ishvar2

Vah

HSD, I'd like to see some real thinking from your part - that does not involve bashing out the same argument over and over again about the time for action is now. I get it. Yeah, I missed you point completely as your idea of fundamentalist is my idea of an extremist or fanatic, and my idea of a fundamentalist is someone who stays true to the fundamentals of something - in letter and in spirit. Maybe you are getting to some good questions but I don't know anything about your vision nor what would you would really like to see. If you are going to produce literature to convince people it's going to have to be more compelling than just saying 'it's possible - act now!'.

1. Nor did I state this was your only tactic - still it's a poor way to get your message off to a start. Try and dispute that, I think you'll find you can't. 2. By saying that everything is in God's control does not preclude one from one's responsibilities. We are have to play the game but the result is not ours. People who know, not intellectually, but spiritually with every fibre of their being that it is God who sustains them are the most awake and I would not label them fundamentalists.I dont think that makes them passive let alone laughing at others. Rather those are the people who will invariably awaken others. This includes awaking them to action! I suppose that your body manifested itself? And the oxygen for you to breathe and food that grows is just coincidental? Maybe I lost you somewhere but I assumed you shared these core beliefs that all comes from God?! Yes, there are processes that govern life but all are His. Like life on Earth cannot exist without the Sun, nor can we exist without His Gifts! Give me some examples - if I twist them then shame on me. 3. ' "and so will the rest of the Panth regardless of whether they are aware of this fact".... er how exactly? are you sure every sikh believes in whats good for the world? or what actual things are good for the entire world and will keep everyone happy? it looks like its not only the pro-khalistani sikhs who have to face up to some real-life questions.' The point not that every sikh knows whats good for the world - instead they pray that all people prosper according to God's will i.e. on this level it doesn't matter how! I agree sikhs of all persuasions have to real life questions, but that's nothing new. I look forward to people taking them on intelligently with determination and Gurkirpa.

HSD, 1) Re: crying. That's your opinion. I feel it's a dismissive way of dealing with someone else's view and it's a rubbish way to win people over to your world view. Anyway, let's leave it at that as I am clearly not getting through to you. 2) Who is swimming against the stream? And who is laughing at them? 3) I don't want to get into who is and isn't a sikh as I don't care tbh. Only Guru Ji knows who meets the criteria. Yet saying that we can do as the muslims do, not to placate oursleves or others, but as a matter of fact/education to those acting in hankaar. As for non-sikhs I will continue to pray for sarbat da pala - and so will the rest of the Panth regardless of whether they are aware of this fact. What do you actually do to intellectulize the panth apart from sharing your thoughts on forums?

HSD, 1. Please continue to state if some sounds like they are crying but the truth is you don't know for sure. You may be surprised that your assumption is wrong. 2. 'if gurudwara committees are so badly run (which some are) why are you complaining and not doing anything?' I respect anyone trying to do something positive for people, communities or anything. And yes, I admit I can do a lot more, I have no illusions about that. (But you'll notice from my above post I personally haven't criticised people running Gurudwaras - I just made a statement that running a country is harder.) However, my concern is that in the rush to go and do something we do not do it as well and as long term as we could have and we do not have the foresight, knowledge and virtues to do them in the way that they should be done. Therefore, you can accuse some people of doing nothing, but perhaps that is because they know they need to develop themselves first and maybe one day with Guru Kirpa they'll help the panth and when they do it'll be a) long term - the effects will not be a quick fix b ) with correct understanding (instead of full of holes like myself) c) self generating as they'll teach others and not hold the blessings that they have had to themselves d) without the negative effects that comes with people thinking they are achieving something themselves (hankaar) e) with blessing of all Sampradayas and the Panth at large - or under the tutelage of those with pure jivaans like Mahapurakhs f) with the gunn that Guru Ji's teaches comes from God Himself This is not an argument against doing anything till you are perfect or anything rather it is an argument for doing things with a bit more awareness than we are usually accustomed to. A great example of someone doing seva like this is Bhagat Puran Singh Ji - he did not do just seva of people, he looked at everything with an awareness of environment, fund raising, person health, and wrote extensively. And most importantly he knew his compassion was God given and he felt blessed just being given the opportunity to serve people - for him serving people was serving God. I am blessed that know of people who are already seva (or different forms) in line with what I have outlined above and they have many blessing from Guru Ji to do this. I hope maybe, Guru Kirpa, you can be one of these people too. Last two points: 2) 'even if khalistan was free, we wouldnt get anywhere if the panth sat on the sidelines waiting to see if it was worth supporting, before piling in if it is successful and saying they were responsible for the victory.' Yes, we will not get anything if the Panth are waiting to see if it's going to be successful - but can you see that's why people need to develop themselves and our jeevans - professionally, socially and spiritually. When and if the time comes (i.e. if God wills it) it'll happen. There is no victory for Sikhs - it's always Vaheguru Ji Ki Fat-heh. 3) 'lol, i can actually imagine quite a lot of sikhs jumping up and down afterwards saying they were the ones who did all the hard work.' I doubt if this situation did occur that real Sikhs would claiming they did all the hard work: Gura ik deh bujha-ee. Sabhna jee-a ka ik daata,. So mai visar na ja-ee Finally, may I ask what you do or what you have done to further this cause?

