dalsingh101

Do you honestly think pind people will act naturally around a guy from Britain. Because it certainly hasn't been the case when I have made brief visits before. Plus the way you seem to dismiss any information contrary to your own perceptions (even if it is anecdotal) seems strange. Are you telling me many villages do not have issues with caste esp. jats versus chuhra/chamaars?

Well, I'm certainly not listening to anything you say. You're the apologist dark sith lord himself as far as I'm concerned. Probably a closet BNP lover too.

Oh how wonderful is the creation of God that above all worldly things, religion is the supreme thing. With its corruption, the corruption and degeneration of all things generally happen, for, it is religion that binds thousands in one cord of union. Attar Singh Bhadour

Are you serious. I thought it was V that doesn't exist? But on reflection you're probably right. I'm going to struggle to stop saying Waheguru over Vaheguru....

SGPC and the DSGMC are very different Mithar. SGPC is directly linked to the Akal Takhat for a start. DSGMC lot have no mechanism to influence the community outside of Delhi, it isn't linked to any Takhat let alone the main one for Sikhs. SGPC has a long history and covers the vast bulk of historical Gurdwaras. Their influence on Sikh polity is supreme. They can excommunicate. That is why there is often a link of Jattism to crap going on in the panth so often. That's a pretty pervasive tool for influence - come on! Look, seriously, I've frequently heard alternate views to what you are saying from nonJat Sikh ground level village sources (yes from villages) myself. I meet A LOT of freshies (more than your average British raise person would), they paint a very different picture to what you are suggesting. Casteism and discrimination ARE big issues in their pinds. Every last person I've spoken to says the Akali Dal is really a party catering to the interests of Jats. Hell, even Brit Jatt guys and girls I know even frequently own up to as much when they return from back home (i.e. "my family told me not to mix with nonjats when I was there"). You've even had videos on the Internet highlighting discrimination and it is always Jatt landowners who are fingered in all this. Maybe you are being like one of those nice liberal whites who, although very sincere and good people, are completely blind to the organised crap other groups of their community get up to? Anyway, I've made my point, and have truly tried evaluating yours. I still hold that there are BIG problems stemming from jattness in the panth and Panjab in general. Unless, jatts themselves recognise this, they will only continue to worsen.

Mithar I don't know why you've thrown DSGMC into the matter because (as I've said before) it isn't comparable to the Panjab based SGPC at all. SGPC represent the latest manifestation of Sikh polity in its heartland whereas the latter is plainly a newly emerged Delhi based fleecing organisation. In anycase, I get the picture. Once it is your own people are behind a bunch of crap, people naturally get defensive and dismissive. I see it amongst the English all the time with their constant denials of being anything other than benevolent angels. In anycase (relating to the thread), I personally don't get an erection every time India cocks up, I suggest other brothers don't either. I know all of the evil that was done to Sikhs in the 84 phase. I also know some apnay weren't angels in all this either. I don't want to perpetually define myself as 'against India', it's something I've done for way too many years. I hope India progresses and learns and manages to uplift and give a decent standard of life for all the poor people there, Sikh and nonSikh. Those people who struggle everyday. Families who live in slums. Street children who have to work. People with no proper access to medical provisions and basic education. Those people, they need it more than a lot of plump, well off arseholes who sit around the Panjab and complain every second.

Are you denying that Sikh jatts generally monopolise the SGPC and the Akali Dal agenda?

Mithar your post doesn't surprise me. Farmers have a habit of blaming the world for their problems yet never taking a reflective look at themselves. If you are trying to tell me jatt bullshit mentality is not dominating Sikhi issues right now, mainly through numerical power in Panjab and the cultural influence being in a majority brings and a hold on SGPC you are either outright lying or in denial. The finger needs to be pointed where it must. No one is saying historically jatts haven't contributed a lot to Sikhi but to try and use that to okay the bullshit that comes from them today is nonsense. Jatt backwardness is now infecting Sikhi on multiple levels, especially the intellectual one. Personally I couldn't give a shit about any of the things jatts are constantly crying about and wish they stopped turning their suicide, drug, pendu violence and status obsessed issues into 'Sikh' ones. If farming is working out so shit for you people, just leave the damn trade. Funny how my own family who have used funds from UK to buy a lot of land back home never constantly whine like Jatt farmers do. No one is interested and they should just shut up and throw their dads 'Put jatt da' cassette in the bin and read more books or something. It just has a net effect of bringing yet more depressing news to nonjatt Sikhs. With mentalities like that no wonder Hindus are outdoing us.

I'm more concerned about the enemies within right now. Especially those sitting in positions of power in our premier institutes. Plus you need a wake up call. Go to Sikhsangat.com and take a clear look at the mentality and intellect of the vast majority of the youth of the panth. Well those who still push their Sikh identity anyway.

Be real too. Sikh Panjabis aren't the most pleasant bunch to preside over, certainly not now, and probably not then either. Curiously after Ranjit, only the British knew how to press the right buttons to subdue apnay, but I guess a large part of this was down to large scale deaths of truly free-spirited Singhs in the wars with the Afghans and the subsequent wasp battles? Don't be too dismissive or harsh on Ranjit, he was a great man, but like any man, he had his human weaknesses too.

