Hindu Sikh "unity"

[HarjasDevi]

"By the way, we jatts are the descendants of Hunnic invaders who crashed into the punjab at a later date than the races you mentioned."

So you're saying Jatts are Mughals-Mongols. So a Jatt is really a Thurak then? And the language of Jatts is related to Turkic and Gothic or perhaps Iranian?

Jatts have closest association to Rajputs as even sharing same surnames and sometimes even pinds. I have yet to meet a Jatt with Iranian surname. So Jatts are mixed with Persian enculturated descendents of Chinese-Mongolian Uigur Huns now? I don't believe it.

Muslim Uighurs, racial descendants of the Huns, showing clear Mongolian ancestry. Do Jatts even look like them, especially their genetic HAIR distribution. Err, no. Not at all.

Rajputs

Uighur, direct descendant of Huns, looks genetically just like Huns, but not at all like Jatts.

The Uighurs, Huns, and Mughals have caucasian racial admixture which indeed is ancient. It's related to these unusual Celtic (often blonde and red-haired) mummies found in China known as Tocharians. They who fled persecutions in Western Europe, having nothing to do with any "Aryan invasions." They were a variant of Buddhist and Gnostic Christian and wrote in Brahmi script. The Tibetan Buddhists still have scriptures which their lamas recorded from meetings with these people. Gnostic Christianity was unlike modern Christianity and believed in reincarnation, devatay, etc. Bhang and objects of Shamanistic practice have been found with these mummies. So a Vedic-Buddhist religious influence exists as well as association with Tantrism. This puts them squarely into a Sanatan category per heritage and belief structure.

Tocharian man with Buddhist monks in China.

"the relationship between the two being similar to that between Classical Chinese and Mandarin. It must be noted however that the lack of a secular corpus in Tocharian A is by no means definite, due to the fragmentary preservation of Tocharian texts in general.

Most of the script in Tocharian was a derivative of the Brahmi alphabetic syllabary (abugida) and is referred to as slanting Brahmi, However a smaller amount was written in the Manichaean script in which Manichaean texts were recorded [3] [4]. It soon became apparent that a large proportion of the manuscripts were translations of known Buddhist works in Sanskrit and some of them were even bilingual, facilitating decipherment of the new language. Besides the Buddhist and Manichaean religious texts, there were also monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, caravan permits, and medical and magical texts, and one love poem. Many Tocharians embraced Manichaean dualism or Buddhism."

"Common Brahmi, Devanagri and Tocharian Alphabets

Tusharas or Tocharians are Indo European people found settled in ancient times in current Xinjiang NW Autonomous part of China, located in Tarim_basin, SW of Mongolia and North of Tibet. Historians have found mummies of IE origin in this place but now the population looks Mongoloids, as Mongols, Huns, and Kushans ruled over this place. Kushans who ruled India, were supposedly related to Tocharians...

Also Shaivism and Tantra came from A-sur(y)as as per the book referenced in the posting, and we all know that Tantra and Shaivism had a strong presence in Kashmir, Tibet and Mongolia, where Hindu Idols have been found. So is it possible that the Huns got their name from this background? It was a very common practice for Christian Roman Empire to call the Proto Indo Europeans as Pagans and Barbarians, before they were conquered and converted. That is why you see this epithet given to Atilla, Huns and Germans!

Anyway, coming to the main topic, the Devanagari Alphabet sounds are same as Tachurian, and the script is based on Brahmi and looks somewhat closer to Tibetan, Nepalase and Bengali scripts in some letters! We can now see why the relic remains of animal sacrifice in worships, which is from the "Tamas" or "Black" version of Tantra, is to be seen in Tibet, Nepal, Assam and Bengal."Brahmi, Devanagri and Tocharian

Tocharians intermingled with Mongolian groups. The inter-mingled groups such as Uigurs reflect strong genetic bias towards Mongolian racial types and later were converted to Islam. Whereas the Jatts resemble more strongly the Tocharian racial types. So while you may be right in general about association with people who were "Huns," there remained a racial and cultural distinction even back then. Moreover, the relationship to Tocharians is reflected in heritage of Buddhism and Tantric Kashmiri Shaivism, and Brahmi/Devanagri scripts and thus relational to Sanskrit more than any known association to Iranian or even Turkic languages.

