Lucky

Same here !! I understand what he's saying, but you can't just stand next to an apple tree waiting for it to fall !!! Besides, I'm no expert but I am aware that certain ''fallen'' fruits are wasted as they begin to breakdown biologically and become more acidic. For eg.. I am well aware that in Italy, where they produce some of the worlds best olive oil... they never use any fallen olives because they would affect the oil quality. These fallen olives are usually wasted and deemed unfit ! This is all because of their higher acidity.

well if............. ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥ Sabẖ gobinḏ hai sabẖ gobinḏ hai gobinḏ bin nahī ko▫ī. God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all. ....then of course we would expect some kind of active divine living energy within everything ! With regards to water, it is one of the 5 elements or 5 tat, through which the whole of creation was created.

I remember some time ago reading about some experiment where they had some identical plants and exposed them to music. From what I recall, one lot was exposed to some hard core gangsta rap/heavy metal with filthy language and the other to sweet, calm and loving orchestral music. It was no surprise that the plants hearing the gentle love evoking music grew twice as much and blossomed with beautiful flowers whilst the growth was virtually stunted in the other lot. Another little tip of mine to try- ...We know that certain families like to keep nice flowers and plants in their houses and gardens. Next time you are visiting some relative or aunty, have a look at the state of the plants and see how healthy and happy they look. You will find that the chances are in the houses where the arguments, as with liquor and drunken rows occur with shouting and swearing... ie a house where in punjabi we say, there is lots of ''Khlaeiss''..... then the state of the plants, if any will speak for that very environment. On the other hand, in the families where waheguru's name resonates in shabad, kirtan..etc.. and there is 'Sat santokh' within family, then their plants and flowers will be just as colourful as the peace and love between the family. Try it !!... I have personally confirmed it to myself a few times on occasions.

Maybe there is some sort of physical shock when we get some kind of break-thru ! I mean we expose our bodies to so much filth around the world having to walk in public, past people smoking and spitting..etc...etc. So, when we take some kind of spiritual leap, it probably has some sort of rebound effect physically. Anyway, .....I was a little relieved to hear and also read your translation of the below. Lately, because it's so hot.. we have the overhead fans on in every room about 18 hrs/day ! I have repeatedly gone from room to room and I can feel the 'waheguru' jap coming from the fan in complete sync with body rom rom ! The crazy thing is that for a few days I was just walking around room to room and changing the speeds on the fans to see if my rom rom reaction still stayed in sync.... and it would do so immediately ! Again, I was getting a little concerned because I thought that I have developed some 'oversensitivity' problem..! I have been constantly telling myself that it's not rom rom and that i have messed up my own brain wires of sensory stimulation somewhere. So, i was quite relieved when I heard this video the other day and then re-reading Sat's translation convinced me that I heard it correctly the first time. Just a few days ago, I was even telling my wife and asking her if she could feel it ....I was asking her to really try hard to see if she could pick it up..... but she just gave me a weird look thinking that I'm losing the plot ! I can even feel it coming from the pump in the fish tank... but I never told her that bit !!

Excellent

I know, but this is the way they get followers. I just ignore the living master references because here is where we use the shabad gurmantar. I just see that part as where the beliefs differentiate since the living guru for me is different to theirs. They say there are stages where one may need the spirit guide/guru to help them across part of the ocean, but even then, we can hold on to the shabad, I imagine. Personally speaking, if I were to reach such a stage where my lack of intellect or buddhi may need waheguru's manifestation in some sargun saroop to help guide me, then das would be over the moon to have Guru Nanak ji's guiding hand and charan. I don't think it is. Again, from what I personally understand is that Dev lok is a higher stage than the astral. The astral also comes with the overlap stage where stuck souls can be,,, these are what one can can experience as poot and prets....etc.. This is also the overlap that psychic mediums, seances ....ouija boards..and all that, make contact with. Dev lok is way beyond that and you can't tap in there with any ouija board ! Dev lok is more of the angelic realm that we want to pass even further, but it requires more effort than passing the first astral level. I think that only consciousness expansion compared to astral travel, can get you up and past dev lok.

Great stuff Bhagat. All these pointers are essential to help you build up that Awareness of the present moment. Once you can get a grip of trying to stay in this awareness zone, then being able to not follow thoughts also becomes somewhat easier.

Welcome to the forum. Just to remind,.... all the info and contributions on here are nothing official, but just how we have gone around trying various methods and how we have encountered them. I think more than anything, it is a great way to inspire and help each other on this journey. I was trying all sorts of simran and meditation techniques before I was inspired by Sat's contributions on here. Just knowing that he was doing this practically, regularly and getting more into waheguru, was a huge influence for the semi-confused me. It was probably just after that, that I started paying serious attention to it and taking my steps with more devotion. There's lots of theories out there, but most of these can't inspire unless someone has actually experienced it. I hope you too can gain and in turn contribute to everybody's development. Totally agree with above post, and I would try Sat's technique of focusing at the front of your own mouth. I think the chances are pretty high that this could help settle your dhian. Some people find it easier to focus near their ears, near the throat or just behind back of eyes, but you should settle in the one that you find more comfortable and just continue from there. I wouldn't try and rush into saas saas, but just let it happen steadily and naturally. Once you can manage to keep that level where you can lock your mind solely onto listening to gurmantar, is probably when you should think about the next step/level. And yes, like Sat says... one day you just find that all of a sudden your mind can just 'lock' into place ! It can take time, but you should slowly be able to bring your mind down from running in all directions of thoughts. Eventually, it becomes a little easier to completely ignore thougths and just focus on gurmantar. I used to think of this whole process as cleaning through the layers of filth on my mind. It's not always easy, because I still have many occasions where I just can't settle in and struggle to subdue the mind.....at these times instead of getting annoyed and frustrated... I try and think of it as some internal cleansing going on.... this way it helps put me in a more positive and determined frame of mind the next time I try !! I also agree in my case, that you continue breathing via mouth in saas saas. Only when you are ready for internal silent pasanti, do you start via nasal breathing.

