amardeep

Okay i'll scan when im home tonight.

Pandit Tara Singh Narotam also wrote extensive commentaries on large sections of the Guru Granth Sahib in the 1880s. He was the teacher of Giani Gian Singh. I've heard they are quite deep, though I havent been able to understand the cryptic language in the few short parts i've read so far.

@Singh123456777 Sikhawareness is not a gossip portal about peoples personal life. Thats why it was removed ji.
@Ragmaala Hosting of the website is funded by Neo Singh who've been the webmaster since the forum was launched some 13 years ago. The moderators are based in Europe and America. If its under the watch of intelligence services we would'n know of it unless the intelligence services are really amateur and lame :p

I can see that you eat veggie meat as part of your diet- do you even feel a difference then from before? Does'nt it taste the same and contain same nutrition etc?
Its very interesting to hear about your loss in anger and aggresiveness. Regarding sattvic diet etc read the Bhagavad Gita, - In one of the last chapters Krishna talks about it in terms of meditation, warfare etc.

No dal Please continue writing. I think many of us are reading without writing anything themselves.
I started weight training since january 1 cause i need to lose weight asap! I just ordered whey protein after all you guys recommened it lol.

Chatanga ji: We know very little about about Mata Sahib Deva and Mata Sundari if we think about the role they had in the early 18th century Khalsa. Compare this to the Shia notion of Fatima and the catcholic notion of Mary who have central roles in their respective faiths. Whether they administrered Amrit - we dont know really know as very little is published about their life.
The Anandpur birh of Dasam Granth from 1696 has a short poem by Kavi Mangal wherein he asks for Mata Sundari's blessings and some financial assistance for his sons upcoming wedding. The fact that a leading poet of the Guru assembly is asking her for finances might indicate that she was in charge of the finanses of Anandpur (of which Muslim sources from 1720s claim was in quite abundance!)... Much information is given in Suraj Prakash Granth but very little has been translated into Punjabi and even less in English. I bought a book in Amritsar about the Matajis which seems to collect all the references to Matajis from different 18th-19th century sources..I plan to translate it into English  and publish it online at some point.....
Challo, if there are no more questions we should probably just lock this topic.

In the examples we've discussed in this topic I think you've been right all along by looking into the wider context of the shabads.
Where I disagree with you however is your extreme focus on 'feminism' which blinds you to such a degree that you are actually willing to reject scripture of Sikhi for the sake of moulding Sikhi to fit into your modernist way of thinking.
In terms of how to reconcile secondary litterature of Sikhi with SIkhism - Kavi Santokh Singh said to apply the foundations of Sikhi (as given in Guru Granth Sahib) when reading texts such as janam-sakhis wherein there is also content that is untrue. This can also apply to the rehitname and other secondary Sikh writings. Kavi Santokh Singh said not to reject the writing, but instead to use discriminitive intelligence to get rid of the interpolations.

Chatanga ji: We know very little about about Mata Sahib Deva and Mata Sundari if we think about the role they had in the early 18th century Khalsa. Compare this to the Shia notion of Fatima and the catcholic notion of Mary who have central roles in their respective faiths. Whether they administrered Amrit - we dont know really know as very little is published about their life.
The Anandpur birh of Dasam Granth from 1696 has a short poem by Kavi Mangal wherein he asks for Mata Sundari's blessings and some financial assistance for his sons upcoming wedding. The fact that a leading poet of the Guru assembly is asking her for finances might indicate that she was in charge of the finanses of Anandpur (of which Muslim sources from 1720s claim was in quite abundance!)... Much information is given in Suraj Prakash Granth but very little has been translated into Punjabi and even less in English. I bought a book in Amritsar about the Matajis which seems to collect all the references to Matajis from different 18th-19th century sources..I plan to translate it into English  and publish it online at some point.....
Challo, if there are no more questions we should probably just lock this topic.

