Niranjana

Neo - any news from you?

"True to his word, Baba Joginder Singh does not allow for anyones caste to be asked, one bata for all. There is no discrimination on any grounds, in amrit sanchar, langar, darbar sahib. The fauj at Rakbha seems to be steadily growing and many prominent heads of Budha Dal have also shifted to Rakbha" Thanks for this - it pretty much confirms the point that I and Tonyhp3 have raised from our otherwise very different points of view on the matter of caste discrimination and the organisation that today styles itself as the Buddha Dal.

Agreed, which is why it is hilarious to find practices such as recitation of 'special banis' over a glass of water and drinking the water as if it has some magical power because of the mantra - the obvious issue here being, that if the mantra can affect the water which is external to us, then surely it can affect us, our blood and our minds? I agree that hyper-rationalists like IOSS, Kala Afghana and other similar 'Bhasuarias' grossly miss the point and are still living in a fantasy world which has just come out of the European Enlightenment! I think we need to distinguish between a practice (here the repetition of a mantra or particular 'paath') and what is known as 'totaratnaa' which is critiqued by the Gurus too and with many things now prevalent in the Panth (particularly over the past 100 years) has its origins with Buddhist influences rather than the dreaded Hindu influence that Sikhs are all so concerned about. I note your example of your ex-Amritdhari friend, however the problem we have is again an issue that has arisen from largely post-enlightenment Western thinking which many Indians have acquired via their western schooling. Whatever way one looks at the world, when using such an approach, will eventually lead to a duality of Science vs. Religion, Logic/Reason vs. Faith/Mysticism etc etc. Such black and white issues did not traditionally exist in traditional civilisations, be they Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Indian or elsewhere - many of these have been the birth place of what is known today as 'science' and indeed also 'skepticism' and also have been centres for traditional forms of Christiantiy, Islam and Hinduism - i.e. this 'science/logic vs. religion/spirituality' issue didn't arise there! Why I raise this point is that there is a disturbing trend within Gurdwaras and 'religious' Sikh circles to moan about people who are 'educated' and make use of tools such as 'logic' or 'science' etc, it has become too familiar a sight to walk into a Gurdwara and hear that Kathakar or Ragi deriding 'parhey likhey' as some form of abomination - this is nothing but dangerous and simply brews a culture of anti-intellectualism - something that is already rife within Punjabi Sikhs for a variety of factors, not all internal necessarily, but whatever the case, why should we allow this to continue. As for the newly formed middle class 'educated' Punjabi Sikh community, maybe read up a little more using your much prized 'education' and look into matters such as 'skepticism', particularly 'empirical skepticism' and realise the folly of some of your educated rationalist brethen and their over reliance on "logic" and "reason".

Londondajatt: "pride or no pride, i do not see why i should deny i am jatt" No one is asking you to do this - which is precisely my point, is it really any different from describing oneself as a Punjabi or English or as Black or South Asian? Not really, since there are peculiarities to Punjabis that are not common amongst other South Asians, likewise there exist certain cultural peculiarities to Jatts which are not common amongst say Khatris and vice versa - these 'peculiarities' are not necessarily bad or even 'against Sikhi', i.e the styles/structure of families, food, hospitality, language etc etc. The "caste" biradari amongst Punjabis is not the same as the 'caste' system advocated by the Law of Manu, however the danger is that as one group experiences upward social mobility, they will seek to adopt the customs of the former 'upper class'. This is evident amongst Sikhs, where post-Banda Singh Bahadur, lured by the prospect of a possible Sikh empire, Jatts converted to Sikhism en masse and since that time we see gradual adoption by Jatts of corrupted Brahmin type practices (i.e. the now famous, only a Jatt can be the Sri Mahant of a Nirmala Akhara through to the forbidding of so-called 'lower castes' from entry to the Harimandir Sahib). This is no different to what we commonly see in the Western world and what may describe as the 'nouveau riche' - the rise to prominance and sudden wealth of a previously 'lower class' and the practices and lifestyle that tend to follow in such cases. Hence, why I full see where Shaheediyan is coming down hard on us all with his posts and why Gurbani ultimately supports his stance. "also the jatts that asked fro payment, were they the brars perhaps?" Yes - which leads nicely into the assertion made by Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale Brar Khalsa Jee that he supposedly descended from the one Brar Jatt who on that occasion didn't ask for payment - something that the Sikh populace readily accepted without query! I guess that General Brar who led the Military Attack on the Harimandir Sahib was a descendent of the other Brar Jatts? What is really interesting is that as time has passed since the 1980s and more and more Jatts begin to adopt anti-Khalistani sentiments (usually owing to them wanting a new excuse to shed their Kesh rather than anything with the underlying cause), it is very easy to see a growing trend where the during the lead up into the 1980s, Sant Jarnail Singh Bindranwale was seen as a great saviour of the people and many Jatts were delighted to have one of their kin in the limelight, however now with the growing anti-Khalistan sentiment, it is only a matter of time that Jatts will begin to pride themselves on their new heroes (General Brar and even the lowly KPS Gill) as the saviours of Punjab from Sikh terrorists! Have a look at Jattworld, this trend is already evident. Bottom line, Khalistanis shot down General Vaida and several other high level officials during the 1980s and 1990s, yet the very people responsible for the gross attack on the Harimandir Sahib and slaughter of many young Sikhs in fake encounters, namely two great Jatt Soldiers (General Brar and KPS Gill) walk freely (in the case of General Brar, without any protection!) Khalistanis love to pride themselves on gunning down an unarmed female, however what happens when it comes to their Jatt brethren such Gill and Brar, why are they pardoned?!!! "Also i do not see jatts crying over the deeds of a few jatts" No you won't, since they are happily unaware of the deeds of numerous Jatts throughout Sikh history and the damage they have done and continue to do - of course, its racist or unsikh of me to say this in 'this day and age' because the PC club will shoot me down!

Shaheediyan, again I fully understand your stance on the matter and the inspiration for it (and why the Bhagats made use of their caste titles, altough this does lead into another discussion, which I'll save for another time), to make my earlier statement clearer, I am simply playing devil's advocate with respect to Londondajatt's statements.

"Vent your questions and doubts and dispel them with the light of vichaar. Do not let 'faith' create a wall between you and Guru Ji" Thanks for this - it is of paramount importance to us all and well very put by you in your post. Best regards, Niranjana.

Amardeep, Rattan Singh Bhangoo's text will provide ample discussion of that subject - otherwise maybe ask on Jattworld.com or even better write a letter to that so-called great 'scholar' who authored "History of the Jatts" and see if in his so-called 'historical research and analysis' he bothered to consider this event and others like it from the Guru-period? FYI. Those not familiar with this text (History of the Jatts), it's really great stuff -apparently all the Khalsa insignias (Kesh and Kirpan in particular) were traditionally Jatt customs which the Gurus chose to adopt for the Sikhs!!! What's even funnier is when this 'Jatt' scholar makes this statement, all the Jatts get 'proper happy' however when Hew McLeod suggests the same, then he automatically becomes an agent of the GOI!!!

I cannot see where in my earlier post I have made any sarcastic comment. I have simply made reference to a recording of a Katha by Gyani Jee in which he made certain comments which obviously raise certain questions. I really don't see what relevance this has to the point I made - I am not doubting his sangat with people held in high esteem. I am simply asking a question about his assertion regarding Sobha Singh's paintings. Again, when have I suggested to the contrary? In my comments to date on this thread, I am simply highlighting that surrounding any legitimate practice or theory there is an uncanny knack for a whole variety of nonsense pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo to drummed up - such as with the example provided above for the 3HO 'sadhana for the aquarian age'. I note you have ignored my other comments regarding the much respected Sant Attar Singh Mastunanewale reciting this shabd (i.e. I am not in any ridiculing the practice). Ragmala, you obviously reacting emotionally to my comment and in the process have got the wrong end of the stick. Yes you are correct in that you clearly haven't heard about Sobha Singh's paintings and as result are making an accusation against me for something I didn't say in the first place! I am not questioning anyone's "spiritual advancement", I am raising the question over Sobha Singh's paintings (and no I don't have it in for him since I have a fair view of them around my own house), maybe when you have calmed down, you could look into the issue I am actually questioning. Actually no. I don't fully understand quite a few things from some rather simple biology to some quantitative financial models to rocket science but that doesn't make any of that 'mythical' to me, likewise I don't fully understand why humans sleep or what exactly happens to us at death, but again that does not make any of these things 'mythical'. Yes, you don't 'have to' convince me of anything or me convince you of anything, this is a forum for sharing ideas and raising questions, I'm not here to do anything other than that! In any event, what's wrong with something being 'mythical' - every civilisation has its 'mythology' and it is central to its development in many respects.

"Irecall the reason for him getting kicked out of the panthwas printing saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without Raagmala?" Yes, the as yet unanswered question from the Tapoban glory days is whether or not the Saroop of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they house in Tapoban Gurdwara includes Raagmala Bani... ...a definative answer to this would make very interesting news.

Mithr, "Using your argument, one could say anything against anyone to prove something without any base. I mean, it's almost like me saying that Rattan Singh Bhangoo and his book Panth Parkash were British inlfuanced because the British commissioned him to writes that book. Or maybe a Brahmgiani like Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hoti Mardan was British inflaunced since he served in the British army. Using these types of arguments quite honestly don't make much sense" You seem to be missing the point and in any event, it is not in my interest to convince you of another viewpoint, I have simply laid out my own supported with reasons where needed. Actually, Rattan Singh Bhangoo's text is influenced by the British in many ways, which why the modern Nihang theory of them being the one true Khalsa and deriving so much of their supporting rhetoric from this text is quite amusing. The fact that you make the statement: "How exactly did Bhai Sahib use semitic methodology, with reference to his writings of course. He has only quoted from the primary Sikh canonical writings when writing about Gurmat" Clearly shows you are still unable to understand the point I am raising - I'll leave you to consider the comments again since you are clearly barking up the wrong tree at the moment (hint: several other posters here, who do not necessarily agree with me have managed to understand the underlying point - maybe read their comments).

"weggie warriors" Are you sure you mean that? Surely you meant 'veggie' and 'weggie' which sounds rather like something else implying that they have their Kacheras caught...

Shaheediyan - I do not doubt the words of the Guru (i.e. warning us against the dangers of caste-discrimination), however the statement that "we do not believe in caste" simply does not hold true in practice, otherwise why would great Bhagats repeatedly make reference to their own caste, high or low.

That's very nice - I recall Gyani Thakur Singh also referring to Sobha Singh as someone with his dasam duar faculties activated...which makes me wonder if Gyani Ji actually is aware of the source for Sobha Singh's paintings or if he like many others falls for the myth that surrounds this artist.

Exactly - so, why should Sikhs waste time seeking to convince this fringe personality cult group? We have far bigger fish to fry!

Exactly - so, why should Sikhs waste time seeking to convince this fringe personality cult group? We have far bigger fish to fry!

This discussion is a waste of time. The AKJ will always deny Raagmala as Gurbani and have their own takes on what constitutes Kakkars etc etc. Good for them and glad it helps them on their path. What we are concerned with is Sikhism, the AKJ are free to follow whatever they like - the Sikh Rehit Maryada, in the tradition of tolerance exemplified by the Sikh Gurus and several Sikhs thereafter through today, even accomodates their peculiarities regarding subjects such as Keski, Ragamala, Vegetarianism etc, however the AKJ in their typical intolerant and authoritarian attitude cannot even accept the rest of us as "sikhs" - it is a laughable. The debate is useless, Sikhs simply need to protect the Sikh Rehit Maryada from infiltrators such as the AKJ (who most Sikhs are quite happy to let live) and ensure that young impressionable Sikhs are not misled into loosing faith in Gurbani or the tradition by the false propaganda of groups like the AKJ.

Londondajatt, I will take a different view from Shaheediyan on this matter (although perfectly understand where he is coming from and admire his idealism). When you make the statement such as: ""For example may i have pride in my jatt heritage, including warriors shaheeds and kings, or am i not allowed to?" I can understand why you feel that way, at some level we all identify as either Sikh/Muslim/Jewish/etc and/or Canadian/British/etc and then maybe Punjabi/Marathi/European/etc and matters such as Jatt/Tarkhan/Khatri/etc are not necessarily any different however we wish to dress it up - i.e. the nice argument that these are man made titles and we should all just view ourselves as Human is not going to get us very far...in secular circles it is common to hear that biologically 'race' does not exist, however I think we can see that in day to day life it clearly does - for better or worse, depending on the situation. So, personally, if one identifies themselves as a Jatt is not in itself implying that one to be judging others on the basis of 'caste' anymore than someone describing themselves as 'white' is in itself implying that someone to be a racist, i.e. the statement "I don't believe in caste" is invalid. What I will say, however is if one chooses to align themselves with any of the above mentioned groups, then deal with the good and the bad - I align myself as a Sikh and make no inhibition of being proud and honoured to be part of this great tradition, however as many who know me here, I have no qualms in critiquing Punjabi Sikhs, including those of my own 'biradhari' or others that I am married into or have relations with - likewise, have your Jatt pride if you so choose, but then don't cry when ugly truths about your people emerge, be a man and face up to it! On that note, I would recommend that all the Jatt fans have a careful read of the rather detailed account Rattan Singh Bhangoo provides for the events leading up to the Shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the role that the Jatts had in the numerous tortures that Guru Sahib were subjected to (something that most modern day English Sikh History Books or Gyanis also fail to mention), likewise read the accounts of the Jatt "warriors" who demanded payment from Guru Gobind Singh when the heat got turned up during combat and saw fit to leave his side (and no I am not referring to the 40 Mukte, they actually came back to the Guru's side and didn't demand payment either). Sikh History has been repeatedly looted by Jatts over the past 300 years and conveniently for them, in today's politically correct environment, it is taboo to raise such issues since one gets accused of being anti-Jatt and/or racist, yet the Jatts can continue to enjoy the power they have usurped from others by nothing more than larger numerical representation and critique other groups who have only recently began to experience upward social mobility (and that too at their own efforts) as being divisive for openly declaring their caste affiliations. Sorry boys, you can't have it both ways, keep your pride if you so desire, but don't fail to clean under your beds once in while!

Mekhane'ch Jannat wrote: "I don't think it is the judaeo christian viewpoint that these individuals view Sikhi through, but, i'd say more accurately, 'the diluted literalism which grew out of the Judaeo-christian tradition'." I have no issues with this clarification/suggestion, just wanted to add further that it was not only Bhai Randhir Singh or Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria who were affected by this view, several others from the same period were too - it is very clear when one reads mass-produced literature published from the early 20th century in Punjab that it is not only the impact of Christian educational establishment but that very fact that the rulers of the time (the British) were themselves (predominantly Protestant) Christians.

Amardeep wrote: 1."going by your logic we could also exclude khande di pahul as none of the primary sources of Sikhism mention any of this (except for the 41.vaar of bhai "Gurdas" which is a dodgy text itself)" Response: Amardeep, having had previous contact with you, I am sure you know better than to raise this objection. The Amrit Sanchar has been and continues to be very much a living tradition (a 'vidi' that has been passed on from generation to generation), hence its adoption in all rehitnama literature (regardless of their other issues) and inclusion within the present day Sikh Rehit Maryada. The notion of a Khalsa Raaj and belief in prophecies (several of which are conflicting and/or based on spurious texts written by non-Sikhs) is hardly comparing 'apples with apples'. 2. "Prem Sumarag and Sau sakhi mention Khalsa Raj, and there are a few lines in Akal Ustat (in the sawaye thats part of nitnem i think) that gives a prophecy about better days to come" Response: Again, I would be (a) grateful for any quotes you could provide in this respect and ( you are again making nothing more than mere conjecture - 'better days to come' does not in any way (of itself) imply the Khalsa Raaj that is being spoken of here - which again I will re-iterate refers to the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh (in the various texts that people keep paying lip service towards) and not as some liberal interpretations like to suggest "the pure" of any tradition.

Xylitol, "As for the main sources (SGGS, SDGS etc), I don't know of any specific reference to Khalsa Raj from those, although Dasam Granth Sahib discusses Kalki Avtaar, who is yet to come. Perhaps there is a reference or implied reference to the Raj in there, I don't know" Precisely - you don't know! You and Mithr above have at best made use of conjecture (re: Kalki Avtar) and appeals to authority (re: famous Sant so and so said this, hence it must be true) which do nothing to address any of the queries raised above. Perhaps read my questions once more and kindly seek to find supporting statements for the notion of Khalsa Raaj from the primary Sikh Scriptures. Shaheediyan - thanks for the post, it is precisely what I am driving towards.

"Naam Dhridh from the AKJ (or one of several other jathas) to get the required naam drirdh" My comments are as follows: 1. The very term "naam dhrir" is a misnomer. This is us (i.e. the person) that needs to undergo "dhrir" not 'naam', which Gurbani teaches such is beyond perfection. 2. The AKJ (Tapoban in particular) love to use the caveat "one of several other jathas", however who are these 'others' who also part the 'naam dhrir' in the same manner as the AKJ? Once identified, would be interesting to look at the implications... 3. The method of imparting naam by the AKJ claimed to be some authentic gurmaryada involves hyperventilation which is taught during their amrit sanchars by one member of the Punj Pyare effectively bear hugging the neophyte (so that their stomachs make contact) and showing them the 'correct' manner in which to breathe - those familiar with certain Hindu Tantrik traditions may begin to similarities here, however rest assured the AKJ are not a Hindu revivalist sect. To clear any doubts, only male Punj Pyare will 'demonstrate' the technique to male neophyte - as the AKJ do not have the hang-ups over female Punj Pyare (unlike other 'puratan' sampradhas like the DDT), they can accomodate the physical contact aspect of their tradition without too much concern (so much so, that many AKJ female neophytes wish to be allowed to wear bana without a pyjama like their male brothers in arms, all in the name of 'equality' - Tapoban has several discussions on this front for those who are interested).

Mithr: "If anything I actually found Bhai Randhir SIngh writing against Bhasourias in his books, which only makes it even more ironic when people still out of ignorance try their best to associate this great Mahapursh and freedom fighter with that heretic, and it's even more ignorant that you are calling this great man a "disciple" of Teja Singh Bhasour, when in fact Bhai Randhir Singh was and alway will remain a disciple of Guru Gobind Singh Jee" Mithr, It is not my place to judge Bhai Sahib and his accolades, I am simply referring to facts that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was disciple of Teja Singh Bhasauria and whilst he may have broken off ties with him, it is evident that many other ideas of Teja Singh continue to live on within Bhai Sahib's thoughts and views. "If you will Niranjana, please give reference (that is if you have even read any of his books) with regard to your assertion that he was Christian influanced" Perhaps you are misunderstanding the point. I am NOT accusing Bhai Sahib of being a Christian missionary (which is what your reaction seems to be implying), my reference relates to the methodology applied by "Semetic" traditions when analysing or explaning their scriptures and customs - these stem from a particular worldview which is not necessarily consistent with that arising in India, and hence (as much as many Bhausauria types here with hate to admit), Sikhism. Bhai Sahib along with many others of his generation were educated in Christian schools, it is only natural for them to adopt such means - I myself am educated at a Grammar School, there are many things I believed during my teens and early 20's with regard to my then understanding of Sikhism which was clearly influenced by my educational upbringing - needless to say, I can look back and smile at the situation. To answer your question, yes I have read Bhai Sahib's books and those of Bhai Rama Singh too - I would ask that you kindly reconsider my initial comment and to what end I am making it: "who whilst studying in a largely Christian influenced educational institution, was clearly affected by such methods when approaching their own tradition, particularly with regard to the status of the Guru, of Gurbani and their origins" "I may not be AKJ, but it's only because of reading this Mahapursh's books that I stopped cutting my hair and came into Sikhi, and for that I will ever respect that Pooran Mahapursh" That is very commendable, however I can't see the relevance here, "Sant Baba" Maan Singh (that great Baba with the sex slaves) also administered Amrit to many people, doesn't necessarily change things with regard to his sex slaves. Let's leave the emotions aside for a moment. Fateh Singh and Shaheediyan seem to have followed this discussion appropriately with their exchange which I look forward to reading more of...

Amardeep mentioned: “Prem Sumarag talks about the return of the Guru to create Satyuga and maybe a Khalsa Raj. Sau Sakhi and i think uggardanti also talks about it.†Again, the same points apply from above, please could we have a reference from the primary scriptures – surely something as important as the return of the Guru or the establishment of Khalsa Raaj would be mentioned in these scriptures. “Guru Nanaks bani also talks about Truth prevailing in the end, and falsehood being destroyed†This is fine – however why does this necessarily imply “Khalsa Raaj�

Xylitol mentioned: “Khalsa Raj is mentioned in sau sakhi, as well as some other writings of the Guru†You are suggesting in your statement above that the Sau Sakhi is certainly a text that can be attributed in full to Guru Gobind Singh – this is going to open up a very large can of worms, I will refrain from doing so in the interest of space and in the knowledge that many on the forum are aware of these issues (and those who are not tend to have the common sense to research things, unlike the majority of other Sikh forums!). So, referring back to my original question, please could you provide a reference from the accepted Sikh scriptures (i.e. SGGS, SDGS, Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan and the writings of Bhai Nand Lal) – presumably by your closing comment (“as well as some other writings of the Guruâ€) you have some suitable reference, please do bring this forward. “It's unfortunate that the doomsday babas you refer to didnt' have the foresight (or were just fakes) to mention that such things cannot have set dates.†I think the reality is that these Babas were charlatans and that again plenty of gullible Sikhs saw fit to follow. “people do simran/paath, the date gets pushed back. There is no set date that I know of for Khalsa Raj†How convenient a reason! This is precisely what the Doomsday Baba from the 1990s said when his prophecy did not come true – you the Sangat and I (the Baba) have done lots of simran and special paaths which have saved the world! Fantastic!!! Is it not abundantly clear what is happening here??? “WW3 is expected to start in our lifetimes, it is sometime during or after this that sikhs gain foothold in India. From there it spreads.†According to whose prediction is WW3 expected to start? My friend, I suggest you look into the very real empirical evidence over even the last 100 years of human predictions in all fields and see how poor our track record is at predicting events and discoveries! Life, my brother, is not a bell shaped normal distribution (although this precisely the type of mindset modern schooling teaches us to adopt) and this is precisely why a whole host of errors occur in our predictive abilities…have a look at history of WW1 and WW2 and how many people (possessing considerable accolades I may add) so grossly misjudged so many factors of the conflict…even better, just look at the forecasts made for the coming century back in 1925 and again in 1975 and see what really unfolded against these foolish predictions! “Khalsa raj is rule over the world by the truly spiritually enlightened of any religion.†Xylitol, this is nothing but a liberalisation of the tradition. The term “Raj Karega Khalsa†comes from Gyani Gyan Singh Nirmala amongst various other sources, it is very clear that they refer exclusively to the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh and not as many like to twist today as “the pure†of any spiritual tradition, all religions are one, blah blah. This is precisely why I am asking for a reference from the sources I mentioned above and my other questions. “I have no clue about it's legal system, nor do I see the point of getting into a debate over something so pointless.†How can one have a ‘raj’ without a legal system?!!! To regard something such as this, which is crucial to any civilisation, as “pointless†pretty much sums up the real understanding of such matters by those pushing these world domination agendas! “It's going to happen sometime in our lifetimes, after intense struggle and difficulty, that's all I know. There are numerous bhramgyani, not just your pindu doomsday babas, who have spoken on this. Baba Thakur Singh ji and Sant Jarnail Singh ji, Baba Kulwant Singh ji of Takht Hazoor Sahib, if you get to know the sants of any sampradha well, I imagine they can tell you something about it. Including that it's probably not too far off in the future.†As mentioned above, many of these “numerous bhramgyani†and not just as you put it the “pindu doomsday babas†will be captured within the example I provided of every decade over the past 100 years have seen numerous claims and suggestions to the alleged “the end of the world†and that it’s “not too far off in the futureâ€. Of course, when some Hindu Sadhu or Muslim Fakir mentioned events such as this, then we call superstition, however when it comes from a Sikh Sant, then it’s all good!!!

Xylitol mentioned: “Khalsa Raj is mentioned in sau sakhi, as well as some other writings of the Guru†You are suggesting in your statement above that the Sau Sakhi is certainly a text that can be attributed in full to Guru Gobind Singh – this is going to open up a very large can of worms, I will refrain from doing so in the interest of space and in the knowledge that many on the forum are aware of these issues (and those who are not tend to have the common sense to research things, unlike the majority of other Sikh forums!). So, referring back to my original question, please could you provide a reference from the accepted Sikh scriptures (i.e. SGGS, SDGS, Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan and the writings of Bhai Nand Lal) – presumably by your closing comment (“as well as some other writings of the Guruâ€) you have some suitable reference, please do bring this forward. “It's unfortunate that the doomsday babas you refer to didnt' have the foresight (or were just fakes) to mention that such things cannot have set dates.†I think the reality is that these Babas were charlatans and that again plenty of gullible Sikhs saw fit to follow. “people do simran/paath, the date gets pushed back. There is no set date that I know of for Khalsa Raj†How convenient a reason! This is precisely what the Doomsday Baba from the 1990s said when his prophecy did not come true – you the Sangat and I (the Baba) have done lots of simran and special paaths which have saved the world! Fantastic!!! Is it not abundantly clear what is happening here??? “WW3 is expected to start in our lifetimes, it is sometime during or after this that sikhs gain foothold in India. From there it spreads.†According to whose prediction is WW3 expected to start? My friend, I suggest you look into the very real empirical evidence over even the last 100 years of human predictions in all fields and see how poor our track record is at predicting events and discoveries! Life, my brother, is not a bell shaped normal distribution (although this precisely the type of mindset modern schooling teaches us to adopt) and this is precisely why a whole host of errors occur in our predictive abilities…have a look at history of WW1 and WW2 and how many people (possessing considerable accolades I may add) so grossly misjudged so many factors of the conflict…even better, just look at the forecasts made for the coming century back in 1925 and again in 1975 and see what really unfolded against these foolish predictions! “Khalsa raj is rule over the world by the truly spiritually enlightened of any religion.†Xylitol, this is nothing but a liberalisation of the tradition. The term “Raj Karega Khalsa†comes from Gyani Gyan Singh Nirmala amongst various other sources, it is very clear that they refer exclusively to the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh and not as many like to twist today as “the pure†of any spiritual tradition, all religions are one, blah blah. This is precisely why I am asking for a reference from the sources I mentioned above and my other questions. “I have no clue about it's legal system, nor do I see the point of getting into a debate over something so pointless.†How can one have a ‘raj’ without a legal system?!!! To regard something such as this, which is crucial to any civilisation, as “pointless†pretty much sums up the real understanding of such matters by those pushing these world domination agendas! “It's going to happen sometime in our lifetimes, after intense struggle and difficulty, that's all I know. There are numerous bhramgyani, not just your pindu doomsday babas, who have spoken on this. Baba Thakur Singh ji and Sant Jarnail Singh ji, Baba Kulwant Singh ji of Takht Hazoor Sahib, if you get to know the sants of any sampradha well, I imagine they can tell you something about it. Including that it's probably not too far off in the future.†As mentioned above, many of these “numerous bhramgyani†and not just as you put it the “pindu doomsday babas†will be captured within the example I provided of every decade over the past 100 years have seen numerous claims and suggestions to the alleged “the end of the world†and that it’s “not too far off in the futureâ€. Of course, when some Hindu Sadhu or Muslim Fakir mentioned events such as this, then we call superstition, however when it comes from a Sikh Sant, then it’s all good!!!