ms514

Sat Sri Akal: For quite a bit of time, the Nihang Jatha from England has been saying that the true martial arts of the Nihangs is Shastar Vidiya. Their websites, Sarbloh.info and shastarvidiya.com claim that Gatka is a watered-down child-play that has no battlefield relevance. Then I come across a Buddha Dal website. It's address is: http://www.budhadal.com/ The website does not mention the words Shastar Vidiya even once. Rather, under the Sports section, it is written "Hola Mohalla gives an opportunity to every Nihang to display his or her own skills in Gatkha (A game that is played with swords and sticks like fencing in Europe), Horse riding and taming." So Nihungs do Gatka??? What is going on people? The England Nihangs spent all this time making Gatka seem to be the enemy of the Sikh Panth and now I am reading this from the Buddha Dal website? I am sorry to open this discussion again but I need answers!!!

Sat Sri Akal: Making an accusation of nindya against Sant Jarnail Singh and then calling it "insignificant"? Nice try. If it was so insignificant, why did you even bring it up? Obviously, it was significant to at least one Namdhari - you. So please back up this accusation with some sort of evidence.

Sat Sri Akal: You've caught my ear, Fateh Singh Ji. What "nindya" did Sant Sahib do? Remember, nindya is false lies against a person or group. Care to list them?

Sat Sri Akal: First about Nihungs. Nihungs had an enemy of the state status during the British rule. They were shot on site. So to say that the Nihungs were "friendly" with the British is not correct. Naamdharis are quite against Khalistan, as their website proudly waves the Indian flag and proclaims to be in service of India. Otherwise, debating with Naamdharis is quite pointless. It comes down to "My history is right and yours is wrong" and becomes a circular argurment. The decision will be made when the Khalsa comes to power as it will clearly show who the Guru's choice is.

Sat Sri Akal: There is this line in Jaap Sahib: Tribhavan maheep sur narr asur naet naet bann trin kahet. Kings of the three worlds (Powerful kings), gods, people, demons, and even grass and straws call You Limitless. (You are Limitless). Jaap Sahib, Chhapaae Chhand Tav Parsad (first verse).

Sat Sri Akal: By the way, here's Guru Gobind Singh's comment on the matter: ________________________________________________________ Excerpts from Rahit Naama Bhai Nand Lal What were the last commandments of Guru Gobind Singh before merging into the Infinite? Articulation of Bhai Nand Lal Dohira What you have stated, Oh My Gurdev Master, `come to seek my vision,' Please enable me to understand, how can we pursue the same.(9) Articulation of Sri Guru Jee Dohira Assiduously listen Nand, there are three entities of mine, And these, you comprehend, are Transcendental, Attributive and the Guru's Shabad, the Celestial Word.(10) Chaupeyi Only one Perception, which is beyond all the attributes, Which has been expounded many a time in Vedas,(11) And knowing all the thoughts, prevails through out, And is indivisible like water,(12) Deem (that) written on each of your body-hair, And the factual pronouncement I make to you for veracity:(13) The Sikh desirous of Guru's Darshan, Should go and have the Darshan of Granth Jee,(14) After ablution at the ambrosial hour, And, auspiciously, undertake its circumambulation,(15) Dohira With folded hands be seated, seeking my audience, And with mind lodged in Guru Granth Jee, listen to the celestial pontification.(16) Chaupeyi Hearing the Shabad with concentration, and by putting mind into Guru, Listen and make others to heed to Guru's enlightening Shabad.(17) One who wants to communicate with me, He may read, listen to and ponder over Granth Jee.(18) Ones who aspire to listen to my sermons, Diligently, should read and recite Granth Jee.(19) Deem Granth Jee as my embodiment, And concede to no other perception.(20) My Sikh is my third embodiment, Who remains imbued in the essence of Gurbani.(21) One who puts confidence and affection upon the Guru's Shabad. He, always and ever, achieves the vision of the Guru.(22) He should revel in listening and recounting Guru's Shabad, And with full concentration read Jap Jee Jaap.{23) Go and espy the Guru's Portal, And discard the diversionary sanctuaries.(24) With zeal serve the Sikhs of the Guru, After relinquishing all the ego from his mind.(25) One who manifests in these actions, That Sikh recognises my manifestation.(26) Dohira That Sikh of Guru gets acceptance, which performs the service, And the one who surrenders through mind, body and soul, becomes prominent server of mine.(27) The service of such a Sikh of Guru is approved by me, And, listen Nand earnestly, this is the way, the heaven is secured.(28) Excerpts from Pritpal Singh Bindra?s forthcoming book in English, "Kalaam-e-Goya" to be published by Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh. <bindra@home.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Taken from http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....BA?OpenDocument