I was at a simran camp a few weeks ago and was very lucky to be amongst some very advanced abyassee gurmukhs. I noticed that at the camp, my rom rom was spontaneously getting active when the sangat was doing jap ! At first, I thought it was just coincidence that this was happening, but it would sync automatically every time, whatever the pace or speed of jap was ? I had to keep convincing myself that it was just my imagination . A very respected and high avastha gurmukh confirmed that this was one of the nishanees that rom rom is parpakh and getting pargat ! I was told that experiencing jap as if it's electrifying and pulsating throughout your body is rom rom manifesting and that I must continue to do more and more simran. I have since picked up a few more pointers with regards to rom rom- 1) rom rom is the beginning of para bani, where we stimulate and try invoke automatic jap by starting simran at the navel. 2) I believe Sant Baba Isher Singh ji mentions this technique as well for beginning rom rom in one of his audios. 3) Your SURAT and SHABAD both begin to mold together and this results in rom rom and para bani getting stronger and stronger. 4) Eventually, (especially when head is uncovered), one can feel a very cool soothing sensation running from top of head throughout the body.... this is the amrit getting manifest throughout the body and in gurbani...... ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ Amriṯ ḏẖār gagan ḏas ḏu▫ār. From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down 5) Also later on, ....One can feel the waheguru jap coming from nearly everything and most objects around them. 6) rom rom and the merging of Shabad with Surat, can also stimulate and let the sushmana flow fully towards the agya chakra (slightly above eye brow mid-point). This results in many awakening symptoms of agya chakra, further intuition and a strong bond of love starts to form from this inner awareness. Swami j and yoga sutras mention that this higher affinity for the inner awareness is helpful in setting the stage for deeper experiences of sunn and samadhi.

Hanji... Kaal can't be the Devil. I think what some of us were getting at is, that the Devil (the mistranslated one!) is Kaal.,.... but Kaal does not describe the devil ! I was thinking that the ''devil'' description is highly misconstrued in a very negatively strong way, in the sense that it comes across as something equally as powerful at the Lord himself but in an opposite and untruthful manner.

Please don't take this as official advice,.... it's just what I understand with regards to my knowledge, time and experience.. I do have a little understanding of what's going on, but your own experiences will confirm in time. The OBE you describe, is kind of like your soul trying to go out and look for naam, but this naam has to come in the consciousness, fro what I comprehend. It is a little complicated, but in simple terms I would say that..... We can all experience the other dimensions, realms,...spiritual worlds...or whatever you want to call them, by 2 methods- from what I gather. 1st method -is the astral/soul/atma....or OBE like you mention... 2nd method- is by raising and expanding your Consciousness..... using mind focus on shabad. Expansion and elevation of consciousness is by self effort and not usually a gift you can be born with. Naam simran will help you achieve this and write your lekha. When you elevate your consciousness, then you can be experiencing realms anywhere in the universe all at once(since there is no time!)...Without having to leave or separate from your body. This is the kind of idea of becoming jivan mukht and experiencing sachkhand whilst alive. I have no idea if the 1st method alone can get you towards satguru, but I have been advised to stay focused on the 2nd method in order to experience waheguru, whilst remaining intact in your body. In my opinion this 2nd method is gurmat providing you stay absorbed in the gur-shabad in the practice of naam simran. NOTE- I find that the term astral travel is used quite loosely. Astral bodies can move in the lower and darker realms, which we have to be careful of. We are not interested in soul travel alone (and that can be possible!), but we need to go via the 2nd method of consciousness elevation and expansion. If your still not sure what I mean, then you can pm and i can try explain in more depth. But I know you can't go wrong if you stick with Gurshabad and simran.

Have you tried reading your own palms ? Because the pre-destined can be changed by conscientious efforts by yourself ! Believe me, you can witness your own lines and paths changing as you raise your own consciousness. I have not had any 3rd party medium interactions but I do find that the subconscious speaks to you via dreams to help you better yourself. I do sometimes feel that dreams can bring out matters or issues that we may sometimes ignore in daily life, but which have to be dealt with in order to move on ! (are you aquarius ? )

In my experience, the step from saas saas to silent pasanti jap usually balances any slight unevenness. I never really gave it much thought until I had this encounter some time ago........ I had had a period of about 2 weeks where I just couldn't get in the swing to do even a few minutes of simran no matter when or where i tried. It was this little setback that made me check my balance one night and that's when I realized that it was quite bad at some ratio of 75:25 or so. That very early morning, I made sure I had a hot steamy shower to help clear airways and then I even lay with head tilted for a few minutes to let gravity drain the blockage (I was desperate !) I did the alternate nostril breathing and then tried simran.....and to my surprise I was back in to where I wanted to be. . Since then, I do tend to keep a little check on it especially on occasions that i may experience some difficulty. When this happens, I immediately go for the 'Alternate nostril breathing' and this usually corrects it. At certain times, I have used my mind to focus on the imbalanced side and push it mentally, but this only works if I have done the alternate nostril breath earlier. I do actually realize the importance of this balance, although I have previously been quite ignorant of such techniques. A well balanced and co-ordinated gurmukh just needs the shabad to balance everything and take them to Waheguru, but a manmukh like me needs to utilize all available ,to help compensate for the many shortcomings in my vicinity. I appreciate it's greater significance since I've been trying rom rom. I think this balance becomes of value when the simran is more sukam and subtle.

