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Reincarnation, Karma, Free Will

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What is Re-incarnation?

There are many persons in this world who do NOT or do NOT want to believe in reincarnation. If anyone does NOT believe, then please read this article with open mind.

• Why every born child has certain distinctive character traits? From where our basic character comes from?

• Why there are some people with born disabilities?

• Why there are some infants who are dead within few hours of their birth?

• Why some good people do all things right, but still a lot of bad things happens to them and vice-versa?

There are 3 possible answers to the above questions:

A first possibility, is Materialists would say that our basic character is determined by the genes we inherit from our parents, and by which of these genes are activated in our bodies. If asked why we have the parents we do have, and what determines which genes are active and which are recessive, they would answer in a single word: chance. But invoking chance explains nothing; it implies in fact that there is no explanation: things just happen to be the way they are. Materialists would also say that the person with born disabilities have certain wrong genes or had abnormal growth; But why that particular gene went wrong? Efforts to reduce the wonders of life and mind to random physico-chemical interactions are grossly inadequate and unsatisfactory.

A second possibility is that there is a God, a divine being, who creates a new human soul for each newborn child. If God gives us our character and decides the circumstances of our birth, HE would also bear a major responsibility for all the subsequent events of our lives. It would mean that people suffer because it's God's will that they should suffer. A being capable of such cruelty and injustice would surely be a senseless being rather than a "God."

A third possibility, and the most reasonable, is reincarnation due to our own Karma. According to this view, our souls are reborn again and again until it merges with GOD after nullifying all its karmas. We sow seeds that we shall harvest in future lives. There is no such thing as chance, but rather a network of karma, whereby the consequences of all our thoughts and deeds ultimately rebound upon us, either in this life or in a future life. When a soul returns to incarnation, it is drawn by affinity to the parents who can provide it with the body and environment best fitted to the tendencies it already possesses. So rather than inheriting our characteristics from our parents, we actually inherit them through our parents from ourselves -- from our own past.

Some people say that "How a man could become an animal"?

The answer is why it is not possible? e.g a driver driving a car can also drive a cycle/truck/airplane etc.. We are NOT our body. We are the Soul and NOT the body; the soul is the driver of our physical body. Soul can be placed in any of the 8.4 million species to reap the fruits of our karmas that a soul sow while in the human body.

Now, that we've seen that the result of karmas is re-incarnation; but exactly are the details about Karma philosophy?

What is Karma?

Karma is action whether involuntary or voluntary taken in the human life. Every action creates an effect or fruit. The fruit has to be experienced. Good karma creates Sukh (peace, health, happiness etc.); bad karma produces Dukh (sickness, pain, suffering etc.). The fruit comes to us either

• Immediately

• Delayed

• Carried over to next birth

• Or stored, to be carried over to the life beyond the next

Due to our karmas we're wandering in 8.4 million species. We sow in human birth and then reap in next births (which could be any of the 8.4 million species including human birth). Whatever is coming to us is on account of the actions that we have performed before. Every action creates a seed (good or bad) or ‘samskara’ or in scientific terms an ‘impression’. This seed creates in the mind a strong urge to repeat the action. Repeated actions create habit patterns. These habit patterns create our inner nature, our likes/dislikes, our capacities and limitations, our biases and prejudices etc. We all are born with a certain personality trait because of these mind impressions. This is an old saying: An act becomes a habit; habit makes a character; and the character makes destiny. In order to better understand the Karma philosophy, one first needs to understand the reincarnation philosophy. Actually re-incarnation and karma goes side-by-side. Reincarnation is the result of karmas.

How Karma could be done?

Karma could be done by 3 different ways: All the following types of karmas DO have their corresponding reward/punishment based upon good/bad karmas.

Body/Physical: Karmas done through body. e.g Doing sewa/service of Sad-Sangat which is a good karma; Killing somebody which is a bad karma.

Mind/Thoughts: Karmas that are done with the thoughts only. e.g Thinking of going to Gurdwara place but was not able to go. This is good karma.; Making plans to harm somebody in mind.

