chatanga

dont get too hung up on the avatar. i like the picture and the ones of chandi were unsuitable for my avatar. what exactly am i contradicting here i dont know. tell me and i will remove it. once again back to the issue of sitting at the same level. Why cant this apply to the sangat. Why cant we all sit on chairs in the darbar and raise the palki by about 2 feet more, so Guru Jee is still at a higher level? Then we are are sitting at a equal level and no disrespect is hapnin towards Guru Ji. Sensible answers plz. Dynamic , what do you think Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji's prefernce would be ether floor or tables? chatanga

correct me if im wrong(again). chatanga

"chatanga veeer ji, since you are learned gursikh who do kathas in the gurdwara" plz whateva gave u that idea? I cannot do katha at home neva mind Gurudwara. I am a foolish chatanga, not a giani. plz dont write things like that about me

Dear Dynamic Nice post. The institutions of sangat and pangat which were started by Guru Nanak had a specific purpose of creating the feeling of brotherhood between the 4 hinducastres and the muslims. That no-one is created higher or lower. The purpose of sitting on the floor was to instil as sense of humilty fro Sikhs . the introduction of steel utensils in langar duz not in any way counteract the purpose of the pangat. Also the clothing issue that you have brought up is a non issue. How duz wearing a shirt pent counteract the teachings of Guru Nanak? You have a point with the lottery founded centres. THats a valid point which should be discussed in greater detail. But the earlier points are just nonsensical issues which are stopping people from looking at th greater issues. also sikhi to the max being used in no way counteracts the teachings of Guru Nanak. When Guru Nanak went on his 4 tours did he do all his teachings in Panjabi? NO! werever he went he taught in the local language. Can u imagine Guru Nanak saying whoever wants Rabbi Gian must first learn Panjabi to the Arabs, persians, bengalis, turkish, tamils, chinese tibeteans ? So why should we tell people who dont know gurmukhi that they cannot know the message of the Guru Granth Sahib? I suppose a way to draw this line may be to stop use cleveri and chalaki to try and put down someones views. chatanga

""They need to realize that in no community is the action of tenagers acting like celebrities and cursing people double or triple their age acceptable.. "" Remember that wisdom duz not come with age. You will fiind in humnanity that Akal has made some wiser at 15 than some at 50. There are comiitee members of my gurdwara who are in their 50s and 60s and have openly told lies in the committee meetings. When I asked them aboiut it they replied " tu kal de Bhootni " what do u know u were only born yesterday. So again i ask you dont thknk jus cos these people are young they are not wise or unintelligent. Thats makes us look like idiots when we say that. Just like when my feelow committee members use my age to denounce or negate any view i have. This is not fair. remember the sakhi of Baba Budha Ji. chatanga

The tradition of eating langar has always been sitting on the floor. If you think that it is ok to have chairs and tables becuz even then we are sitting at the same level, then this can also be aplied to the diwan as well. why not have chairs in the diwan. Evryone will still be at the same level. The tradition of sangat and pangat started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji has always been sitting on the floor. Who am I to change this traditon?

fyi the hukamanama from akal bunga in 1998 is what they are acting on. acting vedanti issued a sandesh to all sikhs last year to stop these activities. so these people have already the support of Akal Bunga chatanga

Dancing woarrior you should shut up, your hattred is transparent here. the observance of non sikh pratcies was point no 6 , not meaning i had 6 things to moan/complain about. Dancing warrior i never judged any other Sikh personally. However I will and can and evryone else should judge those people who perform the management of the gurdawars and shrines. This is not about me wanting my own way, but about the tradition started by our Gurus , which people have began to distort for thir selfishness or weakness. What hate phobias and predujices do you think i have from reading my previous post? i could say the same for you if i thought you didnt agree with me on something. It seem that you are the one with hate and phobia just cos I am prepared to make a stand on certain practices in the gurdwaras. You are probably one of those who think nankana sahib should still be in the hands of the mahants who killed raped and killed the pilgrims. N30 you state sum very good proposals, but I know that the r4g have always used dialgue and reasoning before turning up on any1s doorstep. Personally I think they should keep using debate as a way forward, but like I said previously they should not be demonised. chatanga

