das

To Neo: It was mentioned that the creation of this thread won't lead anywhere and nothing would be gained expect "Everyone sticking to their arguments". Now see what's going on. To Sher: To quote gandhi "Eye for an eye would make the whole world blind. Powerful logic...." does NOT make any sense. Could you please answer the following question, and please do NOT post counter question, be fair......and before answering the question, forget that you are Hindu or Nanak follower and I'm a Sikh etc.; both of us let's remove the colored glasses that we use to see the world. Have you ever seen a real incident during 1984 where normal people like us (you and me) were tied to police jeeps one leg to one jeep and another leg to another jeep; and then guess what both the jeeps moved in opposite direction until the person is torn in 2 pieces. There was almost NO young boys in the villages during those times because whosoever is present was either killed by police or the khalistanis would would kind of force them to join them). Should such incidents be tolerated with gandhi's logic? Have you ever seen a girls/women being insulated in front of their fathers/sons/husbands during those times? What would have been the fate of India when Mughals were converting everyone forcefully to their religion and we (normal people) followed the gandhi's logic? Now, at the same time, the route chosen by some persons to revenge the killing of innocents persons by killing other innocent person does NOT make any sense either. One should ONLY raise against the oppressor and should NOT involve other innocent lives. I personally believe the original starters of wave of opposing oppressors were genuine but immediately they were highjacked by emotionals and other katarpanthis which lead to the bitter end. I personally do NOT favor neither hardcore khalistanis (who just spread hatred towards fellow religions) nor hardcore deniers (who blaim everything was the fault of the persons raising against the oppressors). das

