Sikhi is against tobacco, then why the rich gas station wala

[wahegurubol]

I saw many gas station wala sikhs in USA, who sell cigarrets and alcohol at their store , touch with their own hands...

How is it that a substance of such taboo be sold by sikhs?

[akalisodhi]

because there is no space for morality in the money making process....

not exactly what i believe but still

[deepsingh]

the contents are not open they are packaged, so you are really no touching the contents inside of the package. Any work you do you can find faults in even farming.

When you were driving around to these gas stations you were spreading pollution could you not consider that taboo which is harm full to earth.

[Mehtab Singh]

the contents are not open they are packaged, so you are really no touching the contents inside of the package.

If someone applies chocolate paste to cyanide and asks you to have it, will you?

[vinegar]

Sikhi opposes the consumption of Tobacco, not the touching of it.

Mehtab Singh, that has to be one of the worst analogies I have ever seen in my life.

imo there's no problem with it, it's not like they're smoking themselves.

[kirpa_karo]

because there is no space for morality in the money making process....

not exactly what i believe but still

So we ditch Guru Nanak's philosophy of dharam di kirat - earning an HONEST living?

How about there no space for morality in warfare - what happens to the sikh idea of dharam yudh - the righteous struggle - (bhai ghanaiya...)

How about there is no space for morality in politics - what happens to akaal takht sahib?

hmmmmm

[Mehtab Singh]

Sikhi opposes the consumption of Tobacco, not the touching of it.

So its ok to behave indecently with a bibi and say that you are not actually "doing" anything? Oh wait thats another "worst" analogy for you!

imo there's no problem with it, it's not like they're smoking themselves.

Yeah, they should start smuggling drugs as well then. They are not consuming them, are they? Start selling illegal weapons too, because they are not killing anyone on their own. Talk about worst analogies!

So we ditch Guru Nanak's philosophy of dharam di kirat - earning an HONEST living?

Gurujee refused to eat at Malik Bhago's house because he earned by oppressing poor people. He probably worked "hard" to oppress people, but his "hard" work wasn't good enough for Gurujee. And please explain to me how is selling a poison like cigarettes an "honest" living, I am interested to know.

How about there no space for morality in warfare - what happens to the sikh idea of dharam yudh - the righteous struggle - (bhai ghanaiya...)

If I am not wrong, a Sikh doesn't attack a wounded person or an unarmed person, so in the Sikh sense, morality does exist even in warfare. Remember a Sikh is a Sant 1st, and then a Sipahi.

How about there is no space for morality in politics - what happens to akaal takht sahib?

Which is the reason Sahib Sri Guru Hargobind Jee Maharaj is the Lord of Miri as well as Piri. Religion without power and politics without religion tends to scatter things around. Why do you think Gurujee said "Raaj bina nahi dharam chale hain" and "Koi kisi ko raajna de hai, jo le hai nijj bal se le hai" (Excuse the spellings).

I can understand that at certain points in life one does have to make compromises in adopting a profession. There are enough people who do this business as wahegurubol pointed out, but that doesn't justify it in any way. People are so quick to start yelling that there is no need to keep Bibek, while the first and foremost Bibek is an honest and hard earned living. Sewa of the society is another thing Gurujee preached. What kind of sewa is selling cigarettes? How does it benefit society? I think if these people refuse to sell cigarettes, they would probably make a little less money but not get sued for not selling cigarettes, or is there a law that states that if you open a gas station, you HAVE TO sell cigarettes?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

how can sikhs living in the west earn an honest living, when everything is built upon the rape and plunder of the economically less developed. Even doing an hard days honest work becomes tainted because most of the corporations people work 'honestly' for make money through dishonest means. you cannot do an honest days work in the modern world unless you are ignorant and naieve.

selling cigarettes is a minor sin, compared to let us say working for a slaveowner. Taking a wage from a multinational company that destroys the environment abuses human rights etc, is much worse than selling tobacco.

Is tobacco going to affect an individual who lives in the city where the smog ruins his lungs anyway?

During the times of our gurus was there as much pollution as there is now?

What about selling somasa that are dripping with oil to people, this must affect their health adversly.

was there junk food in punjab in the 1600's if there was then the guru's would surely have opposed this type of food, so selling junk food is as much of a sin as selling ciggies.

[Mehtab Singh]

Some very good points, but I think you'd have to consider the difference between what is within your control versus what is not, the difference between the magnitude of harm a cigarette would cause versus a burger. You cannot control the government from doing their dirty job, can you? You are not poisoning the burgers before selling them, whereas cigarettes are no less than poison themselves, right? But I agree you make good points.

[Pheena]

Why is the use of Tabla which has Goat skin on it allowed in the Gurudwara when Sikhi is against meat?

