Dancing Warrior

“Taken from Sikh Sangat” Gurbani is now my puppet it now sings to my tune….blasphemy Believe as I believe or suffer hell and damnation

God, creator, created and life is beyond meaning to give it a meaning you’ve restricted the vastness and infinite quality. We only comprehend the small morsels of infinite Pratama within our intellectual capacity. Accumulative knowledge and prayer amass is not about spirituality. Spirituality it is about experience with creator and all creation via the route of life.

Ignorance has been the catalyst on both sides of the spectrum in this situation. Everyone’s fighting the righteous cause regardless of human tragedy. As an experiment take away the labels on this incident and it’s the same primitive mentality throughout the world throughout history. In an age when access to information and knowledge has never been so spontaneous its use is still unrefined in the hands of Neanderthals. Everyone’s under attack and everyone’s being assimilated paranoia is the only religion just in different garbs, there you go! Common ground for all the righteous beadbi police out there all alike the protestors, leaflet distributors, shooters, baba this that and the other……and all the fascist hate mongers at sikhsangat.Crap

Sikhsangat.com is nothing but a hive of self back slapping pricks!

I will now leave and pray for your souls whilst you continue your cheap personal attacks for lack of real arguments. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah There is no need for you to pray for our souls; you need to pray for your kith and kin that obviously as a vast majority are alien to your “lost world of Atlantis†dreams. :wink:

The Linga originally was a tool for yogic science it was never an object for worship. I think there are only two or three remaining within India today that of any significance and power. The whole complex or temple that the Linga was built in was a science in itself lost today except for a handful who do still have the knowledge. Today we find a mix of two types of belief systems of devotional worship towards the Linga, this originally never happened. Devotional worship being one method for example Sikhi, and the Linga towards another method more inline with yogic science. Both towards the same goal ultimately.

Bahudar ali, you should spend less time on the net and a bit more time working those floppy pounds off your midsection. Again You spend your time slating Sikhi and Sikhs the reality is you’re only frustrated with yourself and your inability to root yourself in any worthy society according to your trumped up standards. This is not to deviate from the topic and the vastness on knowledge crammed in your cranium but more of an analysis of your twisted mischievous behaviour. If we are failing, then let us fail, you obviously are enlightened enough to have found the true path so what concern is it of yours what happens to the non-believers in your bakwasism? Fundamentally your motive is to destabilise and create doubt and confusion; this is fine, because ultimately these are also the tools that are required for seekers to gain knowledge. On another level what people don’t seem to understand is true devotion be it in Sikhi, Islam or whatever doesn’t require the collection of mass information and surgical minds to disprove beliefs of others or confirm their own. The ill intentional mass of knowledge doesn’t differ from any other obsessive wants, desires and needs if anything it’s probably the worst one. It’s the bahudar ali mentality that is responsible for the most of the conflict in the world today, just take a look it’s all there, everyday in the papers in the news. However we started, however we developed, however we argue today, we don’t blow each other up in markets squares, schools and hospitals indiscriminately killing innocent women and children alike. You see it doesn’t matter if a man prays to an apple yet he knows fundamentally the grossness of such actions, but how can he know anything to the likes of the True knowledge and enlightened mentality of the likes a bandar ali who excepts it as perfectly acceptable……as long as they’re from the opposite opinion and faction. Bahudar get a hobby and get on an exercise bike and to those that blew their trumpets in the defence of the pseudo-scholar over the last few years, let this be a lesson to you. Flipping saps.

I miss the Puratan 1980’s!

Such things have compiled karma that they could not work off during their life. This causes them to “hang around” after they leave their body. Unnatural death for example by disease, accident, murder etc can leave such beings in a traumatic state. After the physical death they do not have reason, choice, and intelligence as we understand it they only behave according to their compulsion, tendencies, and desires. There is no rational thought as we know it because that part of the physical has been left in the body. Their actions simply reflect what is engrained in their Karma. There is no right or wrong because for them there is no choice. To us they do and can appear according to their projection of their engrained karma those tendencies that were the strongest during their life. To us they appear distorted but they are simply projected honestly according to their karma. They cannot see themselves as this; they only see types of energy manifestations, this is also how they see us. Not all are like this and there are different types and levels. Some are very aware and have chosen to remain in this state for their own reasons. Some remain in hellish states some heavenly. There is no “Dark Art” as such this fascination with darkness being evil etc etc is just stereotyping. Darkness in unlimited it is light that has limitations. The occult also is not this evil force we in the west associate it to, often near very ancient temples there are also tantric temples these are there to attract these beings and help them towards closure, liberation, Mukti etc. These are there to stop such beings from going in to the main temple due to its nature it attracts such beings. The Yogi, whose knowledge this is explains in great depth and often deals with such matters and the liberation of such beings, continues to say that those who entrap such beings for their own use and desires are the same as those that molest children. These lost beings like us are the same as us, ultimately aware or unaware they also seek Mukti. And those that manipulate such being spend their own limbo in the most hellish states.