HSD, please don't make the mistake that someone having an opinion against such a state is crying - rather they are having the foresight to see that we do not currently have the capability to create nor maintain our own state. About actually governing a country, I am sure you'll agree that running a country is far more challenging than running a Gurudwara! I agree with the above posters that as Sikhs our concern should be devotion to the Ultimate.

Oh, and thanks for putting this up.

Kam, next time we meet I'll take you through some torrenting technology and maybe make a guide so everyone can share here.

Dhanvaad Freed Ji

I can't answer any of your questions as I have negligible knowledge and experience of this but it's worth doing a search on this forum for past threads related to handwriting: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?sh...;hl=calligraphy

Matheen, sure that makes sense. Keep it functional veera.

Anyone got the original in Farsi then? Even that would be better than nothing.

My meagre understanding is that it's God's play (tamasha) as N30 said. And like Kam said, only He knows for sure. Reading the mind of God is like eating iron, upside down in ice cold water with no oxygen tank. Yet I know my analogy is totally inadequete, as I know such a thing is completely possible compared to knowing His mind!

Seriously, other than the ability to lift cars, to improve one's health (although some can take it too far) and to look intimidating/strong, why do people want to 'bulk up'? I aint saying it' s wrong but one has to work out why they are doing it. I've seen enough guys focus on it for the wrong reasons and they end up destroying themselves going after some mythical body image. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that!

Some interesting pictures here: http://www.pothimalaguruharsahai.com/murals/index.htm Freed Ji where are you?!

Thanks bro. Lol - that music is cheesy!

I highly recommend Panther in the Sky by James Alexander Thom. It's a historical fiction about the great Shawnee leader Tecumtheh.

One has to keep in mind that money has no value itself. In fact, it is only a reference to things that have actual value i.e. gold, products etc. This is the reason why if everyone had a million dollers it would be worth less than it does now. The other factor in here is inflation, which generally increases with passage of time meaning devaluing currency so £100 today will purchase less in 10 years than now. I think the major problems has been the emergence of financial services. A majority of these are nothing more that ways of making money out of making money i.e. not creating any value of any sort. I agree some well meaning attempts can hamstring fledgling economies but I think this also misses the point on how multinational use cheap labour then when worker regulations increase and/or wage increases are demanded they leave the country to find the next group of cheaper labour. While some ecnomic good is done in that time, they are massive repurcussions for the current working generation in terms of health, and mental wellbeing. Yes, their kids may be able to break out of poverty because of their parents toil (isn't that true of almost all of us) the question of at what cost and also how sustainably is this being done. I highly recommend watching this documentary which highlight how corporations work - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3203253804055041031 Obviously, keep an open mind (i.e. do ones own research after watching to work out what you think).

In answer to the question as to whether this effort by someone (not me) is verified, I'd say no. I imagine that it was done out of prem as opposed to deliberately mislead people or to cause a ruckus.

Hopefully not a repost! http://www.scribd.com/doc/13264404/Hand-Wr...s-of-Sikh-Gurus

Thanks.

Just download it from BBC iplayer

"In my humble opinion, in the nuclear world, the true enemy is war itself."

You are welcome

Funnily enough I was looking for this a couple of weeks ago and here it is. Thank you.