ipledgeblue

lol there are no words in gurbani that mean "God". If Gurus used the abrahamic term "God" in gurbani then they would easily be able to prove any bani was written by Britishers or Christians

It is quite clear the author lacks knowledge of Khalsa traditions. Also we must campaign in the UK to stop serving undercover Halal meat!! And unfortunately, due to these problems, we may have to start unofficial jhatka association for sikhs, kshatriya and hindus....

Well in SV we just absolutely laugh and make fun of some of the type of people posting in this thread. As for the Doaba thing, even in UK, Doaba, Majha and Malwa still speak out own punjabi dialects and still bring have our different thinking, including being backwards and forwards in different behaviors!!

Yes but these cry babies and whingers really don't give off the sikhi or Khalsa vibe, I shall repeat again, they belong on sikhsangat with the rest of the cry-babies not on sikhawareness! Imagine if the khalsa behaved in this manner, always crying about peoples cultures and backgrounds. When the Khalsa had a problem, they actually done something, for example against the Mughals, Afghans and even British! But sulking on the internet like fudus, please; like I can take people like this seriously... I train shastarvidiya with nihangs, I don't need this nonsense!

Didn't Guru ji used to make people eat langar before giving them the chance to have his darshan? (eg Guru ji and Emperor Akbar)

and are there banis that were "added on" ?

Anyway what has all this buq buq regurgitated bakwass got to do with marrying cousins? And this cry-baby parchar is really bringing our community down!!

Can anyone explain to me about the final page that chats about the panj kakkay. Was it added later on?

Hmm I should stop working in an office...

How can we preserve Khalsa when most of the punjabi "amrit-dhari" parcharaks do nindya of ancient khalsa traditions and maryada, even SGPC doesn't respect these! There aren't that many nihangs around punjab to preserve Khalsa, only mostly see pakhandis!

hmm ok, but some amrit-dharis do so much nindya of Dasam bani. Yesh I think Nihangs are embarrassed of the mainstream, so to disdtance themselves they use such terms, or perhaps they used these terms originally? Need more knwoledge/gyaan...

lol I stuck 2 fingers at these kinda girls a long time ago! They don't like paghs they can buzz off. But if they say it to my face, then they gonna get a rude awakening. BE RUDE TO RUDE GIRLS is what I am gonna say!