@Singh123456777 Sikhawareness is not a gossip portal about peoples personal life. Thats why it was removed ji.
@Ragmaala Hosting of the website is funded by Neo Singh who've been the webmaster since the forum was launched some 13 years ago. The moderators are based in Europe and America. If its under the watch of intelligence services we would'n know of it unless the intelligence services are really amateur and lame :p

Hopefully the answers will have an effect.

@Singh123456777 Sikhawareness is not a gossip portal about peoples personal life. Thats why it was removed ji.
@Ragmaala Hosting of the website is funded by Neo Singh who've been the webmaster since the forum was launched some 13 years ago. The moderators are based in Europe and America. If its under the watch of intelligence services we would'n know of it unless the intelligence services are really amateur and lame :p

Oh God what are we gonna do about you Pappiman? lol

Can we make this about Sikhi and Sikhism instead of discussing why such and such say certain things. I dont know why people say certain things, - you have to ask them directly... How would I know if all male Sikhs think females with turbans look like trannies? 
 
Btw regarding the Patti parmeshwar question from the other day and how you said it was opressive and represented un-equality I just remembered that the Prem Sumarag Granth says women are to have the name Devi as their last name. Devi means goddess. Is it opressive that women are raised to levels of divinity through their name while we men are only raised to levels of lions?? I think not...  It appears that there is a culture in India of ascribing divinity to the two genders though it happens in different ways.
 

Cheers for setting up this topic.
Okay you are basically pushing arguments back and forth and then you throw in counter-arguments to hypothetical arguments that havent been made yet, - to the extent that it looks like you are having a discussion with yourself.
What is the point you're trying to make ? That Sikhi discriminates against women? Or that Damdami Taksal discriminates against women? or that the Damdami Taksal Rahit Maryada does'nt actually discriminate against women, but only the members of Damdami Taksal discriminates against women because they misread their own text? Im not quite sure what is the point you're trying to make.

Interestong.  So two sons had names with origin in the Islamic world while two sons had names with origins to the Sanskrit world.

I dont know why women are'nt allowed to do certain types of seva at Sri Harimandir Sahib. But there is no prohibition on it in Sikhi.
The below 19th century painting shows women performing kirtan at Patna Sahib during the birth of Guru Gobind Singh.
 
In the Pracheen Pant Prakash of 1840s (pre-colonial) the author Rattan Singh Bhangu writes that Jassa Singh Ahluwalia (passed away in 1780) was taught kirtan and stringed instruments by his mother and he used to accompany her when she travelled around performing kirtan in the warrior sangats and gurdware of Punjab. And his account also mention that they went to Amritsar and performed there. So I dont know when this tradition of banning women started - but it would'n surprise me if it was introduced during British rule.
Its not true that women are not allowed to accompany men doing kirtan. See this pic from the 1970s.

 
 

Cheers for setting up this topic.
Okay you are basically pushing arguments back and forth and then you throw in counter-arguments to hypothetical arguments that havent been made yet, - to the extent that it looks like you are having a discussion with yourself.
What is the point you're trying to make ? That Sikhi discriminates against women? Or that Damdami Taksal discriminates against women? or that the Damdami Taksal Rahit Maryada does'nt actually discriminate against women, but only the members of Damdami Taksal discriminates against women because they misread their own text? Im not quite sure what is the point you're trying to make.

the first shabad is from the Asa di vaar composition. Apart from its poetic and musical beauty the bani is heavily known for its attacks on Brahmin rituals ranging from concepts of pure, impure, idol worship, caste system, views on women etc. It is also from this bani that the famous "So why call her bad?" lines comes from.. One has to know Brahmin law in order to truly understand the bani, - but in essence: The bani takes something from the Hindu Brahmin tradition and subverts it. (Just like Jesus did in his mountain speech: They say if you cheat you go to hell but I say if you even look at a woman with a lustfull eye you have sinned) etc..Under Hindu (and Muslim law) blood is considered impure, so one has to do a ritual washing if one has been touched by blood and hence considered impure.. Guru Nanak - echoing the philosophy of the Japji- then takes the notion of impurity to a higher level saying how can one get rid of impurity by merely washing the body? Impurity is related to the soul, not to the body. It's an attack on the notion of pure/impure.
The next shabad has to be read in the same light. If blood stained clothes is something you get rid off, then why do you associate with people whose hands are stained with other peoples blood?
In this regard, I agree with your interpretations. Hari Singh Randhawa is wrong in this regard if he used those shabads to justify discrimination. No wonder the Bibia fought back ;)
 