Sat Sri Akal: Only one thing gives a person the way to the Almighty: The Almighty! For a Sikh, taking amrit, joining saadh sangat and doing paath is the way of salvation. Sometimes God blesses the Earth with a Sant who can guide us to the above path (ex. Sant Attar Singh). Sometimes, a person is blessed with the desire for that path by God (ex. Bhai Randhir Singh). But in the end, it is God's kirpa that will determine our path.

Sat Sri Akal: Interesting read, NaamByassi. I have gotten a chance to go to some AKJ samagams, I have heard raag-kirtan and I have had my fill of Narinder Garewal. First, let us discuss raag kirtan. What is Raag? Raag is a musical scale system that gives kirtan a framweork to be sung. Contrary to what a lot of raagis try to tell is, it is NOT "SA RE GA MA PA DA NE SA". If anything, these raagis are also interfering with kirtan's message, and with absolute nonsense that has nothing to do with Gurbani! And contrary to popular belief, many of the kirtanias in the AKJ samagams DO kirtan in a raag structure. They just don't do the full repotoire of "SA RE etc." As far as Waheguru Simran in kirtan, I am too uneducated in the matter to comment. But I can say that the kirtan performed by the AKJ is very uplifting and canaffect the mind quite powerfully. Raagis who sing in full raag have yet to give me the same blissful feeling. Do not take this to be my defense for the AKJ's ignoring of the Panthic Rehat. That is not minor violation and one that they will have to deal with soon. And this Narinder Garewal...tell me, what type of Brahm Gyani steals someone's wife??? His works that say that the Panj Pyare are nothing, his proclaiming that he has been to a Khand (Paar-Brahm Khand) that even the Gurus did not "deserve" to go into (evidenced by works of one Multani on the Satnaam website itself) and many other comments have proven to me that this man has issues (many of which might be resolved tonight!). He has even claimed that he can damn people to hell with his command! I thought a Guru was to save people, not banish them! If a living Guru was always necessary, tell me how did Sant Attar Singh, a Brahm-Gyani himself, attain his status without a Living Guru? And this business about inner rehat, which is coupled with "Sikhi is inside" statement is the biggest fraud ever! If everyone was such a Sikh inside, would it not overflow to the outside? What do you think Guru Gobind Singh meant by "Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Nyara?" What...we should have ponytails and wear Kirpan pendants??? A decision is likely to be made about this Narinder Garewal tonight. We shall see what type of Brahm Gyani he is soon enough.

Sat Sri Akal: Sangat Jio, you are all very ahead of me! You all are discussing what is on page 1430...I have yet to go beyond doing paath out of a gutka!!! Shall I assume that everyone has read pages 1-1429 already, since we are discussing this last page?