Well by tradition I would be a Doaba Jatt. So, my traditions and language slighlty differ from even jatts from Majha and Malwa. And then also as a jatt in the pend, our culture differed from other families and residents living in the pend, it sill differs even now, I was in the pend just a few years ago. Jatts, tarkhans, and some other backgrounds give more preference to gurdwara than those of poorer backgrounds seem to prefer Mandir. Other cultural differences can be seen during collective functions such as weddings. Also even langauages, where we use persianised forms with letters like "sh", the poorer backgrounds will pronounce words differently with a "s" instead. In bani you can view words that are used by poorer backgrounds in Punjab which are also used in non-punjabi regions. Of course, collectively, the punjabi pendoos culture differs greatly from the bhaiayas living on the outskirts of the pends. Even the culture between pendoos and sharieyaas is different, where pendoos are more reserved and careful about children and jawan teens/adults going out and getting corrupted or getting in the wrong crowd (Although this is what's happening now anyway, uneducated as well as college goers). Also being jatt doesn't make me superior, only as an individual collectively with what I learn from my culture, traditions, sanskar, dharam, as well as what I learn from society and even TV + internet, can I become a higher thinker. Instead of crying and sulking about others backgrounds, we should become high thinkers. I think theres something in bani about that as well. Even "Mann jeetey jag jeetey" comes to mind. Look at yourselves before looking at other is what I can say!... ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥ सवैया ॥ SWAYYA ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥ छत्री को पूत हौ बामन को नहि कै तपु आवत है जु करो ॥ अरु अउर जंजार जितो ग्रहि को तुहि तिआग कहा चित ता मै धरो ॥ I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you; ਅਬ ਰੀਝ ਕੈ ਦੇਹੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਜੋਊ ਹਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰ ਜੋਰ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਜਬ ਆਉ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋ ॥੨੪੮੯॥ अब रीझ कै देहु वहै हम कउ जोऊ हउ बिनती कर जोर करो ॥ जब आउ की अउध निदान बनै अतिही रन मै तब जूझ मरो ॥२४८९॥ Whatever request I am making with my folded hands, O Lord ! kindly be graceful and bestow this boon on me that when ever my end comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.2489. _________________ ਚੌਪਈ ॥ चौपई ॥ CHAUPAI ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਨ ਦੇਖੀਐ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਐਸੇ ਮਤ ਕੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਤਾ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੦॥ शंकर बरन प्रजा सभ होई ॥ छत्री जगत न देखीऐ कोई ॥ एक एक ऐसे मत कै है ॥ जा ते प्रापत सूद्रता ह्वै है ॥१०॥ The subjects will become hybrid and no Kshatriya will be seen in the whole world; all will do such things that they will all become Shudras.10. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਮਤ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਹਰਿ ਕਰ ॥ ਚਲਿ ਹੈ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤ ਘਰ ਘਰ ॥ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਕੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਗਹਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਰਹਿ ਹੈ ॥੧੧॥ हिंदू तुरक मत दुहूं प्रहरि कर ॥ चलि है भिंन भिंन मत घर घर ॥ एक एक के मंत्र न गहि है ॥ एक एक के संग न रहि है ॥११॥ Hinduism and Islam will be relinquished and in every home there will be diverse beliefs; no one will listen to the ideas of another one; on one will remain with anyone.11. ਆਪ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਨੀਚ ਊਚ ਕਹ ਸੀਸ ਨ ਨੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਇਕ ਇਕ ਧਾਮਾ ॥ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਠ ਹੈ ਰਾਮਾ ॥੧੨॥ आप आप पारब्रहम कहै है ॥ नीच ऊच कह सीस न नै है ॥ एक एक मत इक इक धामा ॥ घर घर होइ बैठ है रामा ॥१२॥ All will proclaim themselves as Lord and no younger one will bow before the elder one; in every house will be born such people who will declare themselves as Ram.12. ਪੜਿ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਭੂਲ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਪਕਰ ਹੈ ਪਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਜਵਨ ਕਰਿ ਲਹਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਕਹ ਗੋਬਰਾਗਨ ਮੋ ਦਹਿ ਹੈ ॥੧੩॥ पड़ि है कोई न भूल पुराना ॥ कोऊ न पकर है पान कुराना ॥ बेद कतेब जवन करि लहि है ॥ ताकह गोबरागन मो दहि है ॥१३॥ No one will study Puranas even by mistake and will not catch the holy Quran in his hand; he, who will catch the Vedas and Katebs, he will be killed by burning him in the fire of cowdung.13. ਚਲੀ ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਾਜਾ ਧਰਮ ਛਾਡ ਰਜਧਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਮਤ ਚਲਾ ॥ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਉਡ ਟਲਾ ॥੧੪॥ चली पाप की जगत कहानी ॥ भाजा धरम छाड रजधानी ॥ भिंन भिंन घर घर मत चला ॥ या ते धरम भरम उड टला ॥१४॥ The story of sin will become prevalent in the whole world and the dharma will flee from the hearts of the people; there will be different beliefs in homes which cause the dharma and love to fly away.14. ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਐਸਉ ਚੈਹੈ ॥ ਜਾਤੇ ਸਕਲ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਹੁਇ ਜੈਹੈ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ॥੧੫॥ एक एक मत ऐसउ चैहै ॥ जाते सकल सूद्र हुइ जैहै ॥ छत्री ब्रहमन रहा न कोई ॥ शंकर बरन प्रजा सभ होई ॥१५॥ Such notions will become prevalent that all will become Shudras; there will be no Kshatriyas and Brahmins and all the subjects will become hybrid.15. ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬਸਿ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੀ ॥ ਬਈਸ ਨਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰਨੀ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬੈਸਾਨੀ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਾਨੀ ॥੧੬॥ सूद्र धाम बसि हैं ब्रहमनी ॥ बईस नार होइ है छ्त्रनी ॥ बसि है छ्त्र धाम बैसानी ॥ ब्रहमन ग्रहि इसत्री सूद्रानी ॥१६॥ The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16. ਏਕ ਧਰਮ ਪਰ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਨ ਚਲ ਹੈ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਦੋਊ ਮਤ ਦਲ ਹੈ ॥ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਏਕ ਪੈਂਡ ਚਲਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥੧੭॥ एक धरम पर प्रजा न चल है ॥ बेद कतेब दोऊ मत दल है ॥ भिंन भिंन मत घर घर होई ॥ एक पैंड चलहै नही कोई ॥१७॥ The subjects will not follow only one religion, and there will be disobedience to both the scriptures of Hinduism and Semitic religion; various religions will be prevelant in various homes and none will follow the one and the same path.17. __________________ ਗੀਤਾ ਮਾਲਤੀ ਛੰਦ ॥ गीता मालती छंद ॥ GITA MALTI STANZA ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤੋ ਘਰੋ ਘਰ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਚਲਾਇ ਹੈ ॥ ਐਂਡ ਬੈਂਡ ਫਿਰੈ ਸਭੈ ਸਿਰ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਨ ਨਯਾਇ ਹੈ ॥ भिंन भिंन मतो घरो घर एक एक चलाइ है ॥ ऐंड बैंड फिरै सभै सिर एक एक न नयाइ है ॥ When various religions will prevail in every home and all will walk in their pride and none of them will bow before any other; ਪੁਨ ਅਉਰ ਅਉਰ ਨਏ ਨਏ ਮਤ ਮਾਸ ਮਾਸ ਉਚਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰਨ ਪੀਰ ਕੌ ਨਹੀ ਭੂਲ ਪੂਜਨ ਜਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥੧੮॥ पुन अउर अउर नए नए मत मास मास उचांहिगे ॥ देव पितरन पीर कौ नही भूल पूजन जांहिगे ॥१८॥ There will be the birth of new religions every year and the people even by mistake will not worship gods, manes and pirs.18. ਦੇਵ ਪੀਰ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਕੈ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਰ ਆਪ ਕਹਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਨਰ ਭਾਂਤ ਭਾਂਤਨ ਏਕ ਕੋ ਜੁਰ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਉਡਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥ देव पीर बिसार कै परमेस्र आप कहांहिगे ॥ नर भांत भांतन एक को जुर एक एक उडांहिगे ॥ Forgetting the gods and Pirs, the people will call themselves God; several kinds of people will get together and spread various types of rumours; ਏਕ ਮਾਸ ਦੁਮਾਸ ਲੌ ਅਧ ਮਾਸ ਲੌ ਤ ਚਲਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਬੂਬਰ ਪਾਨ ਜਿਉ ਮਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਂਹਿਗੇ ॥੧੯॥ एक मास दुमास लौ अध मास लौ त चलांहिगे ॥ अंत बूबर पान जिउ मत आप ही मिट जांहिगे ॥१९॥ These new religions will continue for one or two month or even half a month and will ultimately end themselves lie the bubbles of water.19. ਬੇਦ ਅਉਰ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੇ ਦੋ ਦੂਖ ਕੈ ਮਤ ਡਾਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਹਿਤ ਆਪਨੇ ਤਿਹ ਠਉਰ ਭੀਤਰ ਜੰਤ੍ਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਉਚਾਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ बेद अउर कतेब के दो दूख कै मत डार हैं ॥ हित आपने तिह ठउर भीतर जंत्र मंत्र उचार हैं ॥ Finding faults will the religions of Vedas and Katebs, they will be forsaken and the people will recite mantras and yantras according to their onw interest; ਮੁਖ ਬੇਦ ਅਉਰ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੇ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਮ ਲੇਵ ਨ ਦੇਹਗੇ ॥ ਕਿਸਹੂੰ ਨ ਕਉਡੀ ਪੁੰਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਕਿਉ ਹੀ ਦੇਹਗੇ ॥੨੦॥ मुख बेद अउर कतेब के कोई नाम लेव न देहगे ॥ किसहूं न कउडी पुंन ते कबहूं न किउ ही देहगे ॥२०॥ People will not be allowed ot utter the names of Vedas and Katebs and no one will give even a cowrie in charity.20. ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੈ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਕੈ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਦ੍ਰਬ ਦੇਖਤ ਛੋਡ ਹੈ ਲੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਘਾਰ ਕੈ ॥ पाप करम करै जहां तहां धरम करम बिसार कै ॥ नही द्रब देखत छोड है लै पुत्र मित्र संघार कै ॥ Forgetting the actions of Dharma, the sinful actions will be committed and the money will be procured even by killing the son or friend; ਏਕ ਨੇਕ ਉਠਾਇ ਹੈ ਮਤਿ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਦਿਨੰ ਦਿਨਾ ॥ ਫੋਕਟੇ ਧਰਮੰ ਸਭੈ ਕਲਿ ਕੇਵਲੰ ਪ੍ਰਭਣੰ ਬਿਨਾ ॥੨੧॥ एक नेक उठाइ है मति भिंन भिंन दिनं दिना ॥ फोकटे धरमं सभै कलि केवलं प्रभणं बिना ॥२१॥ New religions will arise always and these religions will be hollow without the name of the Lord.21. ਏਕ ਦਿਵਸ ਚਲੈ ਕੋਊ ਮਤ ਦੋਇ ਦਿਉਸ ਚਲਾਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਜੋਰ ਕ੍ਰੋਰ ਕਰੋਰ ਕੈ ਦਿਨ ਤੀਸਰੈ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ॥ एक दिवस चलै कोऊ मत दोइ दिउस चलाहिगे ॥ न्रिप जोर क्रोर करोर कै दिन तीसरै मिट जाहिगे ॥ Some religions will continue for one or two days and on the third day these religions taking birth on account of power will die their own death; ਪੁਨ ਅਉਰ ਅਉਰ ਉਚਾਹਗੇ ਮਤਣੋਗਤੰ ਚਤੁਰਥ ਦਿਨੰ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਫੋਕਟਣੋ ਸਭੰ ਇਕ ਕੇਵਲੰ ਕਲਿਨੰ ਬਿਨੰ ॥੨੨॥ पुन अउर अउर उचाहगे मतणोगतं चतुरथ दिनं ॥ धरम फोकटणो सभं इक केवलं कलिनं बिनं ॥२२॥ Again on the fourth day new religions will arise, but they wil all be without the idea of salvation.22. ਛੰਦ ਬੰਦ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਨਰ ਨਾਰ ਨਿੱਤ ਨਏ ਕਰਹਿ ॥ ਪੁਨ ਜੰਤ੍ਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਨਹੀ ਤੰਤ੍ਰਲਾਤ ਕਛੂ ਡਰਹਿ ॥ छंद बंद जहां तहां नर नार नि्त नए करहि ॥ पुन जंत्र मंत्र जहां तहां नही तंत्रलात कछू डरहि ॥ The men and women will perform the works of deceit here and there; many mantras, yantras and tantras will spring up; ਧਰਮ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਉਤਾਰ ਕੈ ਰਨ ਛੋਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਭਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਬੈਸ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਗਹਿ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਆਹਵ ਗਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥੨੩॥ धरम छत्र उतार कै रन छोर छत्री भाज हैं ॥ सूद्र बैस जहां तहां गहि असत्र आहव गाज हैं ॥२३॥ Leaving the canopies of religions, the Kshatriyas will run away from fighting, and Shudras and Vaishyas will catch hold of weapons and arms and thunder in the battlefield.23. ਛਤ੍ਰੀਆਨੀ ਛੋਰ ਕੈ ਨਰ ਨਾਹ ਨੀਚਨ ਰਾਵ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਜ ਰਾਜ ਅਉਰ ਸਮਾਜ ਕੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਨੀਚ ਰਾਨੀ ਜਾਵ ਹੈ॥ छत्रीआनी छोर कै नर नाह नीचन राव है ॥ तज राज अउर समाज को ग्रहि नीच रानी जाव है॥ Leaving the functions of Kshatriyas, the kings will perform disgraceful tasks; the queens, leaving the kings, mix up with the low social orders; ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਸੁਤਾ ਭਏ ਰਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸੂਦ੍ਰੀ ਹੋਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਬੇਸਿਯਾ ਬਾਲ ਬਿਲੋਕ ਕੈ ਮੁਨਰਾਜ ਧੀਰਜ ਖੋਹਿਗੇ ॥੨੪॥ सूद्र ब्रहमसुता भए रत ब्रहम सूद्री होहिगे ॥ बेसिया बाल बिलोक कै मुनराज धीरज खोहिगे ॥२४॥ Shudras will be absorbed with the Brahmins girls and the Brahmins will also do like wise; seeing the daughters of the prostitutes. The great sages will lose their forbearance.24. ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਉਡਯੋ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਪਗ ਪਗ ਹੋਹਿੰਗੇ ॥ ਨਿਜ ਸਿੱਖ ਨਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੋ ਸਿਖ ਸੋਹਿੰਗੇ ॥ धरम भरम उडयो जहां तहां पाप पग पग होहिंगे ॥ निज सि्ख नार गुरू रमै गुर दारा सो सिख सोहिंगे ॥ The honour of religions will fly away and there will be sinful acts at every step; he Gurus will enjoy the wives of their disciples and the disciples will absorb themselves with the wives of their Gurus; ਅਬਿਬੇਕ ਅਉਕ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਕੋ ਨ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੈਠ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਪੁਨ ਝੂਠ ਬੋਲ ਕਮਾਹਿੰਗੇ ਸਿਰ ਸਾਚ ਬੋਲ ਉਤਾਰ ਹੈਂ ॥੨੫॥ अबिबेक अउक बिबेक को न बिबेक बैठ बिचार हैं ॥ पुन झूठ बोल कमाहिंगे सिर साच बोल उतार हैं ॥२५॥ No attention will be paid to foolishness and wisdom and the head of the speaker of truth will be chopped; the falsehood will reign supreme.25. __________________ ਤਰ ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥ तर नराज छंद ॥ TAR NARAJ STANZA ਬਰਨ ਹੈ ਅਬਰਨ ਕੋ ॥ ਛਾਡਿ ਹਰਿ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਕੋ ॥੩੦॥ बरन है अबरन को ॥ छाडि हरि शरन को ॥३०॥ Castelessness will be the caste and all will forsake the refuge of the Lord.30. ਛਾਡ ਸਭ ਸਾਜ ਕੋ ॥ ਲਾਗ ਹੈ ਅਕਾਜ ਕੋ ॥੩੧॥ छाड सभ साज को ॥ लाग है अकाज को ॥३१॥ All the people will forsake good actions and will absorb themselves in wicked actions.31. ਤਯਾਗ ਹੈ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ॥ ਲਾਗ ਹੈ ਕਾਮ ਕੋ ॥੩੨॥ तयाग है नाम को ॥ लाग है काम को ॥३२॥ All of them will abandon the remembrance of the name of the Lord, and will remain absorbed in sexual enjoyment.32. ਲਾਜ ਕੌ ਛੋਰ ਹੈ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਮੁਖ ਮੋਰ ਹੈ ॥੩੩॥ लाज कौ छोर है ॥ दान मुख मोर है ॥३३॥ They will not feel shy (of the wicked acts) and will refrain from the bestowal of charity. 33 ਚਰਨ ਨਹੀ ਧਿਆਇ ਹੈ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਹੈ ॥੩੪॥ चरन नही धिआइ है ॥ दुशट गति पाइ है ॥३४॥ They will not meditate on the feet of the lord and only the tyrants will be hailed .34. ਨਰਕ ਕਹੁ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਪਛੁਤਾਹਿਗੇ ॥੩੫॥ नरक कहु जाहिगे ॥ अंत पछुताहिगे ॥३५॥ All of them will go to hell and untimately repent.35. ਧਰਮ ਕਹ ਖੋਹਿਗੇ ॥ ਪਾਪ ਕਰ ਰੋਹਿਗੇ ॥੩੬॥ धरम कह खोहिगे ॥ पाप कर रोहिगे ॥३६॥ All of them will ultimately repent on losing dharma.36. ਨਰਕ ਪੁਨ ਬਾਸ ਹੈ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਜਮ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਹੈ ॥੩੭॥ नरक पुन बास है ॥ त्रास जम त्रास है ॥३७॥ They will abide in hell and the messengers of Yama will frighten them.37. ___________________ ਨਗ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਛੰਦ ॥ नग सरूपी छंद ॥ NAG SAROOPI STANZA ਨ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਕੌ ਕਰੈਂ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੇ ਰਰੈਂ ॥ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਸੋ ਫਸੈ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਛਾਡ ਧਰਮਵਾ ਨਸੈ ॥੪੬॥ न धरम करम कौ करैं ॥ ब्रिथा कथा सुने ररैं ॥ कुकरम करम सो फसै ॥ सति छाड धरमवा नसै ॥४६॥ No one will perform the rituals enjoyed by religion and the people will quarrel amongst themselves in evil actions to such an extent that they will totally forsake the religion and truth.46. ਪੁਰਾਣ ਕਾਬਿ ਨਾ ਪੜੈਂ ॥ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਲੈ ਨ ਤੇ ਰੜੈਂ ॥ ਅਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਕੋ ਕਰੈਂ ॥ ਸੁ ਧਰਮ ਜਾਸ ਤੇ ਡਰੈਂ ॥੪੭॥ पुराण काबि ना पड़ैं ॥ कुरान लै न ते रड़ैं ॥ अधरम करम को करैं ॥ सु धरम जास ते डरैं ॥४७॥ They will not study Puranas and Epics and will also not read the holy Quran; they will perform such acts of adharma, that even dharma will also feel frightened.47. ਧਰਾਕਿ ਵਰਣਤਾ ਭਈ ॥ ਸੁ ਭਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੀ ਗਈ ॥ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਨਯੋ ਮਤੰ ॥ ਚਲੇ ਭੂਅੰ ਜਥਾ ਤਥੰ ॥੪੮॥ धराकि वरणता भई ॥ सु भरम धरम की गई ॥ ग्रिहं ग्रिहं नयो मतं ॥ चले भूअं जथा तथं ॥४८॥ The whole earth will assume only one caste (of sin) and the trust in religion will be finished; there will be new sects in every home and the people will adopt only misconduct.48. ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਨਏ ਮਤੰ ॥ ਭਈ ਧਰੰ ਨਈ ਗਤੰ ॥ ਅਧਰਮ ਰਾਜਤਾ ਲਈ ॥ ਨਿਕਾਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇਸ ਦੀ ॥੪੯॥ ग्रिहं ग्रिहं नए मतं ॥ भई धरं नई गतं ॥ अधरम राजता लई ॥ निकार धरम देस दी ॥४९॥ There will be now sects in every home; there will be new paths on the earth; there will be the reign of adharma and dharma will be exiled.49. ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ ਏਕ ਨਾ ਲਗੈ ॥ ਸੁਧਰਮ ਅਧਰਮ ਤੇ ਭਗੈ ॥ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰਯੰ ਜਗੰ ॥ ਸੁ ਕਰਮ ਪੰਖ ਕੈ ਭਗੰ ॥੫੦॥ प्रबोध एक ना लगै ॥ सुधरम अधरम ते भगै ॥ कुकरम प्रचुरयं जगं ॥ सु करम पंख कै भगं ॥५०॥ There will be no impact of knowledge on anyone and dharma will flee in the face of adharma; the wicked acts will be greatly propagated and dharma will fly away with wings.50. ਪ੍ਰਪੰਚ ਪੰਚ ਹੁਇ ਗਡਾ ॥ ਅਪ੍ਰਪੰਚ ਪੰਖ ਕੈ ਉਡਾ ॥ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਬਿਚਰਤੰ ਜਗੰ ॥ਸੁਕਰਮ ਸੁਭ੍ਰਮੰ ਭਗੰ ॥੫੧॥ प्रपंच पंच हुइ गडा ॥ अप्रपंच पंख कै उडा ॥ कुकरम बिचरतं जगं ॥सुकरम सुभ्रमं भगं ॥५१॥ The deceit will be appointed as judge and the simplicity will fly away; the whole world will be absorbed in vicious acts and the good acts will speed away.51. _________________