"A later group of Tocharians were the Kushans and maybe some Iranian tribes of the Hephthalites whose Iranian population also settled in modern Afghanistan, North-Eastern Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkestan, whereas the nomadic Turkic tribes were defeated by Bahram Gur and the Gokturks, who pushed them over the Hindukush mountains to Sindh (Pakistan) and North-West India."Tocharians

Jatts have more in common with Tocharians as an admixture geographically, genetically and even linguistically then they do with Mongol Turks, Uighurs and/or Mughal descendents of mixed race Eurasian Huns and Persians. So the Jatts are related to ancient Shaivite martial groups of Caucasian ancestry who were once rulers of India, Rajaputras and intermarried with Dravidians giving them darker skin and hair colorations which predominate but still showing the lighter caucasian racial variant. Now there are different lineages within Rajput, but Jatts relationally are a recognized offshoot of some Rajput clans and bearing Rajput surnames. The other strong correlation with Jatt-Rajput culture is actually the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, because so much of the martial tradition of the Khalsa is predated by Rajput customs and practices, including keeping kesas, worshipping shastars, calling as Singhs, and belief that spiritual mission in life is defending Dharama. There is even historical association with tantric practices of animal sacrifices.

Jhatka or Chatka meat (Hindi झटका, Punjabi: ਝਟਕਾ jhaṭkā, from Sanskrit ghātaka "killing") is meat from an animal which has been killed by a single strike of a sword or axe to sever the head, as opposed to Jewish kosher or Islamic halal in which the animal is killed by ritually slicing the throat.

This kills the animal immediately because the spinal cord is severed, and the blood flow to the brain is stopped almost instantly, causing brain death within seconds. Therefore the method is adopted as being the less painful to the animal than other methods.

Hindus and Jhatka

Historically and currently, those Hindus who eat meat prescribe jhatka meat. This is the a common method of slaughter if animal sacrifices are made to some Hindu deities, however Vedic rituals such as Agnicayana involved the strangulation of sacrificial goats. Shaivite Hindus engage in jhatka methods as part of religious dietary laws, as influenced by the Shakti doctrines, which permit the consumption of meat (except beef, which is universally proscribed in Hinduism). The Vaishnavite denomination of Hinduism disallows the consumption of meat, and their relative demographic predominance over the Shaivites leads to the stereotype that all Hindus are vegetarian. During Durga Puja and Kali Puja among Shaivite Hindus in Punjab, Bengal and Kashmir, Jhatka meat is the required meat for practising Shaivite Hindus.

Jhatka Meat and Sikhs

Those Sikhs who eat meat are recommended to eat Jhatka meat,[1] as they do not believe any ritual gives meat a spiritual virtue (ennobles the flesh).[2][3] Another reason Sikhs do not eat halal meat is due to determining to change to it being a prerequisite for conversion to Islam.Jhatka

KAL the Bagwati who is the Sarbloh (which holds the shakti) Khadga-Khanda/Sword demanding sacrifice of chelas. She is an emanation of Chandi/Durga. And the Shakti/feminine reflection of the Divine Power of SadaShiva (unioin of opposites, male and female) the Primordial nirgun Truth-Supreme Consciousness-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda).

"The Tocharians, living along the Silk Road, had contacts with the Chinese, Persians, Indian and Turkic tribes. They might be the same as, or were related to, the Indo-European Yuezhi who fled from their settlements in the eastern Tarim Basin after attacks by the Xiongnu in the 2nd century BC (Shiji Chinese historical Chronicles, Chap. 123) and expanded south to Bactria and northern India to form the Kushan Empire.

The Tocharians who remained in the Tarim Basin adopted Buddhism, which, like their alphabet, came from northern India in the first century of the 1st millennium, through the proselytism of Kushan monks. The Kushans and the Tocharians seem to have played a part in the Silk Road transmission of Buddhism to China.[citation needed] Many apparently also practised some variant of Manichaeanism...

