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My only credible is Akali Nihang Singh Panth Budha Dal oral tradition. chatanga

How will this affect Sikhs? chatanga

"Their origins lie with the five Sikhs, Ganda Singh, Karm Singh, Sena Singh, Vir Singh and Ram Singh whom Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh sent from Paunta Sahib to Benares to learn Sanskrit in 1688. " wwww.sarbloh.something Has anyone noticed that in 1688 Khalsa Panth wasnt created yet all the five Sikhs have Singh in thier name? Can any Gurmukh plz explain victory to the Panth chatanga

nice one Dynamic !!

or read " Sri Gurmukh Parkash " by Sant Gurbachan Singh of Bhindra

Fateh to all. why keep it to sticks then? why not use swords? that makes it more real duznt it? chatanga

If only his views were real.

Rupz When you say that Niddar Singh is challenging others its to get better at shastarvidya, is it the same as George Bush taking counties to war to get better military strength? Cos dats what it sounds like to me. Who knew more about shastarvidya than Akali Nihang Guru Gobind SIngh Ji? Who did Guru Ji go around challenging to prove himself? Dont be an apologist for Niddar Singh. chatanga

A lot of it unfortunatley is also true.

WOW!!! A good post giving insight into Niddar Singh and his thinking. A lot of what he says is true, but a lot is rubbish. make up your own minds. The status of the Udasis is in question. The Panth outcaste the udasi after 1921, but then regretted this decision and made provisions for their former status to be reinstated in 1973. Becasue of this 60 year gap in which there was no mil jor with the panth, a lot of young Sikhs believe that these people were never Sikhs. This is not true. The Udasi panth were always respected until their own doing in the 1800s and early 1900s, when they began to rape and kill pilgrims. while the Akali Nihnag Singh panth watched quietly. But this chatanga will state now and people make up your own minds. The Udasis and Nihangs while in theory still cling to the traditions of the past , they do not practise them. The udasis still worship idols even tho we know this is pure manmat. also thier bana includes jatta. which Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Jee stated in Bachitar Natak he wont allow his Sikhs to wear jatta. Things like this. Many things like this the udasis have abandoned the ways of their ancestors. So have the nihangs even though they are not a guru ordained sampradye as Niddar Singh wants us to beleive. The only sampradye with any credit is the nirmala and sewa panthis. These people have followed Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singhs hukam, also the nirmala have moved slightly over to vedanta. So many things icould write, but theres only 1 chatanga. Also Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Jee never challenged anyone to a fight, but always fought agrresion. so Niddar Singh or anyone else should not be aggressive or try to challenge anyonbe else. Its manmat to do this. Guru Jee has shown us the way. Follow it to the best of your ability. victory to the panth chatanga

Fateh to all Rupz Jee You can read about this fully in a book called "the role and status of women in sikhism" by Dr m k gill. chatanga

Persian accounts of the moghals talk aboiut ajit singh . this was not sahibzada Ajit Singh, but an adopted son of Mata Sundri who was renamed Ajit Singh. He rebeled against Mata Jee and tried to set himself up as the next Guru. He was executed on Bahadur Shahs order. Some people actually think this Ajit Singh was Guru jee actual Son. but in Zafarnama states to Aurazneb " sowhat if my sons are dead? " . So we know that all 4 Sahibzadas became Shaheed before this time. chatanga

of course niddar singh will pass on his views thru his book. He is anti bhindra mehta. But they were not to blame for Baba Jee being excommunicated. The fault of Baba Santa Singh being excommuncaited lay with Baba Jee himself. He didnt have the vision or foresight to see the repercussions, and instead treid to use it as an oppurtunity to score a point against the malesh sgpc. this backfired in big way, and it was so sad to see that the nihang singh as a whole were actually seen as sarkari. so sad. chatanga

Niddar Singh is presenting a tradition of the past. But these 4 samprdaye todays apart from sewapanthi, and nirmala are not a patch on the samprdaye of old. the Nihangs and Udasis most certainly are not. Niddar Singh claims that they are. This is rubbish. One day at Darbar Sahib a brahmin came and started crying that his wife had been taken by the soldeirs of the subedar of kasur. Akali Lehna Singh Bhangi and all the other Sikhs who were sitting and eating langar at once stood up, and mounting their horses prepared for war. They attacked Kasur and brought back the brahmins wife. Now could you ever see Baba Santa Singh Jee or any of the other Nihang Singh making a similiar stand in todays times if the son of the Punjab Chief Minister kidnapped a girl? Exactly. Thats why the traditions are alive only in name. In 1982 the police attacked Baba Kirtan Singh shuani in Amritsar and killed some Nihangs and horses. Which dal apart from Baba Bidhi Dal, Harian vela Dal presented them selves there to find out what had happned. After the shaheedi of Mani Singh , Aghar Singh declared he would kill the qazi who passed sentence on Mani Singh. Did Akali Nihang 96 crore Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Jee make any such declaration on the police who shot the Nihangs? victory to the panth chatanga

Dear Shaheediyan You make some very valid point which i completely agree with about the namdharis. I know that they have certainly kept simplicity and raag kirtan an essential part of thier life, which i bow to. However they break or defy the tradition that began 150 years before they did, about the Granth being the Guru. Ram Singh had to go pesh at Akal Bunga and apologise for his supporters calling him guru. But these people still didnt stop. So either his supporters are telling the truth and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh is lying, or Guru Maharaaj is telling the truth. I know which i'd rather believe.