I am human first, but I also follow traditions, reet, rawaz, sanskar, culture, and respect my parents; things that uphold dharam. If someone wants to say I follow caste becayse of these dharmik things, so be it. Now they should ask themselves if they are following sanskar and dharam, or adharm? In one aspect, caste for indians can be used to describe the 4 varans; brahmin, kshatriya, shudr, vaishya. But caste can be just a label just like religion, race, nationality, etc etc.... Many people I have seen accusing others of following caste are usually proud and arrogant of being sikh or amrit-shak, and then there's people who also lack sanskar and dharam. I also doubt caste-accusers follow the following bani of Guru Gobind Singh properly anyway, instead picking and choosing parts of lines that suit them, pakhandis! ਕੋਊ ਭਇਓ ਮੁੰਡੀਆ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਕੋਊ ਜੋਗੀ ਭਇਓ ਕੋਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕੋਊ ਜਤੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਬੋ ॥ कोऊ भइओ मुंडीआ संनिआसी कोऊ जोगी भइओ कोऊ ब्रहमचारी कोऊ जती अनुमानबो ॥ Somebody became a Bairagi (recluse), somebody a Sannyasi (mendicant). Somebody a Yogi, somebody a Brahmchari (student observing celibacy) and someone is considered a celibate. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥ हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥ Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same. ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥ करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥ Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hinduism and Islam as an error and an illusion. ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥ एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥ Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85. Also people like dalsingh101 don't earn any respect from the kinda language he uses. No one is gonna take him seriously, because he has no respect in the way he chats. Not the way Guru da sikh talks. Dalsingh go to to Guru ji and learn how to speak in a respectable fashion! I don't see the point in you preaching until you do. Also you aren;t going to learn good language from hanging around sikhsangat forum. They show themselves as Guru deh sikh fighting for the panth but their hearts are black and hateful! kaleh dil waleh, nafrat waleh. Guru deh Singh edha deh nahi, annakh honi chaeedee bandeh wich. Ehme nee har walii chee chee karee da. Guru da sikh nyaney bachey wanguu chee chee nee karda din raat!!

