Guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 The Khalsa Fauji, I have asked you plenty of times stick to the topic, please post full charitars not just one line in the charitar thread. Not everywhere on the forum. If you failed to comply with the rules, we are afraid we have to put you under moderation for quality control. Consider this is an friendly and last warning after that your posts will start getting moderated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Go here http://www.sikhmarg.com/your-view.html Post by Surjeet Singh dated June 1, 2009 has all the names but mine is not listed. His statement has no link, no official proof and he did not include any email to support his allegations. Anyone can fabricate a statement and put any names in it. I know Inder Singh and some of PW members and they are not RSS. Regardless, stick to the topic and stop making up lies. Bijlaa Singh, why are you ignoring the links from Khahan Singh Nabha's Gurmat Maartund? Why are you ignoring what he wrote on those pages of Gurmat Maartund? I am not ignoring anything. You stated his name first so it is your obligation to defend your position. You hid behind his name and when presented with contradictory evidence you run around by declaring everyone else wrong because they are not perfect. Well, by the same argument you are not perfect and therefore you are wrong. Now, randip singh can see why people cannot debate in a rational manner. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha supported Dasam Granth in Hum Hindu Nahin, Gurmat Sudhakar, Mahan Kosh and Gurmat Maartand. On top of that he wrote steek on Chandi Di Vaar so you need to defend why you are right and why bhoomika which could’ve been edited or written later is correct in the face of five sources written by Bhai Sahib and published during his lifetime? Otherwise, simply state your reasons and not hid behind anyone’s name, Prof. Sahib Singh and Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha were great people of Panth but they weren't perfect. None of those two specialized in Dasam Granth. Maybe you don't know but Prof. Sahib Singh didn't believe in Benti Chaupai. He used to read Chaupai in Akaal (Mahakaal) Ustat. Joginder SIngh Talwara translated Chariter Chaupai himself and put it in teeka that he published under Sahib Singh's name. What do you got to say about that? They were great scholars and did not write anything without studying it properly. It is simply foolish to discredit them without any shred of evidence. You (kal da shokra) do not know better than these scholars. He did not write a steek of Chaupai Sahib but doesn’t mean he did not believe in it. Prof. Sahib Singh declared Chaupai Sahib Bani of Guru Sahib and I provided you with the quote. Here it is again: "ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ, ਕਿ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਨੀ ਯਾਦ ਹੋਣ, ਜਿਹੜੀਆਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਪੜ੍ਹੀਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਭੀ ਤਿੰਨ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਹਨ-ਜਾਪੁ, ਸਵੈਯੇ ਤੇ ਚੌਪਈ। ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਸੁਤੇ ਹੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਨੀ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਉਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਆਮ ਸੀ, ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਬਾਣੀਆ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਸਨ”। He believed in Bachittar Natak as well but we can discuss it later in a different topic. It isn't shameful to say chariters are written by Guru Ji or compiled by Guru Ji for Sikhs? If chariters are for Sikhs, there must be a favourite chariter of yours. Samra made if clear on which one is his favourite. Why don't you make clear yours? I thought you would’ve had grown up a little but you are the same old kid. If samra doesn’t believe in chrittars then why have a favorite one? Those who believe in Dasam Granth do not look at Charittars as sex stories but only pick out the morals. I do have a favorite chrittar. It is chrittar of Noop Kuar in which the character (king) beautifully explains why illicit relation with other woman is against religious principles. This is how I look at it. Clearly, my perspective is different than that of samra’s or yours. Mentality shows who thinks like a Sikh and who thinks like a kaami person. Those who only see, think and talk about kaam are immoral and unethical people. Period. I personally think you are a besharam who instead of learning anything about morality only looks at sexual contents and then absorbs his mind in it. If anti-Dasam Granth people like yourself considers themselves to be true Sikhs then why is it that you people always twist chrittars and have nothing but lust on your minds? This topic was about Bhgauti but once again you brought in chrittars. Shows how rationally you are capable of debating and what exactly is in your mind all the time. Kujh sharam kha tay akal kar. Now are you ready to stick to the topic and discuss Bhgauti like a grown up? Then Chrittars can be discussed one by one. Discuss the contents in proper context. Funny, first you said you won’t debate online but you are the one posting more than all others. What a character. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 If anti-Dasam Granth people like yourself considers themselves to be true Sikhs then why is it that you people always twist chrittars and have nothing but lust on your minds? hahahahha this one cracked me up.. well said 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Post by Surjeet Singh dated June 1, 2009 has all the names but mine is not listed. His statement has no link, no official proof and he did not include any email to support his allegations. Anyone can fabricate a statement and put any names in it. I know Inder Singh and some of PW members and they are not RSS. Regardless, stick to the topic and stop making up lies. When did I say your name is on the list? Learn to read properly. I already clarified that bracket was related to Inder Singh and not you. Do you have reading disabilities? You accuse me of making up lies but you are the one who has been making them up for a while. I linked to portions of Gurmat Maartund where Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha rejects Chritropakhyan and wrote what a Sikh of Mahakaal should do. You should also read what he said about Akaal Ustat’s portions in his Gurmat Maartud. Your blind ego only sees the portiong Kahan Singh believed in but doesn’t see the Dasam Granth sections he rejected. I am not ignoring anything. You stated his name first so it is your obligation to defend your position. You hid behind his name and when presented with contradictory evidence you run around by declaring everyone else wrong because they are not perfect. Well, by the same argument you are not perfect and therefore you are wrong. Now, randip singh can see why people cannot debate in a rational manner. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha supported Dasam Granth in Hum Hindu Nahin, Gurmat Sudhakar, Mahan Kosh and Gurmat Maartand. On top of that he wrote steek on Chandi Di Vaar so you need to defend why you are right and why bhoomika which could’ve been edited or written later is correct in the face of five sources written by Bhai Sahib and published during his lifetime? Otherwise, simply state your reasons and not hid behind anyone’s name, Once again, you are ignoring what he wrote in the pages I linked. What I said was he didn’t support all of Dasam Granth I will make it clear again. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha didn’t support all of Dasam Granth. Reason why I posted his links was because I know you like to bring in Nabha’s writing about Bhagautee to prove that he believed in Bhagautee so I also brought in facts he wrote about Mahakaal and Charitropahyan. Why are you getting angry now? You don’t debate in rational manner at all. You also got mad at Dal Singh when you couldn’t prove your point on Sikhsangat.com. You also run to mods to get people banned so this isn’t something new from you. I am not hiding behind anyone’s name. What I am doing is stopping you from hiding behind names of Kahan Singh Nabha and Prof. Sahib Singh because if you want to use their writings to prove your point, their writings can also be used again Caritropakhyan and Mahakaal. They were great scholars and did not write anything without studying it properly. It is simply foolish to discredit them without any shred of evidence. You (kal da shokra) do not know better than these scholars. He did not write a steek of Chaupai Sahib but doesn’t mean he did not believe in it. Prof. Sahib Singh declared Chaupai Sahib Bani of Guru Sahib and I provided you with the quote. Here it is again: "ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ, ਕਿ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਨੀ ਯਾਦ ਹੋਣ, ਜਿਹੜੀਆਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਪੜ੍ਹੀਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਭੀ ਤਿੰਨ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਹਨ-ਜਾਪੁ, ਸਵੈਯੇ ਤੇ ਚੌਪਈ। ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਸੁਤੇ ਹੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਨੀ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਉਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਆਮ ਸੀ, ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਬਾਣੀਆ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਸਨ”। Do you know how many chaupais there are in Dasam Granth? Kabiobaach Chaupai in Chariter 405 isn’t the only one. There are many others. There is one at the beginning of Akaal (Mahakaal) Ustat. He believed in that one and if you don’t believe me, ask any missionary that is alive from his time. He believed in Bachittar Natak as well but we can discuss it later in a different topic. Okay. MOD NOTE: While i understand you are replying back, we cannot continue to have this debate spill all over the forum. It is frustrating for members, reduces readability, and brings down overall forum quality. I have PM'd you your post so you can use that material. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 .What I am doing is stopping you from hiding behind names of Kahan Singh Nabha and Prof. Sahib Singh because if you want to use their writings to prove your point, their writings can also be used again Caritropakhyan and Mahakaal. Fauji, Stop talking nonsense. It is well known fact that none of the above mentioned names ever doubted Dasam granth. Read below the comments by Kahan singh ji Nabha ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ " - ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਭਾ E-mail Print PDF ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ (ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਭਾ) ਹਿੰਦੂ: ਆਪ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਪੂਜਨ ਦਾ ਗੁਰਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਨਿਸ਼ਿਧ ਆਖਦੇ ਹੋ ਪਰ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੲਖੁਦ ਦੇਵੀ ਪੂਜੀ ਜੈ, ਜੇਹਾ ਕਿ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਦੇ ਇਸ ਬਚਨ ਤੋਂ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ॥ (ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਅਧਿਆ 6) ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਹੁਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਰ ੳਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਵਿਚ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਪਾਠ ਦਾ ਮਹਾਤਮ ਦਸਿਆ ਹੈ, ਯਥਾ: ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿੱਤ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਨਹੈ ਨਰ, ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ॥ (ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਪਾ.10) ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ॥(ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ.10) ਸਿੱਖ: ਪਿਆਰੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਭਾਈ! ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਲਿੰਗ ਰੂਪ ਵਰਨਣ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਯਥਾ ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ॥ਨਮੋ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ॥52॥ ਇਸ ਥਾਂ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਪਦ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਅਕਾਲ ਤੋਂ ਭਿਨ ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੀ ੳਪਾਸਨਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਤਦ ਅਗੇ “ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥“ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ “ਤ੍ਰੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ॥“ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਅਰ “ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ” ਦੀ ਥਾਂ “ਅਕਾਲ ਅਰ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਬਾਚ” ਹੁੰਦਾ। ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨਿਰਸੰਦੇਹ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਅਸੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਬਲ ਪੰਜ ਯੁਕਤੀਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇ ਪੂਜਨ ਦਾ ਖੰਡਨ ਦਿਖਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ। (ੳ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੁਕਮ ਦਿਤਾ ਹੈ: ਬਿਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਮਾਨੋ॥ (ਸ਼ਬਸ ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ ਪਾ.10) ਅਰਥਾਤ ਕਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਵਸਤੂ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਪੂਜੋ, ਕਰਤਾਰ (ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ) ਦੀ ਉਪਾਸਨਾ ਕਰੋ। ਔਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਹੈ: ਤੈਂ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜ ਕੇ ਦੈਂਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ॥...॥2॥(ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ.10) ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੋਰ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਰਚੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। ਕੀ ਇਹ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਕੁਛ ਦੇਣ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਅਮਲ ਕੁਛ ਹੋਰ ਕਰਨ? ਅਰਥਾਤ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਪੂਜਣਾ ਦੱਸਣ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਕਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਵਸਤੂ ਦੇ ਉਪਾਸਕ ਬਣਨ? (ਅ) ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਗਿਤਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ: ਤੁਮਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੋਈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਰ ਚਾਹੋਂ ਸੋ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਪਾਊਂ ॥(ਚੌਪਈ ਪਾ. 10) ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥(ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ ਪਾ.10) ਭਜੋ ਸੋ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਿਮਯੰ ॥ ਨ ਧਯਾਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥.... ॥38॥(ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਅਧਿਆ 6) ਕੀ ਐਸਾ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਪਣੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਗਿਆ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਦੇਵੀ ਪੂਜਨ ਕਰਨ? (ੲ) ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕਰਤਾ ਜਿਸ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਆਪਣੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਦੇ ਆਦ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਪੂਜ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਮੰਗਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਬਲਕਿ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਲੋਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਰਣ ਦੇਖ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਇਸ਼ਟ ਸਮਝ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ: ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥ ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਿ ਫਤਹ॥ ਏਹੀ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਰਣ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਫੇਰ ਕਿਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਖਿਆਲ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਿ ਦਸਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੇਵੀ ਭਗਤ ਸਨ? (ਸ) ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਦਸ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਇਕ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਨੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ, ਜੋ ਆਸ਼ਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਦ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਬਚਨ ਹਨ. ਭਰਮੇ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥(ਗਉੜੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਮ.5, ਪੰਨਾ 258) ਦੇਵੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਮਰਮ ॥(ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮ.5, ਪੰਨਾ 894) ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਨਾਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੇ ॥3॥ ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥ (ਗੋਂਡ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ, ਪੰਨਾ 874) ਔਰ ਫਿਰ ਆਪ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖਦੇ ਹਨ. ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ॥....॥5॥ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਦੇਵੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾ ਦੀ ਦਾਸੀ ਹੈ, ਔਰ ਇਸ ਪਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ ਕਿ. ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਦਾਸੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧ ਅਗਿਆਨਾ॥(ਭੈਰਉ ਮ.5, ਪੰਨਾ 1138) ਔਰ ਜਿਸ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਦੀ ਝਾੜੂ ਬਰਦਾਰ ਮੰਨਿਆ, ਤਦ ਕਿਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਸੀ ਗੁਰਗਦੀ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਆਪਣੇ ਬਜ਼ੁਰਗਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਸ਼ੇ ਤੋਂ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਔਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਲੇਖ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੀ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਰਦੇ? (ਹ) ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਤੋਂ ਅੰਮਿ੍ਤ ਛਕਿਆ ਔਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ, ਉਹ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ‘ਗਿਆਨ ਰਤਨਾਵਲੀ’ ਦੇ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਰਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ. “ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ, ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਅਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰਖਿਆ ਹੈ।“ ਜੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਇਸ਼ਟ ਦੇਵੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ, ਤਾਂ ਕੀ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਪੂਜਯ ਦੇਵੀ ਬਾਬਤ ਐਸਾ ਲਿਖ ਸਕਦੇ ਸਨ? ਔਰ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਜੀ! ਆਪ ਨੇ ਜੋ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇ ਮਹਾਤਮ ਬਾਬਤ ਆਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਉਹ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ, ਉਹ ਮਾਰਕੰਡੇ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਵਿਚੋਂ ‘ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ’ ਦਾ ਤਰਜਮਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇਹਾ ਕਿ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਿਰਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਿੱਧ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ. ਸਤ ਸੈ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਯਹਿ ਪੂਰੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ॥...॥232॥ ਬਲਕਿ ਅਸਲੀ ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਵਿਚ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਿਸਥਾਰ ਨਾਲ ਮਹਾਤਮ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ ਇਹ ਹੈ: “ਦੇਵੀ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਇਸ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਔਰ ਨਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਭ ਦੁਖ, ਪਾਪ, ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣ ਚੋਰ, ਰਾਜਾ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਔਰ ਅਗਨੀ, ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭਨਾ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਯੁੱਧ ਵਿਚ ਪੁਰਸ਼ਾਰਥ ਵਧਦਾ ਹੈ, ਵੈਰੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਮੁਕਤੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ, ਕੁਲ ਦਾ ਵਾਧਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗ੍ਰਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੀੜਾ ਸ਼ੇਰ, ਜੰਗਲੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਿਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ਪਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਰਾਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਜੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇ, ਅਥਵਾ ਕੈਦ ਹੋਵੇ, ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੂਫਾਨ ਆ ਜਾਵੇ, ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।“ (ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ) (ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ ਅ. 12 ਸਲੋਕ 1-29) ਇਸੇ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ ਹੈ: ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੈ ਨਰ....॥4॥(ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ 232 ਪਾ.10) ਔਰ: ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ....॥55॥(ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ.10) ਮਹਾਕਾਲ - (ਸੰਗਯਾ) (1) ਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਯਮ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ. ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ।ਪਾਰਭ੍ਰਹਮ।''ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ'' (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ). (2) ਉਹ ਲੰਮਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦੇ।(3) ਸਮੇਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਹਰਤਾ ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ।...''ਗਯਾਨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗਯਾਤਾ ਮਹਾ ਬੁੱਧਿਤਾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ, ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾ ਕਾਲ ਹੌਂ'' (ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤ) ('ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼' ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਭਾ) Do you know how many chaupais there are in Dasam Granth? Kabiobaach Chaupai in Chariter 405 isn’t the only one. There are many others. There is one at the beginning of Akaal (Mahakaal) Ustat. He believed in that one and if you don’t believe me, ask any missionary that is alive from his time. Everybody knows what chaupai sahib was read when khalsa was created in 1699. There are separate records as bhat vahis that detail the banis read by guru sahib in 1699. There was an article on this by Dr harnam singh Shan in The sikh review. Then there are contemporary sikh literature that detail this event. parchian sewa das written in 1708 detail what guru ji said when he was leaving this mortal word. He said to sikhs " I am going to mahakal" Which moral did Hari Singh Randhawa pick out when he ran away from stage without debating? Don’t tell me you haven’t seen those pics. The above is a lie. hari singh randhawe wale made to look your mentor Gurcharan jeonwala like a foll in the famous video Gurmat tat nirnay. Have you seen this? Gurcharan jeonwala was looking like a kid who ahd no knowledge of gurmat. If you want to see i can post that video here. Let me tell you what happened at new york. There was to be a debate at richmond hill gurudwara between Darshan ragi and Hari singh randhawewale. When darshan singh statrted speaking he was shouted down by sangat as a traitor of Akal takhat. he was not allowed to speak. same sangat told Hari singh ji not to have any debate with a traitor on Dasam granth. You are the real besharam for saying Guru Ji wrote stories describing sexual activity on bed after consuming cannabis and liqor. On top of that, you and your luchaa gang try to justify these stories on name of morals. I am not the one who has lust or sex on my mind. It is Poets; Shyam, Raam and Kaal. Tell me what was the need to describe how many hours someone had sex for or how many kisses someone took or how they positioned their body? If someone writes stories to educate, they make little mention so the story doesn’t turn into sexual story. These stories make people fall into the gutter instead of taking them out. Are you willing to come out on radio and translate chariters there? If yes, we can set up talk on Sher E Punjab radio. If you can’t translate them there, then you know you are maha basmadh for saying Guru Ji wrote something which you don’t’ have balls to translate on radio. Don’t say the word balls is profane or nasty because your chariter writer uses the phrase ‘taa ko beeraj apaar” to describe bravery meaning he has lots of semen. Who is kanjar besharam now? Me or dasam granth along with its poets Shyam, Raam, Kaal and their supporters? This is what happens when people without moral ethics stoop to a gutter level. Names Ram and shyam are pen names of guru ji. Read Chaubis avtar and