The following is a discourse done by Sant Baba Ishar Singh Ji in 1961. Baba Waryam Singh Jee had had it translated into english and published in the book discourses of the beyond 2. This is a very rare piece of knowledge that is kept to themselves those that know it. Discourse Sant Maharaj (Sri 108 Sant Ishar Singh Ji Maharaj, Rare Wale) used to give audiences in Chandigarh in May 1961. Today being a holiday, a large numbers of seekers and also lovers of other religions had collected there. One of the enthusiasts asked me to request Sant Maharaj to give a detailed description of inner circles (chakkars), which the congregation wanted to hear. Accordingly to the great saint was requested to accede to their request. On that day, a lot of seekers were present, also many great souls (mahatmas), including many Hindu Mahatmas also were in attendance. Many Saints talk of Kundalini: also there is mention of the piercing of inner chakkars. There are different theories about them. Sant Ji was requested to throw light in connection with these ?circles?. ANSWER: - On hearing this petition of people, Sant Ji Maharaj said that according to the philosophy of the Gurus, breaking of these chakkars is not necessary at all. Guru Nanak?s religion is very convenient and simple. It can be called the path of ?Surat Sabad Marg? (The way of contemplation on Sabad, the holy word, sound) or the path of naam (Gods name). Even a person of the lowest intellect, if he has full faith, can walk on this path, by taking prayers and the recitation of the holy name and texts can cross this ocean of the world; whereas it is beyond the capacity of the common people in this iron age (Kalyug), to negotiate this tough path (of bursting the chakkars). The reason is that in the Iron Age, people?s conduct, behaviour and diet have become low class. The body has not the strength, which is needed for bursting those chakkars, nor is there such a favourable atmosphere, where one can sit and practice such penances constantly. If a thousand seekers try practicing these austerities, the heat produced by pranayam (breathing exercises) will drive 999 out of them mad. That condition would be beyond cure, even by the doctors. In olden ages the body used to be strong and stout. Celibacy was practiced fully; and the body had the latent strength to endure these very tough penances. In today?s age, there is the forceful churning of the thoughts, and the bonfire of desires renders a man slave to desire for wealth and property. In such an atmosphere man?s inner consciousness is unable to think of anything other then Maya (false pleasures of the world). For this reason, Guru Nanak, the emperor of the universe, keeping in view the foul atmosphere of the world, popularised such methods, as are simple and comfortable, in short, he put the seeker on the path of detachment while working in the world with devotion as a chief way, and knowledge of the fundamentals. To help that programme, he popularised such practices as doing one?s duty, sharing what you have with others and repeating the name of God and bathing in sacred spots. On this path all can walk, educated or uneducated, the rich or poor. Your question is about hathyog (practices of body torture), so make a detailed study of these. In bygone times, these used to be the practices in places of solitude and caves far from the madding crowds. The chief items of that school are Dhoti, Neti, Basti, Tratak, Neoli, and Kapalbhati, which are explained below. Dhoti: - Take a long bandage of fine cloth, 4 fingers broad and 22.5 foot. Dip in luke warm water and practice inserting it inside your mouth, at the rate of 1.5 foot per day. The whole cloth will be pushed inside your body in 15 days. Then holding the outer end of the cloth firmly in your teeth, try to take out the whole cloth bit by bit. This would clean up the regions of one?s liver and the intestines. Neti: - Take a strong cotton thread very fine and soft, as long as the stretched human hand. Push it inside through the nose, by holding the breath and pushing it through the power of breath. Take it out of the mouth as if you are churning the curds. In this way, the impurities of the nose and the throat can be cleaned. Basti: - Sit in a water tub, dipping yourself up to the navel. Take a bamboo tube 6 fingers long and one finger thick. Insert it through the anus and by the force of breath push it inside and also pull in water. This is doing enema in water. Tratak: - Focus your eyes without winking on any object concentrating your attention on it till that time, when the eyes through sheer fatigue begin to water. This exercise could destroy all diseases of the eyes. It can break the evil tendencies towards too much sleep and laziness. Just as a very precious article is kept with great care, similarly know that the centre for the exercise is the nostrils or the middle place of the two eyebrows. Neoli: - Sit, keeping down both the shoulders, straighten your back, and keep your backbone erect at 90 degrees. With the power of breath, move the stomach (belly) right and left, up and down, as if you are churning the curd. Kapalbhati: - one has to do Pranayam (breathing exercises) in three scategoryes drawing in breath, holding in, and releasing the breath (rechak) again and again; like the blacksmith?s bellows that keep a fire burning bright. Pranayam: - Controlling the movement of breathing is called Pranayam. According to specialists, there are in the human body 72 crore 72 lakh, 10 thousand and 201 nerves and ducts. Ten out of them are helpful in the breathing exercises. There are many methods of Pranayam, which are very difficult. But the two types are more prevalent, moon ? limbed and sun ? limbed. There are three chief nadis (nerve or ducts) in our bodies They are Ida to the left of the nose; Pingala to the right and the one between the two is called Sukhmana. First by the way of Ida, repeat Gurmantar 16 times, while slowly drawing in the breath (its called poork) then holding breath while repeating Gurmantar 64 times (it is called kambak) and then slowly releasing the breath, while repeating Gurmantar for 32 times (this is called rechak). Sukhman Nadi runs from Mooladhar (lowest spot near the naval) up to the tenth gate (crown of the head). Inside this Sukhmana, there is in a fine form Kundalini Nadi, which has the sheen and power brings perfect peace of mind. It can destroy all sins and ignorance?s. Another nerve called Bhujang Nadi has shut the opening of the Sukhmana Nadi. When the seeker practices Pranayam by its force, Bhujang Nadi gets a little away from the mouth of the Sukhmana Nadi. With the power of the Pranayam, these chakkars (circles) are broken one by one and by living force the life breath, prana enters the tenth gate. Making a reference to this, Guru Maharaj has ordained thus ? One may recite by heart the wisdom of the six schools of philosophy. He may perform worship; bear the frontal mark and bath in shrines. He may practice inner washing of feat and adopt eighty-four postures of the yogis. But in these he shall find no peace. Page 98 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Making the still of the circuitous chord, whosoever practices the inly washing, inhalation, exhalation and suspension of breath. Without the true Guru, he obtains not right understanding and straying in doubt, he is drowned to death. The blind one is soiled, yea, so soiled and defiled, that whosoever he washes himself, his minds filth departs not ever. Without the name, vain are all deeds, like those of the conjurer, who deceives men through illusion. Page 1343 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Thou keepest fasts, sayest vesper prayers, purifiest thyself and doest good deeds. Thou goest on pilgrimages in all directions and eatest not anything. Touching no one, thou cookest thy food. Thou makest a great display of thy inly-washings. Thou burnest incense and lamps in the temples. All these equal not God?s name. Page 1229 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji The gate of the Sukhmana is opened with a very great difficulty by means of a Pranayam. For Pranayam, there is the exercise of Kapalbhati. By massaging the tongue, they make it so thin and long that it can come out and touch the forehead. Then making it turn upside down, it is made to enter the ear and with its tip, it closes the hole, which is above the palate. This step dissipates the great heat created by the Pranayam (which otherwise makes the man either mad or dead). According to ascetics, to the left of the frown spot, the moon rains Amrit (nectar). The nectar is tasted by the tongue. This liquid (Amrit) is also called Amar Varani (immortal drink). Now I will briefly explain to you about the six chakkars in the body. Those who want to take notes may take them down. 1. Mooldhar Chakkar (Pelvic Plexus) This is the chakkars in the region of the anus. This contains an inverted yellow lotus with four petals. The four petals are its 3 corners in the shape of the letters (va, sa, kha, sha). This is the centre for the desire for knowledge. Above where Kundalini Nadi is situated, is the thrones of sex, where are born the ideas of woman, swan, and mind. At this place, the yogis meditate on God Ganesh. 2. Swadishthan Chakkar (Hypogastric Plexus) It lies at the root of the male organ and it contains an upward positioned lotus with 6 petals. Its 6 petals are symbolised by the letters (ba, bha, ma, ya, ra, la). At this position, the ascetics meditate on God Brahma (Creator). 3. Mani Poorak Chakkar (Epigastric Plexus or Solar Plexus) It is located in the region of the navel. It has an inverted lotus of blue colour having 10 petals. Its 10 petals are in the shape of letters (da, dha, na, ta, tha, da, dha, na, pa, pha). In this position the ascetics think of God Vishnu. 4. Anahat Chakkar (Cardiac Plexus) It is a golden coloured lotus with 12 petals located in the heart. Its 12 petals and the 12 letters (ka, kha, ga, gha, na (as in long) cha, chha, ja, jha, na, ta, tha). Here the yogis mediate upon Rudra (Shiva) along with his mountain abode (Kailash Parbat). 