drawrof

I have also met a nirmala who looks like a jewellery exporter...the trenchcoat, frog eyes, fish lips....but you have to honor his composure Chatanga, I also feel it is normal and second nature with the dynamics of society to categorize people according to dress. It happens to all of us, all the time. It is also natural to assume circumstances and/or doctrine affects one's dress. What "I" feel guru sahib is saying is that we are to rise above the external...realize the internal and then go with that therein. This in turn would mean there would be very distinct and not so distinct people doing different things. Look at the variety of people and their diversity in guruji's darbar. In essence, clothing does not make or break a person..what the clothes represent does, at times, tell alot. my honest and humble opinion.

'coz u have to be smart like a brahman to read inni', pundit-nirmala-like

I feel chatanga is right and we should kick Dynamic Banda ® out of the panth because he isn't a human...I am afraid this paapi das has now realised his ways and has to admit that maybe he is actually a monkey. He should be given tankaah for writing intelligent babble beyond his capacity as a monkey...he should be punished for being on the internet and trying to be human (a child at that and a laadla on top of that) as well as being deviant and sneaking into an amrit sanchar....maybe the ablakhee's spiritual fall was initiated by the banana peel. Here is my answer now: I have been in india now for 3 months. I've come across all types of people and the most interesting thing to note is that there isn't a collective thought about sikhi (per se), simply because the population and forum for thought exchange isn't limited...like it is abroad. The truth is that there is alot that isn't being done...and a hell of alot that really is being done. Economics is a huge limiting factor...therein it is sharda. You have good and bad everywhere, guru is 'deen dyal'...don't play dharam raj. At the end of the day, very few people abroad will actually be running into battle any time soon (unless 2012 occurs..again, sorry for not answering that in detail..I don't have my resources handy). If there are problems and issues in the 'panth'...then ask, where in guru granth sahib ji has guru sahib NOT answered things? excuse the sarcasm...

interesting about the dera of the bandai khalsa, where are they located? I might be able to go and get pictures

you thinks right chatanga, I was easily disturbed...due to medication. I think refocusing people through more engaging kirtan/katha is better than destroying heritage. Heritage acts as a reminder of certain time frame in history. Gurbani is full of metaphors and it is stated that the devi/devtays worship the guru etc. We matha teyk and acknowledge that, it is written in words. When we see it in art, it is gurbani painted in imagery...again nothing wrong with that. I do agree that the one liner you have stated has merit, but I feel that a consensual understanding of one line can not over ride the practices of earlier sikhs and the rest of guru granth sahib ji in being the definitive edict on how to live life.

Although I respect gyani gurbachan singh ji and wouldn't dare to question it; I am not 100% sure about the theory..only because I don't know if anyone else has qualified it.

again, your mindset disturbs me chatanga. Why don't we just remove any imagery, any metaphor, anything within gurbani that is expressive and just focus on the gurmukhi letters of waheguru????..........this is an expression of art...nothing more...let things stand,

which nirmala texts have you looked at chatanga? have you met nirmallay? if I write up something today, does it mean that it is right? I suggest something in english...try getting bhavrasamrit tika...or even better, get the sateek of japji sahib by gyani gurbachan singh bhindrawalay....then see what texts he references...

I feel knowledge and experience go hand in hand. Yet, this scenario isn't so simple. I like analogies, so here goes one . aim: to swim across the lake 2 options: 1) jump in and wade your way across...not knowing how you're going to get there...where you're going, or how to prevent yourself from drowning 2) read and read and read....till you have understood the history of the lake and why which rock forms the basin. after a little while........... a person sits and thinks....hmm, I am on land, which is on an ocean...so in essence I am travelling...but with no aim...so why not create a raft, learn about the raft...and use that raft to cross the ocean....and maybe even follow instructions on how to raft......that way a person can do both, if they fall off the raft, the can learn how to get back on...but when the aim is to cross the lake...why not choose your raft wisely? any comments?

Mahapurash such as baba jagjit singh has categorized guru nanak as a puran hari avatar...whereas you'll see taksal giving guru nanak the title of guru avtar.