Speech/Words/Tongue: Karmas done are done with the tongue. e.g Thinking of another woman in mind; Doing path with tongue is good karma; Calling names or saying bad about somebody is bad karma.

Types of Karma:

Sanchita Karma: The total sum of past karmas (good + bad) yet to be resolved. In other words: The accumulation of past good and bad actions.

- Think of them as the “Arrows in the Quiver”.

- Cancelling? Bad Sanchita Karma can be erased through the spiritual practice or with Guru’s grace.

Prarabdha Karma: That portion of sanchita karma that is to be experienced in this life. In other words these are the portion of sanchita karmas used up to create the present physical body, relatives, and the experiences we are to encounter in this life.

- Think of them as the “Arrows in Flight”.

- e.g Prarabdha karma will awake you early morning to do Path, but one needs to do udham/take action to wake up.

- e.g As per our Prarabdha karma: GOD has given us human birth; then Sat-Sangat; then Guru de sharan. Now, we should work hard and reach GOD by walking on the path as told by our Gurus.

- Cancelling? Prarabdha Karmas which are already in process of yielding the result can not be erased in any case. But the way/timing/effect can be manipulated e.g let’s say something bad was going to happen you, but because of your Spiritual practice that bad thing happens in dream only.

Kriyamana/Udham Karma OR Free Will: The karma that humans are currently creating and will bear fruit in the future. These are the actions that are done out of total free choice and NOT compelled by the forces of past karma. These actions help in the release of the soul from bondage to matter.

- Think of them as “Arrows in Hand”.

- All the scriptures are based on this fact and they advise directing the "Free Will" in the right channel.

Do we really have a "Free Will" or Kriyamana/Udham Karma?

There are three basic positions we can adopt on the question of "Free Will":

• Either we have absolute free will, or

• We have no free will at all, or

• We have a certain measure of free will.

Our "Free Will" is like the very limited freedom of a dog on a leash/chain. In other words, there is "Free Will", although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. It is because the environments around us, the relatives around us, and the situation in which we are at the moment are controlled by our past karmas. GOD created such atmosphere (based upon our karmas) and then gave us the choice: sometimes easy enough to decide and sometimes hard to decide. Our whole thinking process, habits etc. are made up from the subconscious mind and which in turns is based upon the impressions from the past karmas. In other words, the choices and decisions we make are greatly influenced by the habitual patterns of thought, feeling, and behavior arising from our past.

Actually "Free Will" is a delusion as long as one is a slave to the ego's fears and desires. As long as individuality/ego lasts there is "Free Will". "Free Will" can be exercised only when one is aware and unattached to desires, and the dualities of life, and has no ego. By cultivating vairagya (detachment) one sees beyond liking and disliking, success and failure, loss and gain, pleasure and pain, to the Truth of things. Abiding in the awareness of the Truth, one can act "freely," no longer a slave to fear or desire. Otherwise, "Free Will" is a delusion, merely a servant of egoistic desires and preferences. If karmas ("Free Will") are done without the ego, then this "Free Will" is actually the GOD's will and therefore we do NOT have to bear the results of that “Free Will”.

Any change in karma will have an influence on the ego, since what the ego can or cannot do has changed. Any change in the ego will thereby influence karma, since how such limitations are handled has changed; this effect emphasizes the idea of free will. The existence of "Free Will" is only in relationship with ego. The more egotistic a person, the more he asserts the existence of "Free Will". At the other extreme, God realized persons are the ones who have totally surrendered their ego to God and they assert there is nothing like "Free Will" and whatever exists is God's will.

God reciprocates with everyone according to their desires (good or bad) and allows them to fulfill desires generated by "Free Will". Lord uses His illusory kinetic energy called Maya to engage the living entities in good and bad acts according to their desires and their previously accumulated good and bad Karma.

For example: The following example raises the question of “Free Will”

Gerard Croiset was a remarkable Dutch psychic. He repeated an experiment for 25 years with known as "chair test," in which he describes in advance the person who would sit in a randomly chosen chair. In one experiment he said that the person who would sit in the chair selected would be a man 5’9’’ tall, who brushed his black hair straight back, had a gold tooth in his lower jaw, etc. etc. Two weeks later the meeting took place, and the person who sat down in the chair concerned was a man who fitted his description.