Dancing warrior , I dont pretend to have the solution . But what i have expericned i have told u. Sometimes there is too much anger when things ike this happen and people dont think clearly. What my post was about is the demonisation of the r4g group and suchlike. I have worked with the committe of my local gurdawar for 4 years. They do things i dont like but even if i tell them this is what gurnbani says, they wont listen. Naming and shaming has no effect. I cant send any helpers there. If i try thumping one of them old men it duznt show my valour. what is the recourse? Dont be so quick to judge others on thier stand for gurmat chatanga

Yes sir i can list them and i myself is the source as it has happened to me personally. 1- the observance of caste - I was asked to leave Ramgarhia board gurdwara in stoke on trent as i could not prove i was ramgarhia. This still is observed in gurdwaras, and i have been told of places where chamars were not allowed in the rasoi. 2- the maryada of akhand path is not followed by some gurdwaras. if you want the names i can give. 3- the maryada of langar is blatantly disregarded ie tables and chairs, and also i have been to a gurdwara where they sit with uncovered head in langar hall. 4- the granthis who use alcohol I have seen for myself. 5 gurdwaras that use alcohol sales parties etc to boost income. Amritdharis sikhs were adamant that this was fine. 6 observance of non sikh festivals such as rakhri bandhan, and lohri in gurdwaras. These are the things i have seen , and these are just off the top of my head. There may be some more. chatanga

How sad it is when these children are showing the manmat in a lot of our gurdwaras. How sad it is when these children are highlighting the beadbi going on in gurdwaras! While the elders in our community are spirituallt dead or thier soul is dead. However to me personally it will be a sad day when these people stand up in God's true court and are put behind bars. But the again theres also the reality that these mahants in charge of gurdwaras will continue to live in thier black/white world and stick to thier narrowminded anti Gurmat views. these people will pass on thier grudges to their offspring. I have no doubt that there are one or two manmukh mahants who lead and the rest of the dumbo's just follow them without thinking of what they are doing. I wont be surprised to learn what these mahant's Guru thinks of thier stupidity and manmat practices in gurdwaras. Just so the information is out there, God and Guru are aware of these mahants and manmukhs. Lastly we should all pray to God and ask the Gurus for support that these mahants actually realise the folly of what they are doing and submit to the Guru before its too late. Bhae Kahu Ko Det Nahi Na Bhae Manat Aan - Salok Mahala Nauva chatanga

I asked a scholar once about eating beef, and he said that you have your mothers milk for a year of your life. A cows milk for the rest of your life. Would ytou ever think of killing your mother for foood? Then why think of killing a cow for food. He message was that we should not be Nimak-haraami.

I want to download these speeches . can u help me? chatanga

Hey Fateh please dont get personal. chatanga

Bhai Ram Singh was a true gursikh. He always held the Guru Granth as Guru, and never afforded the title of Guru on himnself.Bhai Ram Singh also apologised at Akal Takht for his supporters calling him Guru. Bhai Ram Singh knew he wasnt the Guru of the Sikhs. His supporters in order to keep his kurbani alive invented history ofGuru Gobind Singh giving Gurgaddi to Bhai Balak Singh. Invention being the key word. Bahi Ram Singh fought for Sikh Panth. How many Namdharis continue this traditon. None. Like Hanspal they are all congress supporters. What have they given the Panth in the last 25/50 years, except lies and invented history. Two main liars Alam and Chakrvati on at least 2 occasion debated the Bahi Ram Singh is guru fabrication with gursikhs from the panth including the Taksal and Budha Dal, and both times they were unable to convince anyone with their reasoning , which was proved rubbish. But they wanted a high status for Bhai Ram Singh so they carried on with thier lies. did Bhai Partap Singh ever denounce the burning of the Guru Granth Sahib at Chando Kalan? Or the other desecrations of Guru Granth Sahib by the nirankari gurbachan who put his foot on Guru Maharaj? Or many other acts of desecration in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Bhai Ram Singh would have deffo done something about it. He would have been first in line to take beatings for the maintaining the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib. He would have given his life but never allowed this desecration to happen. Bhai Ram Singh is a hero, a yodha , but dont try to make him inot something he isnt. As for Bhai Partap Singh his inaction over the last 30 years has proved he donesnt have half the qualities of Sikhi that Bhai Ram Singh had.Bahi Ram Singh most probably would have been ashamed of Bhai Pratap Singh. chatanga

