fatehsingh

He's obviously confused Namdharis with some other group probably. It is quite funny there's actually a video of some Sardar-looking pedophile on youtube that's labeled as that of a Namdhari even though the guy's pagh is the patiala style and not to mention the comments left by dozens of people correcting the imbacile who posted the video. I find it disturbing how people can be so misguided and relay such false information to others. That's the punjabi version of justice I suppose: "Guilty until proven innocent. And even if proven innocent, I don't really believe you because my Chacha said you're evil!" lol

valli Singh, It is so obvious, based on the question that you asked me, that you really have absolutely NO CLUE about Namdharis other than what you 'heard' from other Namdhari-bashers. As such I am not going to waste my time countering your baseless claims. My only request is to at least have an ounce of fairness and not start judging people blindly. These kind of deeds are what the Mughals did. To answer your question: NO, Namdharis do not perform such kind of meditation. I would be curious to know who gave you this misleading information. If you have more questions, ask and have the ability to accept and understand a different point of view. Otherwise keep quiet, it won't make you less smart, quite the opposite.

Seriously, would it kill you to ask a question instead of making up your own stupid claims? How naive can you seriously be to believe in what you wrote above? Namdharis were 'unchallenged' and left 'free to fester'? Are you blind or something? The Namdharis' Guru had to be sent to exile, an entire parralel Sikhism had to be created (i.e. Singh Sabha Lahore) to fight against the attempts of its propagation (i.e. Singh Sabha Amritsar's endorsement of Namdhari ideology: Anti-British/Guru Ram Singh as 12th Guru of Sikhs). Go on youtube or any Sikh forum website or a so-called 'Gurdwara' and all they do is Namdhari-bashing. The rest of your statements are so full of arrogance and ignorance they don't even deserve a response. Seriously, if you don't know something, there's no point in showing off ignorance. Unless it's your way to 'feel better' about your religion. In which case, you need to reevaluate your religion because obviously you have no pride in it.

Supplemental info from http://barusahib.org/sant/santteja_preaching.asp 17. Seekers on the spiritual way have a common understanding. In this regard, Sant Teja Singh Ji once told that when he was the principal of Khalsa College, Amritsar, he met Baba Kesar Singh Ji, a very famous Namdhari Saint. With his own intution Baba Kesar Singh announced that now the Gurmantra will be delivered openly. (Namdharis still give secret gurmantra in ears, not to be disclosed to others). The same evening when Sant Attar Singh Ji Maharaj entered the diwan hall for the first time he uttered aloud, "Satnam, Satnam, Satnam Ji, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru Ji." All the devotees followed and recited the same words. Thus Sant Attar Singh Ji justified the words of Baba Kesar Singh Ji.

Perhaps because a Faqir is at a much lower political level than a Badshah? Baba usually mean father or grand father, so it probably didn't bother Bhai Gurdas too much to call Guru Nanak his father. It is not comparable to the level of humility of a Patishah calling himself a Faqir. Again I am merely agreeing that it is possible that the scribes wrote the words differently like you suggested. I do not personally know or believe for a fact that it is in fact what Bhai Mani Singh did. Just presenting both sides of the possibilities. For us all 3 are Gurbani and that is what I believe in. Whether Bhai Mani Singh edited a particular Bir when he was preparing it or not makes no difference. Always good to be mindful of the history/possibility though.

Ofcourse. There are claims that Bhai Mani Singh was the one who changed Fakira to Mureeda da because he could not call Guru Gobind Singh a Faqir.

Banda Dynamic Walia, there are 3 variations of this tuk: Haal Fakira/Mureeda/Gareeba Da Kehna. All 3 are Gurbani (written by Guru Gobind Singh). Namdharis prefer to use 'Fakira' because it is the lowest of all 3 in a worldly sense but also the highest in spiritual sense. Many beautiful variations like these existed in the old Birs. A lot has been lost in the effort to 'conform and control'. Similarly there was also a Dasam Granth Sahib whose Chandi Di Vaar was written in the table of contents as 'Vaar Durga Ki' and also had no 'Waheguruji Ki Fateh' but started out straight "Ik Oangkar Sri Bhagautiji Sahai". I forgot the name of the Gurdwara where it was kept. I will try to find out and then perhaps someone can confirm if it is still preserved or replaced by a 'replica' currently.

I did. Sent again just now.

It is not me that has anything to say. It is you, who like the rest of your friends, have no requirement or interest in knowledge but all you want to do is be part of an insult-fest. Which is obviously what this is all about. In all seriousness why would a topic like this be started in the form of an insult rather than a question if it isn't just to get more people to get together and take part in the bashing? If I am not mistaken this type of behaviour is mentioned in Gurbani as 'Thuggi'. Even the question you are now raising, you (should) know very well that it has no other meaning or use other than to create a scene and all you hope for is ohers would chime in and help you in the Namdhari-bashing party, by which you will feel better about your own version of Sikhi. All I can say is "Wah! What great faith and security you have in your faith!" The point is you are raising these futile questions knowing full well that EVERY Sikh jatha and organization looks at and take meanings differently from the Gurbani of the Granth Sahibs. AKJ for their requirement of keski & sometimes rejection of Raagmala, Prof. Darshan Singh for their glorification of Adi Granth and condemnation of Dasam Granth, Budda Dal Nihangs for eating meat, some Taruna Dal Nihangs for NOT eating meat, Nirmalas for the inclusion of Hindu ideology in Sikhism, Singh Sabha for the exclusion of Hindu ideology from Sikhism & shortening Rehras Sahib. I am certain you are not unaware of the above mentioned dilemmas in the Sikh Panth, and yet you are asking this kind of question. Give me a break! Like I said if you are serious my pm is open otherwise have fun, its your life you're wasting.

pm me.

jattboot, haters don't be needing no reason yo.

Actually there are 3 different versions of this tuk in 3 different versions of Dasam Granths. All 3 are approved and we accept the Mureedan da as Gurbani as well. It is just too bad you spineless people can't see beyond your hatred. Maybe one day Hope it makes you feel better about yourselves by ignoring knowledge and insulting other faiths. "Let's just form our own uninformed and neanderthall like opinions and ignore the fact that there are people with actual knowledge who maybe able to answer the differences if we only know how to ask like civilized humanbeings." N30, how did that saying go again about giving a hat to a monkey?

Thanks for sharing. How does that feel? All better now? Should I pat you on the back until you burp as well? Someone's been eating a lot of free Karha parshaad, LOL. Now go read that Sakhi again in Suraj Parkash and see if it really says what you claim or if some overly eager enthusiasts have bloated it with their ideals. Strange that now the issue of caste (that too of the Guru, who is supposed to be without caste) is being brought up by someone from the the 'caste is a hindoo thing' and 'surnames have no place in Sikhism' crowd. What caste is the Sri Adi Granth Sahib by the way? Are all Panj Pyaras also of Sodhi caste as they are supposed to represent Guru Gobind Singh? Is the Panth Guru also only filled with people of Sodhi caste alone? Please, feel free to use the pm option

Chatanga, as far as I know the Sau Sakhi mentions the 12th Guru traveling in many other countries and that 'Budh Singh Guru Ka Sikh' will guide the Sikhs in his absence. Interestingly Guru Hari Singh's previous name also happened to be Budh Singh. I am no expert on the Sau Sakhi and like everyone else I agree it has been corrupted a lot. So I'm sorry I wouldn't be able to answer your questions with regards to 'prophecies' any more than this. Matheen, there are so many differences in the Granth Sahibs of old that have been systematically burnt by those claiming calling them their Guru. Can it also be said that all of the Granth Sahibs that had more or less Banis than the currently approved version of 1430 pages are all less holy and not Gurbani then? When you all can claim that 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki..' is written by Guru Gobind Singh even though it doesn't appear anywhere until the third publishing of Panth Parkash, then what is your basis of questioning someone else's belief based on historical sources? Anyhow I believe Shaheediyan has answered your question much better than I have and that should put it to rest. Otherwise my pm box is open as always. Shaheediyan, per the Namdhari tradition Guru Gobind Singh never got around to officially revise the Sri Adi Granth Sahib ever since due to many aspects including the ongoing onslaught of muslims and the wars he was engaged in or it could also be that he did not want to change the text due to historical/gramatical/poetic importance, we don't claim to know his reasons like those who like to claim things like "Guru Gobind Singh would NEVER live under a disguise! I know because I know him better than you do!", but yet they can't explain why he disguised himself as Uch Da Pir. Nevertheless the text has been left as is in the Granth Sahibs and also appears in the Namdhari Gutkas as it does in the Granth Sahibs as well, without the alteration. We just remember to read it differently when doing the Path. We believe that the Banis of the 9th Guru were added by Guru Gobind Singh very soon after he became Guru in Anandpur Sahib itself and there are physical Birs of the Granth Sahibs that prove this as well. As such we don't believe in the existence of a 'Damdami Bir' either. I believe it was published in the 1970's as well by the Guru Gobind Singh Committee in Punjab that they too were unable to find any historical reference about the preparation of the Damdami Bir. So it isn't only the Namdharis who invented these ideas and believe in them, just that we're probably the only ones left that still believe in them. These things have to be seen from an academic point of view as much as religious point of view. As you know today even the Shasters of Guru Gobind Singh in Hazur Sahib are being 'tarnished' and done maha beadbi of being applied with 'blood' of goats, despite Guru Nanak's Bani 'Je Ratt Lagge Kaprhe, Jama Hoi Paleet'. Ofcourse if you ask them they would claim it is their upbringing and history, same as those who don't believe in Raag Mala. Who can we really question these days? Everyone claims to have Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh in their wallets!

MHK, Strange how those who you claim have their "face" toward the Guru Granths can't even agree if meat eating is the Hukam or not. And those who have done lakhs and lakhs of Paths of Granth Sahib and actually INVENTED the Maryada of Akhand Path are being called to have their "pitth" towards the Gurbani??!! Oh well, the damn Namdharis just deserve to be insulted for whatever reason you can think of I suppose. Why not blame them for global warming too while you're at it? LOL what great knowledge you have.

Matheen that is not only Namdharis who believe in the Sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh changing those words. Kavi Santokh Singh has clearly mentioned in Suraj Parkash that Guru Gobind Singh changed the tuk to 'Faarey'. We are merely following what we believe is Guru Gobind Singh's Hukam. Furthermore, even former head Granthi of Harimandir Sahib, Kartar Singh Kalaswalia has admitted to the same in one of his granths stating "Neele Kapparh Phaar, Chitte Kappar Paher, Guruji Guru Granth Di Tuk Ultai Utthe". So clearly it is not a "namdhari" invention. If you have a genuine point or question, feel free to pm me.

Shaheediyan I don't know if you are misreading things here or just never knew it in the first place, but Namdharis have always believed in Guru Granths and 40 Vaars of Bhaiji's Banis as Supreme above all other Granths. Satguru Ram Singh will return to Punjab. We believe it is the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh and it will be fulfilled. There is no question or doubt about this for any Namdhari. All our Ardaas and prayer are for his Darshan only. "If the prophecy isn't fullfilled will Namdharis give gur-gaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or continue with their Gur-Gaddi and revise the prophecy?" That is a stupid question to ask any Namdhari, sorry but I'm just answering in the same blunt manner you asked the question. We don't consider that question for a fraction of a second. I will send you a PM and let's continue there.

http://sikh-heritage.co.uk/misc/conference...Conferences.htm The following is a report which was published in 'The Tribune' of the 18th October 1934 CONFERENCE OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GURU NANAK 20000 SIKHS GATHER IN SRI BHAINI SAHIB Sri Bhaini Sahib, Oct. 1 5 A representative conference of all sects of the Sikhs, who believe in Guru Nanak Dev and his teaching, was convened at Sri Bhaini Sahib by Namdhari Darbar, Preparations were made on a scale and no pain was spared by the convenors to make the conference a big success. A spacious Pandal with a beautiful white gateway was constructed for the purpose. It was tastefully decorated and equipped with loud speakers; Special arrangements were made for the distinguished visitors. Numbering several hundreds and a big city of camps extended all around the small village of Bhaini Sahib. Suitable arrangements were made at Ludhiana for arranging conveyance of the Intending visitors, as Bhaini Sahib, the religious seat of Namdhari Sikhs, is situated at about fifteen miles from Ludhiana and is of great historical importance being the last abode of Shri Guru Ram Singh who is regarded 12th Guru of the Sikhs by his followers and was deported by the British Government in 1872. Over 20.000 men and women joined the conference. Several kitchens were running day and night to for everybody. Besides Namdharis, Akalis Nirmalas. Udhasis. Sewa Panthis. Nihangs. Sahijdharis. Adanshahis, almost all-different sects who traced their cult from the teachings of Sri Adi-Granth Sahib responded to the invitation. Leading members of the Chief Khalsa Diwan, Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Commiftee. Shiromani Akali Dal, Central Akali Dal. Udasin Mahan Mandal, Nirmal Mahan Mandal and other responsible bodies were specially invited. PRESIDENTS' PROCESSION. The President-elect was received by members of Namdhari Darbar, and prominent Sikh leaders outside the village and was taken on foot in a big procession to the Panda!. The procession was headed by Seven Jathas of Namdharis and followed the command of Sardar Atma Singh of Rawalpindi presented added great beauty to the procession. On reaching the Pandal. Sant Inder Singh Chakrawarti explained the aims and objects of the conference after which the prominent members retired to Hari Mandar for holding the Subjects Committee meeting. Heated discussions continued for over two hours. The aims and the objects for which the conference was convened were discussed at length and everyone aftempted to praise it in his own way; Professor Jodh Singh of Chief Khalsa Diwan, Bhai Nidhan Slngh Alam Namdhari Darbar and Sant Kishan Singh of Nirmal Mahan Mandal and Sardar Dalip Slngh Vice-President. local Gurdwara Committee. Amritsar took leading part in the discussions. The aims and objects were worded as follows: "that the idea of convening the conference is to unite different sects of the Sikhs who believe in Adi Granth and Dasam Granth. The Following resolutions were passed 1. That this conference requests all sects of the Sikhs that the preaching of Gurbani be their foremost duty in their Jathas at their own seats. 2. That all preachers, missionaries, musicians. Editors and leaders should feel their responsibility and should only do constructive work and not destructive work. 3. That the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, local Gurdwaras Parbandhak Committees and other Sikh Societies be requested they should always take fittest persons from any sect for the post of a Granthi, preacher or other responsible office-bearer and they should particularly appoint fit persons of that sect in whose possession that particular Gurdwara was before its being taken over by the Gurdwara Parbhandhak Committee. 4. That in order to save the situation from any legal technicalities and achieve, unity in the house of the Guru all pending cases relating to Gurdwara other than historical Gurdwaras filed under section 7, of the Gurdwara Act should he given up. The first sitting of the Subjects Committee was over after about 2 1/2 hours when the members attended 'the open session. Sant Inder Singh Chakarwarti, Chairman of the Reception Committee, read his address, wherein he thanked the delegates and the visitors for responding to the invitation and explained the aims and the objects for which the conference was convened. It was the genuine desire of His Holiness Maharaj Guru Partap Singh Ji, head of the Namdhari's, that are sects of the Sikhs believing in Guru Granth Sahab and Guru Nanak Dev should respect each other and remove all differences, which were damaging the Sikh cause. Party spirit among the followers of Guru Nanak was the chief cause of split This Holiness, the Bhai Sahab Bhai Arjan Singh Chief of Bagarian (photo below). President of the Conference, read his brief address in which the need for co-operation among all the sects of the Sikhs was stressed and it was pointed out that unless this was achieved any further progress was out of question. Any discussion on political question was seriously avoided. The proceedings of the first day ended after the addresses were over. Courtesy: The Tribune, 18th October 1934

N30 you naive little .....!

mit, let's not bring back the old argument about whether or not the Granth Sahibs can give Naam in the novice's ear as written in the Sri Adi Granth Sahib: 'Mantar Dio Gur Kaan' which is carried out by Panj Pyare in mainstream sikhism. The argument is a waste of time as everyone is subject to their own beliefs and personal interpretation. Shaheediyan there's no way we can know for sure unless with time travel. Again this brings back the old argument if 'written revelation' is the same or has the same effects revelation of Gurmantar via dehdhari Gurus in the past.

From what I understand reading the original post, the website sikhism.us is saying the same thing that Namdharis believe in, i.e. Naam can only be recieved from the Guru or those approved by him. Per my understanding of the Akal Takhat's maryada, the Panj Pyare are representative of the Guru and the only time Gurmantar is told to a novice by the panj pyare also happens to be during the Amrit Sanchar ceremony only. So in other words all those who recite Naam themselves without having recived it from what can be perceived as the Guru or his representative in their traditions can be seen as unfruitful. Not to say there are no exceptions but even Kabir had to come up with a way to hear the word 'Raam' from Ramanand who was the Guru of that time. As per Mr. Shaheediyan's question, Naam is given to non-Amritdharis in the same way Diwan Nand Lal and others were s well. Those who fall in this category are Sahejdharis per the Namdhari tradition. A modern example would be the late Ustad Vilayat Khan and family.

Not just 2 horses, Bidhi Chand is also said to have stolen earrings, necklaces and other jewellery items from the Begum of the mughal and gave them to the wives of the Guru, gaining much praises from them. I remember having a real problem digesting this as I thought stealing was 'universally forbidden'. But it seems to me that the Guru's Hukam takes priority and creates an exception over communal morals and even other Hukams given to other Sikhs at times.

Kam1825, which Rut and which page of the Sooraj Parkash mentions Damdami Bir, please advise.

Mithar that is true about Namdhari Maryada requiring Bibeki. In the olden days before there were Stainless Steel utensils, Sarabh Loh was given preference. With regards to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's family history, his great grand father was a Sewak of Baba Ajapal Singh and his father also wrote a book about all the details of Baba Ajapal Singh, or as they called him "Guru Singhji". Translation of Bhai Kahn Singh's own written article about Baba Ajapal Singh is on the http://namdhari.faithweb.com website under 'Nander 1708 link'. It was also posted on this forum by someone a while back if I'm not mistaken. It is a common knowledge, even that shastarvidya.com site agrees, that Bhai Kahn Singh was of the same beliefs as his ancestors who served Guru Singhji that Baba Ajapal Singh and Guru Gobind Singh were one and the same until his persecution by Teja Singh and the likes. Nevertheless, this is all besides the point and topic of this thread and apparently valli singh, who I originally posted to counter his point, is obviously too arrogant to acknowledge that like most people here he has 0% knowledge about Namdharis other than what he has read from outdated anti-Namdhari books and probably never went to a single Namdhari Samagam in Bhaini Sahib. So without wasting any more time, as always if someone has something to say, kindly feel free to pm me, otherwise let's abide by the Guru's Hukam in the Sri Adi Granth Sahib: "Sarvar Hans Dhure Hi Mela, Khasme Aivai Bhana" and be thankful to the Satguru.

From what I know Namdharis don't question authenticity of Gurbani in the Sri Adi Granth Sahib like bhasaurhia group is infamous for and from what I understand AKJ has no formal ties to Bhasaurhia group either, I could be wrong on this however. Teja Singh was also one of the primary anti-living-Guru leaders who was instrumental in getting Bhai Kahn Singh to give up his ancestorial belief in Baba Ajapal Singh being Guru Gobind Singh, which is taking away from Namdhari beliefs instead of gleaning from. So to equate Teja Singh's beliefs with Namdharis' is baseless. Someone's reading too much shastarvidya.com or whatever that site's name is. I don't know what kind of Simran techniques AKJ group uses but it is dumb to criticize anyone's method of prayer or meditation.