Theres some confusion as to what sudarshan kriya is supposed to be ? There is the 16 pumps in one breath as per Yogi Bhajan's and this one above as per ravi shankar's art of living. Bhagat Jaidev mentions the 16 pumps/breath ਚੰਦ ਸਤ ਭੇਦਿਆ ਨਾਦ ਸਤ ਪੂਰਿਆ ਸੂਰ ਸਤ ਖੋੜਸਾ ਦਤੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ Cẖanḏ saṯ bẖeḏi▫ā nāḏ saṯ pūri▫ā sūr saṯ kẖoṛsā ḏaṯ kī▫ā. The breath is drawn in through the left nostril; it is held in the central channel of the Sukhmanaa, and exhaled through the right nostril, repeating the Lord's Name sixteen times Whereas the one above is like waheguru jaap but at different speeds. The only thing that I noted a little different is that he says to incorporate the breath with mantar vocal..ie bring in vocal 1st and then match breath 2nd. But I think that most of us when we do waheguru jap, we incorporate the mantar into the breath so that we are not forcing breath too much but saying wahe and guru with every breath in and out. Then we change speed to a slower breath when trying to go within and more internal with surti, rather than kicking up the pace ! Personally, I find that going at a steady natural pace seems to be more beneficial for longer sessions of jap. The fast paced breathing above reminded me of 'breath of fire' that I do in yoga. This rapid pumping and inhalation for about 3 minutes is good for stimulating all the nadis in the body since it comes from the core of your body. But you can't sustain it too long or keep the dhian on the jap deep enough- It's more of a clutch-gear change activity to help with general mind and body flow. The 3HO sudarshan kriya reminded me that I had used it previously on occasions to help me focus and settle in. I'd forgotten about it and it's just that you don't always remember what to try when you do have difficulty keeping dhian on shabad. I would suggest that you try it and see if it may help any of you with your dhian focus. Some people find it helps and some people have too much difficulty with the effort of holding breath. You won't know unless you try In my opinion, there's no harm in using/trying techniques to stabilize one self with the shabad dhian.

He was involved with kundalini yoga which started when he was in LA. He was even at the 3HO sat nam fest back in 2012 I think ! Whether he was giving some serious thought about becoming a sikh at one time.....I have no idea !... but it looks like he paid a little more than just interest. There have been a number of celebs doing kundalini yoga with most of them from hollywood scene.

I have been trying rom rom practice on most days and some days it all just falls in place a lot easier, whereas on others it may be a little difficult to just get that steadiness. However, speaking for myself, I have noticed that on days where it may not be so fluid , then usually my breathing is unbalanced. I don't always check or try and balance breath before hand, but I have never had days where there may be some difficulty and the breath is balanced as well ! So, this is like a little personal conclusion and reminder for me to keep a check on breath balance. On the other hand, balanced breath does NOT always mean success, because there have been many times when all is checked fine but I still can't maintain the steady flow for more than a few minutes, despite the breath being balanced. What has really been an eye opener for me is the fact that I've tried rom rom throughout the day when I may be out and about, and it does seem to work ! On a few occasions, I've been in a busy shopping mall, train station..etc...and then just sat down for some 5 minutes and I will try see if I can do it whilst sat still, AND I usually can ! This really surprised me at first because of all the constant noise going on around me, but I found that if I tried to feel my navel area pulse, then automatically I go 'within' and immediately the internal jap starts. Another thing that I've noticed is that I can feel the rom rom and the pulse within my fingertips when I put my dhian there. This first got my attention in yoga when we do the hand gian-mudra and press 1st finger with thumb whilst sitting in easy pose. At the time I noticed and felt the nadis on those fingertips and they were both in the same 'waheguru....wahegururu....waheguru....' mode. Whenever i put my dhian on the fingertips now, no matter where or what I'm doing, I can mostly tune in to do internal jap with ease. I'm really not sure if I've just become more self aware or something else is happening like some crazy mind games ? The only thing that worried me slightly was that if i've become more self aware and highly sensitive to body sensations, then I'm a little frightened to be encountering pain of any sort, because a small tiny pain trigger may be much more heightened and painful to me than it actually is !!

Guru loves us ALL equally, whether you a bedi or not. Why do we even have the thoughts of some differentiation ?