Sat Sri Akal: Here are some. All you have to do is go to www.sikhitothemax.com and type in the word Sikh and look at the results. There are too many to list! Transliteration: gur kaa sikh bikaar thae haattai || Translation:The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds. Pannaa: 286 Line:15 Transliteration: oupudhaes j dhithaa sathiguroo so suniaa sikhee ku(n)nae || Translation:The Sikhs listen to the Teachings imparted by the True Guru. Pannaa: 314 Line:9 Transliteration: koorriaar koorriaaree jaae rulae sachiaar sikh bait(h)ae sathigur paas || Translation:The false go and mingle with the false, while the truthful Sikhs sit by the side of the True Guru. Pannaa: 314 Line:19 Transliteration: guroo sikh sikh guroo hai eaeko gur oupudhaes chulaaeae || Translation:The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. Pannaa: 444 Line:8 Transliteration: vuddubhaagee gur kae sikh piaarae har nirubaanee nirubaan pudh paaeiaa || Translation:Very fortunate are the beloved Sikhs of the Guru; through the Lord, they attain the supreme state of Nirvaanaa. || Pannaa: 494 Line:2 Transliteration: so sikh sukhaa bu(n)dhhup hai bhaaee j gur kae bhaanae vich aavai || Translation:He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will. Pannaa: 601 Line:18 Transliteration: so guroo so sikh hai bhaaee jis jothee joth milaae ||1|| Translation:He alone is the Guru, and he alone is a Sikh, O Siblings of Destiny, whose light merges in the Light. ||1|| Pannaa: 602 Line:18 Transliteration: gurumukh sukheeaa sikh guroo maelaaeeaa || Translation:The Guru unites His Sikhs, the Gurmukhs, with the Lord. Pannaa: 648 Line:3 Transliteration: saevuk sikh poojun sabh aavehi sabh gaavehi har har oothum baanee || Translation:All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Lord, Har, Har. Pannaa: 669 Line:14 Transliteration: jio praanee jul bin hai muruthaa thio sikh gur bin mar jaaee || Translation:Just as the mortal dies without water, so does the Sikh die without the Guru. || Pannaa: 757 Line:19

Sat Sri Akal: Another stupid question: Does anyone call themselves a Sikh anymore?

Sat Sri Akal: Me must ask stupid question: What are this "Dodra Sangat"?

Sat Sri Akal: Hindus shouldn't need the Khalsa for that. They have the Kshytria class, whose sole purpose of existence is to defend the Hindu faith from threats. Unfortunately, they "forgot" that duty when the Mughals came. Khalsa's purpose is to save mankind from oppression, not just Hindus.

Sat Sri Akal: Please, this is my amateur observation on Gurbani. Only Guru Sahib knows the real truth. How can the Almighty take birth when Mool Mantar itself states that God does not take birth? All the creations of this world can be seen as having a tiny piece of the Lord in them (what we call the Soul). This soul remains silent and hidden in a human in that area which we call the Dasam Duar, who does his/her daily duties. It iswhat animates this dirtfacade we call a body. However, when a person, through worship and meditation on the Almighty obliterates his/her ego, that soul in the Dasam Duar shines forth and transcends its boundaries of the body. The soul, being of the essence of the Almighty itself, shines forth and becomes the Almighty's presence on Earth. Consider the soul to be a drop of water from the infinite ocean of the Almighty. When one eradicates the dirt of manmukhi (ego-driven being), the Almigty's drop of water, the soul, shines forth and illumintes the world. Therefore, to say that that soul is God in totality and its full glory would be untrue. While those individuals are the embodiment of the Lord's essence and shine forth in the Lord'spresence, at the same time, the Lord's essence is also in every creature, every molecule, every atom and so forth. And that is just the sirgun (material form). The Lord is beyond material form also, being described as Nirgun, or without physical composition. Thus, Lord is everywhere AND nowhere at all times. I hope that this clarifies some things. If I have made a mistake, please correct me and forgive my mistake. I am still learning.

Sat Sri Akal: The Almighty's bounty is infinite. If more people are coming just for langar, then they are also spending time with Sadh Sangat too (even if it is just in langar). So just that contact might turn them towards Sikhi. And Sikhs are not supposed to turn away ANYONE from langar.