Sanskrit literature in numerous instances refers to the Tocharians as Tukhāra (also Tuṣāra, Tuḥkhāra, Tukkhāra).

The Atharavaveda-Parishishta[7] associates them with the Sakas, Greeks and Bactrians.[8] It also juxtaposes the Kambojas with the Bactrians.[9] This shows they probably were neighbors in the Transoxian region. The Rishikas are said to be same people as the Yuezhi.[10] The Kushanas or Kanishkas are also the same people.[11]

M. A. Stein proposed that the Tukharas were the same as the Yuezhi.[12] P. C. Bagchi holds that the Yuezhi, Tocharioi and Tushara were identical.[13].

The Parama Kambojas of the Trans-Pamirs, mentioned in the Mahabharata are said to be related to the Rishikas [14] who are placed in Sakadvipa (or Scythia).[15] B. N. Puri takes the Kambojas to be a branch of the Tukharas.[16] Some scholars state that the Kambojas were a branch of the Yuezhi.[17]"

Tocharians

"The name Mughal is derived from the original homelands of the Timurids, the Central Asian steppes once conquered by Genghis Khan and hence known as Moghulistan, "Land of Mongols". Although early Mughals spoke the Chagatai language and maintained Turko-Mongol practices, they were essentially Persianized.[9] They transferred the Persian literature and culture[9] to India, thus forming the base for the Indo-Persian culture."Mughals

"Hunnic Empire was an empire founded by the Huns. The Huns were a confederation of Eurasian tribes, in the main probably speaking a Turkic language, but likely with elements of other linguistic groups, from the steppes of Central Asia."

"Hunnic has been considered as related to the extinct Bulgar and to present-day Chuvash in various schemes of genetic relationship. Today these languages are usually classified, with Khazar and Turkic Avar, as members of the Oghuric branch of the Turkic language family.[4]Hunnic Language

Now, recognizing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was himself descended from Khatris, what did He say about his tribal origination in Sri Dasm Granth? He says he is from the Solar dynsaty descended from Ram of Avodhya through Luv and Kush. Why write that? Why claim that if there was no Rajput ancestry? That's the kind of lineage/heritage a Rajput clan preserves. What in this history is like Huns/Mughals/Thuraks?

Just because you fight with Rajputs doesn't disprove descent from them or relationship to their traditions. There were many recognized traitors among the Rajputs who allied with and intermarried their daughters with the Mughals for land and power. There are other Rajputs who forever boycott them in marriages for that reason. Did not Khalsa Singhs also betray and fight against the Guru?

"The Minhas and Bhatti Rajput clans were extremely powerful during the time of the Hindu Shahi dynasty of Kabul and ruled over many small kingdoms extending from eastern Afghanistan through the Jammu/Sialkot areas of West Punjab and up to the Jalandhar/Kangra area of eastern Punjab.According to Farishta, during the second battle of Tarain between Prithviraj Chauhan and Mohammad Ghori in 1192, Chauhan's left flank consisted of Hindu Pathan cavalry. It is said that this Hindu Pathan cavalry was led by a minhas raja from the northwest.

A famous Manhas/Minhas in history was Baba Chamliyal also called Duleep Singh Minhas, a warrior saint, whose Samadhi (place of cremation) is still visited by hundreds and thousands of Pakistanis and Indians each year in the month of June. The Mela (fair) which is held in honour of Baba Chamliyal, was celebrated for the 317th time on Thursday, June 22, 2006 as the man-made boundary between India and Pakistan lost its importance momentarily and people from both sides participated in the mela with vigour.

Banda Bahadur, the famous disciple of Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru and the founder of the Khalsa Brotherhood was born into a Minhas Rajput family in Rajouri in the Jammu region. Banda Bahadur was an accomplished warrior-general, who almost destroyed Mughal presence in eastern Punjab and arguably created the first Sikh State.

Minhas villages in Punjab(India) Anshupal & Baba Mati Dev, both grandsons of Biram Dev Minhas, a commander with first Mughal emperor, Babar established the Minhas clan villages of Daroli Kalan , Droli Khurd, Damunda, Padhiana & Paldi in East Punjab around the year 1530. Almost all these villages are located approximately seven kilometres from the town of Adampur except the village of Paldi, which is in the Garhshankar Teshil in the Hoshiarpur District.