5. Vishudda Chakkar (Carotid Plexus) Here is smoke coloured upward looking lotus with 16 petals, which is situated in the throat. Its 16 petals stand for 16th letters namely (a, aa, I, ee, u, uoo, ri, ree, lri, lree, a, aie, o, ou, ang, aan (n as in long). It is called jalandhar throne. Here one meditates on the self. 6. Aagiya Chakkar (Medular Plexus) It is located at the root of the two eyes and the nose. Here is situated an inverted lotus with 2 petals, white like the moon. Its two letters are (khya and gya). It is called the Udiyang throne. Here the yogis meditate upon God himself, the giver of salvation. Phal (fruit or result). Whatever fruit (gain) is achieved by the meditation of the various above-mentioned chakkars, can be obtained by the meditation of this single Chakkar. Hence the great souls lay emphasis on concentrating one?s mind on this Chakkar, named Agya Chakkar. When living force and mind are stabilized at this place, it has the potentiality of being able to practise Samparigyat Samadhi (Transcendental Meditation). At this point meet the three nadis; named Ida, Pingala and Sukhmana, the start from Mooldhar Chakkar come by different routes. Hence the confluence of the three nadis is called the Triveni. (At Triveni at Prayag or Allahabad, meet the three rivers, Ganga, Yamna and the underground Saraswati). Ida is the Ganga, Pingala is Yamna and Sukhmana is the river Saraswati of the Triveni This place (Triveni) has been designated the king of all pilgrimages; it is also called Atam Teerth (place of the pilgrimage or the self or the bath at the sacred tank of Amritsar). By bathing the mind at the confluence, all sins are destroyed. Guru Maharaj has ordained thus- Then alone is one known as true, when he abides in the pilgrimage station of his heart. He takes instruction from the Guru and sits and abodes according to his will. Ang 468 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji This Agya Chakkar is also called the universal heart or the heart of all. It is the same spot, which is mentioned in connection with heart of the holy name. One with the gross intellect is called the (fleshy) heart. This is the first step of the opening of the divine eye. It is called the organ of clairvoyance, or the instrument of the divine sight. It is the spot of Third Til (mole). It is also called the point of saveeda. Above the Aagiya Chakkar is the place of mid forehead. This spot has been variously called the Guru Chakkar, Manas (mental) Chakkar, Forehead Chakkar but all these are included in the seven Chakkars. Above it is the thousand-petal lotus, called the tenth gate. From the region of the mid forehead, the physical body finishes. Above it begins the universal self. The crown of the head and the blank Chakkar are its symbolic gross form (cerebral plexus). Above the palate in the forehead is the divine hole. This is the centre of all the powers. With its sheen of multi coloured lights is the lotus with myriads of petals. On these petals are the alphabets from (a) to (kha) with all the sounds and letters. At this place, the yogis through the power of yoga become omniscient, having knowledge of all lores and learning?s, and having got that gyan (true knowledge) they are able to know all the languages, dialects, also all the past, present, and future events. At that place is the residence of God almighty, with all his powers. At this category, the mind being stable, one's all tendencies are effectively controlled and one develops the capability of Asampragyat Samadhi (highest form of contemplation of God). Many scholars are of the opinion that this is the living place of the divine. Who is thumb dimential. This also is the seat of the sky, on the scale of a thumb. Here one obtains the realisation of the self, and it is the place of the supreme divine. When the living force and mind become stable, at this very place, one gets the ability for Nirvikalp Samadhi (the supreme meditation); and all tendencies are totally controlled. At this place, the light of the soul falls on the intellect. The intellect of consciousness is casual body and because of its relationship with Supreme Self, it is known as Jiva Ataman. The casual body is incorporated in subtle body and the subtle body is part of the physical body. Thus the soul is spread all over the body, and by bursting its working self, one can point to all the spots. In short, in a very fine spiritual condition, the place of the soul is said to be the region of the heart because the heart is the chief limb of the body. The entire activities of the body are directed from the heart region. From here all nerves (or ducts) are branching to all parts of the body When the physical heart stops beating, all activities come to an end. Therefore in the godly state, the seat of the soul can be said to be the heart. In the dream state, the place of the soul is said to be the throat. In the walking state, whatever object one sees, whatever object one hears and whatever enjoyments one tastes have the epi centre in the Nadi named Hita, which is as fine as the thousandth part of the hair. Hence the knowledge of the experienced things is in the throat, in the dream state. During the waking state, the soul with the help of the sense organs is spread all outside. As Guru Maharaj has pointed out in Gurbani ? The bride who goes amiss by seeing the body of nine apertures, obtains not the peerless thing of God?s name. Ang 339 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji It is the soul, which sees through the eyes. During the meditation, the place of the soul is said to be Agya Chakkar. This is also the place of divine vision. Here it obtains the divine eye. During the Asampragyat Samadhi (meditation) the soul stays in the divine hole; because from this centre, the control of all tendencies is possible. Kundalini Shakti ? All the powers that exist tin the universe have been collected by Waheguru in this part of the body. But the main triangle of Sukhmana Nadi, rising from the backbone, is spread upwards. In the normal state it remains closed (sleeping). Hence its power remains secret and unknown. Therefore its power combined with the power of life?s airs and joined with the Ida and Pingala, by the way of the left and right and bursting the various Chakkars is spread upward. It keeps on flowing all over the body. In this three cornered region, this Nadi, extremely fine like the electric power lies coiled around. We can give the example of such a she serpent, which is sleeping, coiled three and half times and pressing its tail in its mouth. This is called the power of the Kundalini. This remains sleeping, unless awakened by special exercise. None of the functions can be visible to the eye of flesh. For this reason, the physiologists have not been able to discover anything about it. But in olden times, learned men of countries like Greece and Rome, such as Plato and Pythagoras, who were seers of self, have made references to all these in their writings. They state that under the navel, there is such a wondrous power, which by lighting up one?s intellect, makes manifest such divine powers within man. If by any exercise, this Kundalini Nadi unwinds it coils and gets inside the Sukhmana Nadi, then it is said to have come awake. Just as in the house, if you press the electricity buttons all the bulbs, fans, fridges, etc start functioning, similarly if you press the switch of the Kundalini Nadi the electric current carried by the Sukhmana wire travels all over the body and lights all the Chakkars and all the Nadis (nerves or ducts). Wherever the Kundalini power reaches in the body all the lotuses become straight and the mind is stabilized. As Guru Maharaj has ordained ? Turning away from the world, the heart lotus filled with Nectar and this mind, then goes not anywhere. Merging in the primal lord, man forgets not the mental meditation. By the Guru?s grace, all the organs are blessed with five virtues and man abides in his own home. Nanak is the slave of him, who by searching the Lord?s name obtains this home of his. Ang 1291 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji When the current reaches the Agya Chakkar, it also touches sampragyat and the tenth gate (crown of the head). Then all human tendencies come under complete control and one develops real capability for Asampragyat Samadhi (transcendental meditation). In this condition the seeker attains the knowledge of the whole world very quickly. When Kundalini power enters the mouth of Sukhmana Nadi one begins to have supernatural experiences. Making show of them is forbidden. There is reference to that ? Indulge thou not in ego and abide within thyself. The knower himself knows everything Ang 580 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji With so much talk, the time of the meeting was almost over. Sant Maharaj said that above that is the blank place in the universe, and there the universes end. The seeker who has crossed all the illusions, reaches the region of Truth (heaven) by the power of repeating God?s name and experiences ecstasy by observing the phenomenon of the infinite. Above that is experienced the miracle of ?being full of bliss, in the shower of the grace of God? as says Satguru Nanak. The almighty God attracts to himself man?s soul, which was separated from him and merges the individual self in the universal self. As is ordained ? As water comes and gets blended with water, so does his lights blend with the supreme light. His coming and going end and he attains rest. Nanak is ever devoted unto the lord. Ang 278 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji For this reason Guru Maharaj has clarified ? What are they like, who forget not the name? They are like the lord. Know that there is absolutely no difference between the two. Ang 397 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji That between the saints and the infinite lord, there is no difference. Ang 486 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji The same is ordained in the Sukhmani Sahib ? The great god, Shiva, searches for the man, who knows god. Nanak the Braham gyani, is himself the exalted lord. Ang 273 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji A saint who reaches this state is called Brahmgyani (one who knows God), and gets the title of the Khalsa. But the foolish persons, badly lost in the darkness of ignorance, do not accept the fundamental philosophy of the Guru, get the title of Manmukh (the ignorant) mind orientated. Like the crows, they crow together and spoil the path of truth. Sceptical to the fundamentals taught in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and having turned their face away from the Guru, they fall a prey to spiritual quacks and do not achieve any good state. They cannot be rid of the cycle of births and deaths. Spiritual ideas are the only true ideas. By accepting them, in the light of Gurbani (Holy writ), is the only path to one's real welfare. Dear loving devotees, you may be connected with different faiths and communities and though you may have heard the sermons of many great persons, but so long as you do not pull yourself out of the slush of Dvait (duality or that there is second reality other then God) and do not take to the path of self realisation through the divine word, that long you can't enter the higher strata of universal soul. Till then you will keep wallowing in your present condition ? Because of profane affection, the man suffers agony. Death?s courier is spying all. Nanak, the Guru wards are saved by contemplating over the true name In words we are good, but in deeds bad. Within mind we are impure and black, but white from without. We emulate with those who stand and serve at lord?s door. They are imbued with the love of their bridegroom and enjoy the pleasure of his alliance. They remain powerless even when possessing power and are ever humble. Nanak, our lives become profitable if we associate with them (such brides). Page 85 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Thus the whole congregation showed obeisance to the great saint and dispersed to their respective activities, with a keen desire to hear the discourse of the great saint in the evening also.