I believe the personal level and our own spiritual state is to remain mast, but apart from that....so long as we live, we are bound to constructs...its just life.

words like intelligence, take us to that brink....thereafter its all experience...something that can't be quantified as it has 'dynamically' been said

Singh47, your point is very good, and I guess it is 'safe' to assume that one is not bound to maya when they are in 'full' khalsa state (meaning in full purity/one with akaal/self realised<probably>), but the physical form of the khalsa still resides in is bound to maya. A 'fact' we can agree to on the most part is that no 2 humans live the exact same life (this is what I mean by anek hai), I feel that being the nature of maya in creation...that no 2 people would live the exact same routine/rituals in life. Maya is bound to time (as I understand), hence while we are living we are also bound to time....now here is an example to illustrate what I mean by anek hai....you have 2 chardiankallah gurmukh paaji's and painji's who have given up the life of being paapi's (one has a clicker and does mool mantar all day and does langar seva at the gurudwara) the other attends university seminars and gives speeches (as their seva) and instead of doing mool mantar; listens to kirtan all day on their ipod/walkman etc....both in their daily life are remembering god and trying to be 'leen' with waheguru. Even if they both wake up at the exact same time every morning...chances are that even then, there is a difference....this is why I was posing the question.....whose definition of a khalsa? what does that definition entail? what does it proscribe? on another note, I have one plea to everyone....live life with sahej (take what comes at you) live 'normal' gurmukh lives...when you have the urge to do more paat (do it), when you have the urge to do more seva (do it)...but try not to create constructs as even they can break, and interpretations of the guru's directives are very much influenced by our own paradigms...what I am saying is 'go with it'...but do not being obsessive compulsive on the matters of preparing for bhagtee, but rather just get on with it.... I apologize, this paapi is caught up in the same vicious cycles, but I try to keep as much pyaar as possible..its all about pyaar

I say the following with the 'little' knowledge I have. I don't feel the sampardai approach focused on figures per se. The virtues of nirankar are expressed through out creation, but even those expressed as 'genotypes' in brahmgyani's (for a better lack of words) would 'generally' be satoguni-rajoguni-tamoguni based on the circumstances they were in. The will is of akaal purakh, and the directive or examples are inidicative of those who are in complete 'tune' with creation/reality/spirit/force/oangkar...they would be 'rajai' in 'hukam'. At a deeper level, is maya real, semi-real, false....I do not know, but I feel it is safe to presume that recognizing the reality behind maya in itself would be mind blowing. As for the sampardai perspective, I can't give a full explanation from their perspective, from what I think....the point here is self-realization and if your gurdev gets you to that point...then the game is done. What I mean here is that sargun qualities would be expressed through that interaction, but I truly don't feel that this is about hierarchies of saints and their abilities, as these are narratives which appeal to the masses who see bhagtee MAINLY as a means to acquire material wealth.

simply said....which definition and whose definition of khalsa is being presented..further I believe khalsa is the 3rd panth, but like the rest of creation which is bound to the diversity of maya....so is the khalsa. ek hai, fer aneyk hai.

The important question that this poses is where in one's practice does one become fixated on the sargun? What are actual indices of this (quasi)-state? and what is the motivation of one to remain in such a fixated paradigm....the truth behind all this permeates each of our inner natures in every respect of life...*my 2 paisay*

Well, I beg to differ Sau saakhi says that guru gobind singh ji will return in 2012 and the special ones, and many know who they are, will be along with him!

see 'dis is wot we need, pyaar for sikhi...look at tsingh paaji, he's got so much pyaar for sikhi

try sacha sauda

don't listen to drawrof...he's 'backward'

very interesting points, recently i've been reading prem sumarag granth and the mysoginism is quite rampant in that as well.....what i find interesting though is that I was told that the gurdwara system used to be such that families sat together in the olden days...further, some of the manjidars were supposedly women; is this/was this a truth or is this just a modern day attempt at recognizing women to keep face??