The villages of Manko and Rajowal adjacent to Droli Kalan are inhabited by the Dhillon, Nijjar and Sandhu Jat clans. The village of Haripur which is just 2.5 kilometres from Adampur, also initially belonged to Haria Singh Minhas of the village of Damunda . This village was however surrendered, because of the criminal charges brought up against Haria Singh of molesting labourer women, on the direction of Lehna Singh Majithia, the in charge of Droli Kalan during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Today, although the owners of lands in these villages are mostly Jats because of the enforcement of new Land Laws by the British in the year 1920, the land revenue record even today stands in the name of the Minhas Rajputs of Droli, Padhiana & Damunda.

Minhas Rajputs in Sikh history The first Doaba Rajput to join the army of Guru Gobind Singh was Sangat Singh Minhas of Padhiana in the Jalandhar district, who joined the Guru’s forces with his two brothers and many other Rajput chiefs. A few months later, the Subedar(Governor) of Lahore sent a small group of armed men to collect tax dues from the Rajput Hill Chiefs in whose territory, Anandpur was located under the command of Alaf Khan. The chiefs asked Guru Gobind for help."Daroli Kalan

Entire Rajput, and Jatt clans joined the Khalsa brotherhood. Is this not so? So how does this make them related to the Mughals?

Edited October 26, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[Xylitol]

why did the sanatan people slaughter buddhists and burn down their monastaries?

[chatanga1]

Now, recognizing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was himself descended from Khatris, what did He say about his tribal origination in Sri Dasm Granth? He says he is from the Solar dynsaty descended from Ram of Avodhya through Luv and Kush. Why write that? Why claim that if there was no Rajput ancestry? That's the kind of lineage/heritage a Rajput clan preserves. What in this history is like Huns/Mughals/Thuraks?

Rajput khatris are not the same as the surajvansi khatris. rajput khatris came some time later. if i can remember correctly rajputs are agnivansh khatris. Guru Ji is from Surajvanshi khatri.

Just because you fight with Rajputs doesn't disprove descent from them or relationship to their traditions

does the same apply to Islam because we fought the muslims ? they also claim that Sikhi has copied from them.

There were many recognized traitors among the Rajputs who allied with and intermarried their daughters with the Mughals for land and power. There are other Rajputs who forever boycott them in marriages for that reason. Did not Khalsa Singhs also betray and fight against the Guru?

when did khalsa singh ever fight against Guru?

here is what Guru Ji says of rajputs in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib:

The sons born of that Sanaudh woman,

Line 1

ਵਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨੌਢ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੭॥੩੦੭॥

Were called Sanaudh.17.307.

Line 2

ਸੁਤ ਅਉਰਨ ਕੇ ਉਹ ਠਾਂ ਜੁ ਅਹੇ ॥

The sons of other kshatryas, who lived at that place,

Line 3

ਉਤ ਛਤ੍ਰੀਅ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਏ ॥

They became Kshatriyas of many junior ccastes.

Line 4

ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਕੇ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਾਤੁ ਭਏ ॥

Those Brahmins who ate together with the king.

Line 5

ਨਰ ਸੋ ਰਜਪੂਤ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੮॥੩੦੮॥

They were called Rajputs.18.308.

Line 6

ਤਿਨ ਜੀਤ ਬਿਜੈ ਕਹੁ ਰਾਉ ਚੜਿਓ ॥

After conquering them, the king (Ajai Singh) moved to gain further conquests.

Line 7

ਅਤਿ ਤੇਜੁ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਬਢਿਓ ॥

His glory and magnificence increased enormously.

Line 8

ਜੋਊ ਆਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਅਰੁ ਸਾਕ ਦਏ ॥

Those who surrendered before him and married their daughters to him,

Line 9

ਨਰ ਤੇ ਰਜਪੂਤ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੯॥੩੦੯॥

They were also called Rajputs.19.309.

so 2 things i have picked up from this , 1 that brahmins were also called rajputs, and 2 , that giving their daughters away to save their lives is an inherent trait of the rajputs.