chalo bhaji tuhade marje, but first digging a hole in earth where anyone can fall and then creating a wire fence with gate doesn't make any sense. The best option would have been to invite the intellectual persons only on pm if you really wanted to gain something. It's always best to avoid the circumstances where we could acquire more bad karma (even though unintentionally). Baki tuhade marje, everyone has a free-will.

Neo bhaji, you might be comfortable ignoring knee jerk sterotypical statements from both sides, but in general people take it seriously which will lead to more hatred among fellow people. Why and what do you need to understand while seeing the "Cook fighting". Both parties will be hurt but yes you might get some real fact (BUT at the expense of exaggerating the emotions of other hardcores). Amandeep has put it perfectly because when both are already fighting each other every day (see the topics on Sikhawareness for the past 30 days and determine if there was a single thing to learn??), why to put kerosene on fire?

Excellent article; there is a need for all of us to understand the true meaning of Khalsa and as well as Akhe (others). But I must say that the article is written with much sophisticated english (at-least for me) and one needs to have dictionary in hand to really understand the meaning of some words.

I've learned it the hard way but would like to bring to the notice of other fellow people. How to differentiate between the genuine guidance provided by Soul or Guru or other Spiritual-beings (under the guidance of your Guru) VS the false guidance brought by Mind and/or Bad-karmas of ours. Anything coming into our mind (in the shape of intitution) which involves emotions, urged to hurry to act immediately is NOT coming from Soul. Soul goes step-by-step and does check our commitment. If our free-will is compromised, then it is NOT coming from Soul. Any idea from our Soul should arise quietly. e.g If we're trying to find an health instrument to buy and some-where in the back of mind (very faintly) said do NOT get this time. If something says, no you have to buy this for the sake of this and that; then it is NOT coming from Soul. Soul's guidance comes with practice and patience. If we don't have the capacity to buy anything but our so-called institution says go for it; then it is NOT from the Soul. Bottom line is: Anything which involves with emotion, urgency, quickness involves either of the following: Mind's play, or Person's Bad-karma, or Person under entity possession. There are many times when one takes the Non-Soul's guidance to be intuition and suffer. But always remember that anything which seemed to be bad happened to us is Good. Raab da bana mitha manna. e.g suppose we prepare a rice-pudding (kheer) for offering but by mistake a tablespoon falls in kitchen sink or floor, then we might feel bad about that but here remember that to whom we were going to offer the pudding wants us to first feed the insects inside the kitchen drain and/or trash!! HIS ways are always different. On the other hand, if the next time we prepare rice-pudding and intentionally pour a tablespoon in kitchen sink based upon the previous incidence, then it is NOT our Soul.