Sunn state is difficult to cross, but getting there is not as extreme as you make out from what I gather and understand so far. It is the state where your efforts can take you to his Door/dasam duar Then it is ONLY him who opens it when ready as per his hukam and will. SO, you work at it and get there, and then only he will answer depending on how long he wants you to wait ! When this opens is when you shall experience the real prakash and hear the sounds from his very mouth ! I'm not too sure about the knowing of all 3 worlds as you mention, because this learning and knowing continues all the way up the higher planes until the final sachkhand- final destination. Having prakash of waheguru doesn't mean you go to sachkhand, there are many more countless levels we will have to pass through that are tailored to our individual spiritual status. The difficult part is NOT the getting to sunn, but it is the staying there in that state and prolonging it for longer periods. To stay there for even a few minutes is not easy at all and requires plenty of practice and many many many repeated attempts. The abyasees and serious meditators may understand this stage similar to the earlier stages of simran.-....in the sense that just like in earlier stages one can continue anything from months to years before any spiritual experience encounter occurs for the 1st time, then in the same way one can likewise be in sunn for any period of time before Waheguru opens that door. I believe that there is a sakhi related to this 'waiting' that goes with the shabad below- It was along the lines of when Kabirji himself was in sunn for a period of 8 pehr/24 hours !!! That's a whole 24 hours of maintaining himself in that state of sunn before he got the darshan !...... (a whole 24 hr day...incredible!!!!) ਦਰਮਾਦੇ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥ Ḏarmāḏe ṯẖādẖe ḏarbār. I stand humbly at Your Court. ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਕੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕਿਵਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Ŧujẖ bin suraṯ karai ko merī ḏarsan ḏījai kẖoliĥ kivār. ||1|| rahā▫o. Who else can take care of me, other than You? Please open Your door, and grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||1||Pause|| Then again he mentions standing at the door many times in Kabir slok ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਸੰਕੁਰਾ ਰਾਈ ਦਸਏਂ ਭਾਇ ॥ Kabīr mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā sankurā rā▫ī ḏas▫eʼn bẖā▫e. Kabeer, the door of liberation is very narrow, less than the width of a mustard seed ਮਨੁ ਤਉ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਨਿਕਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਕੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੫੮॥ Man ṯa▫o maigal ho▫e rahi▫o nikso ki▫o kai jā▫e. ||58|| Your mind is larger than an elephant; how will it pass through? ||58|| ਕਬੀਰ ਐਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਤੁਠਾ ਕਰੇ ਪਸਾਉ ॥ Kabīr aisā saṯgur je milai ṯuṯẖā kare pasā▫o. Kabeer, if I meet such a True Guru, who mercifully blesses me with the gift, ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਮੋਕਲਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਆਵਉ ਜਾਉ ॥੫੯॥ Mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā moklā sėhje āva▫o jā▫o. ||59|| then the door of liberation will open wide for me, and I will easily pass through. ||59|| ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਛਾਨਿ ਨ ਛਾਪਰੀ ਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਗਾਉ ॥ Kabīr nā mohi cẖẖān na cẖẖāprī nā mohi gẖar nahī gā▫o. Kabeer, I have no hut or hovel, no house or village. ਮਤ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਛੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਹੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਨਾਉ ॥੬੦॥ Maṯ har pūcẖẖai ka▫un hai mere jāṯ na nā▫o. ||60|| I hope that the Lord will not ask who I am. I have no social status or name. ||60|| ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਰਨੇ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ਹੈ ਮਰਉ ਤ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ Kabīr muhi marne kā cẖā▫o hai mara▫o ṯa har kai ḏu▫ār. Kabeer, I long to die; let me die at the Lord's Door. ਮਤ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਛੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਬਾਰ ॥੬੧॥ Maṯ har pūcẖẖai ka▫un hai parā hamārai bār. ||61|| I hope that the Lord does not ask, "Who is this, lying at my door?" ||61|| ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾ ਹਮ ਕੀਆ ਨ ਕਰਹਿਗੇ ਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੈ ਸਰੀਰੁ ॥ Kabīr nā ham kī▫ā na karhige nā kar sakai sarīr. Kabeer, I have not done anything; I shall not do anything; my body cannot do anything. ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਭਇਓ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ॥੬੨॥ Ki▫ā jān▫o kicẖẖ har kī▫ā bẖa▫i▫o Kabīr Kabīr. ||62|| I do not know what the Lord has done, but the call has gone out: "Kabeer, Kabeer". ||62|| ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਹੂ ਬਰੜਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ Kabīr supnai hū barṛā▫e kai jih mukẖ niksai rām. Kabeer, if someone utters the Name of the Lord even in dreams, ਤਾ ਕੇ ਪਗ ਕੀ ਪਾਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਤਨ ਕੋ ਚਾਮੁ ॥੬੩॥ Ŧā ke pag kī pānhī mere ṯan ko cẖām. ||63|| I would make my skin into shoes for his feet. ||63|| ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਹਮ ਪੂਤਰੇ ਮਾਨਸੁ ਰਾਖਿਓੁ ਨਾਉ ॥ Kabīr mātī ke ham pūṯre mānas rākẖi▫o nā▫o. Kabeer, we are puppets of clay, but we take the name of mankind. ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਵਸ ਕੇ ਪਾਹੁਨੇ ਬਡ ਬਡ ਰੂੰਧਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥੬੪॥ Cẖār ḏivas ke pāhune bad bad rūʼnḏẖėh ṯẖā▫o. ||64|| We are guests here for only a few days, but we take up so much space. ||64|| ਕਬੀਰ ਮਹਿਦੀ ਕਰਿ ਘਾਲਿਆ ਆਪੁ ਪੀਸਾਇ ਪੀਸਾਇ ॥ Kabīr mahiḏī kar gẖāli▫ā āp pīsā▫e pīsā▫e. Kabeer, I have made myself into henna, and I grind myself into powder. ਤੈ ਸਹ ਬਾਤ ਨ ਪੂਛੀਐ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥੬੫॥ Ŧai sah bāṯ na pūcẖẖī▫ai kabahu na lā▫ī pā▫e. ||65|| But You, O my Husband Lord, have not asked about me; You have never applied me to Your Feet. ||65|| ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਹ ਦਰਿ ਆਵਤ ਜਾਤਿਅਹੁ ਹਟਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ Kabīr jih ḏar āvaṯ jāṯi▫ahu hatkai nāhī ko▫e. Kabeer, that door, through which people never stop coming and going - ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜੋ ਦਰੁ ਐਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੬੬॥ So ḏar kaise cẖẖodī▫ai jo ḏar aisā ho▫e. ||66|| how can I leave such a door as that? ||66|| Are you talking about a spiritual guide here ? OR do you think that anhad naad and gurmantar is all you need to be immersed in ? I know that sant mat insists on having a spiritual guide to take you across, but I thought the shabad is all we need ? It's a little confusing and frustrating for me at times because I've encountered others telling me that i should have a spiritual guide or guru ? Sunn In my understanding, Sunn is a very deep meditative state whereby you bring control of your physical body to the deeper self of soul and subconscious. The physical manner that this can get confirmed is that your breathing will change at the moment the shift to this state occurs. This breathing shifts immediately into the very deeper breath just like it shifts when we go into sleep mode. However, you are NOT asleep or have let your mind fall into the dream mode of maya. Entering Sunn is the moment when you feel that your mind is disconnected from your body and breath, as it is not in maya and you are not asleep but in full awareness and control. At this stage you can feel yourself extremely light, expanding and rising from the grounded weight of yourself. It is a very near feeling to complete nirgun with the feel of yourself ascending, however it is NOT an out of body experience, and neither is this the idea. (Out of body and all that astral stuff cannot take you to waheguru's door, so you don't even want to try that route and I wouldn't think it is gurmat) It is probably best explained as going through different dimensions of consciousness until you are in this elevated and altered state of Sunn. I have heard of abhyasees being at this state for a number of years before his Hukam wills ! But we shouldn't let anything put us off or give up should we ?