Dear people. in concept what the r4g are trying to achieve in in my opinion a good thing. however as i said arlier they need to use non agressive co-operative agenda to achive these aims. forcing one only creates hatred but force should only be used as a last resort. Dialogue is alwyas the first option. it should never be the last

The akal takt is 1998 issued an appeal to all SIkhs to prevent Guru saroop from being in a place wher manmat activities are carried out. So on the basis of this appeal many Sikhs have put this into practice. Dont diss them for it, but tell them where and when they could achive the same purpose wiv an alternative method. I dont personally agree wiv taking a physical approach but I we do need to do something. I live in wolves and know about ik niwas, have bben inside 1 time to see it, and there was a murti infront of Guru Jee . this was removed when it was objected to. Now I have seen a cd when in the hall where Guru saroop is, people were dacning and touching mahantni feet. So this is disrespect Guru Saroop. As for the namdhari thing, we need sound proof of whats going on before we start going to gurdwaras. Hope to c u at one of these meetings Dynamic. chatanga

Dear Dancing Warrior and all others who think that Im anti Nidar Singh. I am NOT anti Niddar Singh. I agree wiv many of his views on his website nad disagree wiv many of his views on his website. I have met Nidar Singh on a number of occasions and have questioned some of his views. He has responded in a befitting manner and has never questioned me on my approach. However there are some views on his website which I do not beleive are correct. I will continue to question such views. Why this means I show anti Niddar Singh bias only you can answer... chatanga

That would be interesting if it was an autobig, so we would have some idea of his influences and upbringing. chatanga

True , we have to see and read the book b4 we can debate it, but it can only be an extension of Nidar Singhs views on his website, only with more details and with more interviews and photos and more of what those singh sabhas have been upto. I dont think he will venture into any new territory. victory to the panth.

my point about assembling and disasembling Guru Granth sahib is that the point was made that it reduces the time to do akhand path from about 48 to several hours. So duz this take into account the time to disasemle and reassemble the Guru Granth Sahib and who is going to check that all 1430 angs are exactly back in order ? Thats gonna take some time dude!. So maybe this was how it started, but by the end , the naamdharis had began to tear the angs and do the sanskkar after the paath. Also anothe rtradition which was stopped by the naamharis was the hurling of dastaar and have thier kes all over the place in Maharaaj Hajuri. This also stopped after Sikhs confronted the naamdharis over this. Now onto kirpan. Do naamdhairs still wear kirpans on thier kangas? or in thier gatras? chatanga

These caretakers themselvessaid that Ajapal Singh was a nagarchi but he was NOT Guru Gobind Singh in disguise. What was the likelihood that Guru Ji would live the rest of his life in disguise? What about his wives ? Did he have no compassion for them that for the rest of thier lives they would alone? What about the calling that Guru Ji gave Sikhs to live with full bana and be recognosed in 1 lakh, only to go indisguisable himself? Sant Jarnail Singh of Bhindra once stated that on parchaar he was confronted by some naamdhari singhs whoquestioned him on certain things. He stated that after dialogue they jioned the fold of Guru Panth and Guru Granth . Its been a llong time since i heard it, but i remember it cos the naamdahris said that blue colour was to be avoided. only white colour was holy. And the patra path that you talk about. tell me how long does it take to dissemble and reasssemble the angs of Guru Granth Sahib when the naamdharis used to do it. chatanga

thank you cyber singh however the taering of angs by the naamdharis to do patra paaths was comon news and observed by a lot of Sikhs. finally they decided to do summat about it. maybe how you describe it is how it may actually have started, but the reason it was stoped was because of the reasons i haves mentioned earlier. chatanga

The Baba Ajapal Singh incident has been disproved before. look that up first.

The pattar paath incidents of the naamdharis are well-known, it was only after people like kartar Singh Jhabbar and such threatened physical force did it stop. What the kirtani said which was not right, there must be some clairification. Why not put up the whole line and state what exactly they said wrong, so we have more of an idea of we are debating. chatanga