you will know what is belief system of poet shyam. That is no different than what sikhism preaches. The problem with these missionary dummies that they know only some names by heart but when pressed for details they run away. Fauji only knows that shyam is written as writer in dasam Granth but he does not know what shyam is writing? He also does not know that name Gobind is also written in dasam granth. What is your definition of grown up? Someone who reads and promotes stories promoting bajjar kurehits? If yes, then I don’t need to be that type of grown up. As for debating online, I got into it somehow. Now, I am trying to get out of it. Lets have a proper debate, show me where Bhagautee is used for God in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if not, why wasn’t this word capable of being used for God in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There are 1430 pages of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If no bhagat, Guru, Sikh or Bhatt used this word for God then who is poet Shyam to make it God? However, poet shyam didn’t consider it God at all. Poet Shyam says: Kaal Tuhee Kaali Tuhee, Tuhee Tegh Tarvaar in sastarnaam maala in the Bhagautee Ji kee ustat section at the beginning. How is it God then? Show me where God is called Kaali in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thank you very much. Don’t make up your own logics and aarths, please use Guru Granth Sahib Ji’s quotes. Title of the writing is Vaar Sri Bhagautee Jee Kee which is the new title of the writing replacing the old title which was Vaar Sri Durgaa Jee Kee. What does that mean? Bhagautee = Durgaa. Then the writer says Tai Hee Durgaa Saaj Kai and you think he is referring to God. However, this is not true. Just like Durgaa created Kaali in Chandi Di vaar, same way Bhagautee created Durgaa but they are all the same. If you don’t get what I meant, read Dasam Granth carefully from head to toe. Ignorance is a bliss. Read below The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh E-mail Print PDF Patshahi10.Org is pleased to present this important piece of work on the history of Sri Dasam Granth by Dr. Trilochan Singh, an authoritative exponent of Sikh history, theology, philosophy and culture. This work, in four parts, was published in The Sikh Review in 1955. And up till now this remains a benchmark work on the history and compilation of Sri Dasam Granth - Admin The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) Dr. Trilochan Singh Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a towering Himalaya of light from whose teeming caverns there flowed a mighty river of songs in whose placid depths he set the reflected image of all the tragedy and bliss of life. His imagination was a seraph, which sounded all depths and measured all heights. It touched the intangible, it saw the invisible, it heard the inaudible and it gave body and shape to the inconceivable. It gathered gems from all mines, gold from all sands, pearls from all seas and songs from every battle of dharma. Guru Gobind Singh bequeathed to mankind a literary, historical and philosophic estate which time cannot destroy. He breathed into the nostrils of the heavenly Muse the breath of a new immortality. He sang of his God and his soul. He sang of creation and the rise and fall of civilization. He sang of the wars of dharma, of the heroes of the glorious past of India and of the figurative gods and goddesses of mythology. He sang of the lovers and martyrs of truth. The fever of the age, the misery of the people, the degradation of the country and its culture, the mute appeals of the oppressed became the problems of his life which he solved with the pen, the sword, the mind and his godlike spirit. Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a resistless flood which deluged everything that came into contact with it with glory, strength and spiritual glow. He desired that his Sikhs should develop all sides of their personality. He himself developed on all sides the exhuberance of his powers without losing himself in their multiplicity. MISUNDERSTOOD AND MISINTERPRETTED GENIUS It is, however, to be regretted that writers on Guru Gobind Singh have been led away by their just admiration for one aspect of his life to an unjust and even ignorant depreciation of various other equally important aspects of his life. It becomes impossible for some devout Sikhs to understand that the Guru who was the creator of the Khalsa and who in many fundamental ways parted radically from Hinduism could write such secular writings as life stories of the avtars of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva such as his Triya Charitar and Chandi Charitar. It becomes equally difficult for non-Sikh writers to understand that a Guru who has written glowing accounts of Chandi, Lord Krishna, Buddha and the great ascetics Dattatreya and Paras Nath was not a worshipper or a devotee of any of these. While he had a profound respect for these personalities who were gifted with special, divine qualities, he condemned the worship of these heroes and sages of our country as deities and godheads. There is another class of writers who do not understand Guru Gobind Singh's use of the sword of dharma and the great social and spiritual significance he attached to it. His autobiography explains the circumstances under which he had to use the sword in actual battles. When hordes of aggressors, generally numbering more than ten times his men, attacked his home and hearth without rhyme or reason, he had no other way out but to resort to the sword Extremist non-violence at such juncture had kept India in slavery century after century.[1] Another negative argument, though without much grounds, is that since Guru Gobind Singh was always preoccupied with battles and conflicts with the rulers, how was it that he had so much time to write such monumental works. Such people should know that out of five of a Sikh's morning prayers three compositions are by Guru Gobind Singh. Such is the importance he attached to his poetic works. Guru Gobind Singh was far more conscious of being a poet than being a warrior, or a prophet. The title of the prayer composed by him reads: Kabio ach Benti Chaupai, which means, The Prayer of the Poet in Chaupai Metre. In his autobiography, Apni Katha, the chapter describing his birth in the first person is entitled Ath Kabi Janam Kathnan. No ruler in Indian history had as many as 50 poets and innumerable additional writers whose patronage was coveted by emperors like Aurangzeb. If Guru Gobind Singh found time to examine the works of 52 poets he could easily find time to write profusely. He rewarded two poets with 60,000 mohars each for translating some cantos of the Mahabharata into Hindi and Panjabi. He never gave even half this much reward to any of his warriors. When the war clouds loomed heavily over Anandpur he asked those poets who could not handle the sword to leave. On their departure they were profusely garlanded, taken in procession on elephants, given rich gifts and presents. Above all they were given a salute of guns. According to a poet, the neighbouring rajas on hearing the salute were terror stricken and thought that Guru Gobind Singh was preparing an attack with unprecedented might. While education was compulsory, military training was optional. Yet in that atmosphere the inspiration to become a poet was so great that labourers working in the stables took part in poetry contests. The military training was entrusted to some of the greatest military geniuses of the time. Among them were Guru Gobind Singh's maternal uncle Kirpal Chand, who was also the Guru's teacher from childhood, and five sons of Bibi Viro (daughter of Guru Har Gobind) named Sango Shah, Jit Mal, Gulab Chand, Ganga Ram and Mahri Chand. Each of these warriors was given a command of 500 to 800 soldiers. Sango Shah Avas the Commander-in-Chief in the battle of Bhangani; when he fell a martyr on the twelfth day of fighting, Guru Gobind Singh took the command in his own hands. The younger generation took arms so very eagerly that the poet Hir said, "A child siugh learns the use of the sword long before he learns to tie his turban." While all other misunderstandings will become clear in their proper places, one misunderstanding created by the self-styled puritans called the bhasurias must be cleared here. They tried to prove that most of the Dasm Granth was written by the poets Ram and Shyam, names which occur in one or two compositions in the Dasm Granth. There is more than sufficient internal and external evidence in every composition to show that all the writings in the Dasm Granth were the works of Guru Gobind Singh. As we discuss each composition we will explain the purpose of each work and also give internal proofs of its authenticity. The names Ram and Shyam are used in some places as pen names. Actually speaking, they were not pen names but poetic translations of Guruji's names. Guruji's name Gobind is an attributive name of God; so also are Ram and Shyam. In Sikh theology the three words govind, ram and syam mean the same thing as the following quotations from the Guru Granth prove: Siyam sundar taj nind kiun ai (Guru Arjan: Suhi) Siyam sundar taj an jo cahit jion, kusti tan jok (Surdas: Sarang) govind govind govind har gurni nidhan govind govind govind jap mukh ujla pardhan (Guru Bam Das: Var Kanra) ram ram kirtan gae ram ram ram sada sahae (Guru Arjan: Rag Gond) In all the above quotations from the Guru Granth the words ram, syam and govind mean the same thing and so also do they in the Dasm Granth where they stand for Guru Gobind Singh. That is why two or sometime all three of these names occur in the same composition.[2] This practice of writing a synonym for the proper noun in the Dasm Granth applies not only to his own name but to many other names also. In the Dasm Granth, Guru Gobind Singh writes Netra Trung for Naina Devi, Satdrav for Satluj, Dasmpur for Anandpur, Shah Sangram for Sango Shah, and Madra-desh for the Punjab. Even in our own times Bhai Sahib Vir Singh's maternal uncle Pandit Hazara Singh wrote his name Hazoor Hari while his father Dr. Charan Singh wrote his name Charan Hari. Sardar Dharma Anant Singh, in his book Plato and the True Enlightener of Soul, writes the name of Sant Attar Singh as Mrigindus Atrus. So Ram, Shyam and Govind are synonymous names of Guru Gobind Singh. sr Almost all these works were written by Guru Gobind Singh between the ages of 16 and 35. In the Dasm Granth purely religious and philosophic compositions have 878 verses. But the introductions and the epilogues to all the secular verses are important religious compositions and number about 500. So the philosophic verses number nearly 1,378. Akal Ustat and Gyan Prabodh were more than twice what we find in the Dasm Granth. Had they survived, the religious poems in the Dasm Granth would have been twice the number we have now. It is not out of place to conclude that Guru Gobind Singh's contribution to religious literature far exceeds any other Guru's contribution to the Guru Granth. Contributions by the other Gurus and by Kabir to the Guru Granth are: Guru Nanak, 974 verses; Guru Angad, 62; Guru Amar Das, 907; Guru Ram Das, 697; Guru Arjan, 2,218; Guru Tegh Bahadur, 116; and Kabir, 541 verses. All the works were compiled by Guru Gobind Singh, but unfortunately almost all were lost in the sack of Anandpur and the battle of Chamkaur in 1704. The last four years of the Guru's life were spent in compiling the final version of Guru Granth Sahib and in making journeys east and south. A few months before his death the Guru sent his wife and Bhai Mani Singh to take care of the Sikhs in Delhi and Punjab. The divine mother was to stay at Delhi and Bhai Mani Singh was to tour Punjab. After the passing away of Guru Gobind Singh the Punjab was in a very unsettled condition. Around 1714 Mata Sundri asked Bhai Mani Singh to take the religious leadership of the Sikh Panth in his own hands with Amritsar as his headquarters. He was also instructed to compile the works of Guru Gobind Singh into a collected volume. The following letter from Bhai Mani Singh written in April 1714 shows the appalling conditions of the time and the missionary zeal of the great saint-scholar. In the light of this