The Upanishads And Gita In Gurbani

[amardeep]

Gurfateh singho.

How come the upanishads and gita are'nt mentioned in Gurbani? Considering their level of devotion to nirgun brahm and their teachings on karma, atma, samsara etc i would assume Gurbani would mention them as being relevant to read and discuss their content

[valli singh]

,

[amardeep]

yes that is true but what is this based on? Gurbani does'nt seem to deem this texts as high spiritual texts

[valli singh]

,

[Silence]

they are obviously not that great then

all are a waste of time, why would a degree student (sikh) go to playschool?

[SAadmin]

they are obviously not that great then

all are a waste of time, why would a degree student (sikh) go to playschool?

Simple answer, gurbani does not talk about basics but tat gyan of sidhants like- karam, atma, paratma, surti, samadhi, koshas, panj tat, panj gyan indraie, pamj karam indraie, antish karan- man, chit, budd, ahankar. To get basic understanding of such concepts you probably need to get gyan from books which offer basic understanding ie- vedant. I don't think one can understand tat gyan message behind gurbani without getting basic understanding of the concepts. This has nothing to do with hinduism or any ism for that matter.

[amardeep]

The mentioning of the Gita in the vaars of Bhai Gurdass

Even if Shastras, Smritis, Lakhs of Vedas, Mahabharat, Ramayan etc. are joined together;

Thousands of gists of the Gita, Bhagvats, books of astronomy and acrobats of physicians are joined;

Myriad's of knowledge's, meditations, recitations, philosophies, varnas and guru-disciples are there; they all are nothing.

The perfect Guru (Lord) is the Guru of the gurus and the holy discourse of the Guru is the basis of all the mantras.

The tale of the Word of the Guru is ineffable; it is neti neti (not this not this). One should always bow before him.

and

The way of learning the conduct of a Sikh of the Guru is that one should be the holy congregation.

This mystery was not known even to the ten incarnations (of Visrnu); this mystery is beyond the Gita and discussions.

Then the Vedas know not its secret though they are studied by gods and godesses.

The deep meditations of the siddhs, naths and even the tantta­tras could not cross the teachings and practices of Sikh way of life.

Millions of devotees flourished in this World but they also could not understand the life-discipline of the Sikhs of the Guru.

Absorption in the word of the Guru in the holy congregation is the accomplishment of the life of a gursikh.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

this is absurd Gurbani is not some sort of 'encyclopaedia' of religious teachings the teachings of the gita and upanishads are mentioned on every page of Gurbani

[amardeep]

in chapter 8, Arjuna asks Krishna whether its best to worship the formless or Krishna's body where Krishna then says its best to worship his body.

is this the reason why in bachitar natak it says the previous avatars promoted their own worship only

[SAadmin]

in chapter 8, Arjuna asks Krishna whether its best to worship the formless or Krishna's body where Krishna then says its best to worship his body.

is this the reason why in bachitar natak it says the previous avatars promoted their own worship only

Thats not what this sakhi meant. This sakhi is about krishna giving updesh to arjuna to meditate on vairat saroop of sargun vahiguroo. Previous avtar didnt fai' the movements its the followers who went astray from the path because they misinterpreted the teaching. Please listen to discussion with sant jagjit singh ji on this.

[Matheen]

Previous avtar didnt fai' the movements its the followers who went astray from the path ..........

That's not what Guru Sahib says in Dasam Bani.

[Kam1825]

If the Gita has no relevance for the Sikhs why would Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji personally compose a translation of it which can be found in some Dasam Granths. The Upanishads again were translated by the poets of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's court. Selected of portions can be found in the book called the Darbari Rattan by Piara Singh Padam.

The Sidhant within the Gita and Upanishads are all in accordance of Vedanta which is the self realisation of the soul. This is the same concept as Gurbani 'Man Tu jot Saroop hai Apna Mool Pahichan'.

To read the Gita and Upanishads is for the individual to do if they feel this can help them comprehend the details of Vedanta. Personally i have read some of them and find them helpful in understanding the use of gurbani and the bhav arths.