Sat Sri Akal: Bhai Randhir Singh Sahib recognized Sants. He had met Sant Attar Singh, who he thought to be a perfect human. If anyone states that Sants cannot exist in a human form, then they are not reading history of people like Sant Attar Singh, Baba Deep Singh, Baba Buddha.

Sat Sri Akal: Well...there was Mai Bhago (Mata Bhag Kaur). Most people remember her to be the one who turned patits back towards the Guru's service. But she had also reached a high level of enlightenment also. You might find this link interesting, which discusses the Great Sikh Women. http://www.sikhi.org.uk/articles/files/TheGreatSikhWomen.pdf

Sat Sri Akal: Here's an article that gives some info on the question: I found this article at: http://www.snsm.org.my/library/articles/khalsa_insignia.htm _________________________________________________________ Khalsa Insignia & Nishan Sahib by Pashaura Singh, Ph.D. Asian Languages and Cultures Assistant Professor of Sikh Studies 3070 Frieze Building Office: (734) 763-7889 University of Michigan Fax: (734) 647-0157 Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285 About two decades ago, I wrote one article on the origins of our Sikh Flag (*Nishan Sahib*) in Punjabi, *Dharam Dhuja Fahirant Sada* ("The Flag of Faith is eternally flying") which appeared in *PANCHBATI SANDESH*, Vol. 2, No. 2 (!979), a quarterly journal of Dr. Balbir Singh Sahitya Kendra, Dehra Dun. (This jouranl is now published under the auspices of Punjabi University, Patiala). I could not find that article from my own "well orgainzed shelves" (?) now. Perhaps that is lying in some boxes of old magzines and books. When I wrote that article I was bubbling with enthusiasm and used to spend a great deal of time on research. What I am going to write here is just the main points from my memory. The first Sikh Flag was unfurled by Guru Amar Das at the completion of Bauli Sahib at Goindval Sahib on the bank of River Beas. Its color was white. The evidence for this comes from Bhat Kirat's Savayyie ("Panegyrics in Praise of the Guru") from the Guru Granth Sahib: *dhavalu dhuja seti baikunth bina* "[Whose] white pennent is flapping on the bank of heavenly abode" (AG, p. 1393) This flag was meant to invite people to visit the Guru's place, share the common meal in the community kitchen (*Langar*) and have audience with the Guru. Even Emperor Akabr was attracted to visit the Guru and share the meal with commoners. The tradition of raising the flag continued at Ramdaspur (Amritsar) through the periods of Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan. Bhat Mathura bears witness in the following verse: *phuni dharam dhuja fahirant sada agh punj tarang nivaran kau// mathura jan jani kahi jia sachu su aur kichhu na bicharan kau//* "[Master's] flag of righteousness ever waves to destroy the waves of swarms of sins. Mathura has stated this truth after knowing the facts, there is nothing else for deliberation." (AG, p. 404) We must remember that by the time of Guru Arjan the town of Ramdaspur was thickly populated. There is lot of evidence in this regard in the Sikh scripture. By this time the socio-religious community of Guru Nanak's followers had become a "state within a state." In his compositions Guru Arjan claims to have established the rule of justice and humility (*halemi raj*): "There is no other place like the beautiful and thickly populated Ramdaspur. The ideal rule of Rama (*ramraj*) prevails in Ramdaspur due to the grace of the Guru. No *jizya* (tax on non-Muslims) is levied, nor any fine, there is no collector of taxes." (AG, pp. 430 and 817) Evidently the administration of the town was in the hands of Guru Arjan. In a certain sense, Ramdaspur was an autonomous town in the context and framework of the Mughal rule of Emperor Akbar. The Sikh flag was still white, perhaps with the symbol of "Ikk Onkar" on it. It was also the envy of Mughal authorities. To a large extent, the liberal policy of Emperor Akbar's reign provided the overall context for the peaceful evolution of the Sikh Panth, but within eight months of Akbar's death in October 1605, Guru Arjan was executed by the orders of the new emperor, Jahangir, on May 30, 1606. For the Sikh communtiy, Guru Arjan's death was the first martyrdom. Guru Hargobind bore two swords of "temporal and spritual authority"(*Miri and Piri*) and fought four battles against the Mughal authorites. During the warfare the fighting troops need