[Mithar]

Harjas Kaur, many races all over Asia are descendents of the Hunns and scythians. When the Scythians and later the Hunns invaded India they married the local Indian women. From that union came the Jats, Gujjars and even many Rajputs(particularly the Agnivansh Rajputs). The Hunns and Scythians who remained in western China married into the Turkic people and from that union came the Uigurs. Where ever the Hunns and Scythians settled they adopted the local language and customs. This the history of Asiatic migrations.

From a Sikh perspective there is not much difference between the centralist Hindu controlled government in Delhi and the Chinese. So calling us Chinese collaborators is not much of an insult for us. The Chinese were not the ones who took away Haryana, Himachal and Chandigarh from us. China is the one who is stealing our river waters for free. China isn’t the one who attacked Harimandhir Sahib and it wasn't the Chinese who were distributing sweets in many cities across North India after operation BlueStar. China isn’t the one who killed Sikhs in the streets of Delhi in 1984 after Indira Gandhi (Dushtni/Paapan)was killed and neither is China the one who carried out extra judicial killings of Sikhs in Punjab after 1984. So please don’t give us this crap about Sikhs being helped by China and trying to make us feel guilty about it.

Strange how Hindus who carried out all this discrimination and torture against us should not feel guilty, yet if we defend ourselves we should feel guilty? What kind of BS logic is this? You have clearly shown that you are obviously not thinking in a fair and balanced manner. You are only one sided on the issue.

[Akaal_Das]

Why is it so hard for these fake Sikhs who in reality are vaishnites that Gurmat is against worshiping Devtas.

They talk about long hair but why they forgot that Muslims , jews and Christians warriors used to have long hair too.

All devtas are myths not more then that . Arabian Night cant be true.

There is no such thing called Sanatan Sikhism. In Sikhi there is no Sanatan , Puratan or Navintam.

Leave us alone ,u indus have destroyed our Gurdwaras , u people had killed our Brothers , raped our sisters and burn our childreen./

What u want know ?

We Sikhs are not Snakes but we have memmory of snake . Just Like snake we never forgive our enemy.

Start this topic inSikh Sangat forum u will get the reply in the language u people understand.

And Stop calling our martyers terrorist. Terrorist r u people who destroyed budhissm and unlimited tribal relegion.

When we were fighting against unjustice of Mughals we were hero and when we raise arms aginst Hindu injustice against Sikh we become terrorist. We dont need character certificate from Hindus.

watch it .

Guru mera baksh de koum nu ik Bhindranwale.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Akaal_Das

[Kaljug]

LOL

I love the way the forum has gone since I've been on hols: Muslims are actually Hindus, Sikhs are actually Hindus and disrespect Hindus by refusing to believe in their fantasies, Sikhs are acting as tools of the Chinese or Muslims when they defend themselves against Hindutva terrorists, some paleface Hindutva goon needs to teach us poor simple brown folk that we've been wrong all these years.

Harjas "Kaur", it is only disrespectful to refer to your RSS friends as cowpiss drinkers if it is untrue:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/coke-has-a-rival-rsss-cow-urine-cola/421641/

As it seems obvious from your posts that you own a dictionary, I suggest that you look up the word disrespctful and untrue. Please don't go to the trouble of typing up the definitions here as most of us own an Oxford English dictionary or at least a Merriam-Webster.

K.

[chatanga1]

We dont need character certificate from Hindus.

too right!

[chatanga1]

re hindusikh brotherhood forum.

in order to maintain Hindu-Sikh unity and brotherhood, you know, the kind that harjas kaur loves, this is what truehindu posted:

Even Harigovind who was not very spiritual at all, only became the guru after Arjun Dev because he was his son. He was more of a soldier and hence introduced the concept of Miri Piri to justify his Hunting and fighting in battles.

Up until now all the gurus had been saintly and preached non violence.

and this is the next post by shivbhagat:

truehindu said :

Even Harigovind who was not very spiritual at all, only became the guru after Arjun Dev because he was his son. He was more of a soldier and hence introduced the concept of Miri Piri to justify his Hunting and fighting in battles.