Firstly if you all feel so passionate about this issue, go create another thread instead of ruining yet another thread. Have some control in your behaviour! Ok now explain to me how I have been casteist, and which caste have I been casteist against? lol decades, it will probably take less in the uk, I doubt there will be much caste or tribal affiliations left in the UK sikh community in the next decade or so. But then again, a lot of people will probably be mixing with people of other backgrounds that don't follow Guru jis at all, truly multi-ethnic. The message from Guru ji is about pride and arrogance, now where have I been proud and arrogant in my posts? Also, panj pyaray need to have some lineage to Guru Gobind ~Singh, otherwise we might as well start asking the satt sitaray or whataver that Sacha Sauda Baba's version is called! You don't just go ask randomn people and sects that nihang Khalsa calls pakhandis now do you? I think the self-proclaimed Guru thing is something you need to think about the kinda sects you are mentioning panj pyaray from! If they are not discussable, then how the heck have you made many pages of posts in this thread? What is pro-casteism, and who is guilty of hating on someone's caste in this thread? lol bahmanvadi? Now you are cracking me up haha For your information I even believe in Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth Sahib, I have parosa in Guru's bani, do you? And again I repeat, casteism against which individual, against which caste? lol carefully constructed caste structure? You are making me out to be some Brahmin now eh? I dunno about clinging onto caste, but I do know about clinging on to dharm, sanskar, reet, rawaj, respecting parents and ancestors is also dharam, the alternative is adharm! Sikhi + adharm = imcompatible! casteists agenda? haha Its not the "casteists" as you call them that are trying to make a Master Race, it it those that are against multiculturalism that are trying to make a master race, even twisting the words of Guru Gobind Singh to do it, ie hiding parts of this shabad (excuse the inaccurate translations, I got them off a website): ਕੋਊ ਭਇਓ ਮੁੰਡੀਆ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਕੋਊ ਜੋਗੀ ਭਇਓ ਕੋਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕੋਊ ਜਤੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਬੋ ॥ कोऊ भइओ मुंडीआ संनिआसी कोऊ जोगी भइओ कोऊ ब्रहमचारी कोऊ जती अनुमानबो ॥ Somebody became a Bairagi (recluse), somebody a Sannyasi (mendicant). Somebody a Yogi, somebody a Brahmchari (student observing celibacy) and someone is considered a celibate. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥ हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥ Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same. ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥ करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥ Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hinduism and Islam as an error and an illusion. ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥ एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥ Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85. Of course I am sikh. I haven;t said I follow caste or whatever. However I do follow sanskar, dharam, reet, rawaz. All these things help support dharam. This thread and another I have been accused of casteism, now I have no idea which caste I was casteist against?