Why are the words of a Chammaar included in the Guru Granth Sahib when he must have dealt with skin of an animal.

Sure Bhagat Ravidas ji did not consume the meat, but he dealt with his in his daily life as a shoemaker. According to your logic then that too is wrong? You should also look into the occupation of other Bhagats whos words are in the Guru Granth Sahib such as Bhagat Sadahna who was a butcher.

[kirpa_karo]

Sikhi is against meat.

Is it ?

[wahegurubol]

You dont get it.

Sikhi is against TOBACCO. So by not smoking but by selling we are just propogating the idea of SMOKING. The money that we make comes out of other people by the cigarette and smoking it down.

If I was to work with your analogy then I think it would be right to work at a butcher shop and do halaal of animals and NOT eat meat and still be FINE !

If Guru saved the butcher it doest mean that we start selling cigarettes. Ithink its wrong.

[Pheena]

Is it ?

I am going by the general consensus that you will likely hear from majority of the Sikhs.

[Pheena]

You dont get it.

Sikhi is against TOBACCO. So by not smoking but by selling we are just propogating the idea of SMOKING. The money that we make comes out of other people by the cigarette and smoking it down.

If I was to work with your analogy then I think it would be right to work at a butcher shop and do halaal of animals and NOT eat meat and still be FINE !

If Guru saved the butcher it doest mean that we start selling cigarettes. Ithink its wrong.

It is a fact that Bhagat Sadahana was a Butcher....if you think it is wrong for one to have an occupation as such and then call himself a Sikh then you need to reanalyze who you bow your head to and why. Because the words of Bhagat Sadahana are in the Guru Granth sahib along with Bhagat Sain who was a Barber.

If you think its wrong then you must also consider these Bhagats to be in the wrong.

[wahegurubol]

Is it ?

I do believe that sikhi is against meat. Even though at a certain point in my life I had eatin meat.

[akalisodhi]

sikhi seems to be against alot of things......

[Guest]

I like to remind sangat, this thread is not about "MEAT"

[Mehtab Singh]

Why is the use of Tabla which has Goat skin on it allowed in the Gurudwara when Sikhi is against meat?

Not too sure about this one.

Why are the words of a Chammaar included in the Guru Granth Sahib when he must have dealt with skin of an animal.

Did he kill them himself? Where does it say he killed them himself? Besides, Bhagat Ravidas jee was a cobbler I think (mochi). Cobbler's job is to fix shoes. I am not too sure if they deal with animal skin directly, although they do deal with the leather thats made from it. And most importantly, we need to keep in mind that we are not avastha as those Bhagats. Most of the time we forget this, and start thinking "If he/she could do this/that, why can't I", well do you have the same level of kamaaee, or even close?

Bhagat Sadahna who was a butcher.

Does a butcher always have to kill an animal as well, or can he just prepare their meat and sell it? Even those who sell meat are, in a way, butchers if I am not wrong. I would like to know though...

We are comparing apples and oranges. Whether it was Bhagat Sain , or Bhagat Sadhna, or Bhagat Ravidas ji, they were not causing any damage to society. A barber is doing his job by serving (of course non-Sikh LOL) people, a cobbler is doing his job by serving people (fixing footwear), a butcher is doing his job by serving people (sells meat which is acceptable to certain faith groups). Cutting hair and (for some) eating meat are things which are not allowed in Sikhi but are pretty much fine with other faiths. These bhagats were serving society (all religions) by their professions. I doubt any religion says that cigarette smoking is allowed, does it? Besides, cigarette packs have the label that cigarettes kill. We don't see any such warnings outside barber shops (doesn't mean we should go there LOL) or meat shops. I am not voting for hair cutting or eating meat here. Just stating that other faith groups are ok with these, and these bhagats were only serving a multi-religious society as a whole through their professions.

I cannot think of any moral, ethical or rational reason behind selling cigarettes. You can earn honest and hard earned in money in hundreds of other ways. Cigarettes cause lung cancer, cause brain damage to unborn infants, and what not. Cutting hair or eating meat doesn't affect an unborn child (in medical terms), nor does it make the person sitting/standing next to you a potential victim of a deadly disease (Again I am not saying that a Sikh should do these). Cigarette smoking does all this, and is a lot worse. Think about it, even a Sikh who cuts his hair and eats meat will never ever dream of smoking (I have come across some) unless he is a lost case (I have some across these species too LOL).

Please forgive me if you think I am judging someone. I feel that a Sikh is to serve society, not earn money by selling poison. I strongly feel that if Sikhs stop selling cigarettes and alcohol from their gas stations, we would be giving out an extremely positive message to society right away. Our local community would look upon us as ethically and socially responsible members of the community we live in.

Think about it, and let me know where I am wrong

[Pheena]

Not too sure about this one.