Plan to get rid of Karmas and get merged with GOD:

• Have a GURU. This is must because GOD has setup a rule that GURU is must before we get Mukti.

• Do religious prayer/simran/paath etc. as per your Guru to cancel the bad Sanchita karma, and to make bad Prarabdha karma less effective.

• Awareness regarding the Kriyamana karma so that we can avoid doing more bad karmas and leave Ego. Actually if we do everything WITHOUT ego then all of the Kriyamana karma are of GOD and GOD always do good.

One of the Maha-purash said:

• Do Satsang of Puran Sadhus/Sant/Mahapurash.

• If you cannot that that, then: Do Nitnem, Isnan, and Dhan.

• If you even cannot do that, then: At least stay away from the paaps/bad karma.

• If you even cannot do that, then: It is better to die.

"Those who act in ego do not go beyond karma. It is only by Guru's Grace that one is rid of ego."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib

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excellent post das veer ji,

I spoke to baba jagjit singh ji harkhowale about parlabaadh karam. He said, parlabadh karam can only be destroyed after getting bedah mukh avastha. Even bhramgyani who is jevan mukht cannot get rid of parlabadh karam for eg- they still have to kriya, that itself is parlabadh karam even their way of passing away is parlabadh karam. Once bhramgyan releases his body made out of 5 elements and get bedah mukht avastha then parlabdh karam are destroyed because there is no coming back in this world.

However i m not too sure if parlabadh karam applies to karak bhramgyanis, guru avtar. It probably doesn't. may someone can confirm it from mahapursh.

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Naturally Sant Ji is right.......Prarabdha Karma canNOT be erased in any case OR say canNOT be erased until one dies...or say gets rid of the physical body because physical body is made from the Prarabdha Karma. We can destroy the arrow once it hit the target but we have no control once arrow is in air.

I am in the boat as you as I do NOT how this works: for Guru Avatars and Karak Brahmgyanis etc......read the following:

As per Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib) wale, "even Avatars has to bear the fruits of their Karmas." It's NOT something that they cannot do, it's just that everyone has to follow rules.


The person who fired arrow on KrishanJi and thus Krishan Ji left His physical body. When the person saw that it was Krishan Ji, then he repented that he has not fired the arrow at Him, actually he fired the arrow at Mirg....then Krishan Ji told him not to worry because He (KrishanJi) also killed that person in His previous birth as Balli.

I do NOT know about Guru Avatar's Karma.......I personally take it as: Karma does NOT apply to Karak and Guru Avatars................The Guru Avatars were NOT physically present and therefore did NOT have any Karma associated with it........I remember one sakhi where one sewadar tried to hold Guru Gobind Singh Ji's feet, but could not because GuruJi let it maya off and then there was no physical body associated with it......in another sakhi, after Guru Nanak Dev Ji's jote-jot hindus and muslims quarrel regarding who will take the possession of the GuruJi's body so that they can do their rituals.....but when they removed the cloth from the Guru Ji's body, then there was NO body.......the reason being Maya.......Guru Ji used HIS own power called Maya to identify HIMSELF as human being in this world......in reality THEY were NOT made of 5 elements........and this is my take, and everyone has its own thinking.

Now, against my thiking: There is another sakhi where a bhagat of Guru Ram Das Ji named as "Bhai Aadam" requested one son from HIM. Guru Ji said that you do NOT have any son in your karma but I have 4 sons in mine, so I will give you one of my supposed to be son. Here it seems like it is contraditing to my Guru Avatar's and Karak's view.......but I treat it as:

- Both the versions are 101% correct.

- Sometimes Sants say a thing in a different way but we cannot comprehend it completly because of our limited bhud.

- Till now, Both the things are 100% true but I do NOT have the capacity to understand this....may be one day with GOD's grace I might understand this, but BOTH the things are 100% correct.

I'll also try to get the answer regarding the Guru Avatar Karma vs Krishan Ji's karma etc.