letter the statement of the eminent historian Gyani Gyan Singh that Bhai Mani Singh was living with barely five or six Sikhs at Amritsar is not unbelievable. Bhai Mani Singh managed to live during these aweful times because of his profound influence on both the Muslims and Hindus; bhai-mani-singh-letter (Translation of the letter; the photostat of the original given opposite page 57.) The One prevaileth everywhere. May the Immortal be our saviour. Most revered divine mother, Mani Singh makes obeisance at thy feet. News further is that on coming here my body has been suffering from acute wind-ailment and my health has been deteriorating. I meditated on the songs of healing thrice. But there has been no slackness in the service of the Golden Temple. The Khalsa has lost its hold in the Punjab and the Sikhs are retreating to the forests and mountains. The whole of the Punjab is under the sway of the despots. Even in the villages the life of the young men and women is not safe. They are hunted and killed mercilessly. The enemies of the Guru have joined hands with them. The handaliyas (followers of an impostor guru) are spying on the Sikhs and are betraying them to the enemies.Almost everyone has left Amritsar. The clerks and accountants have fled. So far the Almighty has protected me. 1 cannot say what may happen tomorrow. The Master's words will come to pass. Binod Singh's grandson has passed away. Among the books I sent there is a volume of 303 Triya Charitar Upakhyan written by the master. Please give that volume to Sihan Singh who lives in the interior of the city. So far I have not been able to trace Shastra Nam Mala Puran. I have found the first part of Krishna Avtar but not the second part. If I get it I will send it. There is a rumour here that Banda has made good his escape. May the Lord protect him. Guru Angad's family at Khadur has sent five tolas of old for your adopted son's bride.[3] Please recover seventeen rupees from Jhanda Singh. I gave him five rupees to meet the expenses of the journey. He has some bad habits and he will squander the money. The accountants have not as yet given me the accounts, otherwise I would have sent a hundi from the big city (Lahore). If my health improves I shall come some time in October or November. Baisakh 22. Sd/ Mani Singh Please reply in the bamboo stick. The Romanized copy of Bhai Mani Singh's letter to Mata Sundri ji ih onkar akal sahae puj mata ji de carnan par mani singh ki dandaut bandna. Bahoro samacar vacna ke idhar aon par sada sarir vayu ka adhik vikari hoe gaea hai-suast nahi hoea, tap ki kala do bar suni. par mandar ki seva men koi alak nahi. des vic khalse da bal chut gaea hai. sihgh parbatan babanan vic jae base hain. malechon ki des men dohi hai. basti men balak juva istri salamat nahi. much much kar marde hain. guru darohi bi unan de sang mil gae hain. handalie mil kar mukbari karde hain. sabi cak admin cut gae hain. mutsadi bhag gae hain. sade par abi to akal ki racha hai. kal ki khabar nahi. sahiban de hukam atal hain. binod singh de putrele da hukam sat hoe gaea hai. pothian jo jhanda singh hath bheji thi unan vic sahiban de 303 caritar upkhiyan di pothi jo hai so sihan sihgh nun mahal vic dena ji. Nam mala ki pothi di khabar abi mili nahi. karisnavtar purbaradh to mila utraradh nahi. je mila asi bhej devange. des vic goga hai ke banda bandhan mukat hoe bhag gaea hai. sahib bahudi karan ge. tola par sona sahibjade ki gharni ke abhukhan lai guru kiaa khandur se bheja hai 17 rajatpan bi jhanda singh se bhar panen. 5 rajatpan ise tosa dia is nun badraka bi hai. is se uth janven ge. mutsadion ne hisab nahi dia jo dende tan bade sahir se hundi kardi bhejde. asade sarir di rachia rahi tan kuar de mahine avange. mili vaisakh 22. daskhat manisingh guru cak bunga. juab pori main The letter reveals the following facts: 1. Such secular works as Krishna Avtar, Triya Charitar and Shastar Nam Mala Puran were written by Guru Gobind Singh and not by any other poet. 2. The Sikh historians are mistaken when they believe that Bhai Mani Singh took charge of the Golden Temple in 1722. This letter, written five months after Baba Banda's arrest and two months before his execution, shows that Bhai Mani Singh was there much earlier, probably in 1713 or 1714. 3. Finding the Akal Ustat incomplete, Mr. Macauliffe said that "there is an obvious defect in the arrangement of the composition." There is, as a matter of fact, no defect. Mr. Macauliffe did not know the works were collected after strenuous efforts and more than what is there was not available until then. Bhai Mani Singh completed the compilation in 1734, four years before he himself became a victim of the Moghul tyranny and his body was cut joint by joint. Some of the prominent Sikhs such as Baba Binod Singh (mentioned in the letter and probably staying at that time with Bhai Mani Singh), Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Sukha Singh prepared their own copies from the compiled copy. I have not seen the copies prepared by Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Bhai Mani Singh but if a search is made I think they can still be found. I have seen the copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh which contains 28 pages written in Guru Gobind Singh's own hand. Binod Singh's descendents presented this copy of the Dasm Granth to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's durbar and they received Rs. 125/- per month as a gift for it. It then came to the Patiala durbar and until 1947 the descendents of Baba Binod Singh were getting Rs. 25/- per month. Baba Binod Singh was a direct descendent of Baba Dasu, son of Guru Angad. Baba Binod Singh was also one of the five apostles under whose guidance Banda Bahadur was supposed to work at the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. So a copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh is an authentic and direct copy of the originally compiled version by Bhai Mani Singh. This Dasm Granth is at present in the Moti Bagh Palace, Patiala, and I had an opportunity to study it in detail some time ago. Six years after the compilation of he book and two years after the death of Bhai Mani Singh a dispute arose among the scholars as to whether such philosophic writings as the Jap and Akal Ustat should remain side by side with secular writings or whether they should be kept in separate volumes. Such scholars maintained that it was not proper to discuss writings like Triya Charitar in the gurdvaras. No one, of course, doubted that the works were those of Guru Gobind Singh. The matter was decided in a strange way [4] Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh who were there said that if they succeeded in killing Massa Ranghar who was occupying Amritsar and using the Golden Temple as a pleasure house the Dasm Granth should remain intact. If, however, they died in the attempt, the books of the Dasm Granth should be separated. .Fortune most strangely favoured keeping the Dasm Granth in one volume. According to Macauliffe the name of Dasm Granth was given to the collection much later. This is not correct. The title of Binod Singh's collections and of other older recensions is Dasm Patshah ka Granth, which means the same thing as Dasm Granth, Work of the Tenth Guru. In 1896 leaders of the Singh Sabha movement found that copies of the Dasm Granth began to differ in the spelling of words. As the copyists knew only Panjabi and not Hindi and Persian they made many mistakes in writing these languages. So a committee of scholars was appointed which prepared an edition to be printed for the first time. They collected some 32 old texts of the Dasm Granth, but they unfortunately left the proof reading to the printers Messrs, Gulab Singh & Sons who in printing have made countless errors which even distort the meaning of the original. Either the scholars who prepared this or the publishers have made two grievous errors: 1. They have written on the title page "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Dasm Patshahi" which seems to be a distortion of Dasm Patshahi ka Granth which is found on most of the old recensions. This Granth was not installed as a guru so it is wrong to call it Guru Granth. 2. The first verse of the 33 swayas: jagat jot japai nis basar, has been omitted. What is to be noted is that all the eminent scholars of the Singh Sabha movement accepted the whole of the Dasm Granth as the work of Guru Gobind Singh. In 1915 there arose an assumedly puritan school of thought at Bhasaur under Babu Teja Singh, a retired overseer, a good organizer but with a hopelessly shallow intellect. He and a few of his hired gyanis not only started a campaign against Dasm Granth but even compiled a Guru Granth of their own excluding the works of Kabir and other bhagtas. He even changed the mass prayer of the Sikhs. As a reformist, in the beginning he gathered some support but when he stooped to flagrant abuse of history and facts he was condemned by a proclamation from the Akal Takht and his activities were declared Singh's poets. The genius of one most un-Sikh-like. This school has died an inevitable visible death and no Sikh scholar of importance believes that any part of Dasm Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh's poets. The genius of one mind, the art style of one poet is visible in the whole of Dasm Granth. That genius and style is of Guru Gobind Singh and no other. [1]. Muhsin Fani, Guru Har Gobind's contemporary, declared that "both Guru Har Gobind and Guru Gobind Singh did not use the sword out of anger on any occasion. The wars they fought were not communal; they were fought against the Hindu rajas and the Moghul armies. In his armies there were Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs." Even Mahatma Gandhi, writing in his article, The Doctrine of the Sword, said: "I do believe that when there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should in a cowardly manner remain a helpless victim to her own dishonour." [2]. In the Guru Granth the name Gobind is written both as Govind and Gobind. But in Guru Gobind Singh's writings it always occurs with " b " as Gobind. Guru Gobind Singh spent most of his life in the Doaba area of the Punjab where the words with "v" are pronounced " b . " Guru Gobind Singh used it very often in his writings. He writes bade bade for vade vade; maru bajia for maru vajia; abigat for avigat; Bishnu for Vishnu; barn for varn, and innumerable other cases. So Guruji preferred to write his name as Gobind and not as Govind. [3]. Mata Sundri saw a young boy who in features resembled her eldest son Ajit Singh so much that she adopted him much against the wishes and advice of Bhai Mani Singh and desired that all relatives and Sikhs should treat him as her son. She even arranged his marriage as poor compensation for her deeply cherished desire to have seen the marriage of Ajit Singh, who fell a martyr in the battle of Chamkaur. This adopted son proved so hopeless that he had to be publicly disowned. He even discarded the Sikh faith under the threats of the Muslim rulers. Latter he was involved in a crime and as punishment was tied to the tail of an elephant and met a terrible death. [4]. To belittle the martyrdom of Bhai Mani Singh some people invented the story that he was cursed by the Sikhs for dividing the Guru Granth into parts authorwipe. It was Bhai Mani Singh who wrote the final version of Guru Granth Sahib as dictated by Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Mani Singh would never have dared to undo it. The fact that Bhai Mani Singh was in favour of having even Dasm Granth in one volume disproves this theory to be continued.