It is said that when this Bakra was alive, the continous use of Mai Mai Mai, the sound of Houmai resonated within him. But when dead at least his skin will be used to sing the praise of the Guru and then helping others to become one with God he too will be liberated...such is the story I've heard.

We are comparing apples and oranges. Whether it was Bhagat Sain , or Bhagat Sadhna, or Bhagat Ravidas ji, they were not causing any damage to society. A barber is doing his job by serving (of course non-Sikh LOL) people, a cobbler is doing his job by serving people (fixing footwear), a butcher is doing his job by serving people (sells meat which is acceptable to certain faith groups). Cutting hair and (for some) eating meat are things which are not allowed in Sikhi but are pretty much fine with other faiths. These bhagats were serving society (all religions) by their professions. I doubt any religion says that cigarette smoking is allowed, does it? Besides, cigarette packs have the label that cigarettes kill. We don't see any such warnings outside barber shops (doesn't mean we should go there LOL) or meat shops. I am not voting for hair cutting or eating meat here. Just stating that other faith groups are ok with these, and these Bhagats were only serving a multi-religious society as a whole through their professions.

Wine was a regular part of life during the time of Jesus and continues to be today in the lifestyle of Christians...should wine then be subject to this view point as well?

[Mehtab Singh]

It is said that when this Bakra was alive, the continous use of Mai Mai Mai, the sound of Houmai resonated within him. But when dead at least his skin will be used to sing the praise of the Guru and then helping others to become one with God he too will be liberated...such is the story I've heard.

I faintly remember this now. New information!

Should we be so fortunate that we take birth as animals in the homes of these Bhagats to be killed by them for their use. Perhaps then we might be of some use.

Firstly they are not physically present today (they are in spiritual form), secondly our next janam is not in our hands. Thirdly, to be of use to such bhagats would require a mega load of kirpa.

Wine was a regular part of life during the time of Jesus and continues to be today in the lifestyle of Christians...should wine then be subject to this view point as well?

The issue in question is Sikhs selling cigarettes. If Christians are ok with wine, they are free to buy or sell it, especially if they think its their religious thing. Sikhs don't force their rules on others, but we should hold firm to what we believe in.

[Pheena]

yes, but those Bhagats were Sikhs as well and as you suggested they were selling to their multi-religious cultures. Can Sikhs of this time sell wine to serve the multi-religious culture such as Christianity?

[Mehtab Singh]

yes, but those Bhagats were Sikhs as well and as you suggested they were selling to their multi-religious cultures. Can Sikhs of this time sell wine to serve the multi-religious culture such as Christianity?

Good question, and simple answer: Wine (which is alcohol), in a Sikh's eyes, is NOT serving society, therefore a Sikh wouldn't sell wine. Christians, like I said, are free to purchase it if they feel it has a religious significane. That doesn't imply that they are obliged to purchase it only from a Sikh. Thats the bottom line. There are plenty of non-Sikh gas station owners, and if their religion doesn't have a problem with wine, then thats for them to decide. Sikhs are to serve the society in a manner that is not harming it. You could very well argue that cutting hair, handling animal skin etc. are also "unSikh". But compare these to cigarettes and alcohol and decide which is harmful. I am not saying "which is more harmful", just saying "harmful". Non-Sikhs (and some Sikhs) eat meat, non-Sikhs (and modern day Punjabis) cut their hair as well. I repeat, these do NOT have any harmful effect on another person. Cigarette smoking does. Lets not divert the topic from cigarettes to alcohol (although both are forbidden for a Sikh). I am interested to know if there is any religious ritual that asks Christians to consume alcohol (wine). The little that I know, I thought its some different sort of wine prepared separately.

[wahegurubol]

sikhi seems to be against alot of things......

strangely, i have also heard about a gurudwara near hazoor sahib where the parshaad served is actually meat.. its not karah parshaad, it is meat parshaad... !

[Guest]

There is sakhi which is shared by many sikh mahapursh to the sangat, the sakhi of sri guru gobind singh ji horse wouldnt go near tabacco field..if someone can post the whole sakhi that be great... If sri guru gobind singh ji horse wont go near tabacco field what makes people think its acceptable for sikhs to seel tobacco, this thought is totally beyond me

I ll scan huge chapter of tabacoo from sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale- gurmat rehit maryada booklet will post it up.

[Mehtab Singh]

Yes Neo veeray you are right. Gurujee's horse refused to go near tobacco fields. Even ordinary animals like cows, buffaloes etc. were seen once to move their face away from tobacco plant, so why do humans shamelessly consume it.

Here is a katha by Gyani Thakur Singh ji on the massive spiritual disadvantage of tobacco. Anyone having doubts listen to it before posting:

http://www.gurmatveechar.org/audio/katha/0...kh.Di.Rehat.mp3