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Just a few questions, you said

Have a GURU. This is must because GOD has setup a rule that GURU is must before we get Mukti.

Why is it a must to have a Guru?

Can you not do bhagti without following a religion?

Also you said killing someone is bad karma. Is it still bad karma when you kill an enemy? e.g when Sikhs killed Mughals in battles?

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Just a few questions, you said

Why is it a must to have a Guru?

Can you not do bhagti without following a religion?

Also you said killing someone is bad karma. Is it still bad karma when you kill an enemy? e.g when Sikhs killed Mughals in battles?

I think he will be in better position to clarify what he meant by his post or answer your question. I think his post is not suggesting to replace - sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj- shabad guru with human guru. What his post is putting emphasis on is to get vidya gurdev(teacher)/sant to learn about sikh theology and adhyatamic Sikhi. Here is rational explanation just like one cannot do/get phd in worldly studies without an teacher/professor just like that in Sikhi marg for the most part one requires an teacher to teach the tat gurmat sidhant (essence of gurmat) within sri guru granth sahib ji....if you want further clarification, just read my signature. :)

I hope that helps.

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Neo bhaji has already written the answers. Let me throw my 1 cent also:

"Why is it a must to have a Guru?"

- It is because it is GOD's rule. When I say, Guru is must...........it means GURU who is already one with GOD and know the route to reach GOD. In Sikhism, till 9th Guru there was a ceremony called Charan Pahoul/Amrit where a person formally have a Guru. But starting with 10th GuruJi, HE started Khande da Amrit which is Sanskar Amrit and it is the time when we say that we have a GURU. But it does NOT mean that all the world should convert to Sikhism if they want to have GURU. Anyone can have a human teacher who is TOTALLY one with GOD, a Puran Brahmgyani. Having Guru is the first step on the route to the GOD. After that Sankar Amrit, one needs to have Naam Amrit and Gyan Amrit as the next steps in order to reach Waheguru.

In Bhai Gurdas Diyan Vars, please have a look on the following:

ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਅੰਤਿ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥੧੫॥

ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਿਣੁ ਜੂਨਿ ਭਵੰਦਾ ॥੪॥

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਉਂ ਘਰੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਬੂਹੇ ॥੧੩॥

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਣੀ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੈ ਖਲਾਸੀ ॥੧੪॥

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਈਐ ਜਾਈਐ ॥੧੬॥

ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਲਖਨ ਤੁਲ ਤਿਸ ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਿਣ ਨ ਆਏ ।

"Can you not do bhagti without following a religion?"

- One can do bhagati and other good karma without following a religion or say without having a GURU, but that would NOT help him to achieve mukti. Good karma (including doing bhagti) without Guru will help him/her to have some comforts when he/she goes to other 8.4 million species but in any case cannot help him/her to achieve another human birth what to say about the mukti. Even in this world one cannot get Masters or Phd degree without enrolling in a school.

"Also you said killing someone is bad karma. Is it still bad karma when you kill an enemy? e.g when Sikhs killed Mughals in battles?"

As per my limited bhud......my take is: If GuruJi killed any enemy in war, then naturally that killed person becomes mukt and also it is NOT bad karma for GuruJi because Guru are above karma in that sense. And if a ordinary person kills a enemy in war then I do NOT have a clear answer......may be depends upon who instructs them to be at war and for what reason they are fighting....and may be the killing person is just doing his karma because in previous birth the other person could have killed the now killing person.

e.g we are doing lot of bad karma every day unintensionally by killing the germs that we intake while breathing etc.

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Thank you for the replies :)

Could you possibly explain Sankar Amrit, Naam Amrit and Gyan Amrit and the differences between them?

Also im guessing by sankar Amrit you mean Khandeh di Paul? is Khandeh di Paul Amrit ceremony simply an initiation into the sikh fold and accepting Guru Granth as Guru? Can you not accept Guru Sahib as Guru without taking Amrit or is Amrit a must?