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Words can mean different things to an extent. Tha vaar 41 has many thing to talk about. We will discuss that some other time. I got other things to do as well. I rely on Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Bhagautee is feminine. God is Khasam, Mittar, Swami, Dosat, Akaal Purakh, Aad Purakh, Nirankaar, etc. Not Khasaman, Mitaree, Swaman, Dostan, Naar, Akaal Naar, Aad Naar, Nirankaran, etc. so Bhagautee can never mean Akaal Purakh no matter how you slice it. It can mean sword but Sikhs aren't worshippers of mindless weapons. Worship of weapons is same as worhip of horses, cows, idols, moortees, etc. Sikh is worshipper of only Akaal Purakh. Fateh! It might be helpful to understand the place of the Markandaya Puran (from which Dasmesh Pita draws inspiration for Chandi bani) in the Hindu religious canon. This Purana marked a transition point in Hindu religious consciousness. Prior to the writing of Durga Saptashati, God was conceived in completely masculine terms, as the most powerful and important Vedic deities were male, and female deities were either unimportant or regarded solely as consorts to the male gods. Durga Saptashati was one of the first (and arguably one of the most important) texts that attempted to desribe divinity in feminine terms. In the purana, the feminine principle is regarded as independent of the male deities of the Vedas and as a supreme force. It, more than any other religious text, was responsible for diminishing the power of the patriarchal hierarchy in the India of the time and for elevating woman above her role of simply being an appendage to her man. As such, it's not too difficult to imagine why Guru Gobind Singh would have chosen to translate and rewrite this text. In doing so, Guru Gobind Singh added an additional dimension to the personality of God as recorded in the Guru Granth Sahib (in which God is described in masculine terms), and ensured that women would be treated like Kaurs in the coming Sikh Raj. Regards, K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 This is an interesting video where one of missionary Guru Gurcharan jeonwala is engaged in discussion with Hari singh randhawawale. http://www.sikhclips.com/view_video.php?vi...amp;category=mr 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Which one is gurcharan singh jeonwala? on the right or on the left? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Which one is gurcharan singh jeonwala? on the right or on the left? He's on the right wearing the black suit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 As such, it's not too difficult to imagine why Guru Gobind Singh would have chosen to translate and rewrite this text. In doing so, Guru Gobind Singh added an additional dimension to the personality of God as recorded in the Guru Granth Sahib (in which God is described in masculine terms), and ensured that women would be treated like Kaurs in the coming Sikh Raj. in Kibber Choers Singhs book from 1769 the two grants are mentioned as two siblings. Adi Granth being the brother(masculine) and Dasam Granth being the sister (feminine) .. Now when you say God is portrayed in masculine terms in Adi and feminine terms in Dasam it makes perfect sense why kibber singh made Dasam the sister and Adi the brother (for a long time i've wondered why Dasam was sister since it deals with masculine topics such as war etc, while Adi was the brother when it talks about "feminine" and soft topics such as pyar and longing after the beloved) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 That is Jeonwala! he was very quite towards the end of this debate with Sant Hari Singh! Khalsa Fauj, how come Gurcharan SIngh Jeonwala has nto taken his amrit as you have. Does he not believe in it or something as he seems to be particularly happy to put his points accross about Sikhism but will not became a part of the Khalsa fauj himself? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala isn't from any missionary college. He is just a panth daredee. Let me link his debate Gurcharan Singh had with Jathedar Iqbal Singh Patnaa http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Video/29 What happened in that debate? Which reference did Jeonwala use? Who does Iqbal Singh talk about? Inder Singh you like to lie a lot. If Hari Singh didn't want to debate with Prof. Darshan SIngh. WHy did he agree first? This link is below: http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Video/61 Inder Singh, why do you keep ignoring the pages I posted from Gurmat Maartud? Why do you have hatred for reality? Also, what about your name being in those being honored by RSS? Also, that debate with jeonwala Hari Singh had, Hari Singh rejected Akaal Takht maryada and said meat is wrong. Whole panth had been eating meat until 1900s when this sant babadom came on orders of British to defile Sikhi. Kaljug SIngh, I appreciate your thinking but GUrbani says: Pandit Mulla Jo Likh Deeaa Shaad Chlay Ham Kashoo Na Leeaa so we don't need stories from pandits or mullas. Dasam Granth is most stories from pandits and mullas. Why would Guru Gobind SIngh Ji write something which Gurbani already rejected? Makes no sense so Chandi Di Vaar isn't written by GUru Gobind SIngh Ji. It is work of poet Shyam. He used Punjabi in Tria Chariters also. He knew Punjabi. Inder Singh talked about the Duaba region. This is true that poet Shyam knew Punjabi. Poet Raam was from Ropas as per Chariters. These guys knew about Sikhs but these guys were vaam maargee. This is where the issue is. You also brought in Mani SIngh and the fake letter linked to him. MOD NOTE: PORTION DELETED FOR OFF-TOPIC. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED NUMEROUS TIMES. When the warning slider reaches all the way to the right you will be banned. Be careful about remaining on topic. Also, the so called Bhai Mani Singh book says we can shave beard if we are going to work at high positions. Do you agree with that? Isn't that a bajjar kurehit? Once again, read the links from Gurmat Maartund. Gurmat Maartund Bhoomikaa http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...a53&thumb=5 Mahakaal Bhung http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...tp0&thumb=5 Slander of Women http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...otf&thumb=5 Guru Gobind SIngh Ji would not have gone against Gurmat philosophy to use Raam, Shyam, Kaal etc. because the joats of Nanak use Nanak. Gobind Rai wasn't Guru until joat on Guru Nanak entered into him in 1675. Also you said everyone knows Chaupai was read in 1699; are you sure because historical sources say otherwise. (1) Rehatnama Bhai Daya Singh (Piara): A good Sikh partakes of ‘amrit’ of Sri Amritsar. First, he reads or recites complete Jap ji, from the beginning to the end and the Chaupai. Which Chaupai (quartet)? (There is no indication.) He reads five different sawaiyas: 1. Srawag 2.Dinan Ki Pritpal 3. Papp smooh Binasan 4. Sat sdaiv suda brat, and 5 five stanzas of Anand Sahib. He stirs the ‘amrit’ with a kirpan towards himself. Then one Singh places a kirpan beside him. (Note: Here there is no mention of Jaap Sahib and complete Anand Sahib. There is however mention of stirring ‘amrit’ with a Kirpan.) (2) Bhai Chaupa Singh (Tenth Gurus’s Hazuri Sikh): Then the perfect Guru Sahib started testing the Panth. On the seventh day of Sawan, 1756 Sambat, the consecrated drink was sought to be prepared. Guru Sahib said, "Chaupa Singh, bring water in a bowl." When water was brought, Guru Sahib commanded, "Hold the ‘Khanda’ (double edged sword) and stir the contents of the bowl." Then all the five started reading out ‘swaiyas’ each. Which five? Daya Singh…. Sahib Singh…. Himmat Singh…. Dharam Singh…. Mohkam Singh…?. When these five Singhs started reading out ‘swaiyas’, then Sahib Chand Diwan made a request, "True Sovereign, if ‘ptashas’ (sugar bubbles) are put in the bowl, it will be better." In the meanwhile, Mata Shakti, Mata Sahib kaur, assuming the form of the ‘devi’ (goddess) put sugar bubbles in the bowl. The perfect Guru Sahib took five palmfuls and put them on the eyes, and five palmfuls in the hair. Then he recited the following ‘swaiya’ from the ‘Chandi Charitar’: "Deh Shiva war mohey ehay Shubh karman te kabhon na taron. Na daron ar siyon jab jaye laron nishchay kar apni jeet karon. Ar Sikh hon apne hi mann ko eh lalach han gun ton ochron. Jab aav ki audh nidhan baney At hi run mein tab joojh maron. [O God of power, bless me, That nothing deters me from gracious deeds. And when fight I must, I fight for sure to win. That I am instructed in wisdom only by my higher mind, That I crave ever to utter thy praise. When comes the end of my life, I die fighting in the thick of a (righteous) war’} Guru Sahib administered ‘amrit’ to the five Singh with his own hands. Next day, more Sikhs requested the Master that they too be administered ‘amrit’. He said, ‘prepare ‘Karah Parshad’ and have it from the five Singhs after reading ‘swaiyas’. [Note: This ‘Maryada’ (practice) too does not accord with any current practice or any other practice.] (3) According to Guru Bilas Patshahi Daswin: [Author: Bhai Koer Singh, p-128] It is considered to have been written in 1808 sambat, i.e. 1751 A.D. about 43 years after the passing away of the Tenth Guru] ‘Sarita jal leen achhoot mangaye kay, Patar loh mein tan prabh beray. Parhtey su udass hai mantron ko, Prabh thadhey hai app bhaiye so saverey.’ (p-25) [Note: Here there is only a mention of reading ‘mantra’ (mool mantra)] (4) Bansawalinama: [Genealogical Tree] of the ten Guru Sahibaan written by Bhai Kesar Singh Chhiber (11826 Sambat). According to this writing: Guru Sahib said: ‘Get a bowl of water at once.’ When it was brought, Guru Sahib gave ‘karad’ (knife) to a Sikh and asked him to stir the water in the bowl. Then Guru Sahib asked him to read aloud Japu Ji Sahib and Anand (Tenth part). Here it is worth nothing that Chhiber has used the word ‘karad’ instead of Khanda and has mentioned the reading out of two ‘banis’ ‘Jap’ and ‘Anand’. [sikh Sanskar atey maryada-Chief Khalsa Diwan, p-63] (5) History of the Sikhs, written by Khushwant Rai: 1811 sambat, i.e. 1754 A.D. In the peperation of ‘amrit’ there is mention of reading aloud only five swaiyas. (p-63). (6) Pracheen Panth Parkash, written by Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu, edited by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, published in 1941 A.D. Var Bhagauti, first pauri (stanza) swaiya No. 32, Tribhangi Chhand-Khag Khand. [Note: Here there is mention of reading of reciting three different ‘banis’, which are different from those that are read these days.] (7) ‘Suraj Parkash’ written by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji: Banis read at the time of preparing ‘amrit’ are: Jap Ji, Swaiyas, five stanzas of Anand Sahib. [Note: Here is no mention of reading out Jaap Sahib and Chaupai. Only reading out five ‘pauris’ (stanzas) of Anand Sahib have been mentioned.] (8) Guru Panth Parkash: {Giani Gian Singh), edited by: Singh Sahib Giani Kirpal Singh, p-1573}: ‘Jap Ji Sahib-5pauris, Jaap Sahib-5 pauris, Das Sudh, Anand Sahib, and Chaupai. [Note: Here is mention of reading out five ‘pauris’ each of Jap Ji Sahib and Jaap Sahib and this too is not clear which ‘Chaupai’ should be read out-the one in the beginning of ‘Akal Ustat’ "Pranvo aad ek nirankara" or the 27-pad kabiyo vach Chaupai from 377 ti 404 Chaupadas of Charitar No. 405 of ‘Charitro Pakhiyan’?] (9) ‘Gurbilas Patshahi 10’: written by Bhai Sukha Singh of Patna Sahib: The author has mentioned the reading out of some ‘mantras’ while preparing ‘amrit’. He has not mentioned the reading out of any particular ‘bani’ or ‘banis’. (10) ‘Guru Sobha; Likhari, Kavi Senapati (Singh): Guru Gobind Singh’s poet Laureate Senapati (Singh) in his book ‘Guru Sobha’ has not described any method of administering the ‘pahul of Khanda’ (consecrated drink prepared with Khanda-two edged sword). He has only mentioned the ‘kurehats’ (breach of Sikh code of conduct) like mundan (tonsuring), smoking hookah and having relations with ‘minas’ or ‘masands’. (11) Sri Kalgidhar Chamatkar, written by Bhai Vir Singh: Bhai Vir Singh Ji writes the following on page 27-28: "At the place where yesterday Sikhi was put to test, today there is a throne around which the devotees are sitting. ‘Karah Parsad’ (sweet pudding) for 1100 is kept on white sheets. On the throne is sitting Guru Gobind Singh Ji apparelled in white. Before him lies a shining steel bowl containing water with a two-edged sword in it. In front of him are standing the five Sikhs of yesterday, the liberated ones, who had offered their heads. They too are clad in white. Guru Sahib spoke to them-the five-"‘Waheguru’ is the ‘gurmantra’ chant it with perfect concentration." While the ‘Five’ got busy in chanting ‘Waheguru’, Guru Sahib himself started stirring the ‘Khanda’ in the bowl and reciting ‘banis’. Standing before the ‘Five’ who had offered their heads, he made one of them recite the ‘mool mantra’ five times. Then he gave him five palmfuls of ‘amrit’ sprinkled it on his eyes and put five palmfuls in his hair. In this manner he administered ‘amrit’ to the ‘Five.’ { Note: Here there is no mention of the ‘banis’ that were read or recited. The Five beloved ones too had been chosen a day before. Next day, one of them was made to recite the ‘mool mantra’ five times] (Based on the article published in the Khalsa Samachar of 6-13 April 2000). History does not testify at all that the Tenth Guru, while preparing ‘amrit’ with ‘Khanda’ recited the five ‘banis’, which are recited now-a-days. Making such a claim is like making a ball of salt. In such a situation, what should be done? Our humble submission is that in the entire literature written before the Singh Sabha movement, there is no mention about the recitation of the five ‘banis’ which are recited these days while preparing ‘amrit’. It appears that before the Singh Sabha Movement there was no definite tradition regarding the recitation of ‘banis’ at the time of administering ‘amrit.’ It varied from group to group, and ‘dera’ to ‘dera’ (seminary). For details see Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi’s book on ‘Dasam Granth’ (page 36-37). Which of those guys was right? They are all well known personalities. You can't call them kala afganists or anti-Panthic or Gahhagas or whatever can you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 That is Jeonwala! he was very quite towards the end of this debate with Sant Hari Singh! Khalsa Fauj, how come Gurcharan SIngh Jeonwala has nto taken his amrit as you have. Does he not believe in it or something as he seems to be particularly happy to put his points accross about Sikhism but will not became a part of the Khalsa fauj himself? He doesn't agree with the recitation of Dasam Granth content when preparing Khanday Kee Pahul. Joginder Singh spokesman and others have given same reason. They say since Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Amrit must be prepared by reading banis from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I agree with him on this point and we demand Panthic ekatartaa be called to correct the shortcomings in the Panthic Rehat maryada so it can be preached without any controversies. Also, I feel that debating here is too time consuming. I haven't been able to get much done over the last few days other than post here. Like I said at the start, holding a live debate in public would be the best solution to solve this issue. Internet posts are just internet posts. Also, before trying to promote Dasam Granth, you guys need to decide about Poets SHyam, Raam and Kaal. It is very confusing when one says they are pen names of Guru Ji and other person says they are poets and someone else says they are rishi munis. Please make a separate thread and decide amongst yourselves on who these poet characters are. Then it would be much easier to hold debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Bhats were attendants in guru sahib's court and they wrote day to today account of Guru sahib's life's important events. They write about five banis that were read at the time of creation of khalsa and the same banis are being read till today. In Punjabi there is a saying "man harami hujtan dher." No amount of convincing with anti dasam granth brigade. They are gurnindaks and will never see to reason. www.sikhreview.org/march2001/chronicle.htm Creation of Khalsa as described by Bhatt Sarup Singh Kaushish in "Guru Kian Sakhian" [Part II]@ Harnam Singh Shan, D.Litt.* * Eminent scholar, former Prof. & Chair, Guru Nanak Studies, Punjab University, Chandigarh. [605, Sector 16 Chandigarh, 160015, Punjab] Parchian Sewa Das, dated 1708 A.D. is probably the earliest available narration, in prose, of some episodes from the life of Guru Gobind Singh. Its date of completion coincides with the date of the passing away of Guru Sahib and it seems to have been written at Nander itself. Thirty- eight of the fifty episodes (Nos. 13 to 50) contained in the work pertain to Guru Gobind Singh, but none of them describes the event as such in any form. There is, however, a passing but significant reference to it in the very first episode which after giving "a brief sample" of the Zafarnamah1 is concluded as follows: "The letter contained the warning, ‘Beware, the Khalsa is born, the real idol-breaker Khalsa. Khalsa will punish you. You will not be spared." "The name of the messenger who took this letter was Bhai Daya Singh. When Aurangzeb read this line of the letter, he looked at Bhai Daya Singh and asked, ‘Has the Khalsa taken birth’? ‘Yes, Sir, the Khalsa has appeared,’ replied Bhai Daya Singh. ‘It should not have appeared15. That is a novel nectar to be prepared with the use of a double at this time. I see doom ahead.’ Saying this, Aurangzeb’s face turned pale, and he died." 19 Its episode No. 47 refers to a violation of Rehat, the Code of Socio-religious Conduct and discipline prescribed for the Khalsa, at Dadu Dwara - Guru’s salutation, Khalsa’s notice, Guru’s explanation and acceptance of the tankhah20 awarded by the Khalsa.21 The abolition of the Masand System and the removal of all masands is intrinsically linked with the creation of the Khalsa, that being its primary connotation. It was one of the first injunctions of the Guru and the Sikhs were told not to have any truck with them. This is corroborated even by the extant Hukamnamas22 sant by Guru Gobind Singh to various Sikh Sangats - the first of them being the one dated 12 March 1699 (that is, 19 days earlier than the event) addressed to the Sangat of Machhiwara23 (district Ludhiana). Chander Sen Sainapat, an eminent scholarly poet of the Guru’s Court, also confirms it by stating in his Sri Gur Sobha (completed in 1711) that by abrogating their institution, doing away with their mediacy and making all Sikhs his own Khalsa, the Guru affiliated and related the entire Sikh community directly with himself. Karan har Kartar hukum karte kiya kar masand sabh dur, khalsa kar liya24 He actually transformed it into his Khalsa, so said Bhai Gurdas Singh, another contemporary, most probably an eye-witness to the event: Gur-Sangat kini Khalsa Manmukhi duhela25 It was, therefore, quite right and appropriate on the part of Sarup Singh Kaushish to begin his account of that historic event with the condemnation, dismissal and summary punishment of the depraved masands. Immediately after mentioning the above command of Guru Gobind Singh, Kaushish begins his narration of the event telling as under the date of its occurrence: Charhde saal satrah seh pachawan baisakhi26 This is what we find neither in the Parchian of Sewa Das nor in Sri Gur Sobha of Sainapat. This is what is very wrongly given by Koer Singh in his Gurbilas Patshahi 10, completed in 1751 and so far the earliest available account of the same, commencing his narration in the relevant canto no. 9, as follows: Yah bidhi panth banai hai27 He has mentioned it twice and both times 1746 BK.,28 corresponding to 1689 A.D., instead of 1699 A.D. universally accepted till now. Sainapat began the writing of his work, Sri Gur Sobha, in 1701 - two years or so after the creation of the Khalsa in 1699. He completed it in 1711, within three years of the demise of Guru Gobind Singh. Having been an eminent poet of his court, both at Paonta Sahib and Anandpur Sahib, he would have been an eye-witness to all that happened on 30 March 1699 at Anandpur. But in spite of its being a contemporary historical significance and poetical excellence, it is quite silent over almost all those aspects and incidents of the event which have been noticed in the above narration of Guru Kian Sakhian and which are generally known to the people uptil now. He has referred, though, to the huge gathering on the occasion of Vaisakhi at Anandpur, without mentioning even its year, yet there is no explicit reference in it even to the thundering call for heads made by the Guru in that assemblage and what followed thereafter. He seems to have taken it for granted that unique and memorable event and the details associated with it were already known to his readers. Hence, he does not seem to have considered it necessary or useful to describe the same. Sainapat’s Sri Gur Sobha is followed by Koer Singh’s Gurbilas which is also a versified account of the life of Guru Gobind Singh, and is probably the first available work that covers in detail almost the entire span of his life, completed within 43 years of his passing away. As hinted above, it is also the so-far-first available work in which are recorded some details of the event that led to the creation of the Khalsa. But its narration falls short not only in telling us a wrong and misleading date of its occurrence but also in several other elements and aspects of the subject. Unlike that of Sainapat and Kaushish, Koer Singh’s account is doctrinally heterodox in its nature, content and presentation. It runs counter to the tenets, teachings and writings of Guru Gobind Singh. Quite contrary to the glaring facts of history, most of these are figments of Koer Singh’s poetic fancy, leading not only to heterodoxy but also to heresy. Hence, there is very little of historical, factual and, therefore, credible element in his account.29 According to Koer Singh, the first Piara, Bhai Daya Ram, belonged to Lahore, but Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, author of the Mehma Parkash (dated 1776), and Sarup Singh Kaushish have mentioned him as a resident of Sialkot or Shalkot, respectively. 30 He was a Sopat or Softi (not Sobti, as it is now pronounced) Khatri, according to all of them. The next work, in chronological order, is Bansavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka by Bhai Kesar Singh Chhibbar. He completed this poeticized work in 1769. There is no mention in it of the Sis-bhet episode nor of the very bold and spectacular method adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to select his Panj Piare (five Beloved ones).31 According to him, Guru Gobind Singh planned to create the Khalsa when the year 1750 Bk. (1693 A.D.) came to its end: Sambat satara sai pachas pura hoya31 The last such work, that is Mehma Parkash, dated 1776, by Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, seems to have followed Koer Singh’s Gurbilas in repeating the same heterodoxical element.32 Its account is not only insignificant but is also incredible to a very large extent. On the other side, Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushish who wrote the above account of that great event 14 years after Bhalla, 21 years after Chhibbar and 39 years after Koer Singh, had steered clear of all such flights of poetical imagination, Brahmanical influences and heretical overtones. He seems to have followed only the first-hand information he found recorded in the Bhatt Vahis of his ancestors who remained in attendance with Sri Guru Gobind Singh and happened to be eye-witness to most of the events associated with his court and camp till he passed away.33 Basing his account on such an authentic and reliable contemporary source, Kaushish related the first "baptismal" ceremony, held at Keshgarh Sahib on the Vaisakhi Day (30 March) of 1699, in the next Sakhi, bearing no. 59, as follows: That is, "now begins the anecdote regarding initiation with ambrosial baptism by the nectar of the double-edged broadsword." "Guru ji asked Diwan Dharam Chand to bring a stone mortar, a steel bowl and the double-edged broadsword. Obeying the command, Diwan ji brought in the same. "Placing the bowl on the stone mortar and putting in it the water of river Sutluj, Guru ji started the preparation of his ambrosial nectar. He began to stir the Khanda in it with his hand in front of the five Sikhs - Bhai Daya Ram and others. He recited at first Japji Sahib. "The revered mother asked Bhai Kirpa Ram, ‘What Guru ji is doing?’ He said, ‘Revered mother’, Guru ji is preparing ambrosial nectar of the double-edged broadsword for administering it to the Sikhs.’ The revered mother was deeply moved on hearing this. She instantly came to Guru’s presence with a lawful of patasas. Paying at first her obeisance to Guru ji, she poured the patasas from her lap into that bowl. The all-knowing Guru ji did not look at her and continued with his recitation of Jap ji with full concentration. After reciting the sacred compositions of Jap ji, Jaap Sahib, Sawayyas and Chaupai, he recited Anand Sahib. When the ambrosial elixir became ready, he stood up and performed the Ardas. Concluding it with the prayer; he called out Fateh, and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal. "The True Guru, then, dripped the ambrosial nectar five times, from the edge of the Khanda into his own mouth, repeating each time the Fateh, salutation of God’s victory. "The True Guru, thereafter, holding the Khanda in his right hand, said, ‘This broadsword with the stirring of which I am going to give you the ambrosial nectar of steel, was endowed to me by the Immanent and Eternal Being (God) on His calling me from the mountain of Hemkunt. Keep it (its replica) under your short turban. With its blessing you will gain victory in every field of activity.’ "After this, he uttered the following three couplets38 in a roaring voice: Ais ikRpwn KMFo KVg, qubk qbr Ar qIr[ sY& srohI sYhQIN, XhI hmwry pIr [ You are the Timeless You are the goddess of death; You are the arrow. You are the symbol of victory. You are the Almighty Hero of the world.38 "After uttering the above couplets, he looked towards the Five, Daya Ram and others, who were standing in front and watching with fixed gaze the bowl of nectar. Making them sit in the bir-asan, he administered to each, by turns, that ambrosial nectar of the broadsword. Then, starting at first from Bhai Daya Ram and going up to Bhai Himmat Chand, he made them drink three sips each of whatever nectar was left over in the bowl. Returning them from Bhai Himmat Rai and proceeding towards Bhai Daya Ram, he finished the nectar by letting them take two more sips each. "Assigning the word Singh first to his own name and thence to the names of all the Five Chosen Sikhs, Guru ji called out Fateh (the victory salutation) and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal. "Thereafter, Guru ji pronounced, ‘on your rebirth in the Khalsa Panth, your previous lineage, caste, creed, calling, customs, beliefs and superstitions, etc. stand annulled from now onwards. Transforming you into the Order of Khalsa, I have endowed you with the apparel of the Almighty God, you shall have to keep its honour. Before administering this nectar of steel, I also bestowed you with five kakaars (Ks, i.e. defining emblems). You have never to keep them away from your body even by mistake. I gave you, at the start, a blue keski, kangha, kirpan, sarbloh ka kara and white kachhehra. In the event of the loss or misplacement of any of these, get its infringement pardoned in the Sangat by going to Gurdwara without any delay. "Now listen to the following four bajjar kurehats (negative injunctions or transgressions) by the commission of any of them a Sikh becomes an apostate and cannot intermingle with the Sikh sangat. The first is the dishonouring of one’s rom (hair) from top to be. The next are eating of kutha, using of tobacco and cohabiting with a Muslim woman. In the event of the infringement of any one of these, you must get yourself pardoned by having yourself re-baptized with the nectar of the broadsword. Do not cherish any relation or communication with the five antagonists of the Panth, that is, the descendants and followers of Prithi Chand, Dhir Mal, Ram Rai, masands and the shaven. Whosoever from any of them shall come to the Sangat and shall present himself for forgiveness for his omissions or commissions, he should be forgiven without any suspicion or hesitation. You shall not fix your faith, even by mistake, in any monastery, crematory, tomb or grave, excepting in God, the only One Timeless Being. I have blended you with gold’ - So do not harbour delusions and suspicions, differentiation’s and discriminations among yourselves". This too is almost a complete statement on the above aspect of the event, described in a simple, systematic, explicit and plausible way, which we miss in other available contemporary - or near-contemporary - accounts, including the works mentioned above. It is very useful and encouraging to note that the basic elements of the process of the preparation of the nectar and its administration, as mentioned by Kaushish, accords in their basic formation with what is outlined in the Sikh Rehat Maryada approved in 1945 by the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar, and which are in actual practice uptil now, that is more than two hundred years after the completion of the text of Guru Kian Sakhian by Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushish. His version is, however, deficient in missing (though hinted) one important incident of the event which is touched, as under, but not concluded in Koer Singh’s Gurbilas which tells that after baptising the Blessed Five, Guru Gobind Singh himself besought to be baptized likewise by the Blessed Five and admitted thereby to the Brotherhood: Ja vidhi amrit tum Gur payo taise mohe milayo bhayo.50 On the other hand, we do not find the inclusion of the above-mentioned Sarab Loh Ka Kara (steel bracelet) in the list of the 5 kakaars (five Ks. emblems) given in Koer Singh’s version. As far as I know, Sarup Singh’s Sakhian is the first such work which has included it in that list of five in so many words. According to both Koer Singh and Sarup Singh, it was the revered mother who, after hearing from Kirpa Ram about what the Guru ji was doing, had come of her own and had poured a lawful of patasas (sugar puffs) in the bowl of nectar under preparation.51 But Bhai Kesar Singh Chhibbar’s Bansavalinama wrongly and unduly gives the credit of the sweetening of the ambrosial water to Diwan Sahib Chand, one of his own ancestors.52 Without mentioning the names of the universally accepted Panj Piare (Five Beloved Ones), Chhibbar had wound up his description of the ceremony rather casually and un-becomingly. Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, on the other hand, has given Mata Nanaki53 as the name of the revered mother on whose suggestion, he says, the Guru had sent for some lump sugar and after getting that powdered, he put that in the bowl: tab Satguru misri layi mangai.54 Without making any mention of the Guru’s call for the Sis-bhet and prompt response of the Five Beloved Ones, and also without giving any detail of the baptismal ceremony, he has disposed of the entire event by just stating thereafter: Prabh nij kar pahul sangat ko diya. Singh sangia naam padvi sabh diya. Kesadhari sabh ko kina Bir saroop sabh ko Prabh dina.55 - End of Part II [To be concluded] v References 16. That is, the Guru alone know the purport of his thoughts and actions. 17. Nanak Dev, Sri Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, compiled & edited by Sri Guru Arjan Dev in 1604 at Amritsar, Raga Ramkali, p.933. 18. That is, Epistle of Victory, Guru Gobind Singh’s historical letter, dated 1706, addressed to Emperor Aurangzeb and got delivered to him at Ahmednagar. 19 & 21. Sewa Das, Parchian, op. cit., parchi no.13; Episodes from Lives of the Gurus, Chandigarh-1995, op. cit., pp. 39 & 135/83, 157-8. 20. i.e., punishment, in the Sikh parlance. 22. That is, the edicts, epistles or letters of the Sikh Masters. 23. Gobind Singh, Sri Guru, edict or epistle dated 12 March 1699, as reproduced in Hukamnamae, compiled & edited by Dr. Ganda Singh, Patiala-1985, pp. 152-153. See also another, dated 1 February, 1700, op. cit., pp. 160-61. 24. Sainapat, Chander Sen, Sri Gur Sobha, Wazirabad-1711, canto 5, st. 32/148; edited by Dr. Ganda Singh, Patiala-1967; 2nd ed. 1980, p.24. Also see st. 2/115-16/122, p.20 & 46/162, p.26. 25. Gurdas Singh, Bhai, Var Ramkali Patshahi Daswin Ki, st.1. 26. Kaushish, Guru Kian Sakhian, op. cit., p.111. See foot-note 8 in this connection. 27. Koer Singh, Bhai, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Amritsar-1751; edited by S. Shamsher Singh Ashok with introduction by Dr. Fauja Singh, Patiala-1968; 2edn. - 1986, canto 9, st.1, p.127. 28. (p.136) - Ibid, sts.87 & 104; pp.134 & 136. 29. Gurbilas Patshahi 10, op. cit., cantos 5, 7-9; pp.68, 71, 107-09; 115, 120-21, 127, 129-30; etc. 30. Bhalla, Mehma Parkash, op. cit., Sakhi no. 19, st. 1; p.829. 31. Chhibbar, Bhai Kesar Singh, Banswavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka, Amritsar-1769, Charan 10; edited by Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi, Chandigarh-1972, sts. 288, 316-318. 32. Bhalla, Bawa Sarup Das, Mehma Parkash, Goindwal-1776, Sakhi no. 17 sts. 29-40; edited by S. Gobind Singh Lamba, Patiala-1971, pp. 821-23. 33. See, for instance, the noting dated 7 October 1708 of Bhatt Narbad Singh in the Bhatt Vahi Talauda, Parganah Jind regarding the last commandment of Guru Gobind Singh in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; The Guru Eternal for the Sikhs by Prof. Harbans Singh, Patiala-1988, p.9-10. 38. Gobind Singh, Sri Guru, Shastar Nam Mala, as included in the Dasam Granth Sahib, compiled by Bhai Mani Singh in 1713 (?) at Amritsar; edited by Bhai Randhir Singh and published by Punjabi University, Patiala-1995, Vol.III, P.102, sts.3-5. 50. Koer Singh, Bhai, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, op. cit. canto 9, st. 57, p. 131. 51. Ibid, canto 9, sts. 25-26, p.129; Kaushish, Sakhi no. 59, p. 114. 52. Chhibbar, Bansavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka, op. cit., canto 10, sts. 320-21, p. 120. 53. The holy grandmother of Guru Gobind Singh ji. 54. Bhalla, Mehma Parkash, op. cit., Vol.II, Sakhian Patshahi 10, Sakhi no. 18, st.8, p.826. 55. Ibid, st. 9, p.826. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 fauji wrote You also brought in Mani SIngh and the fake letter linked to him. What makes you think that letter is fake? Dasam Granth says don't trust women. Wasn't Sundri a woman? Stay focussed on the topic. If you have anything on charitra post it on relevant thread. You should be ashamed for using such a low language for mata sundri ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala isn't from any missionary college. He is just a panth daredee. He was not a sikh till a few years ago. he was mona. he became sikh to get some recognition so that he can slander banis of tenth master and sikh history. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Khalsa fauji writes about hukamnama of Bhai Chaupa singh ji. What he does not know or does not write that the same Hukamnama mentions the year of writing of jaap sahib and also mentions banis of Akal ustat and swaiye. It writes the following line from Bachitra natak theekar pher dilis sir prabh pur kia payan Teg bahadar si kirya kari na kinhu aan It also writes about the date of completion of charitro pakhayan quote Usde pathraye chariter uchar hoi.Samant 1753 bhadron sudhi ashtami bhog paya. unquote 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 He was not a sikh till a few years ago. he was mona. he became sikh to get some recognition so that he can slander banis of tenth master and sikh history. At least he became a Sikh. Better than a kesadhari, 5 kakkar dhari acting like a Hindu. You also brought in Mani SIngh and the fake letter linked to him What makes you think that letter is fake? Analysis done by Jaggi on the better proved it wrong. Stay focussed on the topic. If you have anything on charitra post it on relevant thread. You should be ashamed for using such a low language for mata sundri ji. Who told you to bring in letter then? What a scene you are. "The name of the messenger who took this letter was Bhai Daya Singh. When Aurangzeb read this line of the letter, he looked at Bhai Daya Singh and asked, ‘Has the Khalsa taken birth’? ‘Yes, Sir, the Khalsa has appeared,’ replied Bhai Daya Singh. ‘It should not have appeared15. That is a novel nectar to be prepared with the use of a double at this time. I see doom ahead.’ Saying this, Aurangzeb’s face turned pale, and he died." 19 What kind of story is above? Make sure to use it if you ever get into debate in public. Gur-Sangat kini Khalsa Gur Simar Mnaaee Kaalikaa? However, Inder Singh, did you read the article you are promoting? Like I said before, bring your crew to debate. Dasam Granth is translations of Hindu Granths. http://www.thesikhaffairs.org/video.