------

Exactly.

Dontcha think harjas has a nerve to complain about how sikhs views hindus, when hindus are making these comments and expects us to maintain our proud "rajput" ancestry. she, like the rest of them with these views are very 2 faced.

Edited October 26, 2009 by chatanga1

[HarjasDevi]

"paleface Hindutva goon needs to teach us poor simple brown folk that we've been wrong all these years."

Actually, I'm brown, probably darker than you are, and not some "paleface," per your fantasies. My family are Romas and whose language roots are traceable to Punjabi hence originating from North India and related to Rajputs, Jatts, Doms and Banjaras. My ancestors fought in the wars against the Mughals. Why would I claim to be one?

ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਧਾਨੁ ਮਲੇਛਾਂ ਖਾਈ ॥

dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee ||

They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee ||

O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life.

ਛੋਡੀਲੇ ਪਾਖੰਡਾ ॥

shhoddeelae paakhanddaa ||

Renounce your hypocrisy!

ਨਾਮਿ ਲਇਐ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਰੰਦਾ ॥੧॥

naam laeiai jaahi tharandhaa ||1||

Taking the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall swim across. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 471

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥

kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee ||

O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoon khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao ||

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||

Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥

kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8||

Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||

~SGGS Ji ang 477

Edited October 27, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

re hindusikh brotherhood forum.

in order to maintain Hindu-Sikh unity and brotherhood, you know, the kind that harjas kaur loves, this is what truehindu posted:

The issue is about the validity of Sikh-Hindu Unity, and not merely some forum. Besides of which there are a thousand insulting idiots who are neither representative of Sikhi or Hindu Dharm, as I've said before. My challenge was for denouncing Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts by comments on this forum, and here I am told:

"We Sikhs are not Snakes but we have memmory of snake . Just Like snake we never forgive our enemy. Start this topic inSikh Sangat forum u will get the reply in the language u people understand."

Why blame me personally for every injustice and evil thing your minds can imagine? What did I have to do with it? Do you think I go around driving tanks in my spare time waiting to park it in some Gurdwara? You cannot forgive? Where is the offense? This is the propaganda to make Hindu religion into Hindustani politics because ignorant thugs and corrupt political leaders wanted to destroy communal harmony.

But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

[HarjasDevi]

"My source for information on the Vienna case is the Ravidass Sabha, UK."

That is not a verifiable link we can all cross-confirm. If you say your sources are from downtown London, Ravidass temple in the words of Sant Ravidass Himself! What does that mean?

Link please, or it's unverifiable hearsay.

Besides, you said they had easily recognizable Chamar names. Well, what are they and where is the verifiable link?

[HarjasDevi]

"War in the region hurts China's main goals at the moment, which are economic growth.

In any case: "The article in question appears to be an expression of individual opinion and does not accord with the officially stated position of China on bilateral relations conveyed to us on several occasions, including at the highest level, most recently by the State Councillor Dai Bingguo during the visit to India last week," he (Indian Minister)said, reacting to the analyst's views."

Isn't that what China said before the surprise attack in 1962?

And if that's the case, who's funding and arming the Naxals?

[HarjasDevi]

If hindus created all that why did the sikhs do all the fighting? What were the hindus doing for 900 years? Can you prove that Guru Gobind Singh adopted anything off the rajputs?

At this point i would request the mods to step in and stop this hindu tarnishing of our faith and heritage. If it's allowed to carry on, some unfortunate home truths may have to be said to put these people in their place.

Sikhs did all the fighting? Really? And what about the entire Rajput and Jatt regiments that joined them? They didn't come from Hindu background? And once they became Khalsa Sikhs, disciples of the Guru, they stopped having any association with Hindu ancestry and heritage? And Banda Singh Bahadur, born and raised a Rajput AND a dera baba, he takes deeksha with Guru but he can no longer credibly be said to have been a Hindu from Hindu background?

You see, you're asking where were all the Hindus? And yet here clearly many became submerged into the Army of Guru Gobind Singh. That's not exactly NO Hindus fighting. That's just Hindus JOINING.