Ang945 iehu mnu mYglu khw bsIAly khw bsY iehu pvnw ] eihu man maigal kehaa baseealae kehaa basai eihu pavanaa || "Where does this mind-elephant live? Where does the breath reside? khw bsY su sbdu AauDU qw kau cUkY mn kw Bvnw ] kehaa basai s sabadh aoudhhoo thaa ko chookai man kaa bhavanaa || Where should the Shabad reside, so that the wanderings of the mind may cease?"" ndir kry qw siqguru myly qw inj Gir vwsw iehu mnu pwey ] nadhar karae thaa sathigur maelae thaa nij ghar vaasaa eihu man paaeae || When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within. The physical sargun breath resides in nostril/lung/diaphragm respiration area. The question by Guru Nanak ji to siddhas, .. is if the shabad should reside in the spoken sargun area, and then if the mind is in the same area..’’will it stop wandering?’’ OR... ''Where can you put the mind to stop it wondering?'' >If we keep it connected to shabad in the breath and be listening, then that 's fine for then, but we have to take the shabad nirgun and the mind has to follow also. If we think about what I mentioned above with saas graas and early steps of simran- We try and connect the spoken shabd and put our mind’s dhyian in that area and Listen.(the practical saas graas) Thus we make a connection here in order to make the Mind sit inside us, otherwise when our eyes are open the mind wanders outside without effort. The next step of disconnecting is referring to the initial connection and to go put dhyian higher up within when in sunn. At this stage we want to connect the mind to the shabad and be in ‘shabad sehaj sunn’ instead. Disconnecting of mind from breath is my meaning for leaving 3 gunas and entering chautha pad, when mind is away from sargun maya and the nirgun thoughts we have. You see, the mind automatically ties itself to the maya breath of 3 gunas, it ties itself so much that we think it can’t survive otherwise. It’s as if the mind can only be in sehaj if it is tied to something and it automatically opts for maya unless we make the effort. For the mind to separate from breath, means to become detached from the sargun and connect with the nirgun shabad dunn. What I'm trying to say in short is>-...the early stages of simran connect the mind to breath by action and the shabad by listening. Then we go further and bring everything antar ghat and nirgun, such that we disconnect mind from here and make it sit in sunn with shabad to begin entering waheguru’s abode. Of course, we are still breathing and connecting to saas( not disconnecting physically) ! (gurbani below)The mind becomes awakened(jagaii) when it is away from the duality or out of the 3 gunas. (It won’t awake while dhyian is in the breath and sound as in in early simran) Ang1128 krmu hovY guru ikrpw krY ] karam hovai gur kirapaa karai || When the mortal has good karma, the Guru grants His Grace. iehu mnu jwgY iesu mn kI duibDw mrY ]4] eihu man jaagai eis man kee dhubidhhaa marai ||4|| Then this mind is awakened, and the duality of this mind is subdued. ||4|| Concerning Prana and Pavan- Prana= Breath of life, the life force Prana travels via the nadi etheric channels throughout the body.(same as Chinese chi). More importantly, Prana governs all sukham/subtle processes in the body..ie.thoughts/feelings/mind voice…etc.. Even in bible…’’ God formed humans from the dust of the ground, breathing into their nostrils the breath of life so they became living beings” - Genesis 2:7’’ (I watched 'Noah' last night, and it mentions the breath) Pavan=the air and breath, that is the carrier of prana. Pavan is sometimes referred in gurbani as the woven string/thread holding the pearls of a necklace. Pavan is also what sustains maya. While on this same issue, I took notice from a thread on sikhsangat and noted the below shabads. Guru Nanak ji and Bhai Gurdas ji make reference to 10 finger lengths Ang 944 qRY sq AMgul vweI khIAY iqsu khu kvnu ADwro ] thrai sath a(n)gul vaaee keheeai this kahu kavan adhhaaro || The breath, when exhaled, extends out ten finger lengths; what is the support of the breath? And from next shabd on same ang qRY sq AMgul vweI AauDU suMn scu Awhwro ] thrai sath a(n)gul vaaee aoudhhoo su(n)n sach aahaaro || O reclusive hermit, the True, Absolute Lord is the support of the exhaled breath, which extends out ten finger lengths. Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 22 qRY squ AMgul lY mnu pvxu imlwieAw] thrai sath a(n)gul lai man pavan milaaeiaa|| In the breath going ten fingers out the mind is associated with the vital air and the practice is completed. We know in biological/physical terms, the breath goes from deep diaphragm area in lungs up to the nostrils. This area is up to the throat chakra.(throat chakra covers upper breathing apparatus) The chakras are each within our bodies at distances of ten finger lengths (or 2 palm width-side by side). Guru Nanak ji tells the siddhas that the Lord’s mansion is no further than the 10 finger lengths. Ie. The crown chakra is accessed thru the corridor that starts at trikuti. This dasam duar or the door to the nijh ghar(his mansion) is 10 finger lengths from trikuti. Thus, his HUGE mansion is no more than 2 palm widths away !! Maybe the 10 could also be significant for the 5 gyan and 5 karam indries, since we have to close of and internally move from the 9 doors to open the 10th !!