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Khalsa fauji writes about hukamnama of Bhai Chaupa singh ji. What he does not know or does not write that the same Hukamnama mentions the year of writing of jaap sahib and also mentions banis of Akal ustat and swaiye. It writes the following line from Bachitra natak theekar pher dilis sir prabh pur kia payan Teg bahadar si kirya kari na kinhu aan It also writes about the date of completion of charitro pakhayan quote Usde pathraye chariter uchar hoi.Samant 1753 bhadron sudhi ashtami bhog paya. unquote Since he was highly educated. The writings he mentioned, shouldn't they be used for Amrit Sanchar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I linked to portions of Gurmat Maartund where Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha rejects Chritropakhyan and wrote what a Sikh of Mahakaal should do. You should also read what he said about Akaal Ustat’s portions in his Gurmat Maartud. This topic is about Bhagauti not Chrittars or Akal Ustat. So what exactly did you prove by quoting him? Nothing. Stick to the topic. You also got mad at Dal Singh when you couldn’t prove your point on Sikhsangat.com. You also run to mods to get people banned so this isn’t something new from you. I never got mad at him. I don’t need to run to the mods for anything. Do you have any fact to back up your claims? Your statement has nothing to do with this topic. Ever wonder why you are getting warnings from mods on this forum? Once again, this topic is about Bhagauti but you choose to jump around and never stick to the topic. Reminds me of the debate Singhs had with Noormahal’s chela who kept changing the topic and never addressed the points. Pathetic. Do you know how many chaupais there are in Dasam Granth? Kabiobaach Chaupai in Chariter 405 isn’t the only one. There are many others. There is one at the beginning of Akaal (Mahakaal) Ustat. He believed in that one and if you don’t believe me, ask any missionary that is alive from his time. Chaupai Sahib from Chrittars is the one read during Amrit Sanchaar so do not foolishly try to prove anything without any evidence. Regarding Amrit and Banis that must be read. Read what Shaheed Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji has written in his eye witness account called Siri Gur Katha: ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਅਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਸੋਂ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰੀਜੈ । ਪਾਂਓ ਚੁਲੇ ਮੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੋ ਯਾਜਕ ਏਤ ਹੀ ਨੇਤਰ ਕੇਸ ਪਵੀਜੈ ।੧੧੩। Full details of 1699 are written by him along with how Amrit should be prepared, five kakakrs and what happened on that particular day. Missionaries are so pathetic. On one hand they reject all historic sources by calling them creation of “Brahmins” and on the other hand they use the same sources in a futile attempt to disapprove Amrit and five Banis to which even Prof. Sahib Singh agrees. Do you have anything to add from your own or are you going to waste our time by copying what others have written? Why not stick to the topic instead of getting personal and defending or attacking others? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Analysis done by Jaggi on the better proved it wrong Post that analysis here. How did he analyse the letter. Did he send it for chemical testing? Who told you to bring in letter then? What a scene you are. That letter as fake was brought by you. Give us reference 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 This topic is about Bhagauti not Chrittars or Akal Ustat. So what exactly did you prove by quoting him? Nothing. Stick to the topic. Why don’t you read post properly? I told you I brought in Kahan Sing Nabha because you love to use him as a reference so I showed you that even your own reference rejected Mahakaal and Charitropakhyan in the Bhoomikaa he wrote in Gurmat Maartund. I never got mad at him. I don’t need to run to the mods for anything. Do you have any fact to back up your claims? Your statement has nothing to do with this topic. Ever wonder why you are getting warnings from mods on this forum? Once again, this topic is about Bhagauti but you choose to jump around and never stick to the topic. Reminds me of the debate Singhs had with Noormahal’s chela who kept changing the topic and never addressed the points. Pathetic. Mod's note: edited- off topic// Topic is Dasam Granth which Bhagautee is part of. You can’t isolate certain lines and try to justify something. You got to look at the whole picture. Chaupai Sahib from Chrittars is the one read during Amrit Sanchaar so do not foolishly try to prove anything without any evidence. Regarding Amrit and Banis that must be read. Read what Shaheed Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji has written in his eye witness account called Siri Gur Katha: ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਅਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਸੋਂ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰੀਜੈ । ਪਾਂਓ ਚੁਲੇ ਮੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੋ ਯਾਜਕ ਏਤ ਹੀ ਨੇਤਰ ਕੇਸ ਪਵੀਜੈ ।੧੧੩। Full details of 1699 are written by him along with how Amrit should be prepared, five kakakrs and what happened on that particular day. Missionaries are so pathetic. On one hand they reject all historic sources by calling them creation of “Brahmins” and on the other hand they use the same sources in a futile attempt to disapprove Amrit and five Banis to which even Prof. Sahib Singh agrees. That rehatnama is just as credible as the other ones. When Chaupai didn’t even exist in those times, how was it used during Amrit Sanchar? To say Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Guru but to become Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you must read something which isn’t even in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So 4/6 = 67% compositions including Bhagautee are from Dasam Granth. Shouldn’t Dasam Granth be the Guru then? This is like reading Ramayan to become a Sikh of Kuran. If those writings were read during Amrit Sanchar, they would have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Give us the so-called rehatnama of Jeevan Singh to analyze it. Post the scan of the original. Also, there is a reason why Rehat Maryada says changes can be made as more understanding of Gurbani occurs. The rehat maryada in 1930s was made in a compromise and missionaries made mistake of following it unlike the deras who established their own and became more popular through their parchar. Missionaries keep reading Chandi Di Vaar while having no faith in it. Same was the case for likes of Prof. Sahib Singh and others as they read kabeovaach benti chaupai from chariter 405 while knowing it is anti-Gurmat. If you want to know how it is anti-Gurmat, get one of you DG scholars to accept challenge to live debate and we can discuss there. No need to waste time here to go through over 400 stanzas as this is how long Chariter 405 is. Everyone claims to have an eye witness account yet they all say something else. Shouldn’t Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama be eye witness account because he was actually in the ceremony? Like come on, you can fool other blind followers with your statements but not me. How does he know which banis were read? Was he also on or near stage? Does he mention that or that needs to be added to the rehatnama to make it sound official? Were there speakers so Sikhs could hear what Guru Ji was saying? Like said before, this Jeevan Singh rehatnama seems even more fake then. Also, how come the 11 sources I posted don’t mention the writings mentioned in Jeevan Singh’s? How is his official one? Also, post the scan if you got it. You can rely on rehatnamas all you want but I will rely on my Guru, Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Do you have anything to add from your own or are you going to waste our time by copying what others have written? Why not stick to the topic instead of getting personal and defending or attacking others? You are the one attacking others. You are the one getting personal by using comments such as ‘jumping around like a money’, etc. etc. You talked about my maturity but look at yourself? Also, I blame writings of Dasam Granth for acting the way I am. You called me besharam last time when you are the one promoting KK. Waheguru sure knows who really is a besharam. Ask your soul after doing full path of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you will know. Hopefully your dead Anakh awakens along with Akll. Also, I am not the one copying from others and wasting time. You should give this advice to your friend, Inder Devtaa who is using the ID of singh2. Why does he act like a behroopiaa by having so many IDs? Since you want to get back to topic, please show me one quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Bhagautee is used for God. This isn’t the only thing wrong with Chandi Di Vaar. Why is there no mention of Bhagats in Chandi Di Vaar? Guru Ji kept them at same status as him. Since the writer says Durgaa Paath Bnaaya Sabhe Pauria, how is Bhagautee not part of Durgaa Paath then? Who should I believe? You or the actual writer of Chandi Di Vaar? Please clarify. Post that analysis here. How did he analyse the letter. Did he send it for chemical testing? That letter as fake was brought by you. Give us reference Do you own research and dig up the work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 You are the one attacking others. You are the one getting personal by using comments such as ‘jumping around like a money’, etc. etc. You talked about my maturity but look at yourself? Also, I blame writings of Dasam Granth for acting the way I am. You called me besharam last time when you are the one promoting KK. Waheguru sure knows who really is a besharam. Ask your soul after doing full path of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you will know. Hopefully your dead Anakh awakens along with Akll. Also, I am not the one copying from others and wasting time. You should give this advice to your friend, Inder Devtaa who is using the ID of singh2. Why does he act like a behroopiaa by having so many IDs? Since you want to get back to topic, please show me one quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Bhagautee is used for God. This isn’t the only thing wrong with Chandi Di Vaar. Why is there no mention of Bhagats in Chandi Di Vaar? Guru Ji kept them at same status as him. Since the writer says Durgaa Paath Bnaaya Sabhe Pauria, how is Bhagautee not part of Durgaa Paath then? Who should I believe? You or the actual writer of Chandi Di Vaar? Please clarify. Do you own research and dig up the work. Dasam granth is a revered scripture of sikhs. Khalsa fauji is using abusive language ( KK) for this scripture. My request to moderators is that it is not possible to have any discussion with such a person. When asked about refrences he turns a blind eye. I am of he view that this debate will never be conclusive as fauji jumps from one topic to another. I appeal to moderator that because of abusive language of khalsa fauji for a scripture of Guru sahib , he should be banned . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hari Singh rejected Akaal Takht maryada and said meat is wrong. Whole panth had been eating meat until 1900s when this sant babadom came on orders of British to defile Sikhi. Thats funny, you say what isn't missing from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but maybe you missed all those shabads based on killing and meat that Baba Hari SIngh Ji brings up in the debate from Guru Sahib. But i guess that is on one of those occaisions when Sahib Singh's teeka is right! Another thing i dont have a problem with you showing your arrogance and not respected saints but to call Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji just Mani Singh shows the level of respect you had for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Hazoori Sikhs who gave his life for this panth and maintained the sanctitiy of Sri Harmandir Sahib until the day of his shaheedi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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