In defence I wasn’t using the term loosely or re-defining it. The “it†being larger than the term. The term was most suitable for the expression of action, I was simply trying to explain something to the best of my ability. There was no motive or intent for “the validation of (my) views†therefore I stand not guilty of all three of your charges.

Energy as you say is a make up of a type of matter and the overall energy vibrancy, true, but this is not the tangible energy I’m referring to. I use the term “energy†because in this case it is the easiest way to explain, it is not really energy at all……it gets long talking about different types of Karmic make up of the physical, Mind etc and what some refer to as the “Soul†and its relevance to such incidents, so I use the word energy, however this is also inaccurate. The “it†here is incredibly complex and difficult to explain. There is nothing Mystical, Paranormal or Hippy heaven about it, simply the process of physical death and the subsequent scenarios, No Science, No Scripture.

Such things are just energies, which for some reason are not able to transcend to closure. Usually in the case of possessions the energy, ghost etc call it what you like, can if vibrant enough cause possessions longing the attachment to live. Usually they are used remorselessly by those that dabble in the occult. Such energies that are traumatised enough are used in these ways.

"Who you gonna call!?........Ghostbusters!"

Maybe he didn’t go off in a strop, maybe he just went to fetch!

:cry: By Mahmood Zaman LAHORE, Jan 24: Much has been written on Lahore Fort and its grandeur since the days of Emperor Akbar. But the book by Nazir Ahmad Chaudhry, the secretary-administrator of the Punjab Archives, has the distinction of throwing light on some of the missing aspects of the historic fort. One of the chapters of the book, Lahore Fort — A Witness To History, talks about Dr John Spencer Login who was appointed the first governor of Lahore Fort when the British annexed the Punjab in 1849. A personal friend of Sir Henry William’s, the first head of the board of administrators of the Punjab (the predecessor of the lieutenant governors), Dr Login was in the service of the East India Company at Lucknow and came to Lahore for a job. Sir Henry recommended his name and Governor-General Lord Dalhousie approved his appointment as the fort’s governor in March 1849. Dr Login’s job was to prepare an inventory of all assets of the Sikh period like jewels including the Koh-i-Noor, look after young Maharaja Dilip Singh and his personal staff and ‘ranis’ and the widows of Sikh rulers and top officials. He was also supposed to take care of state prisoners undergoing trial at the Fort — the ‘diwan’ (prime minister) of Multan Moolraj, Raja Chattar Singh, Raja Sher Singh and Raja Lal Singh. The Sikh regime’s state Toshakhana (treasury) was then inside the Moti Masjid. He writes how he wondered when he first saw how precious diamonds were kept in rolled up bits of rags which were placed in velvet purses. These purses were found strewn all around. When Login placed one of the diamonds on his palm, he wondered about its price. Later, he ordered wooden boxes to keep them in order. This inventory was to be presented to the governor-general who, in consultation with the British government in London, was to dispose of all the Fort belongings “in a befitting manner.†As the first governor of Lahore Fort, and later as Punjab’s general, Login used to correspond with his wife in London. These letters throw light on his activities. When he finished his work, he wrote a letter to Lord Dalhousie giving a description of his inventory. Also attached to the letter was a Memorandum of Memorabilia which discussed some of the most important personnel and articles under his charge. They included “the young ruler of the Sikhs (Dilip Singh), the families of Ranjit Singh and of all the successive Maharajas of the Punjab including 33 ranis and 130 concubines. The princes of the Abdali family, rulers of Afghanistan and Kashmir. The court of establishment of all the Lahore Maharajas, including six sets of courtesans, natives of Kashmir, and five full bands of musicians. The Nawab of Multan (Diwan Moolchand) and his families.†In addition to four main state prisoners, the Lahore Fort also imprisoned “10 other men of note, including Hakim Rai and his two sons. The female attendants of Rani Jindan from Chunar†were also added to the list. The inventory included “keys and royal seals of Moti Mandir (Moti Masjid inside Lahore Fort was turned into Moti Mandir by Ranjeet Singh) and of (the fort of) Givindgarh†where Sikh rulers had set up royal treasuries. Dr Login’s list of “memorabilia†reads that “the diamond (Koh-i-Noor), the state jewels and treasure in gold, silver and precious stones; dishes, plates, cups, cooking pots and gurrahs (water pitchers) of gold and silver. The vast store of Kashmir shawls, chogas (robes), satin and velvet shamianas embroidered with gold, richly colourful Iranian and Bokhara carpets, gold, silver tent poles, etc, was also a part of the huge fortune the Sikhs had left behind. Maharaja Ranjeet Singh’s “golden chair of state; his silver summer-house, gold and silver poled tents and camp equipage of rich Cashmere; arms and armoury, very magnificent, the wedding garments of Maha Singh; besides these many valuable curiosities and relics of all kinds, too numerous to note†also formed the Sikh assets. Login writes that “Shah Shuja’s state pavilion, gorgeously embroidered; the Kulgee (head-gear plume) of last Sikh spiritual leader Guru Gobind Singh; the sword of Holkar (Maratha ruler); the sword of Wazir Fateh Khan, the founder the Baruksye family of Kabul and Kandhar; the sword of Persian hero Rustam (which Ranjit Singh received from Shah Shuja); the armour worn by warriors and Sardars of note, many of them stained with their blood — are very very precious.†Also listed by Login were the relics of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) like his shoes, walking stick, shirt, cap, pyjama, books of prayer (Holy Quran) in Kufic characters, several locks of his hair etc. These relics were subsequently donated by the British to the Badshahi Masjid where they are still on display at a separate gallery. The value of the Sikh jewellery alone was estimated by Login to be around Rs1,650,000. This did not include the price of the Koh-i-Noor which was acknowledged to be “priceless.â€