I’m going to have a go explaining my interpretation of Rom Rom Simran. How to get started. This is just one method but with some gurmukhs it can mianifest spontaneously. It's mentioned quite often in the order of saas graas, saas saas and then rom rom, but very rarely does any mahapursh give any details about it. I get that impression because it is a very practical technique that involves sukham sareer compared to physical, and I assume that most teachers/mahapursh/sant show and demonstrate to an abyhasee only after he is adept in saas graas and saas saas. It almost seems as it is kept hush hush and some sant/mahapursh don't reveal to student until x-amount of years have been spent doing the other vidhis/jugtees. I found that I could get a little information from one place and another little idea from another,,,,, so basically, my interpretation is from gathering the little bits and putting them together from varying sources. I must stress that as far as I understand it, one should be doing this only when they know how to maintain or get very close to a steadiness and when they are able to get breath balanced (ie,, via sukhmana channel) Primarily,one has to do more abyhaas to get the nadhis cleansed and stimulated, and when this happens- the sukham sareer properties start coming into play. I won't go into the vidhies of breath balancing or dhyian control for now,but will give you my understanding and how I've been doing the rom rom simran. ROM ROM SIMRAN This is pasanti bhani jap- which is mental,silent and completely from the sukham Mind. and it is antar ghat (completely internal) We are using sukham ears and sukham mouth to jap. (ie,,,sukham gyan and karam indries) It is ALL sukham compared to the Physical breathing manoeuvres/inhalations/tongue use....etc.. in Saas graas & Saas saas However, there is the beginning aspect of trying to feel the pulse or heartbeat, that is classed as physical. But once you master this, then it all becomes sukham. A little point I would like to make is about some confusion for matching breathing with heartbeat - which can no doubt lead to hyperventilation I really don't think that you should match your breath to heartbeat- since this is ALL sukham. If we start matching physical breath then we are going towards sargun/physical behaviour and hindering progress into sukham. The way I see it is- With simran we progress through the jugtees and techniques by gradually making our surti, dhyian and actions, to move from Sargun to Nirgun. So, if our surti can come out and away from the sargun body, then we move away from the grasps of kaal and his maya dominance. Therefore, we need to make surti/dhyian move from Sargun to Nirgun. (remember- before creation there was just the nirgun shabad and all sargun manifested later. It makes sense to go back home in that reverse order!) As for the rapid breathing technique that can lead to hyperventilation and hypoxia, I am aware that some keertan sangats practice this, but this is not to be confused with heartbeat & rom rom jugtee, or any other jugtee for that matter. Hypoxia or oxygen deprivation from rapid hyperventilation can give someone a good feeling of being lightheaded. I have heard how some of these kirtan sangats(akj) claim to have feelings of divine anand from their fast paced kirtan samagams, but this is nothing much different than the 2 minute high that party students get with nitric 'poppers', because of same oxygen starvation effects. Technique/method 1) 1st quieten and get that steady state where breath is balanced. 2) Try and feel your heart beat by putting the focus into that area 3) If this is difficult, then it may help if- -a) you hold your breath for a few seconds and then try to locate/listen. -b) Or you can instead ,try to feel your pulse on the wrist. 4) Once you find the beat and can follow it's beating rhythm, then putting some more dhyian there should make it more louder and prominent. 5) the anhad naad/dhun should also get more prominent if you have it present. -I usually find that they both get more enhanced at the same time 6) Now, that the heart beating is clear and can be followed, you incorporate and match the gurmantar along with it to begin rom rom. -this itself can be done in 2 ways a) you should be able to identify an ''up'' beat and a ''down'' beat. ...then coincide the Wahe-with-Up, and the Guru-with-Down. OR.. b) when the beat is too fast to differentiate the up/down, then you can match the whole gurmantar with this faster beat. For eg..you are saying waheguru,waheguru,waheguru, without any pause or breaks in wahe-and-guru. With practice, you should eventually be able to locate the heartbeat without touching or feeling any pulse. If you HOLD the breath for a few seconds, then this also make it easier to sense. NEXT, the goal is to put the focus on navel, because when focusing at navel, one can be steady in the sukhmanna channel and trying to rise upwards. The sukhmanna channel runs directly from navel area towards the nijh ghar. (in a straight line along the path of chakras) Before we are born and in the womb, this connection is fully active and intune with waheguru. When the umbilical cord is cut and the first birth breath is taken, that's when the veil layers of maya world start their course. You could also say that the knot to maya is tied after cord is cut/breath is taken in atmosphere. ਮਨ ਰੇ ਪਵਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਸੁਖਮਨ ਨਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Man re pavan ḏariṛ sukẖman nārī. ||1|| rahā▫o. O mind, hold your breath steady within the central channel of the Sushmanaa. ||1||Pause|| It's important to get the steady breath balance before you start rom rom. This steadiness and control comes when there are no thoughts. If any thoughts arise, then the breath balancing goes into either side of Ida or Pingala. That’s why it is called the turbulent ocean (bhavsagar) because we rock from side to side (left to right), or from ida to pingala whilst trying to travel up the nadis and trying to maintain the steadiness in sukhmana throughout. This 2nd stage of rom rom is to focus around navel area and feel the pulse there which is much more sukham. The focus, I believe is not directly at the belly button, but you feel the pulse and rom rom vibration just below it and deeper inside. It is the area called the DHARAN.- which is about 1 inch below and 1 inch inwards. I often find it a little easier to locate this subtle area compared to the heartbeat sometimes. With practice it should become easier and almost instant. The vibrations that I feel there can be In and Out and so I use the mental Wahe-in and Guru-out, OR sometimes they may be going slightly up/down at an angle rather than in/out, but I still use the same method and have noticed that the rate of rom rom vibration is practically the same. All the jap is done in complete sukham from the mind, and it can help if you do the internal, mental chant with the inner voice being raised with some power behind it. (as if your enforcing your internal chant) The last check I usually make is to be sure that I am breathing slowly and normally, and not accidentally incorporating the breath into the jap rhythm-which can be very easily done (and then you can end up with the hyperventilating issue explained above). Again, with practice, this will become instant and second nature. This practice takes you on a whole new quest with both mystical and spiritual experiences, that are individual and personally tailored to each of us. You will know that they can't be discussed openly. I can seriously understand why it is of great importance to have the right sangat and experienced gurmukh/mahapursh/sant guidance/advisor to assist you along the encounters at this stage. This is probably the reason to why it has the "hush hush'' factor and doesn't get mentioned too often. Sadly, I'm not in the company of any mahapursh and at certain times I have felt the desperate need to get questions answered. So far, I seemed to have managed using gurbani, certain info sources, practice and of course, Waheguru's blessings. Using the above practice method should eventually make Rom Rom fully manifest/pargat. There are a few nishanees that can help determine if it's pargat in full or not, but I won't go into those here.

