lot of courage and wisdom to accept and change a mindset which has been settled for such a long time. I don't see any other raagi/kirtani in such a prominent position making such a big change at the height of their career, from a simple humble request from a younger person. That aside, I know Bhai Sahib had much communication with Namdhari's so am pretty sure much of their knowldge re reetan etc came from their as well as what they had inherited, esp with regards to their publications. Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji I haven't met or really listened to that much, but from what I know they spend a lot of time researching and in their workshop building designer saaj! They have also done a great service in promoting aspects of Gurmat Sangeet and Guru Ji's saaj, esp the Jori, whic was invented by Guru Arjun Dev Ji (they split the Punjabi Pakavaj in half), in order to provide a more powerful and versatile drum (so it could reach a much larger sangat), the tabla is a recent invention, tailored to suit audio recording and radio in the early 1900's. They are also adherents of the drupad style. Don't foget that Guru Gobind Singh Ji invented the Kayal style, the first historical reference to Kayal is in the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, this style is very different to Drupad, it is not restricted and very versatile, to go with said bani. Newer styles like tumri etc are derived from Kayal, but have a different use i.e. romantic/sensual, in people terms, rather than spiritual terms. Tumri was invented for and used in Mughal darbaars and cotiaan. I see many kirtani using tumri in Guru Ghar, but it clearly does not belong there, music is the highest art form, and one which has a powerful impact on the mind, which is why our Masters utilised it to support shabad propogation. This topic can go on for ever, so I'll stop for now....

Cool, I didn't know Baba Jagjit Singh Ji played the Saranda as well. Does anyone have a recording? The painting of Baba Shaam Singh Ji I have heard is inaccurate, the painting is based on photograph at their Dera, but apparently the Saranda is missing, also, Baba Ji's real Sarandai were stolen and have been replaced by cheaper inaccurate models. The Saranda Baba Jagjit Singh Ji is playing is more Puratan size, of which 3 sizes have been found - 9.5, 10.5 and 11.5 inch models, the Saranda in Baba Shaam Singh Ji's painting is comparetively tiny! Here is another version of the painting, I will try and locate the original photos of Baba Shaam Singh Ji and their Sarandai.

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh, Sangat Jeeo, It would be really nice if some of the forum sangat (who are able) could join us on the 24th of March for an evening of Puratan Kirtan and Simran in raag Suhi (in South London), all done in Guru Maharajs kirtan maryada, using only Guru Ji's divine instruments.... Hope to see you there (please wear name tags with your forum names so that I can recognise you....just jesting).