This portray our knowledge of history as well as current happenings (Isn't our Mind playing games we just go with it???) Even tough I don't have any interest in politics of any country. But I was reading the following article under which the following line exactly explains all the debates related to history that are going on these days within sikhawareness website. "The 2014 elections will allow more than 100 million young voters, or almost a seventh of the electorate, to vote for the first time. To them, the violence of 2002 belongs to the realm of argument and hearsay, not experience. Many are happy to take the avuncular “Modi Mach 2” at face value. And to his credit, he has plenty to say to them about their aspirations." Taken from: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-03-20/indians-expect-highest-office-to-temper-modi?cmpid=yhoo I think the above line (in general and not just for the said topic) exactly portray what we all have been doing in the name of history (which we've never experinced and at the same time which might be baised) Moreover, what to say about the history when we don't even have proper senses to determine the current happenings. Everyone is dependent on someone's else knowledge (which may or may not be correct). Real knowledge comes from within. e.g In the following article, it does list some real facts to ponder upon but who knows if this is right or the main stream media is right. Again, very hard to determine unless either one has the treasure of knowedge from Soul OR has direct experience in executing the plan. http://greatgameindia.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/mh370-mystery-suspicious-cargo-death-of-2-ex-navy-seals-aboard-mv-maersk-alabama/ http://greatgameindia.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/malaysian-airlines-mh370-mystery-hidden-in-plain-sight/

the latest ones are funny. Thanks for sharing.

Excellent said by Maha Singh.

Best of luck bhaji, may God bless you and your family. Raab tuhade sir te hath rakh ke tuhade too path karvave. Let me request you the following that I've learnt personally. I'm NOT suggesting you anything. Just merely stating what have been instructed by many Sants and Mahatamas. Do Mool-mantar till "Nanak Hose Bhe Sach". Try doing 6 malas everyday of 108 beads for One Full Year. It will roughly be 236520. Do NOT miss a day. Nice to have: Would be great if you could do it, otherwise it's okay. If possible, make sure that you do your mala each day on the same time and same place. If possible, use the mala 108 + 1 (Meru bead: It is the quiding bead, the one that marks the beginning and end of the mala.) beads. The following is NOT suggested by Sant (I haven't heard), but based upon the facts that these malas were extensively used in the past and special significance of wool in energy. If possible, use the mala made of white wool.

It happens with every institution: It goes like this: Founders never wanted to create an institution. Their followers or some want-to-be-leader do create institution. After some time, the institution follows the rituals which were never mentioned by the original person. Eventually, that institution looses or changes the original teachings of its teachers. And then people like me would blaim that: This and That institution is bad after seeing the current affairs of their current leaders. And while doing that we also say bad about the original persons whose teachings we've never read or understood. Even tough it doesn't matter but I'm NOT a Radhasoami.

Neo bhaji, I do agree with you in regards to what is mentioned in Baba Ji's diary. As per my understanding there are many ways/techniques (gurmat- bhagti marg-yog, shabad surat marg, gyan-dhian marg etc) to go to Waheguru but all of these techniques are meant to cross the khands/planes. e.g If you want to get the seeds of apple, you may choose to shred the apple, cut the apple from center, cut the apple from top/bottom, cut the apple slice by slice......these are the ways/techniques (like gurmat- bhagti marg-yog, shabad surat marg, gyan-dhian marg) but in any chosen technique you have to go through from outer shell to inner shell. Same way whatever way/technique (gurmat- bhagti marg-yog, shabad surat marg, gyan-dhian marg) we choose, eventually we have to cross all the layers of Material/Pind, Astral/Aand, Causal/Brahmand, Sunnn, and then reach Sachkhand. It's a different story that one can reach sachkhand directly from Pind or from Pind to Sunn or from Astral to Causal etc. Dasam Dwar does represent the inner plane outside of Casual/Brahmund plane where one is beyond the reach of Mind/Maya. Saying that dasam dwar is a technique is not quite right unless you're taking about the Chakra technique. BabaJi did mention that in gurmat one does not have to go through the Chakra techniques as mentioned in Yoga.

N30 bhaji, could you please share the page number of Baba's diary as well as the audio file name/path of BabaJi's Atmik Bachan where he mentioned that one doesn't have to go through dasam-dawar etc. I don't think (based upon the deewans, bachans, and diary of Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib) that he meant that. My understanding is that: The 5 Shabads/Sounds is NOT the destination but still one has to go through them and it is not easily obtained. One has to progress using these sounds; just like we use ladder/lift/crane to climb the roof; once on roof we don't need those modes. But at the same time, we cannot underplay the role of ladder. Everyone has to go to God via dasam dwar but one can choose different paths: Chakras (here Babaji has mentioned that one does not need to go through these chakras), Bhagti etc. I remember reading or hearing in one of the Baba's deewan when he mentioned that when Jathedar (Jathedar Sant Baba Mahinder Singh Ji) heard the sounds of dolke and channe he was scared and come out of the tent to verify if there was anyone playing outside. Also, as per my thinking, some people do mix these "Panj Shabads" with 5 sounds of elements/tattvas. Hearing the sounds of 5 elements might be easier and not worth going after BUT the Panj Shabads are of much greater importance and one HAS to go through these. Just hearing different sounds from right ear does not mean that one is hearing Panj Shabad. Panj Shabad is heard after very high kamai and one. Panj Shabad is heard once anyone crosses the 3 worlds (Pind, Aand, Brahmund) of Kaal/Maya. In other words, these Panj Shabads are heard in fourth state. Panj Shabad is heard once one is free from the 3 qualities of Maya. Tuks showing that hearing "Panj Shabad" is not an easy task and is obtained with Guru's grace. ਪੰਨਾ 1315 ਪੰਚੇ ਸਬਦ ਵਜੇ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਅਨਹਦੁ ਵਜਿਆ ॥ ਆਨਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਗਜਿਆ ॥ Tuks showing it's hard to get ਪੰਨਾ 1350 ਤਤੁ ਤੇਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤੀ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਦੇਹ ਉਜ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰਾ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਾਇ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਜਗਾਇਆ ਬੂਝੈ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ ਪੰਚੇ ਸਬਦ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਜੇ ਸੰਗੇ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥ Tuks showing at what stage it is heard ਪੰਨਾ 765 ਵੀਵਾਹੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੋਭ ਸੇਤੀ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ here marriage is between Soul and God Tuks showing that what comes with the Panj Shabad; If we cannot have all of the following then it means that we still have not heard the Panj Shabad; we might be hearing other sounds (from upper planes) but definately NOT from the Sachkhand. Janam-Maran is destroyed once we're out of 3 worlds, but still there is lot to travel (especially the Sunn area where Panj Shabad is the ONLY divine word which would help us) in order to be in Sachkhand. ਪੰਨਾ 888 ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਤਹ ਪੂਰਨ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਜੇ ਅਚਰਜ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ ॥ ਕੇਲ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਲੋਗ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰਨ ਨਿਰਜੋਗ ॥੧॥ ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਆਨੰਦ ਭਵਨ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤਹ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਨਹੀ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਊਹਾ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ ਬਿਰਲੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਓਹੁ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ ॥ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਆਸਨੁ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਡਿਗਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ਕਤਹੂ ਨ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕੋ ਇਹੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