freed thanks for the pasting, i used a text copy to translate something to note ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਅਖਾੜੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਦੀਂ ਨਾ ਵੜਨ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾਏ, ਅਤੇ ਨਸ਼ੇ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਲਈ ਭੀ ਰੋਕ ਹੈ, ਮਗਰ ਅਫੀਮ ਅਤੇ ਭੰਗ ਦੀ ਰੋਕ ਨਹੀਂ...key note, no ladies in the akhaaray, no alcohol or drugs, but opium and weed are okay.....

the following is an entry from mahankohsh page 38!, i found it interesting...excuse the mistakes, and the commentaries are my own. Bhai thotaa singh, ram singh, mathaab singh asked the maharaja of patiala (narendar singh), maharaja of nabha(bharpur singh), maharaja of sangrur(saroop singh) for patronage to create an akhara called “dharamduja†in 1819. Mathaab singh was the first “sri mahantâ€. The following is the maryada that was put into effect august 10,1862 1) the akhara will choose a mahant based on the input of the 3 areas mentioned above (patiala, nabha, sangrur) and 4 other mahants will be chosen by the sri mahant who adorn the 5 k’s (kes, kirpan, kanga, kach, karra). 2) the laangri people (whether you say singh/sikh etc) have to be rehitvaan 3) the akhara requires the following 6 to be rehitvaan 1) 2 karobari (workers or…heads…but it appears more likely that they provide some type of janitorial services) 2) 2 bhandaari’s (langri people) 3) 1 granthi (reader of the granths) 4) 1 gyani (one who explains the shabads via katha etc) All of the above have to be rehitvaan, and there should also be 1 or 2 people who wash clothes as well 4) The current sri mahant fits the above criteria, the next one should have the following qualities: dutiful, celibate, and rehitvaan 5) If for any political reason or for any patronage some dealing with the akhara occurs; the sri mahant and sri guru granth sahib will receive offerings. No other mahant will receive money. (harry’s note: it could have been a tradition for those with a lot of money and/or political aspirations to give money to saint/saint-like figures). 6) All the money given as offerings will be used for the akhara…even if anything is brought from outside it is for the akhara. The mahants shall not use the money for anything personal. 7) If the sri mahant would like to allocate money to other sadhu’s, for dharmic purposes, for tiraths, for clothing to other sadhu’s, etc..they should do so but they are obligated to keep accounting records 8) No money will be spent on the akhara without the approval of the sri mahant, but in the case of an emergency where the sri mahant is not accessible; one may make appropriate arrangements but the accounts will have to be given to the sri mahant for accounting purposes 9) If for any urgency there has to be a replacement of the sri mahant, the new sri mahant will have to swear upon guru granth sahib ji that he will be dutiful and allocate all received money for the akhara and for no personal gains or ventures 10) If anyone wants to do any monetary or reparation/development services for the akhara; the sardar should be treated with respect. 11) If a sikh who is of humble means offers any money; they should be cut a receipt and their money should go into the akhara’s fund/account and all due respect should be accorded. 12) Anyone who on a journey doesn’t come to the akhara, they should do so and treat it like a gurdwara (harry’s note: probably referring to virakat/sadhu’s…and possibly hinting at making the akhara appear more like a gurdwara than a normal dera) The next 15 will be done tomorrow

Ranjit Singh Freed is anti-sant! everyone knows that papa smurf is a nirmala, or he was until he became a bandhai and started wearing red. he adorned the traditional khalsa boonga and treated smurfette like his own daughter....it is apparent that he is the janasheen of the panth and held his role as jathedar/poojari with great esteem....shame on you; papa smurf is chardiankallah....you just don't like him because he encouraged singing in simple dharna's as opposed to raag.... LaLA-l-la la la-la-l-la la la

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh! One who hasn't had ice cream, can't talk about how frozen yogurt is a substitute...... We ALL are somewhere in this equation....lets figure out the ice cream, enjoy its taste TOGETHER....frozen yogurt won't even come into the picture.