Dear Veer Ji, The one single biggest problem the whole world faces is "I". Try counting how many times you have used the word in your above post. As long as "I" remains the dominant factor in your mind (an animal survival instinct), "you" or "tu" can not flourish, and it is in "tu" - "Vaheguru" that liberation, understanding and peace is found. The ways to get rid of "I" are many, maya works it's wonders on us and our mind strengthens maya's web. Try and not look at others and compare yourself, just learn to be at peace with your self, at peace with who and how you are, then work on yourself, step by step. We must learn to entice and win over our mindm and give power and to our atma, but this will only happen with "tu" on our mind. It is he who's nadar and kirpa will allow our atma to flourish. Keep him on your mind, day and night, in all your actions and thoughts, before and after each task, and the "I" will slowly disappear, then individuality will no longer matter. A spiritual man of any faith - has only one wish, to find God, find peace and return to God. Inthe most basic essence, as long as we strive individuality (ego), how can we want to be part of God, part of his creation, part of the panth, part of a family, part of mankind.... for merging with akaal, ones individuality is meaningless, it is a hinderance. The world is in such strife because people want to be different, and want to be known for being different, and think they have the intelligence to be better than others. Peace is achieved in Sadh Sangat, in charity, in simran, in seva, in unity, in us and you, and not I. You need to find some Gursikh and do sangat, change your company, you need influence, as we all do. The funny thing is, unintentionally, one can find more individuality in Sikhi than anywhere else, our Guru's were Masters of many Arts and strived for the highest standards, but at teh same time were humble and sharing in nature. Take up an instrument of our Guru's, Saranda, Taus,Dilruba, Sarangi, Rabab, Jora...and many others which also are good for kirtan i.e. esraj, sitar, tar-shanai... learn raag, learn to compose, learn to do kirtan, study the many,many sikh related texts/granths, learn the history of the panth in it's many faces, learn Martial arts, learn santhia of Sri Dasam Granth, Sri Sarbloh Granth, Learn laguages - Sanskrit, Persian, Braj...learn architecture and help maintain Guru's architecture... I can go on. The Sikh fold offers many opportunities to be individual at the same time as serving the panth and contributing positively to society. The individuality us manmukhs crave is in fact the band wagon, and not individual at all. Thinking we believe in God, and not following his given advice because our intellegince and common sense is far superior to the holy words of his reflection on Earth (Guru Sahiban) - is the common mindset in nearly all young religious communities in the world today. At work, in my eyes, all my collegues are similar, they all strive to be different, but their differences are superficial, there mind frameworks are the same, they are enticed and find pleasure in the same things, it's just the wallpaper that is slightly different. Yet they all have good qualities which are similar also, a product of Christian influenced upbringing, although as yourself, they put this down to common sense rather than say Jesus Christ has indirectly influenced their personality. Although I am in no way a "role model" gursikh, I am easily seen as the "different" person in the office, but not in a bad way i.e. fanatic. All I try and do is follow my Guru's divine words and try to follow in their and the many great Gursikhs footsteps that have graced this Earth. But even when I am simply trying to the same as my loved ones, my thinking and appearance differs from my colleagues, this is Guru Ji's bakshish and has nothing at all to do with me. Guru Ji has given his children the gift of individuality and unity at the same time, we see all as his children, yet live differently, to serve all his children. I pray that Vaheguru is kind to you, if you really want his help, please do heartfelt ardaas, again and again, with complete faith and focus (no doubts), true benti "never" falls on deaf ears. God bless you.

Why Rasta folk do not cut their hair and drink wine/alchohol: "Num.6 [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: [3] He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. [4] All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. [5] All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no rasor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow." "For many people it's because of that and it makes meditation more stronger, gives better connection to unity and to Jah. "

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ mehlaa 1. First Mehl: ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਿਆਰਿ ਲਗਾ ਥਣ ਦੁਧਿ ॥ पहिलै पिआरि लगा थण दुधि ॥ pahilai pi-aar lagaa than duDh. First, the baby loves mother's milk; ਦੂਜੈ ਮਾਇ ਬਾਪ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥ दूजै माइ बाप की सुधि ॥ doojai maa-ay baap kee suDh. second, he learns of his mother and father; ਤੀਜੈ ਭਯਾ ਭਾਭੀ ਬੇਬ ॥ तीजै भया भाभी बेब ॥ teejai bha-yaa bhaabhee bayb. third, his brothers, sisters-in-law and sisters; ਚਉਥੈ ਪਿਆਰਿ ਉਪੰਨੀ ਖੇਡ ॥ चउथै पिआरि उपंनी खेड ॥ cha-uthai pi-aar upannee khayd. fourth, the love of play awakens. ਪੰਜਵੈ ਖਾਣ ਪੀਅਣ ਕੀ ਧਾਤੁ ॥ पंजवै खाण पीअण की धातु ॥ punjvai khaan pee-an kee Dhaat. Fifth, he runs after food and drink; ਛਿਵੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਜਾਤਿ ॥ छिवै कामु न पुछै जाति ॥ chhivai kaam na puchhai jaat. sixth, in his sexual desire, he does not respect social customs. ਸਤਵੈ ਸੰਜਿ ਕੀਆ ਘਰ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ सतवै संजि कीआ घर वासु ॥ satvai sanj kee-aa ghar vaas. Seventh, he gathers wealth and dwells in his house; ਅਠਵੈ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਹੋਆ ਤਨ ਨਾਸੁ ॥ अठवै क्रोधु होआ तन नासु ॥ athvai kroDh ho-aa tan naas. eighth, he becomes angry, and his body is consumed. ਨਾਵੈ ਧਉਲੇ ਉਭੇ ਸਾਹ ॥ नावै धउले उभे साह ॥ naavai Dha-ulay ubhay saah. Ninth, he turns grey, and his breathing becomes labored; ਦਸਵੈ ਦਧਾ ਹੋਆ ਸੁਆਹ ॥ दसवै दधा होआ सुआह ॥ dasvai daDhaa ho-aa su-aah. tenth, he is cremated, and turns to ashes. ਗਏ ਸਿਗੀਤ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ਧਾਹ ॥ गए सिगीत पुकारी धाह ॥ ga-ay sigeet pukaaree Dhaah. His companions send him off, crying out and lamenting. ਉਡਿਆ ਹੰਸੁ ਦਸਾਏ ਰਾਹ ॥ उडिआ हंसु दसाए राह ॥ udi-aa hans dasaa-ay raah. The swan of the soul takes flight, and asks which way to go. ਆਇਆ ਗਇਆ ਮੁਇਆ ਨਾਉ ॥ आइआ गइआ मुइआ नाउ ॥ aa-i-aa ga-i-aa mu-i-aa naa-o. He came and he went, and now, even his name has died. ਪਿਛੈ ਪਤਲਿ ਸਦਿਹੁ ਕਾਵ ॥ पिछै पतलि सदिहु काव ॥ pichhai patal sadihu kaav. After he left, food was offered on leaves, and the birds were called to come and eat. ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ नानक मनमुखि अंधु पिआरु ॥ naanak manmukh anDh pi-aar. O Nanak, the self-willed manmukhs love the darkness. ਬਾਝੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਡੁਬਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ बाझु गुरू डुबा संसारु ॥२॥ baajh guroo dubaa sansaar. ||2|| Without the Guru, the world is drowning. ||2||