their flag, but the color of the Sikh flag had now become "saffron", the symbol of sacrifice. Perhaps the two swords were also displayed on these flags, along with the symbol of "Ikk Oankar". The Sikh doctrine had certainly evolved by this time. Guru Hargobind hoisted a flag at the completion of the Akal Takhat. The flag was called *Akal Dhuja* ("the Timeless Flag") or *Satguru Ka Nishan* ("Standard of the Guru"). It became part of the Miri-Piri doctrine of the Guru. After four skirmishes with the Mughal authorities, Guru Hargobind established a new Sikh center at Kiratpur Sahib. The Sikh army was maintained by him and his successors. During the period of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikh armies on the march had the Sikh standard carried in front by standard-bearers (*Nishanchis*). The weapons, the double-edged-sword, the standards, the *Nagaras* ("Victory Drums") and martial literature were all part and parcel of Sikh life at Anandpur Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh used to sign at the head of the letters of his command (*Hukam-names*) by inscribing either one sword or two swords, along with the symbol of "Ikk Oankar" and his blessing (See *HUKAMNAME*, published by Dr Ganda Singh. The Khalsa insignia had not yet come into being. All the Sikhs were required to wear "five weapons" (*panj hathiar*) as part of the Khalsa dress. Guru Gobind Singh had declared *Deg Tegh Fateh* ("Victory of the Cooking Vessel and the Sword", signifying the ideals of "magnanimity and justice") as the ideal of the Khalsa (*degh tegh jagg mahi dou chalai*). This ideal became part of Banda Singh Bahadur's seal and coin (*dego tegho fateh nusrat bedrang//jafat az Nanak fateh Guru Gobind Singh*). During the eighteenth-century *Deg Tegh Fateh* was the popular slogan of the marching bands of the Khalsa. The symbols of a "Sword or Sabre", "a cooking vessel" and a "*katar*-dagger were inscribed on the Khalsa Flags (*Nishan Sahibs*). The *Chaupa Singh Rahit-nama* (1740-65) specifically mentions: *JAS DEGH DA RAJ TEGH DA* ("Munificence earns praise in the world, the right to rule is won by the Sword"). *Deg Tegh Fateh* became part of Sikh congregational prayer (*Ardas*). The Flag on the top of Harmandir Sahib was first installed by Sardar Jhanda Singh of Bhangi Missal in 1771. Let me now come to three most important colours of the Khalsa dress and the Nishan Sahibs. Here we can rely on the observations of early Europeans who came in contact with the Khalsa bands. The observations made by the early Europeans on the contemporary Sikh institutions, manners, dress and customs offer valuable information on the nature of Sikh society late in the eighteenth century. For the most part they seem to have recorded what they actually saw in their personal encounters with the troops of the Khalsa army. Thus from the historical point of view their accounts constitute an independent witness to the Khalsa tradition in the last quarter of the eighteenth century. However, one must use them cautiously because their authors "brought to bear on the subject of their writing the prejudices of a diverse culture." For instance, when Major James Browne writes about the dark blue dress of the Sikh soldiers that "gives them when collected in large bodies together, a very dismal appearance", he is imposing his own cultural values on entirely a different people having different cultural meaning of the colour of their dress. Ganda Singh's apologetic comment on Browne's observation runs as follows: Guru Gobind Singh never ordered his Sikhs to put on the dress of any particular colour. The zealous Nihangs however patronized the dark blue colour used by the Guru during his escape from Machhiwara. (*Early European Accounts*, p. 17) Here Ganda Singh is trying to explain away the significance of the dark blue colour by associating it with the zealous Nihangs who may be following the tradition of Guru Gobind Singh. His primary concern is to make the point that blue colour is not really the part of Sikh orthodoxy. For the Khalsa Sikhs, however, the significance of deep blue colour lies in the "highest ideals of character" (*nili siahi kada karani*, AG, p. 16) and the "deepest urges in the life of spirituality," as the blue sky reflects the highest horizon and the blue ocean stands for the depth. George Forster encountered two bands of Sikh troops on his journey, and he makes the following