Hang on! Kam says “cheers Neo i think Tirath was after this a couple of weeks ago” But Javanmard replies!?! “you're welcome” Are Javanmard,Neo,N30 the same person?

Javi stated “But what did he do in Baghadad? He publicly recited the Shi'a adhan which includes the shahada: I witness that there is no God but God that Muhammad is his rasul and that Ali is his wali! reciting this in front of witnesses makes one AUTOMATICALLY a Muslim!” Then Javi goes on to state “How come half of dasam bani deals with puranic material? How come Ram and rahim are used as names of God in gurbani then? Why does Guru Gobind Singh re-use Qur'anic verses? Unless of course you miss the point of the verse which that Guru Gobind Singh looked beyond religious boundaries.” So according to Javi, Guru Nanak was bound by Islamic law because he recited the “Shi’a adhna” so that makes him a Muslim! but he then goes on to say “Guru Gobind Singh looked beyond religious boundaries.” So Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s projection and mindset was beyond religious rules, laws and boundaries therefore not bound by any of them. May I suggest that none of our Gurus were bound by any established system of religious law however glorified or beautified. Actually I also have just recited “Shi’a adhna” and I am still very much the same!

“More than a century was dedicated to scholarly study of shiism in general and of Imamism in particular. A number of Islamic scholars ands orientalises have been interested in this most important “branch†of Islam, and the number of articles, works and monographs dedicated to the subject is impressive. Nevertheless, when it comes to early Imamism. That is, the doctrine supposedly professed by historical imams of Shiism, later called Twelver Shiism, we must surprising admit that we still have no clear idea that has been corroborated by a coherent body of historical data. There is still no systematic, exhaustive study of this formative early phase of the doctrine.†Moezzi Translated by D.Streight Zoroastrianism. The religion of the followers of the Iranian prophet Zoroaster (c.1200 BCE). The history of the religion prior to the 6th century BCE is largely unknown. Thereafter it became the state religion of three successive Iranian empires: the Achaemenids (c.549-331 BCE); the Parthians (2nd century BCE to 224 CE); and the Sasanians (224-642 CE), the boundaries of whose territories extended into what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan and westwards into what is now Iraq, and at times into Palestine and what is now Turkey. Zoroastrian Iran was finally defeated by the expansion of Islam, but for over 1,000 years Zoroastrianism was the official religion of three major world empires, making it, perhaps, the most powerful world religion of the time. The last Zoroastrian monarch was Yazedegird (d. 652 CE). The modern Zoroastrian calendar begins with his coronation and the designation anno Yazdegird (AY) is used. Since the end of the Zoroastrian state the religion has been persistently and harshly persecuted by Muslims in Iran, so that the faithful few have been forced to retreat into remote villages, especially near the desert cities of Yazd and Kerman, where they have generally lived in abject poverty. Greater freedom was granted under the Pahlavi dynasty, and the new Islamic Republic has promised to preserve the rights of minorities. It is a considerate tribute to the strength of the faith that even a small group has surivived the millennium of oppression. They are often referred to as the 'Zardushti' or as gabr (gaur/gor/guebre), meaning 'infidel'. They themselves sometimes used the term 'Mazda-yasnians' (worshippers of Mazda). In the 10th century CE some Zoroastrians left Iran to seek a new land of religious freedom and settled in north-west India, where they are known as Parsis (=Persians). The main centres of Zoroastrianism nowadays are India (mainly Bombay), 72,000; Iran, 30,000 plus; Pakistan, 2,000; Britain, 5,000; and North America, 6,000 (all figures are approximate). Traditional Zoroastrian teachings are found in the holy book, the Avesta, and the Pahlavi literature. An essential feature of all worship (yasna), centred on fire, is physical and moral purity. Zoroastrianism is often described as a dualism because of its teaching on a wholly good God, Ahura Mazda, who is opposed by