Pyare veer Chinderpal Singh Ji, I think I know what you mean. What I was saying is that Gurmat Sangeet is exactly that - Gurmat - Guru Ji's mat - hukum, which tells us to follow the hukum of the shabad and perform in the ordained raag. I think what yo are refering to is Indian Classical renditions. Truth is that people who have the sharda to perform in Nirdaareth Raag, will 9/10 times also have the sharda to to appropriate kirtan - Gurmat Kirtan. This means not having long alaaps, singing sur, non use of rahao as core, using the said folk style and ghar (microtone) and partaal if instructed. Raagis who don't follow Guru's shabad raag hukum are usually the ones who are extravagent and bring in either Indian Classical or modern filmi angles into the kirtan. Gurbani kirtan usually has 2 important elements, the raag the folk style, which both should be adhered to, most shabad are inclined towards Drupad rendition, with others more towards folk i.e. Asa/Kaanada raag. The biggest single factor in "Puratan Kirtan Maryada" is Nirdaareth Raag, but this became unpopular with the rise of media, radio, cinema, microphones, baja (1 week course and you are a kirtani, as opposed to the effort and commitment needed for tanti saaj and raag) and of course as you say, Indian Classical Music. Many people confuse Indian Classical with Puratan Kirtan, they couldn't be more wrong. Indian classical has had just as much devastating impact on kirtan as filmi music. In fact Indian classical trained raagis are the ones who having learnt so many other raags (outside of Bani), don't stick to Nirdaareth. The last truely puratan Gurmat Sangeet raagis in my opinion were Baba Shaam Singh Ji (Aden Shaahi) and Baba Harnaam Singh Ji. Most modern day legends of today including Bhai Balbir Singh Ji and Bhai Avtaar Singh Ji, although have done immeasurable service and sung many shabad in Nirdaareth Raag, have also sung many in non-hukmi raag, maybe due to financial or social pressure. Dr Gurnaam Singh Ji I believe does sing mostly in hukmi raag. The biggest change happened between the 1920's and 1960's with many famous Sikh personalities who did huge and great seva of the panth, didn't on the other hand adhere to hukmi raag, which may be due to the amount of time that they spent doing seva etc, fair enough, but many "raagi" who lived for kirtan, started mixing raags and bringing in other influences to kirtan also, many great raagis like Bhai Santa Singh Ji, who's voice and sur command was really mind blowing, devotion was deep, but kirtan maryada became flexible... It's a really huge topic, which also goes back to Ranjit Singh's (Maharaja) secular and cultural influence, Mughal influence, influence when Mahant were in charge of Gur Ghar, and of course the great British influence. Sorry, I think I may have gone off the topic somewhat! Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni.