dalsingh101

I must say though, when non Muslims are getting it, Muslims in general seem totally not bothered.

Singh2, I haven't heard ANYONE seriously trash SGGS ji yet. If a number of fringe nutjobs have, so be it. The vast majority of people who consider themselves as Sikhs hold the granth in the most respect, even if for some this is only in terms of its physical embodyment (being largely ignorant of contents). If however you are talking about Dasam Granth, then I am not surprised as for a 100 odd years there has been a general suspicion of the content of some of the granth probably due to the politics of the Singh Sabha movement. People being nurtured on this are going to be suspect. What is unacceptable however is some of the language used in the debate ON ALL SIDES. Talking badly of SIkh literature is just foolish and accusingly pointing the finger of blasphemy doesn't help either. I disagree with your assertion that a few people who do not believe in the DG is more dangerous than corruption at the core of Sikh institutes. Besides, at times you seem to fail to understand that the vast majority who do not consider the whole contents of DG to be bani, do not question Amrit bani. But again, to me this highlights the whole problem. In a time of the rise of nazi in Europe. Global warming with serious implications to siaspora Sikhs and Panjab. Conversions of Sikhism to Islam and subtle mass conversions to WASP ideology as well caste becoming ingrained in Sikhs, we are busy going nuts between ourselves over DG or some other issues that should NOT be the priority. Anyway, this thread is about something else Singh2. Please let us not digress.

Turkey has lots of forces pushing pulling within. The army is the main bastion of secularism. They are loyal to the ideology of Ataturk, the Turkish reformer.

That is really naive Singh. Given an opportunity WASPS would repaint the whole world in their image. It is deeply ingrained in them. Just because they are not as openly hostile as Muslim fundos, don't get fooled.

Shaheediyan I have no problem with accepting Dasmesh Pita had 3 wives. It doesn't diminish him in my eyes one iota. We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources. But you are right, there are some tendencies to project modern liberal values on Sikhi at times. I was raised up in the shadow of the Singh Sabha literature movement. I am now having to revisit things I previously took for granted.....

We need lots of true patriots. Everyone has been brainwashed into the modern Jatt/Panjabi capitalist mentality thing now. They see anything outside of stacking money as foolish. On the other side we have paper praying tigers. All sant - no sipahi. So many sell outs in Amritsar has seriously hurt us.

All I draw from it is that Dasmesh Pita had more than one wife. The closeness in terms of date means it was unlikely that the author would get broad facts wrong (i.e. multiple wives) but of course smaller details could get confused. Your hypothesis is valid. I would also like to explore the possibility that Mata Sundari and Mata Jeeto may be the same person. Before coming on such sites, these questions never meant anything to me...lol BTW, I am open minded on the matter. No decision made yet. And no rush to do so either.

That's cool HSD. I think we are broadly barking up the same tree. I would strongly suggest and encourage Sikhs join the Canadian forces.

I would agree that typical Sikh upbringings need to be changed. We have become a nation of office workers........that is ALL we aim for now. I can't see this changing....this will only increase. Used to be a time when a Panjabi man was anakhi by nature....wdf happened?

Duplicate post.

From Chahar Gulshan by Rai Chatarman Saksena completed in 1759-60. Translated by Irfan Habib in Sikh history from Persian sources. Mata Sundari: She was a wife of Guru Gobind. They say she also served him [or kept him company]. From the time she quarrelled with Ajit Singh (my note: this was an adopted son), she established a separate spiritual seat and people were drawn towards her. When she died people turned to Sahib Devi. Sahib Devi also known as Kunwara Doli (virgin bride). They say she is the daughter of one of the hill rajahs. He had sent his daughter for [marriage to]Guru Gobind. Guru Gobind died before her arrival. Thereafter she did not agree to marry anyone and lived in Delhi. After Mata Sundari's death she succeeded to her spiritual seat. After one year, she too died. Footnotes: (1) The Sikh tradition is that Sahib Devi was the daughter of a Sikh of Rohtas, and was married by the Guru after he had given up family life (Macauliffe. 5. pg 143-144) (2) According to Sikh tradition Sahib Devi died very soon after her husband and thus predeceased Mata Sundari, who died in 1747 (Macauliffe. 5. pgs: 254, 256-257)

I read a Persian account from the mid 1700s which referred to Guru Gobind Singh's 2 wives. One was mentioned as a kanvari doli. So he seems to have had 2 wives but did not have physical relations with one.

Like I have a say in how my taxes are spent! lol Anyway, although I get your point about training (HSD), we should also be a bit astute about getting involved in drawn out, ill conceived and possibly unwinnable wars. I mean, what moron thought they could change Afghanistan into some democratic, gender equal state? I've known plenty of Sikhs who do do something. It is a shame the majority bury their heads in the sand. That's the crux of the matter also. What can you do for your own people if you are stuck fighting other people's wars. If the majority of Singhs just had common street smarts and some tuttay in general, that would be a damn good start, forget using bandooks etc. The problem we are having is a psychological one, not a training one, in my opinion.

Shaheediyan, If I live here does it mean I must agree with everything done by the indigenous people? Wake up, the real reason our parents came here was economic upliftment. So as I am of foreign extraction my objections to white supremacism is some sort of disloyalty is it? If an indigenous person is anti capitalist/war, are they being disloyal? If I had a choice I would not fund imperialism, sadly we have no real choice in this though do we. I agree that the Khalsa need to revert back to older practices in relation to military training but your suggestion of getting into bed with whoever to do this is narrow minded. We had a heavy presence in the British army of the past but this still did not prevent Panjab being torn apart and an uncountable amount of Sikhs being butchered at partition. Don't be so naive about our hosts. Did you not hear of the BNP Euro election wins? You said: I for one am glad that Sikhs have moved on from being storm troopers for Anglo-Saxons. That respect is conditional on being canon fodder. Is that what you see as a good option for Sikhs? Is that what you think the Khalsa are? Are you one of those apologist Sikhs for white civilisation? BTW, the real reason we lost our intrinsic military power was directly due to its diversion for British imperialism. This made many Sikhs lose their original purpose and became mercenary.

I agree that Khalistan is not going to happen anytime soon, if it does happen. Your explantion of the Sikh equivalent to what I originally mentioned is pindufied to the extreme! How does a Sikh fighting for Johnny Saxon equate to to member of the Turkish diaspora training for war in Turkey? I know people in the police force, they tell me it is very racist. Last night I watched a BBC program with parents of some those killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, they were lamented the fact that their kids died on the basis of a WMD lie. And you think Sikhs should follow goray into that type of thing? You talk of desh bhagti...what......for this desh??? We are not the simple village folks our forefathers were, I like to think we can get on without having to sell our souls to white imperialism.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not saying all and every Muslim is bad. It is just a certain supremacist interpretation that is dangerous.

Be fair Inder. He has asked some genuine linguistic questions.

I have often thought something similar. No thinking man can deny the effects of Anglo/read western, interference around the globe. However, I strongly disagree that the creation of this malicious strain has been a by product of white interference. In my opinion is has existed for a long time before they were involved. What I think happened is that the West, particularly the English, caused its resurrection. It was prevalent in Saudi but was defeated by Turks who had their own imperialistic agenda. Only after the Arab uprisings against the Turks, led/assisted by a Brit (T.E. Lawrence: http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95aug/lawrence.html), did it reappear as a force. Same thing in the Panjab. Islamic supremacism was defeated by the Khalsa. It was only after the Khalsa themselves were attacked and defeated by the Brits and their Indian mercenaries, that Islamic fundamentalism re-emerged in the shape of Pakistani nationalism. What I am trying to say is that it existed before white mans appearance but was defeated by some tribes, races, religions. But the after effects of the changes introduced/caused by outsiders in many places caused it to raise its head up. You could argue a modern example is Iraq, where Saddam had pretty much crushed fundamantalism in favour of a dictatorship. Now that he has been removed, what do we see happening! That is not however to confuse Iraqi nationalists fighting for sovereignity with the other type of non Iraqi ideological fighter who may be there.

What do you mean by Shiah terrorist? I don't think there are much shiahs fighting in Taleban or Al Qaida? I could be wrong though. From my understanding many Sunnis think Shias are outside of the Ummah?

Be careful of lumping all in together where significant differences are present. I think we should hear what Shiahs have to say. Truth is that they too have been bearing the brunt of Islamic fundamentalists attacks themselves. Besides, the Persian streak in them seems to make them different from your average gangsta P. Notice one thing though guys!!! If this had been something occuring in any non indigenous community it would all over the front the papers and news!! Notice how it is discreetly played down and given little coverage. Fact is, if something is perceived to be a threat to white people, it is major......otherwise it is played down.

Mek' Jannat Although I partially agree with your opinions regarding the west and how it perceives those markedly different from it, what you fail to appreciate is that Islam too has its own brand of the same malicious strain, that detests and seeks to destroy anything different to it. Call it Wahhabism, Sunni or whatever, Sikhs have experienced it full force. It is naive of you to imply that there is no members of the Islamic faith that are ready to use lethal force against perceived enemies, this spills out to innocent civilians and non believers. Look at Mumbai, 7/7 for examples. You may rightly point out that western forces are doing the same thing in say Afghanistan, but two wrongs do not make a right. So when you say: Realise that there are orthodox Muslims would be happy to see the violent destruction of Jews, Sikhs, Sufis, Ismailis etc. despite the fact that these people's own faiths/beliefs nourish them. Such differences are an anathema to such people. This is the so called "Mulsim threat" referred to here. That is not to say that such a threat will not be twisted to be used for Anglo advantage.

Gobind das, could also refer to the "slave of God". A term used by any devote person.

A network of suspected far-right extremists with access to 300 weapons and 80 bombs has been uncovered by counter-terrorism detectives. Thirty-two people have been questioned in a police operation that raises the prospect of a right-wing bombing campaign against mosques. Police are said to have recovered a British National party membership card and other right-wing literature during a raid on the home of one suspect charged under the Terrorism Act. In England’s largest seizure of a suspected terrorist arsenal since the IRA mainland bombings of the early 1990s, rocket launchers, grenades, pipe bombs and dozens of firearms have been recovered in the past six weeks during raids on more than 20 properties. Several people have been charged and more arrests are imminent. Current police activity is linked to arrests in Europe, New Zealand and Australia. Read more at: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/c...icle6638139.ece

Found this on kalki. http://www.gurmatparkash.com/index.php?title=Kalki_Avtaar

Seeing as you are all rushing to answer my question on Mehdi...... Found this on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi What or who do people think kalki is?