Vaheguru Gurmantar

[mit]

I read on a website, sikhism.us i think, that any one who recites the Gurmantar and they have not chakked amrit, the gurmanter is powerless and that this can only be initiated by the panj piaras.

can somebody please explain to me wjhy this was stated as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji states Vaheguru Gurmanter is for everyone.

Mit.

[amardeep]

Ganika chanted Ram ram without being initiated into any fold and she was given mukhti so i do not think one has to be initiated into the khalsa to recieve the benefits of Gurmantar.

[Mithar]

Ganika was given the Ram naam by the Sadhus who had visited her house. At first they she did not want to do Simran as the Sadhus had asked her, but after the Sadhus had instructed her to teach the parrot to say Ram, she began doing Simran as she taught the bird to pronounce Ram. Ram Nam has Paaras Kalaa to it. The more you do simran of it the more you like it.

Bhagat Kabir Jee also took Naam from Bhagat Ramanand jee. Otherwise what was the need for Bhagat kabir jee to lie down on the ground waiting for Bhagat Ramanand jee to cross his path? Obviously to get naam from him.

Of course doing Simran without the Guru giving naam to you also has positive effects because doing Simran of Ram Naam can never go to waste, it is always positive, but it's effects are more powerful if you get Naam from the Guru.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Naam from Guru and bachan from Mahapursh/Gurdev are very important for doing simran. But to suggest its powerless without armit seems a bit silly, Guru Nanak gave gurmantr to to the world. Are their any historical references to amrit sanchar being a process where naam is passed. No doubt that amrit is unbelieveably powerful, but is their any account from historical granths or rehatname that process amrit is related to recieving naam? Would appreciate if more people could share their knowledge/opinion on this.

[shaheediyan]

I would expect those that received "Gurmantar" from Guru, would have also been intitiated i.e. received charan amrit.

I would be interested to here from our Namdhari brothers as to why their tradition holds that Gurmantar is given to those that have taken amrit and is to be kept gupt from non-initiates, there may some answers to be found in this tradition... please correct me if my assumptions are wrong...

Also we must consider the fact that Gurmantar is 'formally' given to Sikhs by the Panj Pyare - although some Sant do advise sangat to recite generally.

I suppose one way of looking at it is, it's Gurmantar if your Guru gives it to you (Panj Pyare roop). And your Guru is only your Guru if you become his disciple (formal initiation)...

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਇ ਨਾਉ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ।

Just some food for thought...

[fatehsingh]

From what I understand reading the original post, the website sikhism.us is saying the same thing that Namdharis believe in, i.e. Naam can only be recieved from the Guru or those approved by him. Per my understanding of the Akal Takhat's maryada, the Panj Pyare are representative of the Guru and the only time Gurmantar is told to a novice by the panj pyare also happens to be during the Amrit Sanchar ceremony only. So in other words all those who recite Naam themselves without having recived it from what can be perceived as the Guru or his representative in their traditions can be seen as unfruitful. Not to say there are no exceptions but even Kabir had to come up with a way to hear the word 'Raam' from Ramanand who was the Guru of that time.

As per Mr. Shaheediyan's question, Naam is given to non-Amritdharis in the same way Diwan Nand Lal and others were s well. Those who fall in this category are Sahejdharis per the Namdhari tradition. A modern example would be the late Ustad Vilayat Khan and family.

[mit]

Thanks for the replies! With respect from recieving it from the true guru, isnt the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji the highest, most truthful guru of them all. Does that mean if i havnt recieved Naam from Panj Piaray, my recitation of Vaheguru will be unfruitful?

[shaheediyan]

Mit, please give a reference from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for this hukum.

More interestingly, was Vaheguru mantar known to all in the old days, but not recited until it was formally given...

This also leads to the question, was parchaar of Bhai Gurdas diyan Vaaran done to the general sangat, or were they a learning and selective preaching tool for the initiated – I ask this question because this is where the Gurmantar is first revealed in writing.

[amardeep]

Waheguru mantar is mentioned in

Bhai Gurdass vaara

Sau Sakhi

Bhai Nand Lal tankhanamah

Bhai Chaupei Singh rehitnama

Prem Sumarag

[jsingh96]

not to mention sarblohgranth

[amardeep]

Sarbloh Granth yes,.. its also mentioned in the mangal charans of Dasam Granth but it does not tell you to recite it in anyway so i did not include it in the list.

[fatehsingh]

mit, let's not bring back the old argument about whether or not the Granth Sahibs can give Naam in the novice's ear as written in the Sri Adi Granth Sahib: 'Mantar Dio Gur Kaan' which is carried out by Panj Pyare in mainstream sikhism. The argument is a waste of time as everyone is subject to their own beliefs and personal interpretation.

Shaheediyan there's no way we can know for sure unless with time travel. Again this brings back the old argument if 'written revelation' is the same or has the same effects revelation of Gurmantar via dehdhari Gurus in the past.