lol did you just ask me to go ask panj piyaray from AKJ, ok I can take Damdami Taksal more seriously? If you had said Dal Khalsa panth I can take you more seriously. Yes, but my question was, where does Guru ji say it constantly, emphasis on constantly! I already know about that bani passage Also, do the posters here know the difference between acknowledgement and pride? Personal attacks only show insecurity. Why can people not be proud of being themselves instead of trying to knock others down? Is this what sikhi teaches?

The last person? The way you are getting all wound up makes you seem you are very interested! Please post the bani quotes that constantly say "No man should be proud of his caste" Yes why are people arguing against caste in a thread about cousin marriages? Its the same people over and over attacking again and again! They should start a caste thread instead of hijacking other threads like they always do!!!

Top supermarkets secretly sell halal: Sainsbury's, Tesco, Waitrose, and M&S don't tell us meat is ritually slaughtered By ABUL TAHER Last updated at 11:25 PM on 25th September 2010 Comments (150) Add to My Stories Share Most lamb imported from New Zealand by British supermarkets has been slaughtered according to Muslim law Britain's biggest supermarket chains are selling halal lamb and chicken without telling unsuspecting shoppers. Those stocking meat slaughtered according to Islamic law include Waitrose, Marks & Spencer, Sainsbury’s, Tesco, Somerfield and the Co-op. And a Mail on Sunday investigation has found that fast-food chains including Domino’s Pizza, Pizza Hut, KFC, ­Nando’s and Subway are also using halal meat without ­telling customers. But the UK’s second-biggest supermarket, Asda, has refused to confirm or deny whether it sells halal meat. The Mail on Sunday contacted Asda on Tuesday, but by yesterday it had failed to answer any of our questions. Initially, Waitrose, Sainsbury’s and Tesco were reluctant to admit they sold halal meat. But later they confessed to selling Islamically slaughtered lamb. Tesco also admitted selling some halal chicken without labelling it as such. Most lamb imported from New Zealand by British supermarkets has been slaughtered according to Muslim law, but this is not mentioned on packaging. Some lamb from British abattoirs is also halal. Last night, Agriculture Minister Jim Paice said: ‘People should know what they’re buying in the shops or when they’re eating out and I will be discussing with the food industry the role labelling can play in giving consumers a choice.’ The supermarkets and fast-food outlets said they did not feel the need to tell customers that meat is halal because the slaughter conformed to Western standards, with animals stunned before being killed. But the RSPCA has raised concerns about the way chicken is killed in Islamic abattoirs because the birds are stunned with a weaker electric current, which does not guarantee unconsciousness during slaughter. More... Is pet food poisoning our dogs? Now Britain is the fattest country in Europe (and the fifth most overweight in the world) More than 70% of New Zealand lamb imports to Britain are halal... but you wouldn't know it from the label Our enquiries have found that ­Subway uses some Islamically slaughtered chicken that has not been stunned. Our enquiries have found that ­Subway uses some Islamically slaughtered chicken that has not been stunned. Non-Muslim religious leaders say that Christians, Hindus or Sikhs may find it offensive to eat meat slaughtered according to Islamic ritual. Jews are unlikely to be exposed to such meat because they eat kosher, or animals slaughtered according to Jewish law. Last week The Mail on Sunday revealed how halal food was being served to unsuspecting people in hospitals, schools and pubs across the UK. The country’s biggest hotel and restaurant group, Whitbread– which owns the Beefeater and Brewers Fayre chains – was also selling halal food, as were well-known sporting venues such as Ascot, Twicken­ham and Wembley. Under Islamic law, an animal must be slaughtered by having its throat cut while it is conscious. All its blood must drain out, otherwise Muslims regard it as impure. The person carrying out the killing has to recite an Arabic verse at the time.brings the practice in line with Western methods. All Islamically slaughtered lamb and chicken sold in British supermarkets is stunned before being killed, but is not labelled as halal. Moderate Islamic groups allow animals to be stunned before slaughter, which brings the practice in line with Western methods. Inayat Bunglawala, the chair of Muslims4UK, said: ‘Supermarkets should not be afraid of labelling their products as halal. Halal meat tastes just the same as non-halal meat.’ But Mike Judge, from the campaign group the Christian Institute, said: ‘The idea of having Islamic ritual said over meat would be objectionable to some Christians. I would find it objectionable, so it should be labelled as halal.’ Initially, Tesco and Waitrose were reluctant to admit they sold any halal meat. Tesco said in a statement: ‘It is not the case that all the meat we sell is halal or that our suppliers only offer halal meat.’ But when quizzed further, a spokesman said: ‘All our New Zealand lamb is halal-slaughtered, as is 35 per cent of our UK lamb. Less than five per cent of our chicken is halal.’ A Waitrose spokeswoman said in her first statement: ‘I can confirm that Waitrose does not sell any halal meat.’ But a day later, another spokes­woman said: ‘You mentioned the [islamic] prayer said at the point of slaughter. This applies to all our lamb but not to beef or poultry.’ M&S said in its first statement: ‘No meat sourced by M&S from the UK is halal.’ When asked about lamb, a spokeswoman said: ‘Our New Zealand lamb is halal-slaughtered but pre-stunned.’ A Sainsbury’s spokesman said: ‘The abattoirs that supply us with lamb are licensed by the Muslim authorities and a prayer is said when the ­animals are killed.’ Sandwich chain Subway admitted that up to five per cent of its chicken is Islam­ically slaughtered without being stunned. Subway said in a statement: ‘By mid-November there will be no halal meat in our non-halal stores. The meat served in halal Subway stores is not stunned before slaughter.’ Domino’s Pizza said it had served Islamically slaughtered chicken in most of its 580 outlets for ten years. I kill 45 chickes a minute and all get an Islamic prayer The Muslim slaughterman murmurs the Islamic verse as thousands of chickens whir towards him on a conveyor belt hung from the ceiling. Masood Akhtar grabs hold of one chicken’s head with his left hand and, with his right, draws his knife across its neck. The slaughterman barely has time to say ‘Bismillah Allah-hu-Akbar’ (meaning ‘In the name of Allah, who is the greatest’) before the next bird is upon him. It appears a long way from the ritualised slaughter that many would imagine produces halal chicken. Mr Akhtar is not dressed in robes but in a hair-net and a yellow blood-spattered jacket. And far from a spiritual ceremony, the process is clinical and robotic – Mr Akhtar claims to kill 45 birds every minute and 40,000 in a week. The procedure appears to follow Sharia law, which states that the bird must be killed alive by a Muslim man who recites the set verse as he cuts its throat. At the Paul Flatman Ltd poultry processing plant outside Colchester in Essex where Mr Akhtar works, the chickens are stunned by dipping them in electrified water before they are killed. ‘The charge stuns the birds for around two minutes – it’s like a general anaesthetic,’ explained factory manager Tim Lane. ‘It’s crucial not to kill the bird because then, it wouldn’t be halal, so we adjust the charge depending on the chicken’s size. We are very careful to get the balance right. ‘Some of the other bigger poultry factories who are supplying the supermarkets claim the chicken they produce is halal – but it’s not really. ‘Instead of using a Muslim man as the killer, they use an automatic circular saw and a tape recorder to play the prayer. ‘They can’t do it properly because of the sheer volume of chickens they have to kill to meet demand. Some of the factories are doing one million birds a week.’ Mr Akhtar, 29, became a slaughterman at the age of 18 after a few months’ training. ‘When I arrived I wanted to be a killer,’ he recalled. ‘On my first day in training, three out of ten birds I killed were not cut properly through both neck arteries – this meant they were not halal. ‘But after three months of practice I was perfect – every bird was killed in true halal style.’ The Paul Flatman plant opened in 1961 slaughtering chickens in the normal way, but in 1977, as demand from halal wholesalers increased, Mr Flatman switched his entire production to halal. He says he has never found it hard to recruit Muslim slaughtermen. ‘It’s usually just through word of mouth in the Muslim community – it’s not hard to find volunteers.’ I am a qualified meat inspector and have lost count of the days and weeks I’ve spent in slaughterhouses. I’ve never liked the ritual way of killing – I don’t believe it is humane. I don’t know any slaughterman who likes it either. But we accept it because it is the law – even though the law has been fudged because the issue is too sensitive for the Government and the EU (which now makes the rules) to take on. A spokeswoman said: ‘The majority of our chicken is halal slaughtered, but it is all stunned prior to slaughter.’ Pizza Hut and KFC, through their PR firm Freud Com­munications, said: ‘We use a number of international suppliers, some of whom provide halal chicken as standard practice. ‘Importantly, all of the chicken we source, halal or otherwise, is stunned before slaughter.’ Nando’s said: ‘All of our chickens are stunned first. A small proportion of all the chicken sold in our restaurants is halal.’ They HAVE to tell us what we're buying Analysis by Richard North Even though I’ve seen it done thousands of times, you never really get used to watching animals being killed. But as long as we eat meat, it has to be done. And it is our duty as a society to ensure that the procedure is carried out humanely and with as much dignity as possible. Society also has to respect religious freedom and rituals, and I don’t have a problem with that. I am, however, uneasy that the laws that require humane killing of animals for meat – particularly that they must be rendered insensible before being slaughtered – do not apply to Jews for their kosher meat and Muslims for halal foods. It is a fudge we have all lived with, however uneasily, for years, feeling safe in the knowledge that this is very much a niche market. Only last week the Office for National Statistics reported that just four per cent of the British population was Muslim. Surely, if you want halal or kosher meat, you go to a specialist butcher and everybody else can be confident their meat is produced to more humane standards? Well, actually, no. That choice has been scandalously taken away from us. Not only are we deliberately not informed if our meat is produced according to religious ritual, many retailers do not even know. And there is only one real reason: profit. The reality of modern meat production, both here and abroad, is that most animals are killed in vast, modern slaughterhouses. Once there were small, specialist kosher and halal producers, but now the trade has been taken over by industrial concerns. To cover the increasing demand for halal meat, these corporate slaughterhouses have either had to introduce halal methods or buy in halal meat from specialist butchers. The choice is either to introduce a separate production line or to take the cost-cutting option of having just one production line. But in this one-size-fits-all world, it’s not the most humane and dignified method of slaughter – the one enshrined in British and EU law – that wins out. No, the ‘one-size’ is the less humane method of killing tailored to the religious demands of just four per cent of the population. Since it is not illegal to palm off halal meat on non-Muslims, that is being done on a massive scale. And there is nothing the Government or the EU can or will do about it. The UK has draconian regulation, far more rigorous than in the rest of Europe. But this was supported by the large slaughterhouses which thought that closing down smaller competition would increase their market share and profit margins. In this country, the combined pressure of regulation and the greed of commercial producers have ensured local butchers are now rare, and local slaughterhouses even rarer. And it is the massive factory abattoir, hidden from sight, that perpetrate these practices. Thus, commercial greed has found a way of circumventing a law that we, in our ignorance, expect to be obeyed and that we have a right to see obeyed. We do not expect commercial interests to prevail, on a technicality, over something that many campaigned for – the humane slaughter of our animals. This is not only commercially wrong, morally it is a disgrace. * Author and journalist Dr Richard North is a qualified meat inspector and former technical adviser to the Small Abattoirs Association. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315278/Top-supermarkets-secretly-sell-halal-Sainsburys-Tesco-Waitrose-M-S-dont-tell-meat-ritually-slaughtered.html#ixzz1PojkdVd9