[SAadmin]

That's not what Guru Sahib says in Dasam Bani.

This is discussed earlier, to understand this bani in bachitar natak lets look at the conditions of both dharams- islam and hinduism around sri guru gobind singh ji time- these dharam followers start idiolizing their prophets instead of focusing on the prophets message they start bickering among each other who's prophet is better? and started idiolizing their prophets mind you this happens at sikh dharam as well which is sad.. anyway coming back to the point, around that time, this was a condition of the people who represented hinduism and islam. Guru maharaj looking at the sad state of people he deannouced this idiolizing of devi's/devta's and hari avtars like krishan/ram by reciting this tuk - Main Na Ganesha pritham maniyoo Kishan bishan kabhoo na Dhiayoo Kaan sune pehchan na tin ko Liv laagi mori pag unso" - I don't worship deities Krishna,Ganesha or Bishan

I have heard about them but do not recognise them. My saviour is One God, the almighty.

Now this is very important in the same sri dasam granth sahib bani- sri guru gobind singh ji warns his sikhs too regarding this of this grave danger that many hindus and muslims fell into idiolizing their prophet, he warned his sikhs by also reciting the tuk - aad ant eka avtara sohi sumjaieo guru hamera || that my guru is vahiguroo himself but when you look at sri guru gobind singh ji sahib life, his father was sri guru tegh bahudar sahib ji was his gyan data guru despite of that he said my guru is vahiguroo himself so that sikhs dont go astry idiolizing the deh or avtars. not only that in bachitar natak itself sri guru gobind singh ji went far as saying- those who call me god will burn in hell, one shouldnt take this tuk literally nor one should take that tuk as form of showing nirmata, guru ji had very clear message behind this, we should try to understand what guru ji is saying- guru ji again warning his sikhs not to idiolize me but focus on my message- shabad guru. Sri guru gobind singh ji is warning his sikhs not fo fall for this

Also to further reinforce my point, guru ji is avtar of vahiguroo we all agree so as krishan and ram. To future reinforce my point that krishan maharaj and ram chandar ji and all other hindu gods were avtars of vahiguroo.. sri guru gobind singh ji mentions this tuk in sri dasam granth sahib:

nirgun vahiguroo actualy transcedent in form of avtar in satyug/dvapar/treta from beginning of avtars birth to give gyan and benefit human kind we seem to ignore bhai gurdas ji varan and sri dasam patsah bachan in sri dasam granth sahib :

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara He said in sri dasam bani again-

Then Bhai gurdas ji mentions: Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||

In each age, the true guru will take avtar - nirgun vahiguroo transcedent itself into avtar.

Sri Guru gobind singh ji was very blunt in his message in his rachna- sri dasam guru granth sahib but that shouldnt be taken as form of disrespect to hindu gods but an reality of sargun avtars(which includes him as well). Here is another one

Ek Shiv bhai ek gyaie ek pher paie ram chandar kai avtar bhi anek hai ... (Sri Akaal Ustat)

He is telling us the reality of avtarhood that we(avtars) come go give the message of vahiguroo, its very important to follow the messsage not idiolize the messenger because avtars bodies were also made of 5 elements of shud satogun..one day they have to transcedent back to where they came from.

In essence, guru ji never criticized the krishan or ram he critized the people who idiolized them in above manner. Its absurd to think guru maharaj criticized previous avtars when avtars themselves come from Vahiguroo not Satan.

Matheen, please listen to discussion with sant jagjit singh ji from the last year. I don't want to beat the dead horse here.

Based on the gurbani- krishan, ram chandar are avtars of vahiguroo, to suggest that they failed, it implies- Vahiguroo himself is quite incompetent not capable to do the job properly as in send proper avtars in each respective yuga's to benefit human kind.