If anyone has heard anything regarding Panj Shabad from any Sant (any religion) kirpa kar ke share karo ji.

I want to understand the Panj Shabad. Can anyone help please; especially the persons having practical knowledge as well as scholars? das

Sahib bhaji, if your intention is to gain some Spiritual knowledge from the learned ones, then you might find the following list helpful. Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hote Mardan Wale Biography: http://www.ik13.net/PDFS/Pachhami_Parkash.pdf Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji Reru Sahib Wale Biography from: http://www.ik13.net/PDFS/Jiwan_Gatha.pdf Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib Wale Personal Diary: http://www.ik13.net/PDFS/IAL.pdf Transcription of some Deewans: http://www.ik13.net/PDFS/NKU.pdf Audio Deewans, Bachans, and Suleman Pret da Udhar: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F01_Puratan_Katha%2FSant_Ishar_Singh_%28Rara_Sahib_wale%29 Video Deewans: DVDs of some live deewans in England: http://www.ik13.com/audio_video.html Sant Kishan Singh Ji Rara Sahib Bachans: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F01_Puratan_Katha%2FSant_Kishan_Singh_%28Rara_Sahib_wale%29 More Bachans: http://www.ratwarasahib.com/Multimedia/audio/listing.php?q=f&f=%2FKirtan+Deewans%2F01-Sri+Hazoor+Sant+Baba+Kishan+Singh+Ji+Rara+Sahib Jathedar Sant Baba Mahinder Singh Ji Audio Deewans: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F03_Katha_with_Dharna%2FSant_Mohinder_Singh_%28Jarg_wale%29 Selected Video and Audio Deewans: http://www.jargsahib.com/gurbani_view.php?cid=33 More Audio Deewans: http://www.ratwarasahib.com/Multimedia/audio/listing.php?q=f&f=%2FKirtan+Deewans%2F06+Jathedar+Sant+Baba+Mahinder+Singh+Ji+%28Rara+Sahib%29+Jarg+Sahib Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Nanaksar Wale Biography: Set of 5 books: Anand Chamatkar by Bhai Gurmukh Singh Other literature: http://www.nanaksarkaleran.com/books Sampat Path Audio: http://www.nanaksarkaleran.com/sampat-path Sant Baba Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib Books: http://www.ratwarasahib.com/punjabibooks.html More books: “Do Rajay Jogi”, “Nau Rattan” both are based on Sant Isher Singh Ji and Sant Kishen Singh. Search on www.scribd.com Audio Deewans: http://www.ratwarasahib.com/Multimedia/audio/listing.php?q=f&f=%2FKirtan+Deewans%2F02+Sri+Hazoor+Sant+Baba+Waryam+Singh+Ji+Maharaj+Ratwara+Sahib More Audio Deewans: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F03_Katha_with_Dharna%2FSant_Waryam_Singh_%28Ratwara_Sahib_wale%29 Sant Baba Harman Singh Ji Rampur Kehre Wale Autobiography: Se Kinehiya ( http://rampurkhera.com/files/Se_Kinehiya-Pbi.pdf ) Autobiography in Audiobook: http://www.mahapurakh.com/content/sant-harnam-singh-ji-rampur-khera-se-kinehiya-english Other Publications: http://rampurkhera.com/publication Audio Deewans: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F01_Puratan_Katha%2FSant_Harnam_Singh_%28Rampur_Khere_wale%29 Seth Shiv Dayal Singh (known as Soami Ji Maharaj) - www.scienceofthesoul.org The Sar Bachan Prose (Sar Bachan Radha Soami Vartik) Baba Jaimal Singh - www.scienceofthesoul.org Parmarthi Pattar I (Spiritual Letters) Maharaj Sawan Singh - www.scienceofthesoul.org Gurmat Sar (My Submission) Gurmat Sidhant I and II (in english Philosophy of the Masters I to V) Sant Mat Prakash I to V Sant Mat Sidhant Spiritual Gems Baba Kirpal Singh Spiritual Elixir Pythagoreans - www.scribd.com Lore of the Pythagoreans, Mathematics Useful for Understanding Plato Lost Sacred Geometry of the Ancients, Pythagorean Sacred Geometry Mysticism Title Touches of Sweet Harmony, Pythagorean Library, Pythagorean Theurgy Mysticism Number Ontology Plato - www.scribd.com The Timaelus of Plato, Mathematics Useful for Understanding Plato, Plato and the Criticism of Life, Classical Greek Philosophy Plato Aristotle Neoplatonic Pythagorean Vol 1 to 8 Dr. Randolph Stone The Mystic Bible Swami Paramanada Concentration and Meditation Upanishad Translated in 1919 Swami Rama: www.scribd.com The Art of Joyful Living Enlightenment Without God Himalayan Santan Sung Nivas Let The Bud Of Life Bloom (Highly recommended for any present or future parent) Swami Rama Tiratha: www.scribd.com In Woods of God Realization Vol 1 to 10 Walter Russell: www.scribd.com A New Concept Of The Universe The Man Who Tapped the Secrets of the Universe The Message of the Divine Iliad Vol 1 and 2 The Secret of Light The Universal One Home Study Course Unit 1 to 12 Jon Peniel - www.scribd.com The Children of The Law of One & The Lost Teachings of Atlantis