Well I guess you haven't seen the few Ravidassia who have been on Facebook for the past few years promoting their Ravidassia quam and being separate from sikhs and being a different quam etc. There are proud chamars, there's even a putt chamara deh song video on youtube bigging themselves up. Individuals should also believe in their own qualities and strengths, and not rely on the culture and background. Now should they worry about themselves, or worry about others calling themselves jatts? What effect does it have for me to have this label called jatt, does it instill lack of confidence and paranoia in other people? Are labels that threatening? If I am jatt and they're not, so what? Are they not human beings? Are they not individuals just like us? Are they not proud of being human beings? What kinda khalsa gets upset over people calling themselves jatts, what kinda soldier would such a khalsa make? How can one with such feelings fight in khalsa fauj? How can one with such feelings be showing gyan from bani?

Sikhi also promotes respecting humankind, now how am I gonna get hate against jatts and people being wound up on a jatt forum? Now you can't have a sikhi forum that hates other sikhs can you? Now let all the hatred out, there's a good boy!

Now how does a thread about cousin marriages become a jatt bashing thread eh? Don't disrupt threads, make a thread about jatts like "Why do you have to call youself jatt, please stop!" Were you or me sikhs in our past lives, you tell me that?! My jattness? Look now just because I call myself a jatt doesn't mean I hate everyone else? That would be like saying that because I call myself sikh I have to hate hindus and muslims!!! You do know most of these jatt posts on most of these threads are about people hating jatts than jatts hating other people right? How often do you see people preaching against being Chura or Chamar or Chandaal or Brahmin or Chinese? lol no its always jatts being preached, it makes jatts feel special that they always have to be mentioned in parchar. It is like being in school, why are you telling me off all the time? But does the kid change his behaviour ever? lol

of course! Hold on... I cannot forget my culture if I have been brought up with it. I also follow dharam as part of culture. I do not see good dharam without culture and traditions. A person should be grateful of the panth and Guru they follow. Should feel happy in all the gyan we obtain. I think people should be proud of what they are and what they can be, and use sikhi gyan and also the positives of their culture and traditions to build themselves up as human beings and individuals. There shouldn't be ego in being sikh, many people have ego in being sikh or amrit-dhari; it is sad but true. I myself am proud of khalsa tradition. I have problems with those who call themselves amrit dhari but do nindya of true khalsa traditions (like SS site lol)

lol follow SGPC rehit, me? pah... Can I ask the panj piaray which dal(s) they belong to? I have no idea that you left SS, you just behave like SS people (jathas, SGPC beliefs, and other similar people) that's why I keep going on about it! Me a moderator/admin? lol someone with my views is gonna get banned on that site not become mod lol!! oh dear, are all sikhs supposed to have the same opinions, how boring!?! Like I said, SS site is for people like that! lolz Half naked man's doodoos don't have the same effect on society lolz Proud to be a jatt? My dear, calling myself jatt doesn't mean I am so proud of it. I would rather slap many of the jattis I see around UK, and I don't know what I would do to the druggy jatts in Punjab; give them a good kicking perhaps. Perhaps I am spoilt, lol; but I believe in my culture, and I believe traditions build dharam. Losing culture results in adharam. From what I have seen, those lacking tradition fail to impress me, just make me disappointed in sikh community in general. I do not see me being jatt/not-jatt is a major issue in the sikh community at present compared to other issues! I think I have seen over a decades worth of discussions about of sikhs going on about this stuff, ...like DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Look if you can scare us jatts we could stop. But if people keep going on about it for 10-20+ years then we're just gonna take the p***. You can take Mughal emporer's example, take people to chandni chowk, if they refuse to give up their culture, then just saw them in half or kill them; I dunno whatever you want. lol But people just going on and on without any substance, its just ramblings... Besides, UK people are going to intermarry anyway, let us have our fun while there's still some of us left eh? Don't be such a spoilt sport lol

In western countries you get jatt sikhs who hate jatts because they have been preached that by "sikhi" preachers. Whatever you're taught sometimes sticks when you are young.

So is that what happens when people stop using surname?