[SAadmin]

If the Gita has no relevance for the Sikhs why would Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji personally compose a translation of it which can be found in some Dasam Granths. The Upanishads again were translated by the poets of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's court. Selected of portions can be found in the book called the Darbari Rattan by Piara Singh Padam.

The Sidhant within the Gita and Upanishads are all in accordance of Vedanta which is the self realisation of the soul. This is the same concept as Gurbani 'Man Tu jot Saroop hai Apna Mool Pahichan'.

To read the Gita and Upanishads is for the individual to do if they feel this can help them comprehend the details of Vedanta. Personally i have read some of them and find them helpful in understanding the use of gurbani and the bhav arths.

perfect post singh, i totally agree with you 110%.

[amardeep]

Kam:

I read somewhere that some scholars say this translation and commentary of the gita was not written by Guru Gobind Singh as the language is more similiar to that of the court poets...i can't remember where i read this, i'll try to look it up

[Matheen]

Matheen, please listen to discussion with sant jagjit singh ji from the last year. I don't want to beat the dead horse here.

I agree about beating a dead horse, but in their latest recordings they mention the difference between Guru Sahib and previous Avtars.

[Silence]

at the end of the day, if you believe your Satgur is poora, you won't go begging anywhere else. It is nothing but an insult to your Guru to be his sikh and then go anywhere else for updesh. Somehow I don't think any other sishs of the the ancient guru traditions did contemplated on anything other than the exact teaching given to them by their guru, why would we make an exception with our Guru, the one who is GREATER than all those others in fact.

[SAadmin]

I agree about beating a dead horse, but in their latest recordings they mention the difference between Guru Sahib and previous Avtars.

Yes he did mentions there is a difference between guru sahib and previous avtars in terms of kala(powers). But he also said, just because there is kalan difference does not mean one is higher and other one is lower or my prophet is higher your is lower attitude because vahiguroo transcendent its power (kalan) in each yuga based on the need in each yuga. In kalyuga, pooran satguru was needed with limitless kalan, vahiguroo himself transcedent into sargun saroop of sri guru nanak dev ji, and all the previous yugs needed certain numbers of kalan , so vahiguroo himself transcedent in form of ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj, bavan avtar with different set of kalan. I guess main point we need to look at , where all this come from? do the previous avtar comes from satan? if yes , then off course they are evil (Christian take), but if they do comes from vahiguroo himself, how could vahiguroo transcendent into this earth in form of previous avtar considers failure, incompetent is beyond me.

Sant jagjit singh ji also said, sri guru nanak dev ji were anadi/nirankari jot , they were indeed all the along all the yugas, but certain insecure mindset like to hijack this into "my prophet is higher than your attitude". I felt that strong need to ask him, was sri guru nanak dev ji nirankari jot took form of ram chandar, krishan and bhavan in respective yugas? He said, yes quoted bhai svaieye, and bhai gurdas ji varan.

I meant either way you look at it in the course of being paranoid at one point one seems to get stuck, one cannot escape, gurbani nirana(decision) on avtarwood, it proves previous avtars before sri guru nanak dev ji didn't came from "Satan" but vahiguroo transedent its beauty, kalan into avtars based on the need of each yugas. I meant certain mindset cannot stand this fact, they seriously don't have answers to bhai gurdas ji varan, bhaite swaie, sri dasam granth sahib take on concept of avtars.

[shaheediyan]

Silence, why don't you try reading the posts.

No one is replacing Gurmat for any other mat - they are simply saying they use the original sources of the other mats mentioned in Gurbani to better understand the ancient concepts and terminology Guru sahiban have used.

What can't you accept in that?

Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhinderkalan did this, Sant Singh Maskeen did this as did Sants of nearly all Sampradic traditions.

Get a grip on your Hinduphobia.

If you want to better understand the Gurmat view Vs the views of other Indian schools read Bhai Gurdas Jis works. That this type of comparative analysis exits is evidence that Sikhs of past did learn and compare in order to better understand their own faith andin order to make parchaar more effective, which is why the Panth was consistantly replenished during the Ghallugaras and hard times of the 18thc - thanks to the Nirmalai Sampradas comparative education and parchaar across Indias many regions consisting of as many mats.