observation: In this matter I speak from a personal knowledge, having in the course of my journey seen two of their parties, each of which amounted to about two hundred horsemen. They were clothed in white vests, and their arms were preserved in good order: the accoutrement, consisting of primary horns and ammunition pouches, were chiefly covered with European scarlet cloth, and ornamented with gold lace. (*A Journey From Bengal To England*, Vol. I, 1798, p. 288) In the footnote, Forster elaborates on the meaning of "white vests" as "a long calico gown, having close body and sleeves, with a white skirt." Here one encounters Khalsa soldiers wearing white dress with their usual weaponry. In Sikh understanding, the colour white stands for "purity" in life. White dress has always been a part of the Sikh tradition. There is still another observer John Griffiths, who wrote about "Dominions of the Seeks" in his letter of 17th February, 1794 to Mr. Alexander Adamson. He comments on the dress of the Sikhs as follows: They sometimes wear yellow, but the prevailing Colour of their Cloaths is deep blue; They make their Turbans capaciously large, over which they frequently wear a piece of pliable Iron Chain or Net work. (*Early European Accounts*, p. 92) Here the author mentions yellow, along with the prominent deep blue, as the popular colours of the Khalsa dress. It is the colour of sacrifice in Sikh mores. To tie a large conspicuous turban with a piece of iron chain or network is still a popular tradition among the Nihang Singhs of Punjab. It may have served the purpose of saving the head from the blow of a weapon during the warfare. It is not surprising to see Nihang Singhs carrying the small insignias of five weapons underneath their turbans even today. The point to be noted here is that each European observer is speaking about a particular group of Khalsa soldiers whom he encountered. It is quite possible that his observation may reflect a partial view, based on an imperfect perception. One must be careful not to accept the observation of one author as a general statement on the Khalsa tradition late in the eighteenth century. The colour of the military uniform is a matter of necessity for the sake of identification during warfare. Different bands of the Khalsa soldiers may have adopted different colours for better organization. However, it may be noted that the three colours - deep blue, white and yellow - mentioned by the Europeans have always been traditionally associated with the Khalsa dress. Thus we have a first-hand independent witness to the "weapons and garments" (*shastar bastar*) traditonally worn by the Khalsa Sikhs in the eighteenth century. Today, we regard Nihang Singhs as a marginal group within the larger Sikh Panth. In the eighteenth-century, they were the most dominant group and represented the Khalsa orthodoxy. One must not underestimate their nature and contribution to the Sikh Panth. They have preserved the original Khalsa tradition up till now. The Nishan Sahibs of Nihang Gurdwaras are of blue colour even today. During the Sikh Kingdom, Sardar Desa Singh Majithia whom Maharja Ranjit Singh had entrusted with the management of Darbar Sahib, Amritsar, replaced the two wooden flagposts with steel ones in 1820 in front of Akal Takhat, covered with gilded copper sheets. These two flagstaffs were damaged in a storm in 1841 and replaced with new ones. Now let us look at the evidence from European paintings of Sikh Darbar. The Nihang dress may be seen in William Carpenter's painting made in 1854 (Victoria and Albert Museum). This is reproduced in Sardar Patwant Singh's book *THE GOLDEN TEMPLE* (1988) on page 32. The Khalsa insignia still has not come onto being. The Khanda and swords, along with other weaponary are part of the Nihang turban. These styles of turbans may be seen even today among the Nihang Singhs. The most significant woodcut of the Harimandir Sahib (1870) is available in Lockwood Kipling Collection at Victoria and Albert Museum. This is also reporoduced by Sardar Patwant Singh in the same book on page 79. One must look carefully the insignia of Nishan Sahibs at the Golden Temple and the Akal Takhat. The insignia in both cases carries the following symbols: a cooking vessel, a *kattar*-dagger and a sabre. This was the tradition since the eighteenth century. The uniformity and coherence in the Sikh tradition came as a result of the Singh Sabha