I think the Bhai Chaupa Singh Rahitnama does have a line that says females should'n read from the Guru Granth Sahib while on their period.. It must likely have to do with what you wrote above - that back in the day the females did not have acces to hygiene products hence it was better to avoid stains of blood touching the tabiya. There is a high sanctity around the Guru Granth Sahib to the effect that many old traditions say you have to bathe fully before reading from the Guru Granth Sahib and many readers even cover their mouth to avoid spit from falling on to the letters etc.In this light it is natural that issues of blood (whether from an injury or menustration) should be considered best to avoid to prevent blood from touching the tabiya.  I see it as a practical prohibition to maintain the sanctity of the area around Guru Granth Sahib.. In this day and age with modern hygiene products it does'nt apply any longer.
 

Yeah. People who become Sikhs aren't expected to take up Punjabi culture. And women who wishes to follow the patti parmeshwar notion are NOT subordinate, lower status nor blindly obedient! They do it as an act of love just like some men spend 100.000 pounds on gifts to their wives.. Its an act of love though for most people it would look outright stupid to spend that much money on gifts.. You need to train yourself into stop thinking that showing acts of love all of a sudden positions you either as high or low. A woman can easily see the divine in her husband and still be his equal....
Next question. Shoot.

When I looked at the Gurmukhi of the first shabad and saw the context I assumed it was translated wrong. The context talks about satee wives, and the shabad then appears to say that those women who see God as their husband - they are the true satees. Its not that women are to see their husband as God.. They are to see God as their true eternal husband, - hence don’t kill yourself in the fire ... So textually I agree with what you write next regarding your own interpretation of that shabad.
I have'nt read all Sikh scriptures or writings but I dont recall having come across anywhere that states women are to see their husbands as God. the Prem Sumarag has a line that goes something like this: "What is a woman without her man? And what is a man without his woman?"
What that said,- the patti parmeshwar concept is highly widespread in large parts of India but it is not considered as a hierarchy with the woman at the bottom and man op top who she looks upto. This is you outlining it like that. In reality it is to be seen as a somewhat romantic gesture that creates a loving social bond between the man and woman. This might be difficult for a non-Indian to understand. In the same way in some African cultures there is a tradition of women being voluntary whipped to show their love to their husbands. When Europeans tried to stop this norm due to the barbarity of women being whipped, - it was actually the women who objected to it ! For them it was a sign of their love. We non-Africans can condemn it and call it derogatory and oppressing because why aren’t the men being whipped as a gesture of showing love to their wives? But for the women, it was part of their culture and they did’n consider it derogatory…Etc etc.. Point is, some things looks weird as an outsider. Many western traditions are always weird to look at from an outsider. Why do grown men go into nature, chop a tree, take it home and into their living room, then decorate it and sing songs while they dance around it holding hands? Sounds like hill billy tradition right? No – it is part of a social cohesion amongst family members. It builds bonds between family members to celebrate Christmas like that…
But in terms of Sikhi ,- no I don’t think this Patti Parmeshwar tradition is part of the religion.. .Same way Lohri is not part of the religion yet observed by many… I don’t think Afghan Sikhs have a tradition of Patti Parmeshwar either since its not part of their culture.
Next question?