You only have the 'all things farm' obsessed brothers to blame for that, not Indians. Come on wake up. Those guys even sing songs about farming and curiously work their way into high level academic positions to tell everyone how essential farming and farmers are to Sikhi. And some point you'll have to stop blaming India and look closer to home for our woes. Truth is farmers have hijacked Sikhi to use it as a platform for their err.....farming agenda. So whilst Hindustan aims to go into space, saday phudhus are probably dreaming of ..yes you've guessed it, more farmland.....and more tractors or other miscellaneous material, superficial, status obsessed pendu bullshit. We are becoming rural idiots. Maybe not 'becoming' now, but 'are'?

I have to say, I don't really agree with vast chunks of Shaheediyan's interpretations of things but I think he is somewhat right in the idea of the Khalsa state being somewhat of a multicultural one. This isn't to paint some utopian picture though because we know that sullay sometimes got it hard in the further outposts of the empire. And Ranjit Singh pushed an anti beef policy in his kingdom. The Islam that was patronised was the more liberal kind, exemplified by the Fakir brothers, not Wahhabi crap which probably sees that period as 'the dark days'. Shaheediyan said: I don't really agree with this. Even looking at our own narratives we find the projections of distinctions along classical Indic lines of asuras and devlok, devs and daints representing good and evil, the aggressors and the defenders etc. To me the actions of the British clearly fall into those of asuras and daints. Truth is, in one way we got it lightly compared to say Africans or even South Indians, in that they weren't carting us off en masse in chains to slavery colonies to grow bananas or sugarcane. Also, they had to check their lustful ways in the Northern regions too, given the strong prevalence of 'izzat' culture which would have probably resulted in swift retaliation. That being said, in some strange twist of fate those who are the descendants of slaves are now free with their own nation states, whilst those who are the descendants of a warrior people who carved out their own enviable nation despite serious opposition have now become a relatively powerless people in what remains of their looted homeland (those of us not scattered to the winds that is).

That just sounds like sour grapes to me. I would rather they kept focused and busy on stuff like this than twat around murdering and generally interfering with their minority populations myself.

Mate I know plenty of Sikh 'dugoos' who tell of treating Africans like lesser beings when they were there. I'm not surprised they look down on 'asians'. I know in Kenya Sikhs in particular have a rep for being sly bastards.

This is an instance where Singh Sabha got things right big time. Weaning apnay off worshiping any old bod claiming they were 'holy'. If we emphasised our republican/egalitarian side much more we wouldn't have so many sheep bastards to become x, y and z banauti baba's chelay. Plus apnay are twats too, looking for quick fix 'interventions' to the divine for their wishes and desires - and being willing to jump on anyone who promises bandwagon.

I can't help but think that towards the end he looked about him at apnay and just knew the clowns he saw around him didn't have what was required to hold things up and make the right maneuvers after his demise, so he became indifferent. It seems highly unlikely that a man as shrewed as him couldn't have had an inkling of what was to happen after his death. Every last European visitor to the kingdom seems to have 'prophesised' it. If those twats could figure it out, I'm sure Ranjit did. To his credit he modernised the Khalsa fighting machine and gave them the best chance militarily speaking at least. Sadly, whilst the rank and file soldiery were full of the type of patriotic pride required for success and sacrifice, very little of the ruling classes seemed to have any interests outside of personal material ones.

The Chinese have twigged onto this for years and have been doing big projects all over Africa.

That's not entirely true though is it. Look at Trumpp's work for example. It was disparaging and read by many Sikhs. Plus I think calling these people anthropologists is stretching it a bit.....

It sort of makes sense in another way too i.e. how Indian kids statistically piss all over the goray here in academic achievement (only being beaten by the Chinese I think). Maybe people from the subcontinent weren't as ignorant and illiterate prior to British interference in the region as generally suggested by their narratives? How much does the ignorant, superstitious, half starved orientalist narrative really reflect what they encountered in Panjab and how much of this was plain propaganda and brainwashing to subdue our people mentally/psychologically?

What is remarkable is how these historic events have such a pervasive effect on nations/peoples that long outlive the actual event.

Funny how we can both look at the same thing and see two different things. Whilst religious plurality and equality seems to be the salient feature for yourself, I can't help but notice how Panjabis got shafted so very hard by the Anglo-Saxons (and their collaborators). Is what we are reading about our own equivalent of when Mongols stormed Baghdad and set Islamic civilisation/education back to the dark ages? Sure there is less bloodshed but the net effect on Sikh society intellectually is something we can only guess. It does however go someway into explaining the pendufied nature of much of the panth today,

Another very interesting Pakistani article about the state of education under M. Ranjit Singh. Tried to find Leitner's book online (in google books) couldn't find it sadly. http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/local/lahore/destruction-of-schools-as-leitner-saw-them-100

Interesting. Never heard of the Das Gur Katha before.

We have to ask some uncomfortable questions. 1) Why are apnay getting involved in this? Is it just finance and fame? Are they sell outs? 2) Why do most of those apnay that do get involved seem to embody a particular caste mindset which they unashamedly push through their academic work?

I hear Indian workers are really looked down on in these countries. They are like the servile classes. Yet again, lack of progression and opportunities in Panjab leads our people to end up as second rate people in foreign lands.