movement. They presented the Sikh tradition as a well-defined system. The modern insignia of the Khalsa which comprises a vertical double-edged-sword over a quoit (*chakkar*) with two crossed sabres (*kirpans*) below the quoit, came into being in the beginning of the twentieth century. One can look at the gates of Patiala House in New Delhi, near India Gate, where the modern Khalsa insignia is engraved at each door in the most balanced proportions. If one looks at them carefully, the lenth of the double-edged-sword, the *Chakkar* and the two *Kirpans* is equal. I have a photograph of this Khalsa insignia with me which I took when I was teaching at Guru Harkrishan Public School, New Delhi in the seventies. The Patiala House was built in the early twentieth-century when most of the New Delhi buildings were being built. The Khalsa insignia had already come into being. It was the first decades of the twentieth-century when even the standard pagination of the Guru Granth Sahib (1430 pages) came into being as a result of printing uniformity. It was this time when the modern Khalsa insignia was created. Before conclusion, let me make a brief comment on the "two Nishan Sahibs" in front of the Akal Takhat. They represent a unique phenomena in the history of world religions. If one carefully looks at them, the Nishan Sahib on the side of the Golden Temple is slightly higher than the Nishan Sahib of the Akal Takhat side. Why is it so? Because the Nishan Sahib of "spiritual sovereignity" (*Piri*) is higher than the Nishan Sahib of "temporal sovereignity" (*Miri*). If one carefully looks at the two swords of Guru Hargobind, preserved at the Akal Takhat, the sword of Piri is 40 inches long, while the sword of Miri is 38 inches long. Why? Because Gur Hargobind had intended that "spiritual aspect" must always be stronger than the "secular or politcial" aspect. If that is maintained then a person would never become arrogant or corrupt with the achievement of any political power. Tradition records that Guru Hargobind never used his "Sword of Piri" in the battlefield when his "Sword of Miri" was broken during the fight. Why? He proclaimed: "The Sword of Piri should never be used as a weapon in the political fights." What happens when religion is used as a weapon in the political field? The answer to this question comes from contemporary history. When religion becomes a weapn in the hands of fundamentalists, then innocent lives are destroyed, be it Giani Partap Singh, the Jathedar of the Akal Takhat; be it the most articulate Sikh woman, Bibi Rajinder Kaur, the daughter of "the Jewel of the Panth", Master Tara Singh; or be it a Sikh musician (*Ragi*) Bhai Bakhshish Singh. If religion becomes the weapon in the hands of an Indian state then political will is lost and "Operation Blue Star" and other 1984-events become a reality. When religion becomes a weapon in the hands of RSS, the survival of minorities is at stake. When religion becomes the agenda of the most powerful governement in the world, then right-wing politics enters into American life. Then, what is the meaning of the doctrine of Miri and Piri? Isn't religion and politics combined in Sikh thought? To find answers to these questions, look carefully at the two Nishan Sahibs in front of the Akal Takhat. They stand together in parallel lines, reaching out to the highest ideals of Sikh thought in the sky. They are distinct, but not combined together. But they are inter-connected with the "Khalsa Insignia" (*chakkarakar*), with the symbols of "Ikk Oankar", the "two-edged sword", "the quoit" and the "two swords" that provide balance to the Sikh philosophy. The spiritual and secular aspects of life must go hand in hand (like parallel Nishan Sahib) and sustain each other. No one aspect (either Miri or Piri) should try to dominate the other to create imbalance in life. The spiritual aspect should always be higher than the worldly achievement. If the Sikhs truly understand this doctrine, no worldly power on this earth can defeat them. They will always stand tall (like Nishan Sahibs) in the face of adversities. After the two hours of early morning, let me stop here. The Memorial Day Weekend inspires us to be prepared for sacrifice. I have to go now. I would humbly request the forum members to add to this missive their own thoughts. Please forgive me for any mistakes or misunderstanding of Sikh doctrine. I will welcome constructive feedback.