I'm just going back with reference to a couple of older posts in another thread where I tried to explain what I understood about the jugtees of saas graas and saas saas. I have just noticed that the saas saas had a couple of points missing and I have now amended and described the 2 stages of Saas Saas itself a little more clearly than previous. Saas Graas.as I explained in above post is when we chant Wahe-(breath in) and Guru-(breath out). I believe that one should practice this quite thoroughly before trying to jump onto the next ones, because I have realized to some extents why there is so much importance in the mentioned vidhi. It's foundation has to be strong to help in later techniques. Saying that, it has also got me thinking about why it's called saas graas ? Well, considering it's importance and strong foundation required, I came up with a possible answer that made a little more sense to me personally ! We have all probably come across the different interpretations that we may find in places, because Saas=breath and Graas=morsel of food. The most common one that I hear is that Saas graas means we should be japping naam with EVERY breath and EVERY morsel of food we eat..ie. at all times while breathing and eating. But I have always felt that the interpretation is a little loose. However, I personally think it's much more than this, especially after doing the practical, Firstly, we have to remember that we are doing simran to rise to nij ghar and we start this journey by merging BOTH Mind and Breath, in order that we can learn to CONTROL the mind by moving it's dhyian about internally. Then, once we have learned to control it, we need to learn to separate the Mind from the Breath. This is so that we can get into the stage of SUNN where there are no thoughts and whilst there, we should attach and merge with Guru shabad in order to continue with his grace to Waheguru. In effect, we are doing these vidhis and using these jugtees in order train our self control with the mind. The Saas is the life force pran energy and pavan or simply called the breath. But this saas is essential only while we are in a physical body form in Maya. Therefore, we could say that pavan is the guru of Maya, since when we are out of the bondage of pavan, then we are also out of the maya world. With this in mind,-My idea is that ''Graas'' is referring to the food of the Mind via pavan life force. So, saas graas is a foundation to start at by connecting Mind and Breath together in order to try control and increase power/nourish our own dhyian of mind. Food for thought or should I say food for mind ?

Sat veerji, I don't think that hyperventilation should scare people away. Because the little I sort of know about it, I don't think that if someone is doing it correctly then there is any worry about hyperventilating. I've been doing it and trying it for a while now and I will try and post some info on the other thread of what my interpretation and method is. I was a little confused at first with how people interpreted it differently and also used the term interchangeably with ajapa jap.

Well, I hope this wakes up a few of those sons of the mother-in-law's. These sons that obey and follow every rule and decision made by their dear holy mother............these guys need to wake up and realise what is going on in the mind of the poor girl.