My defination of Brahmgyani is someone like: Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji Reru Sahib Wale, Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hote Mardan Wale, Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib Wale, Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji, Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Nanaksar Wale. N30 bhaji from the list you have mentioned I'm familiar with only: Sant Teja Singh Ji Rara Sahib Wale, Sant Darshan Singh Ji Dhakki Wale, and Sri Anandmurti Guruma and I can definately point that these 3 mentioned are NOT at the level of Brahmgyani (if compared to the list mentioned above by me) even though they are highly advanced Spiritual beings. Again, I'm NOT saying that they are false or something like that; I just want to point out the TRUE meaning of word Brahmgyani. For me; yes certainly there are Brahmgyanis in the present world but at-least I'm not aware of any TOTAL Raab de jot in present times. There are many highly Spiritual persons whom we sometimes wrongly refer to Brahmgyani. But that does not mean that one should not go to these humble Spiritual beings; they are still very highly elevated Spiritually beings but not yet Brahmgyani in terms of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Brahmgyani is The God Himself. Even I'm interested to know the name of 3 persons: First the name of present human being who is the jot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Guru Nanak Dev Ji mentioned that He will come in human birth for 84 times in Kalyug (10 times as Guru and 74 times as Sant/Brahmgyani). It is known that at any time in this world, there is at-least One Karak Mahapurash. Second the name of the present human being who is also the Karak in the Bhagat form. Third the name of the present human being(s) who has/have elevated to the level of Brahmgyani in the present times.

Is there any Panth (differentiation) left once anyone attains Atam Ras? What exactly one attains after Atam Ras? What is the difference between Guru and Raab?

Thanks N30 bhaji. It's really good to have everything in one offline file.

Do the debaters know that history in this world is most prone to distortion?? Just for an example to bring the fact that it is possible: http://www.nhsf.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=345:how-british-distorted-indian-history&catid=239:misconceptions&Itemid=233 Here I'm NOT favoring or opposing any author/writer; I'm just bringing the fact that history is prone to distortion because authors/writers may have prejudice. The best authentic source of history lies within us as we were the history. In other words, the REAL history could only be known by either diving deep into our Soul OR from the talks of TRUE Saints (from any religion) who are aware of the facts of past/present/future. Now regarding the Sikh and Hindu role in start and end of Mughal kingdom. The start as well as the end of Mughal kingdom was determined by the Guru's word (here please do NOT label Him as Sikh Guru only as HE come in Kalyug for the betterment of everyone. It was Guru Nanak Dev Ji who reminded Babur of his brutality on the people and then Babur asked for what he should do. Guru Ji then blessed him with information on how he should rule. He was told that he will have kingdom till he rule within God's Law. The raj of Mughal was brought to an end by the forces chosen by God (be it Sikhs or any other tribe/religion) because the later Mughals kings again started using brutality. Always remember that the 2 parties in the war always think that God is on their side. It's all the play of God. Instead of mentioning all the mughal kings during the 10 Guru's time and their respective association with mughals, I would refer everyone to the following articles: http://www.info-sikh.com/G-EmpPage1.html http://www.info-sikh.com/G-EmpPage2.html http://www.info-sikh.com/G-EmpPage3.html

Sher, may I ask you what you're trying to prove? Sometimes you do have valid points but then you're also carried away in the black and white judgment. To me (which doesn't mean I'm right), you are the same type of person as core Khalistanis are: They are at one-end of the spectrum and you are on the other. Both have flawed theories and understanding and have never gone through practically the things they are debating. Khalistanis as well as You do not understand the meaning of Khalsa and/or Religion. I wonder what this website has become: a place to debate (both Hardcore parties) without the intention of understanding each other. It would be better if we all (including me) just think about the reason for joining this website. I would suggest to start a thread where everyone is invited to post their understanding of Religion.

When Guru Gobind Singh has given Amrit to Panj Payaras, then Panj Puran Khalsas were created by Dhan Dhan Dassam Patshah Ji by giving them all the three Amrits (Sanskar Amrit, Naam Amrit, Gyan Amrit or Atam Ras) at the same time. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji said: Khalsa is my special form I reside within the Khalsa. HE means to the one who attains the Atam Rass (the last Amrit) and NOT just the Sanskar Amrit. The definition of Khalsa as per Guru Gobind Singh Ji is: Atam Ras Jeh Janye So Hi Khals Dev Prabh Meh Moh Meh Taas Meh Ranchak Nahin Bhed. A Khalsa is the one who enjoys the Atam Ras (Gyan Amrit) – spiritual bliss – and who has been elevated to such a level that there is no difference between him, the SatGuru and Akal Purakh. What I've seen these days, especially in Western countries (people born here) treat Sanskar Amrit as Khalsa and they want Khalistan without understanding the definition of Khalsa. And when anyone (like in Video) suggest the right thing, they just come out saying no Khalsa is the one who has taken Sanskar Amrit. As per their ideology, God (the supreme being) is favoring the ones who has taken Sanskar Amrit; do you really think that God will favor one over the other?