Sat Sri Akal: When a person keeps their kesh and ties a dastaar, they start to get questions asked of them. They themselves might even ask questions, like "Why do I keep my hair long" or "Why do I tie a dastaar". Eventually these questions direct a person to find answers, answers which are written in Gurbani and Sikh History. As a person reads more and more about the religion, they attain knowledge and pride in their religion. Their prespective of seeing the world changes and their personal image changes with it. Some people simply call it a turban...I see it as the key to a new path.

Sat Sri Akal: Khalsitan Sahib, one point I would like to make. There was only one jyot present in those ten bodies. That is told to Sikhs in Bachittar Natak. So the jyot in Guru Nanak Sahib was the same jyot in Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. So that one jyot was responsible for writing all of the Gurbani written by the Guru Sahiban's physical bodies. Text of the Bachittar Natak with relevant quote can be read at: http://www.sikhs.org/transl9.htm

Sat Sri Akal: N30 S!NGH Ji, this Nark-inder claims that he has visited "Paar-Brahm Khand" - supposedly a domain that even the Gurus were not "worthy" of reaching. And yeah, this is the guy who has mutated the Fateh. His day will come...soon...

Sat Sri Akal: I would reallr REALLY recommend reading a book (it is only 34 pages long) called "SIKHISM: AN ORIGINAL, DISTINCT, REVEALED AND COMPLETE RELIGION" by HARNAM SINGH SHAN. This book can be downloaded at: http://www.sikhi.org.uk/articles/files/sikhidistincta4.pdf This book lays out the conventional thoughts that Sikhism origionates from Hinduism or Islam, and the very prevalent view that Sikhism is a combination of Hinduism and Islam. Then it proceeds to dismantle that viewpoint in an organized and throough fashion. Last, it outlines what traits Sikhism has that makes it a distinct religion. Also, go to this link: http://www.sikhs.org/religion.htm This link has a comparative analysis of Sikhism with the other faiths of the world, showing similarities and differences of Sikhism with the other religions. A good read. If there are specific arguements that the made in favor of Sikhism being a hand-me-down of other religions that you would want discussed, please post them here so they can be addressed.

Sat Sri Akal: A very accurate portrayal of the Sikh spirit. I think that there is a quote in Gurbani that says, "Sabh Ko Meet Hum Apan Keena, Hum Sabhna Key Sajjan" (can't give reference...Sikhitothemax is down ) that reflects the same sentiment. Similarly, a Sikh will go out of their way to aid even his/her enemy if they are in trouble and seek help. Thanks for the post!

Sat Sri Akal: Radhasoamis were origionally not of the Punjab, or even turban wearing. It is when one former Sikh went to the Radhasoami Dera (in Agra, I believe) that it took on a "turbaned-Guru" look and came to the Punjab. And by the way, Radhasoami is not one group. Within this title lie 36+ separate deras, each with separate Gurus and claims to being true Radhasoamis.

Sat Sri Akal: OOOOOh....rhymes...let me try: If you're a Sikh and you know it, tie a dastaar, If you're a Sikh and you know it, keep the panj kakkar, If you're a Sikh and you know it, put a Khanda on your car, If you're a Sikh and you know it, show Gurbani some pyarr, If you're a Sikh and you know it, know how to use a kirpan and a talwaar. How I do???