I found a similar source from gyani sant Maskeen ji's blog. Naam Abhiyaas Gyani Sant Ji Maskeen's Naam abihyaas translated By: Mr. Prabhjot Singh The tongue is doing the JAP of Waheguru, but the thought of uttering Waheguru mantra takes place in the mind. The navel is natively referred to as Dhunni because it is this place where sound (dhun) emerges from. The air strikes the Dhuni when a thought of saying something takes place in the mind. Naabhi (Navel) is like a wind instrument – For example, a harmonium, flute, shainai, etc. can only produce sound if it is pumped with some air, otherwise one cannot produce any sound out of them. Naabhi is one such instrument Waheguru has planted in our body that only produces sound if wind is applied to it. It is the wind that is an important element in the whole procedure. That is why, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has called wind a Guru because it is the Guru that creates associations for us. Wind produces speech, and with speech we are able to make associations with others. In the worldly affairs, we first see and then speak about it. In the case of Waheguru, we will HAVE to speak to create the association. ਕਬੀਰ ਕੇਸੋ ਕੇਸੋ ਕੂਕੀਐ ਨ ਸੋਈਐ ਅਸਾਰ ॥ kabeer kaeso kaeso kookeeai n soeeai asaar || Kabeer, chant the Name of the Beautifully-haired Lord; do not sleep unaware. ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਵਸ ਕੇ ਕੂਕਨੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਕੇ ਸੁਨੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥੨੨੩॥ raath dhivas kae kookanae kabehoo kae sunai pukaar ||223|| Chanting His Name night and day, the Lord will eventually hear your call. ||223|| (Ang 1376, SGGS Ji) Kabir Ji says no matter what, I will keep on saying Lord’s name, eventually my call will be heard. On the worldly level, we see and then speak, but here one has to just keep saying His name, one day we will be able to see Him standing right in front of us. When wind strikes the Naabhi, it produces a sound, that sound is called Parra. When that sound rises up and reaches the heart, it is called Basanti; this is where that sound recieves its words. When the words reach the throat, that state is called Madhmaa, this is where a complete sentence is formed. Eventually, tongue expresses it outside the body; this state is called Bekhari. So these are the stages of speech: 1. Parra 2. Basanti 3. Madhmaa 4. Bekhari Now, one has to reverse the process and take that sound back to the Dhunni, the place where the sound arose from. Kabir Ji refers to this as: ਉਲਟੀ ਗੰਗਾ ਜਮੁਨ ਮਿਲਾਵਉ ॥ oulattee gangaa jamun milaavo || Turn your breath away from the left channel, and away from the right channel, and unite them in the central channel of the Sushmanaa. (Ang 327, SGGS Ji) One has to reverse the cycle and merge Ganges back into Yamunaa – The sound that was created at the Naabhi, and came out of the body via the tongue has to reversed and sent back to the Naabhi. Of course, this process is very difficult. One can keep saying Waheguru Waheguru thousands of times, the effort will be fruitless until one is able to reverse the sound and take it back to where it emerged from i.e. the Dhunni. In order to do that, Bekhari must be converted to Madhmaa, Madhmaa to Basanti, and finally Basanti to Parra. The inner revolution will start only when the process of utterence of Waheguru is reversed. When Waheguru is uttered and reversed this way, it takes away all the clingling pains and sufferings; this sound provides supreme bliss. However, in order to be able to say Waheguru in the above way, one has to utter Waheguru a lot of times and meditate on it until the state is reached where the process of reversal is finally accomplished. How to achieve the revesal? The sound came out from the inside via the tongue, so it cannot take it back in; one has to use the ears to take the sound back inside. Guru Teg Bahadur Ji says: ਰੇ ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥ rae man raam sio kar preeth || O mind, love the Lord. ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੁਨੁ ਸੁਨਉ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਉ ਰਸਨਾ ਗੀਤਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ sravan gobindh gun suno ar gaao rasanaa geeth ||1|| rehaao || With your ears, hear the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe, and with your tongue, sing His song. ||1||Pause|| (Ang 631, SGGS Ji) Keep on singing Waheguru matra, but do not let it get wasted in the thin air, the purpose is to listen with ears and take the sound back inside the body. Just like food is taken in with mouth and eventually becomes blood, similarly when praises of the Lord are taken back inside, the person will be blessed with salvation; this absorbed sound will give supreme bliss, and result in Samadhi Avastha. However, one has to really LISTEN to the sound of Waheguru matra; when one LISTENS with utmost concentration, millions of pains and sufferings are elimination by just one Waheguru Jap. ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ naanak bhagathaa sadhaa vigaas || O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੧੦॥ suniai dhookh paap kaa naas ||10|| Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||10|| (Ang 3, SGGS Ji) When one really LISTENS with love and concentration, then ears will absorb the sound inside and take it to the throat i.e. Madhmaa. When one is able to convert Waheguru sound back to Madhmaa, it will give immense joy to such a person – he will be able to actually enjoy the rass of Gurbani. If the concentration and love is maintained, the sound reaches from Madhmaa to the heart (Basanti); one starts hearing the Anhad Naad at this stage. This stages takes that person to the doorsteps of God. Guruji describes it as follows: ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ so dhar kaehaa so ghar kaehaa jith behi sarab samaalae || Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all? ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥ vaajae naadh anaek asankhaa kaethae vaavanehaarae || The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there. ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥ kaethae raag paree sio keheean kaethae gaavanehaarae || So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there. (Ang 6, SGGS Ji) There is immense celebration at the doorsteps of the Lord. Ancient Kings and Maharajahs would order music to be played at the doors of their palace during mornings and evenings. Bhagats would hear the Anhad Naad inside, and created instruments to try to reproduce that sound. This stage is immensly enjoyable, but there is only one more step left to be taken further – the sound that has become Madhmaa has to strike the Naabhi and become Parra again. If the required concentration is maintained and one keeps keeps the Jap going, the sound will strike the Naabhi; the Naabhi that opened to create the sound in the first stage will fully open up. At this stage, body lives but mind (mann) dies. Such a person starts existing on the same level as Waheguru Himself. Kabir Ji clearly declares: ਬਿਗਰਿਓ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਦੁਹਾਈ ॥ bigariou kabeeraa raam dhuhaaee || Just so, Kabeer has changed. ਸਾਚੁ ਭਇਓ ਅਨ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ saach bhaeiou an kathehi n jaaee ||1|| rehaao || He has become the Embodiment of Truth, and he does not go anywhere else. ||1||Pause|| (Ang 1158, SGGS Ji) ਅਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥ ab tho jaae chadtae singhaasan milae hai saaringapaanee || Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World. ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥੬॥੩॥ raam kabeeraa eaek bheae hai koe n sakai pashhaanee ||6||3|| The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||6||3|| (Ang 969, SGGS Ji) A Gurmukh Bhram Gyaani who has reached such an Avastha then does not need to recite Waheguru mantra, the sound constantly vibrates inside him with every breath taken – he/she becomes the roop of Akal Purakh Waheguru.