Also Neo Ji what is Adyadhamic Sikhi? I'm not familar with these techinical terms :( lol

Maybe you could create a glossary of words :P

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Also Neo Ji what is Adyadhamic Sikhi? I'm not familar with these techinical terms

It just means spiritual sikhi. The actual inner essence of Sikhi.

lso im guessing by sankar Amrit you mean Khandeh di Paul? is Khandeh di Paul Amrit ceremony simply an initiation into the sikh fold and accepting Guru Granth as Guru? Can you not accept Guru Sahib as Guru without taking Amrit or is Amrit a must?

To live lifestyle of Khalsa as given by sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj, you must take khanda da amrit- (5 kakars, recite 5 baniya, mool mantar, gurmantar, do seva)

To live lifestyle of Sikh you may or may not take khanda da amrit but as per gurbani but you must take gurmantar/naam mantar from puran bhramgyani/sant.

Sikhi from socio-religious context requires student to take khanda da amrit, encourages student to be Khalsa and have only one ishatdev which is sri guru granth sahib ji and beleive in all 10 guru's/khanda da amrit/rehat maryada.

Sikhi from wider context, same context where all the muslim and hindu bhagats were consider Sikhs in Gurbani. They were consider sikhs regardless of their various different types of initiations, socio cultural life style, rehni-behni, outer kriya, inner maryada. That is blunt truth no one can deny that. Ones who deny this very fact want to bind sikhi in their little box. But parkash of sri guru nanak dev ji sikhi destroy their little box that they live in, sikhi is anadi (aad sach, jugad sach, hai bhi sach, nanak hosi bhi sach).

Before someone takes me out of context, declares fatwa against me or create blogs over my post, please re-read my post very very carefully.

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Before someone takes me out of context, declares fatwa against me or create blogs over my post, please re-read my post very very carefully.

No we wont read your posts carefully cos the fatwa would be more fun!!!

i asked a christian about why they dont belive in re-incarnation, they said they beleive in resurection whereas the person comes back exactly how they where in the first life. Now surely that is still reincarnaiton albeit in a smaller version, i said. They sed yes but we call it resurection. we had a good argument loudly in the street.!

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though they love to scoff at the thought of transmigration into animal forms.

It is because we think of ourselves as a body.

e.g If a man living in a house says that I am a house, he would be wrong.

e.g Suppose a person says that cycle cannot drive truck..........he is wrong in understanding the basic thing that it is NOT the cycle who will drive the truck, in-fact it is the man who is driving the cycle and can also drive a truck.

Same way, we are NOT man, we're Atam Sehzade, we are spirits and a spirit can travel from man's body to animal body in next birth as per his/her karma.

Can you not accept Guru Sahib as Guru without taking Amrit or is Amrit a must

I feel that in Sikhism in order to accept Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru, we need to take Khande da Amrit.

What is Amrit?

There is only one definition of Amrit: It breaks away the cycle of birth and death. There are different layers/types of Amrit that needs to be obtained in order to fulfill the life’s aim (to merge with GOD).

Why Amrit is required?

In order to understand the need to Amrit, let’s go through the following points:

1. The aim of this life is to merge with GOD.

2. In order to merge with GOD; 3 things are required

o Simran/Reciting God’s name

o Dhayan/Concentration

o Gyan/Knowledge

3. The sequence from top is

o Gyan is required in order to merge with God. (Gyan Amrit or Atam Ras)

o Naam is required to have Gyan. (Naam Amrit)

o Guru is required in order to learn the Naam simran techniques. (Sanskar Amrit)

Types/Layers of Amrit:

1. Sanskar Amrit: It is the first step/stage towards merging with GOD. In every religion it is must to have Guru. In Sikhism our Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and we have to accept Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru by initiating into Khande da Amrit. So, in Sikhism it is the ceremony where a person accepts Guru Granth Sahib Ji as his/her Guru by initiating into Khande da Amrit. Till 9th Guru, the Sanskar Amrit was Charan Amrit. Guru Gobind Singh Ji started Khande da Amrit. There are 5 Ks which are basically the rules that one needs to follow while studying in a Sikhi school. Sanskar Amrit is NOT something that which if you follow will attain mukti by itself. It is just the start of the journey. This stage is also called "Manjle Shariat".