Written evidence? Dont make me laugh. The very existence of Budha Dal as a Guru ordained samprdsay is rubbish. Budha Dal only came about with Nawab Kapur Singh and YES there are texts that say this. So here is where oral tradition works. why cant the same apply to DDT?

My version of Sikhi would not cease to exist. Why would Akali Guru Har rai Jee condemn Ram Rai for changing 1 word of Gurbani, when he could have equally said, " my version of sikhi will still exist" . The version of sikhi existing is not the debate here, but the shrewd people taking advantage of the fears of people and profiting from them. Duz your version of Sikhi exist still? even tho the Singh Sabha tileds over fresco that purport to be pictures of the Gurus? Again not that it makes a difference. Well to you maybe, if its against what you say. But then again you never try to listen to the opposite side.

Oral tradition should realy be considered for all samprdaye and schools then shaeediyan. Niddar Singh discounts taksal of Bindra mehta and uses a quote from prof. trilochan singh to back up his claim, and states that after years of requests they have not been able to provide any texts to back their claim. So what? niether have the budha dal, but he accepts what they say. What does he have against the jatha of bhindra mehta? Oral tradition can be used to justifly anything. But remember the chinese whispers game. Oral tradition for one, Oral Tradition for all. Victory to the Panth chatanga

nidar singh book will be no difrent from his website, juss more nihang oral tradition to justify their claim to evrything good. or bad. its suposed to be out this march .

Fateh to all By your reasoning fateh singh, then people would revert back to those 5 groups who are khaarj from the panth dhirmalia ram raiye etc. These people claim the truth for themselves, so if we say dont follow these people, then why draw the line at others? the namdhari claim is the same as the Prithi Chands claim over Akali Guru Arjan Dev Jee. They too draw up the same lineage to prove that they were the rightful heirs to gurgaddi. So falsedom and false parchaar has to be combated, otherwise we will end up like the hindus, with a new sect arising evry day. Also the same about people the radha swamis., the sacha sauda mob, and bhaniara amongst countless others who are eating into the fabric of soceity. Chatanga

fateh going back to the namdharis, they rely very heavily on Sau Sakhi. A lot of the gianais i have spoken to about sau sakhi, say generally its one of those tezts that have been heavily corrupted, but also there are many versions of it. However i have read about 30 sakhis of the copy that i have, and i didnt find anything out of the ordinary about it. Akal Sahai I will read the other 70 soon. Any other gurmukhs out there read sau sakhi? and what are you rcomments on it? chatanga

I bow to Rai Azizullah's humility. That expression of it being the same if it were a pot of clay. Theres a lesson for all us Sikhs there. Akali Guru Gobind Singh gave his ancestors a Sagar, which they have chersihed. Akali Guru Gobind Singh gave us bana and bani which we have more or less discarded. God Bless the Rai family. Chatanga

Dear Dynamic thats a very good post and i like your answers. But I have nothing against the nihangs. I wear blue myself and hate anyothers criticising the chatka gatka traditions of the Nihangs. I so much wish to see hola mohalla again. But my criticism is on the Nihangs claiming and things like criticism of Banda Singh, and tending to shut thier eyes over certain events like in punjab over the last 30 years. Also they claim the sgpc are malesh and last year they were hugging makar and having their photo taken. stuff like that. So please dont think that i dont like Nihangs. i have a lot of respect for them for the roles they played in the past. Certainly in the future or the l;ast 30 they have gone down in the panths estimation. Friends in Panjab said to me when i visited "why you like nihangs? they are sellouts!!. I said no brother, they just havent got their prioriites right. One day they will and lead the panth to victory and freedom. get your head out the clouds they said." victory to the panth chatanga

fateh to all Tsingh I bow to your knowledge. Thnak you for having mercy on this chatanga and submitting a reply. Those were realy long posts and i thought it was a cut and paste job . I really want thank you for having the patience to sit and type such long posts. I will try and read about Nirmala more. Baba Joginder Singh gave us darshan at our gurdwara last year. first time ive ever seen a nirmala. Unfortunatley because of my reponsibilites at gurdwara i had to leave deevan, just as he was coming to origins of nirmala. I wish so muchthat i could have stayed and listened. but he did not wear the 5 k's. at least not kirpan and kara. he wore the orange robes like a sadhu wears. forgive this chatanga victory to the panth

Question for Dynamic Are non budha dal sikhs khalsa? chatanga