the evil Angra Mainyu. It is, however, a central part of this optimistic religion that evil will be defeated. There is no idea of a spirit/flesh dualism because both the spiritual and the material worlds are the creation (bundahishn) of God. Humans therefore have a religious duty to care for both the material and the spiritual aspects of their existence. It is a religion which inculcates the highest moral ideals. Once the believer has been initiated (naujote) he or she (there is little difference in the religious duties of the sexes) should fight evil in all its forms. Zoroastrianism has considerable historical importance because of its geographical position astride the routes between East and West, and also because of its profound influence on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, especially in regard to beliefs on heaven, hell, resurrection of the dead and the final judgement. It is also thought that it inspired a belief in a saviour to come in Hinduism (Kalkin) and Buddhism. From John R. Hinnels, ed., The Penguin Dictionary of Religions, 2nd ed. (1997). Text © Penguin Books. Zoroastrianism and Parsiism. Ancient religion that originated in Iran based on the teachings of Zoroaster. Founded in the 6th century BCE, it influenced the monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It rejects polytheism, accepting only one supreme God, Ahura Mazda. In early Zoroastrianism, the struggle between good and evil was seen as an eternal rivalry between Ahura Mazda's twin sons, Spenta Mainyu (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil). Later Zoroastrian cosmology made the rivalry between Ahura Mazda himself (by then called Ormizd) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman). This later cosmology identifies four periods of history; the last began with the birth of Zoroaster. Zoroastrian practice includes an initiation ceremony and various rituals of purification intended to ward off evil spirits. Fire worship, a carryover from an earlier religion, survives in the sacred fire that must be kept burning continually and be fed at least five times a day. The chief ceremony involves a sacrifice of haoma, a sacred liquor, accompanied by recitation of large parts of the Avesta, the primary scripture. Zoroastrianism enjoyed status as an official religion at various times before the advent of Islam, but Zoroastrians were persecuted in the 8th–10th centuries, and some left Iran to settle in India. By the 19th century these Indian Zoroastrians, or Parsis, were noted for their wealth and education. The small group of Zoroastrians remaining in Iran are known as the Gabars. From Wendy Doniger, ed., Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions (1999). Text © Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Javi old chap! would you not say that Shiism, generally is heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, its culture, system of faith etc etc?

I guess you’re still struggling with your hierarchy of needs, still trying to work out who, what and where you are.

Chubby wan Kenobi, If any one is reaching random conclusions its you as you seem to derive from random resources anyhow. By the way Chubby if we’re so flawed and it pretty obvious you singularly are your own Sangath, why are you not a Shia Muslim? With all its beatifications?

I see Bahndar Singhs beating his chest again! What he fails to mention is that the Shia schools of thought are so vast and differ greatly amongst themselves. You could say even though they collectively call themselves similar (tribalism) but they differ as much as oil and water. What Bahadar fails to demonstrate is a single school of thought a collective order, foundation which clearly shows similarities with Sikhi and Khalsa. He’s simply picking and choosing from the vast spectrum of Shia philosophies and traditions and cross referencing them to Sikhi. If one was to take any faith it can be crossed referenced to Shia traditions etc, but again there will be no collective that shows one school predominantly originally nurturing the seed of thought before it was followed taken up by another etc.

Any updates on this topic, Maha Singh was going to find out about Rustam in reference to Nihangs and Zafarnama? Is Rustam the same character as Saint George? Was Guru jis Baaz really called Rustam?

Freed ji you’re a true asset my friend