2. Naam Amrit: It is the second step towards merging with GOD. Naam is given to its disciple and various techniques are taught for Naam simran. It should be obtained from Puran Sant. This stage is also called "Manjle Trikat".

3. Gyan Amrit or Atam Ras: It is the third step towards merging with GOD. This is the Amrit which is achieved when the person gets the Gyan/knowledge after following the techniques as told by the Puran Sant. It is also called Atam Ras. This stage is also called "Manjle Marfat".

We all are lost in Sankar Amrit. People say that take Amrit and be mukt. The reality is: Take Amrit and be Guru wale, avoid being Nigura, and start your journey towards GOD.

Keep in mind that it is NOT necessary for the entire world to get converted into Sikhism in order to have Guru. It is NOT something where we say that Sikhism is the only way to reach GOD. Any Puran Brahmgyani from any caste/creed/religion can be a Guru/teacher.

All religions are religious schools and each has 4 stages/classes:

1. 1st class (Manjle Shariat) - Sanskar Amrit and do 5 bania da path (Japji Sahib, Jap Sahib, Savae, Rehras Sahib, Kirtan SOhela). This is primary class. In Muslims, there are 5 namaj. In Hindus, there are 3 sandea.

2. 2nd class (Manjle Trikat) - Do Naam Abyaas through Brahmgyani.

3. 3rd class (Manjle Marfat) - Atam Gyan. The understanding of Nirgun comes. The eye to see the GOD opens.

4. 4rd class (Manjle Hakikat) - Jev merges with GOD.

What Guru Gobind Singh said

When Guru Gobind Singh has given Amrit to Panj Payaras, then they were given ALL the three Amrits at the same time.

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji said:

Khalsa is my special form I reside within the Khalsa.

HE means to the one who attains the Atam Rass and NOT just the Sanskar Amrit.

The defination of Khalsa as per Guru Gobind Singh Ji is:

Atam Ras Jeh Janye So Hi Khals Dev Prabh Meh Moh Meh Taas Meh Ranchak Nahin Bhed.

A Khalsa is the one who enjoys the Atam Ras (Gyan Amrit) – spiritual bliss – and who has been elevated to such a level that there is no difference between him, the SatGuru and Akal Purakh.

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For the 2nd class, is it just necessary to have an advanced jugti of simran, or must one actually learn a technique from a bhramgyani (or non-bhramgyani sant) (ie have them put their hand on your head)?

Also, how would you reconcile the 2nd class with the experience of Baba Harnam Singh ji Rampur Khera who did seva of a mahapursh for many years, and then ultimately left that mahapursh without the mahapursh giving them anything. Baba ji then decided Guru ji was his only sant and went on to reach bhramgyan himself.

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For the 2nd class, is it just necessary to have an advanced jugti of simran, or must one actually learn a technique from a bhramgyani (or non-bhramgyani sant) (ie have them put their hand on your head)?

Also, how would you reconcile the 2nd class with the experience of Baba Harnam Singh ji Rampur Khera who did seva of a mahapursh for many years, and then ultimately left that mahapursh without the mahapursh giving them anything. Baba ji then decided Guru ji was his only sant and went on to reach bhramgyan himself.

Firstly, Sant Baba Harman Singh Ji had NOT met Puran Brahmgyani when He was searching for Puran Sant. And this is the example in front of us that IF Guru Gobind Singh Ji has not given us the eternal Guru Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we all would have been searching for the Brahmgyani which is NOT a easy task.

let it put this way:

Naam Jugti has to be provided by your Guru/Teacher......in Sant Baba Harman Singh Ji's case: He totally depended on Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then Guru Granth Sahib initiates Naam within Him (2nd class). By 2nd class it is NOT meant that one will hear the technique physically from his Guru, it is possible that your Guru (not in physical form) will guide you in dreams and/or in your mind.