As far as I know of, - no there is nothing to suggest that women can't be panj pyare. The reason some groups are against is is due to there not being a tradition of it occouring. Historically in the 18th and 19thcentury it was the Nihangs for the most part who administered Amrit as there was a heavily martial and militant spirit to becoming a khalsa. A large majority of the panj pyare then were men and hence a tradition developed that mostly men possesed the role of being panj pyare. Not unlike in Europe today where there is a long tradition of men being CEO's, -its not because women are not allowed but its become habbit so to say. Which is changing these years.
So no, - I dont think there is anything in writing that prohibits women from being panj pyare. So you can't use this example to argue that Sikhi degrades women. Write a short comment to what i've written and come with your next question.

To add to the above. There are some traditions in Sikhi which have become a norm over time, to the extent that people think it is rules that can't be disobeyed. One example is females being panj pyare,  due to the norm that it has historically been men who administered Amrit due to its military significance.

 

As far as I know of, - no there is nothing to suggest that women can't be panj pyare. The reason some groups are against is is due to there not being a tradition of it occouring. Historically in the 18th and 19thcentury it was the Nihangs for the most part who administered Amrit as there was a heavily martial and militant spirit to becoming a khalsa. A large majority of the panj pyare then were men and hence a tradition developed that mostly men possesed the role of being panj pyare. Not unlike in Europe today where there is a long tradition of men being CEO's, -its not because women are not allowed but its become habbit so to say. Which is changing these years.
So no, - I dont think there is anything in writing that prohibits women from being panj pyare. So you can't use this example to argue that Sikhi degrades women. Write a short comment to what i've written and come with your next question.

Cheers for setting up this topic.
Okay you are basically pushing arguments back and forth and then you throw in counter-arguments to hypothetical arguments that havent been made yet, - to the extent that it looks like you are having a discussion with yourself.
What is the point you're trying to make ? That Sikhi discriminates against women? Or that Damdami Taksal discriminates against women? or that the Damdami Taksal Rahit Maryada does'nt actually discriminate against women, but only the members of Damdami Taksal discriminates against women because they misread their own text? Im not quite sure what is the point you're trying to make.

I think you are living in your own little world. People have told you over and over again not to put things in their mouths. You connect things that are not connected and then use that as an argument against people. I think its called a straw man in english. You build up a narrative in your own head and then argue with people about why they feel a certain way. But they actually dont feel that way!
 
When people here have respect for samprdayas it is NOT because of the way they view women.. thats YOUR take on it because you seem to center your life on feminism.. So if I tell you im into the samprdayas, then you will find something you dont agree with and make a fuss and drama about me being into the samprdayas due to this one female statement only!! Its bloody weird man and you need to stop it!  People here respect the samprdayas because they reflect a pre-colonial disposition of Sikhi with a heavy regard on oral tradition...... NOBODY HAS MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT WOMEN!! yet you keep hammering on and on and on about them....The puratan samprdayas dont even follow the old rahitname, - they have their own oral traditions which they follow.
Like I said, - you dont understand what people are writing, nor do they understand what you are writing.. bloody kinder garden man!! When people showed you the tuks of Sri Guru Amar Das on women, they did'n mean to say that The Satguru talks ill of women.. They were saying "if you use this kind of arguments against Sri Dasam Granth then why dont you apply the same logic to the Guru Granth Sahib".. Its a way of showing how illogical you are.. Yet you read it as the guys saying Guru Amar Das looked down on women...
And now you're making connections between Rahitanme and Dasam Granth....SERIOSLY??? wtf???? The rehitname for the most part are 2-3 pages long... The Dasam Granth is 1300+ pages long... Stop making weird analogies... I dont know if you have some sort of OCD or something but if you do, please let us know... This is getting really tiring.. Everyone here is tired of having to explain themselves over and over again as well as having to defend themselves of weird allegations you keep making, -putting words in their mouths etc....
 
Pappiman says weird shit at times, - all of us laugh at it from time to time and consider those views as representing only himself.. Yet you take it and blow it out of proportions and make it sound like pappiman is the sole global ambassador of SIkhi - everything he says is true and law!
Give it a rest man..