[amardeep]

the incident of Krishna and gopis is mentioned in most puranas . Where Krishna looks at the naked bodies of the gopis and asks them to have sex with him.. do we as sikhs belive that this took place or do we say that its a fabricated story

[Matheen]

N3O, ok let's see what Guru Sahib says about future avtaars. They clearly write that Kalki will get haumai and then even Mehdi Avtar will suffer the same. Kalki will be 'reabsorbed' into Akaal Purkh when he is killed, despite his shortcomings.

Now, Guru Sahib is not saying that Akaal Purkh has failed, just that the individual known as Kalki, despite being an Avtaar and coming from Akaal and going back to Akaal, got haumai and failed in the end. If you read the Chaubis Avtaar, similar things are said for the rest.

Didn't Bhrama himself forget where he came from and suffer for yugs?

Krishan may have been an Avtaar, but he still told Arjuna to worship him, as written in the Gita. Show me where Guru Sahib has ever told anyone to worship any other than Akaal Purkh.

[SAadmin]

Matheen veer,

I think you bought some good points which needs to be addressed.

First of all regarding kalki avtar future avtar, did you know even ravan was also some sort of an avtar? He was a teekakar of soo many granths, somewhere along the way he got humaie, but it was meant to happen, it was akaal purkh's tamasha, its hard to understand his leela where he creates villian out of his attributes and then he creates hero to kill that villian, in this case vahiguroo took avtar of ram to kill that dusht- ravan, same thing will be happening with kalki. In kalyug, there could be only one guru avtar which is sri guru nanak dev ji based on gurbani, kalki may be avtar but its no where it be seen by hari avtar or guru avtar. Kam and other more knowledgeable singh/singhani may be able to tell us what kind of avtar ravan was or kalki will be?

Second of all, regarding your point of krishan asked arjuna to worship him, first of all we don't know the context of it, we don't know if its vairaat saroop of krishan maharaj. Nevertheless, one may consider this comparison but this has to be done to prove a point, from ignorant person's view, if they find out sri guru maharaj ji have multiple wives in their ignorant mind, they may guru ji call sorts of name without understanding livelihood of avtars are different than us, one cannot compare avtars with regular joe blow like us or today's society. People in the past have did this towards other avtars of previous yugas or dharams judge them by wearing goggles of today's society. I think same thing happening in the panth, where missionaries and younger generation of akj does not believe in guru sahiban could have multiple wives and creates all sort of rubbish/insecure protestant type artiles try to debunk that, if they are proven wrong and acknowledge they were wrong that guru's cannot have multiple wives, Even with that going forward, i seriously think they will some elements of dubta/doubts towards their ishatdev/guru maharaj himself in their mind which is quite unfortunate, but they cannot help it because they bought into Protestant/Victorian influence of Sikhi...!

I think in the past i have seen mindset of Sikhs acknowledging that most of guru maharaj sahiban had multiple wives or acknowledging that sri guru hargobind sahib and sri guroo gobind singh ji used to hunt to give mukhti by saying we cannot compare ourselves to avtars, they were karaks, but they are quite hesitant to apply same right mindset to other avtars of previous dharams, one can only wonder, why this double standards?

[amardeep]

This is where the issue pops forth. If we know avatars can sucumb to their base instincts and haumei then how do we know that the Guru's did'n do the same? Neo mentions the multiple wives of the Gurus as an example. Most people will say that the Gurus were pure and holy and therefore these marriages were not conducted on the basis of lust, but if its possible that they are not holy and pure then the marriages might have been based on lust?? you see the issue here?

[Xylitol]

previous avtars who fell into haumai were avtars of vishnu, in other words they were avtars of a shakti of waheguru, not of waheguru Himself. Guru ji is an avtar of Akaal Himself, and hence completely above duality.

[amardeep]

Zylotol:

According to the Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna is Brahman,