Sant Baba Harman Singh Ji did understand Guru Granth Sahib very well.......all the decision he takes, he always depends on GuruJi. If we depends upon Guru Granth Sahib Ji then HE will also help us but unfortunately he did NOT have a capability to understand Guru Granth Sahib to its core....we're taking everything written in GuruJi as black and white........so, let's say that in order to let us understand Guru Granth Sahib and it's treasure it is good to have Puran Sant as your torch bearer on the route that we picked as per our Guru Guru Granth Sahib Ji....................in-fact our Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji) is helping us if we're met with Puran Sant

Baba Harman Singh Ji had such a viavas on Guru Ji that if he needs some money for Gurdwara building then he knows that Guru Granth Sahib Ji will give him that money out of nothing......do we have that visvas?? can we leave our jobs or can we denote all our belongings to poor knowing that Guru Granth Sahib Ji will take care of us??? can we dive in river to offer our body to the water creatures?? can we jump from mountain thinking that 100% our Guru will catch us?? If the answer is yes, then you are fortunate enough that you can go without Puran Sant....Otherwise we need inspirition......in-fact all Sants asks us to take Amrit because they know that Guru Granth Sahib is eternal............Sant Baba Harman Singh Ji did not take Naam de jugti from a physicall person, but still we take guidance from the life of Babaji....BabaJi used to guide everybody whosoever comes to Him.....he never said that I won't help you......HELP is the other name of Sant.

In other terms, Puran Sant is NOT the bottleneck in one's spiritual growth..........Puran Sant is helpful if one does NOT have good karmas to understand the Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani to the core.......Spiritual Growth is totally dependent on your GURU and how you take your Guru.

I have NOT put the word Guru in the original post that: "Naam Jugti has to be provided by your Guru" because many times people instead of understand the core will start commenting on the Human Guru which was not my intention.

- In Sikhism as Guru Gobind Singh Ji ordered us that our Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have to take Khande da Amrit. Here Sants (Puran Sants) help us to understand the Guru because they are already one with Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Waheguru.

- In other religions, a Puran Sant/Mahapurash (who has already merged with GOD) could be a Guru.

On whole Universe and NOT just related to Sikhism

My thinking is that:

- Guru is must for everyone. The only requirement of Guru is that HE must be one who has already merged with GOD.

- Now, anyone can be one with God: it could be a person (Puran Brahmgyani) and also a eternal Guru Granth Sahib Ji (as in Sikhism).

- In all religions it is hard to find Guru because it is kalyug. But in Sikhism, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blesses us with eternal Guru Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Khande da Amrit so that Brahmgyani is NOT the bottleneck in our spiritual progress. Moreover, a Brahmgyani will also leave his/her physical body one day and then again his/her followers will start looking for another Brahmgyani; even tough the Brahmgyani never dies it's just the followers to seek to have its Brahmgyani in physical form always. Guru Gobind Singh Ji knew that we/sangat will start looking for Guru after He leaves the physicall form even tough He is always present, but we so called humans belive on something which our eyes can verify......secondly, all Brahmgyanis has to leave their physical body, therefore GuruJi created Khanda da Amrit to initiate us into Guru Granth Sahib Ji. "Khande da Amrit" was created as per GOD's order.

This is the reason why all Brahmgyanis (Puran Sant) always stress on Khanda da Amrit even tough they do have the capacity to leed his followers to merge with GOD........and they do NOT call themselves Guru/Teachers because they know that they will also leave their physical form and then their innocent followers will start the next search. So, They always offer us to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This is the also the reason that: Suleman in his tape said that in Sikhism it is easier to reach GOD because you can have Guru whereas other religions makes it harder. Suleman was asked a question that which religion is better.

But in any case, it does NOT prove that Brahmgyani is NOT required in Sikhism.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਉ ਦੁਇ ਭਲੇ ਏਕੁ ਸੰਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਰਾਮੁ ॥

ਰਾਮੁ ਜੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੋ ਸੰਤੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੧੬੪॥

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As a general rule, only panj pyares can give you naam. Its very important to have atleast one bhramgyani in panj pyares so that intensity of amrit given by Guru's and panj pyares back in 1699 is kept. There is only one documented case after 1699 where sikh have received the amrit from panj pyares who were all bhramgyanis. That was maharaja yadvinder singh i beleive or someone from his family lineage. I forgot the rest of bhramgyanis name but two were- sant jawala singh ji harkhowale and sant nand singh ji maharaj. Basically they all came together from different samparda's to give amrit to this singh in form of panj pyares.