Think about it deeply who ARE doing meditation/simran, is it really the taste of tongue? I don't think so, tongue does NOT enjoy. It is the Mind which enjoys the taste via the sense of taste. e.g whenever we're really very sad or depressed, then we don't really enjoy any good food. My take is: Following vegetarian diet without meditation is like putting good quality fuel in the car but not starting the car to continue the journey. We might increase the life span of the car's engine and will also get a reward from the quality controllers (Dharamraj). Another example would be what would be the use of cow (vegetarian) if she does not give milk? So, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's tuks (debate on vegetarian vs non-vegetarian) applies here as we are still in the field of Mind and therefore it does not matter if we go with Mind's one vs the another taste. To the real truth searchers it (Rewards by quality controllers) does not matter as their ultimate aim (Ek-Onkar) is above and beyond the Mind. On the other hand, if one is non-vegetarian and still do NOT do any meditation. Think about putting the waste liquid in the car. They will get punishment from the quality controllers (dharamraj). Now, let's say non-vegetarian also does the extensive meditation, then as he/she is also putting waste liquid (highly bad fuel) then his car (human body) might get low mileage and also run the risk of engine failure (death); he might not be able to complete his journey with that car (human body). If the person has insurance (Guru), then he will get another car but with high premiums. So, we can say that he is responsible for the bad fuel (bad karma) in first place and had to pay for it (in shape of high premiums). For a vegetarian person and also doing meditation, there is NO need for him to start eating meat based upon the tuks of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Here the tuks are intrepreted wrongly implying that it is okay to eat meat as long as you're on path (meditation/simran) and not indulging in debate. In this world of Kal, we are already getting lot of bad karma when we drink plain water, eat plain grain, breathing because all these things do include living beings being killed. Then if we are already in this so complex thing of karma, why to collect more explicit bad karma by eating meat (killing of animals exclusively for the taste of tongue / enjoyment of mind)? Think about it. At the same time, it is also true that God is beyond the karma and Guru can nullify the karma in order to provide the salvation to the Jeev. But also keep in mind that Guru comes only after one have certain good karmas acquired and if one does the bad deeds after getting the Guru, then Guru has to bear the consequences of those bad karams. You can treat this as personal experience from my past human birth in which I was indulged in meat (less) and liquor (main issue) and my Guru did mention in my dreams in that birth to stop doing that. I didn't heed to his guidance and it eventually lead to my physical death in previous birth. Now, in this birth as of now, my mind never wanted (Guru's Grace) meat and liquor even in my college life it never occurred to me to have liquor. But I do know that if I ever start having liquor then I'll be taking in either good or bad times i.e everyday. So, hale tak Guru de kirpa ha.

Even though neither I have read the Uggardanti bani nor I have the good karma of spending decades of Spiritual studies, but I do agree with N30 bhaji. If we go to very basics of the meanings of words, then it would be crystal clear: Khalsa: The one who has tasted the Atam Anand. It is NOT the Khalsa who has taken physical Amrit and declared themselves to be Khalsa. Hindu/Turks: Who was lost in rituals and treat the creation of God as God. This does not apply to True Hindu and/or Turk. Vedas/Other-Spiritual Granths/Mandirs etc: Where Ek-Onkar is not mentioned but duality is mentioned; e.g Veda do talk about the one lord but that one lord is Kal. Where Idols pervail and nobody looks beyond the idols/rules-and-regulations. So, based upon the above definations, anyone could derive that: Atam Anand (True knowledge of Ek-Onkar) or the person having Atam Anand will destroy all the illusions (created in Vedas, Idol worship without looking beyond, always indulged in rituals without taking into consideration the Inner path) created by Kal (in order to decieve the Souls).

To all those who support Meat Eating: It has been told numerous times by Ghost/Bhoots/Negative-Powers (one example of Suleman who was a Ghost but given human birth by Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji) that they (Negative-Powers) are attracted (or say easy prey) to persons who are meat eaters and wine drinkers. It does mean that meat and wine does make the person spiritually less strong. There are many rituals in this world (e.g in Kaula and Mishra school of Tantra but NOT in Samaya school) which does use meat even for spiritual purposes but that is used for the powers that reside in the lower chakras. Basically, they are taking help of those super-natural forces to awaken the kundlini power so that it can go up and reach Trikuti. But why to take such a risky path?? Some say Guru Ji did approve hunting along with meat eating. This is half-truth; Guru Ji did hunting; Guru Nanak did write about the debate of meat-eaters vs vegetarians. But that does not mean that we should mimic that. If we say that no Guru Ji allowed it, then Guru Ji also allowed to fight for injustice, Guru Ji also allowed to sacrifice one's whole family etc. etc. Why don't we copy that? One plain question: What all Spiritual Granths (including Guru Granth Sahib Ji) say about Diet: Eat Simple. Basically, we eat to live. Period. At-least I don't understand the concept of eating meat in today's environment when there are so many simple things to eat. Why you want to eat risky stuff?? Moreover, those who are deadly against the meat-eaters, keep in mind the tuks that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had for this debate and secondly, in almost 98% packaged foods available in market does have some form of animal ingredient (obviously under chemical name). But you know Kaal wants us to keep debating and forget the real purpose of this human birth. Bottom line is: Eat simple which is conductive to our physical body (a temple of God) and also conductive to our Spiritual progress (which is the aim of this human birth). Meat and Liquor does not seem to fit this condition.