In most amrit sanchars, one of panj pyare is consider mukhi and spokeperson and gives you naam in form of panj pyares. But there are exceptional cases of bhramgyanis from puratan samparda's where naam along with naam jugti from gurbani is directly received from sant who have in the past taken part in panj pyares seva and consider a mukhi.

Please read chapter of atamgian between bhai dya singh ji and the sangat. In that chapter, it does not directly talks about this. However, bhai dya singh ji gives atamupdesh to the sangat, jugtiya to the sangat. From there you can draw the parallelism to naam jugti.

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Neo Ji what if there is no brahmgyani in the panj pyareh when giving out amrit? Is it still amrit? or will the effect it has on the indivduals be lesser? Do you think amrit is given to easily in this day and age? Also where can one take amrit where atleast one of the panj pyareh are brahmgyani?

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Neo Ji what if there is no brahmgyani in the panj pyareh when giving out amrit? Is it still amrit? or will the effect it has on the indivduals be lesser? Do you think amrit is given to easily in this day and age? Also where can one take amrit where atleast one of the panj pyareh are brahmgyani?

I don't think there would be any time in any dharam that there will be no bhramgyani. Have no doubt, Amrit is from Guru and its eternal. Outer amrit is given to students so that students can do abhayas and awake internal amrit- Nauo nidh amrit prabh ka naam dehi meh iska bisram ||. Whoever so administer it varies and effect it has on individuals are subtle but its important, if there are no bhramgyanis in the panj pyares. Lets just put it this way, if avastha of student who is taking amrit is higher than panj pyares who is giving amrit and intentions of student is to genuinely to merge with Vahiguroo then there is no effect.

Ultimately, regardless of avastha of panj pyares, they are guru roop when they are in panj pyares seva should not be demonize.

Amrit is given easily these days there is no doubt, so as qualification of being in panj pyares seva. We cannot change this but its important to be aware of such changes.

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  • 13 years later...
On 4/14/2009 at 6:17 PM, Vah said:

Just a few questions, you said

Q1)Why is it a must to have a Guru?

Q2)Can you not do bhagti without following a religion?


A1) It is utmost important to have a Guru, for  True Guru is not the body,  but the Jot of Waheguru Himself, and this Guru is known as Shabad Guru. 

When you close your eyes, do you not see darkness? Then in such darkness how can one even move an inch forward within?

There is where the Guru is needed, for with His akhoot Jot, He gives the Light and brings clarity to the soul, in its all way back till the soul reaches in the lap of our heavenly Father  Akal Purukh.

A2) The question does not arise of following or not a religion, the question is about following that what is correct and acceptable in His eyes, not manmat of people. 

Again, it is here that the valuable role of a true Guru is seen, for it is only the Guru as seen in Gurbani who reconects us with our origin Waheguru Akal Purukh, through Nam.


And the proof of what I am saying is seen the following 2 verses 


ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਸਚੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ॥

Guramathee Aap Gavaae Sach Pashhaaniaa ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, selfishness and conceit are eradicated, and the Truth is realized.


ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਣਿਆ 

Sachaa Sabadh Veechaar Sach Samaaniaa ||

Meditating deeply on the True Word of the Shabad, I have merged into the Truth.


By the way Vah Jee, can you tell me where and in which other dharmas, Guru Jee, and Nam Bhakti is advised, in order to cut our bonds from this mayavee creation and merge in Him for once and ever.

That is why  Guru and Guru bhakti(Gurmat) is required for any soul who really wants to go back to Him.

One may do bhakti all the 24/7, but as per Bani, if one has not meditated on Nam, one has done nothing, and shall go empty handed from this world, for Nam is the only eternal Truth.

The beauty of Gurmat is that, it reveals us the highest spiritual truths, in simple and practical ways for any ordinary being, for the sole purpose of achieveing the Highest soul consciousness abode, named Sach Khand.

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