The Hindus like my and your ancestors were fighting and dying and being persecuted and becoming enslaved. Why? Because they faced overwhelming odds and not for any racial or ethnic deficiencies. The very same "Hindus" also won great battles when they had military advantage. Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji lose battles and suffer defeats? The same was happening to all the Hindustanis for hundreds of years.

But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?

Proof that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted martial traditions of the Rajaputra clans?

Does the fact that they originate from the martial traditions of the Rajaputras for hundreds of years, and Rajputs joined Guru Gobind Singh's Army and he created an Order which incorporated those same traditions not mean anything?

Singh surname, where did it originate? If all the Hill Rajas had surname of Singh, who were Shaiva Hindus (not Vaishnav), and then Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa made up of all castes adopted the royal surname, it is a unique statement of equality, but it is not a new invention. It was NOT unique to Khalsa Sikhs as all the Hill Rajas had the same surname.

Singh (Punjabi: ਸਿੰਘ ,Hindi: सिंह singh , Gujarati: સિંહ sinh) is derived from the Sanskrit word Siṃha meaning "lion"[1]. It is a common title, middle name, or surname in Northern India,

originally used in the 7th century by the Rajputs

of the princely states of Rajputana (present day Rajasthan). In 1699 the name was adopted in Punjab by adherents of the Sikh faith, according to the wishes of Guru Gobind Singh.

Singh Surname

So the Singh surname has an origin in HINDU Rajaputras. It is not unique to Sikhs.

Uncut kesas and jura. Veer ji, this is Shiva Ji's swaroop. The jura is tied over the area of dasm dwara/sahasranama chakra. It is a yogic practice. You jap the Naam Gurmantr and it puts the vibration of the sound current into the hairs forming a mudra/seal over the mind/mann on the spot of the dasm duar.

That comes from ancient HINDU yoga practice.

Whether or not any other religion keeps kesas and beards, how many of them tie jura?

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਨਾਦ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

jaa kee dhisatt naadh liv laagai ||1|| rehaao ||

by His Glance of Grace, we are lovingly attuned to the Sound-current of the Naad. ||1||Pause||

ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||

The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of

the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥

this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||

Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure

essence of all distilled essences. ||2||

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥

eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||

Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥

theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||

In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 92

Adh Chand worn with tora over a dastaar comes from Chandi the moon, and has Siv linga through it in form of the kadga/Khanda representing attainment of gyaan that cuts throu Maya. If it is NOT a Chand, why is it called clearly Chand? And if it is a Chand, it has yogic associations with Shiv swaroop. It is reflecting the union of Shiva and Shakti and worn at level where Tilak is worn, at third eye, for insight/wisdom. This is clearly part of Shiv roop in form of trishula which comes from Shaiva yoga representing the Ida, Pingala and Shushmana nadis.

Do Muslims go around wearing tilak or tying hair in a jura or have yogic principles of nadis and chakrs discussed in their scriptures? No! Because all this comes from HINDU heritage. The Akali Sikh is a YOGI and supposed to be Master of the three worlds. His roop reflects enlightenment attained by yogic practices of Naama Japa and sas giras Simran/pranayam to stimulate the kundalini shakti and open the Dasam Duara through form of kechari mudra where the "tongue" tastes the amrit nectar and becomes a "cup."

ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਲਘਿ ਪਇਆਣਾ ।

paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa|

Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਲਘਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ।

kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa|

Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.

ਸਤਿ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰਥੁ ਸੁ ਗਰੰਥੁ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ।

sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa|

He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude.

ਖੇਚਰ ਭੂਚਰ ਚਾਚਰੀ ਉਨਮਨ ਲਘਿ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਬਾਣਾ ।

khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|

Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord.

ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਘਨਘੋਰ ਨੀਸਾਣਾ ।

panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa|

He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਆਤਮਾ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਸੁਹਾਣਾ ।

guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa|

Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation.

ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੫॥

sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa ॥5॥

This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration.

~Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਤਬ ਮਥੀਐ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥੨॥

rasanaa naam japahu thab mathheeai ein bidhh anmrith paavahu ||2||

If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord ,with your tongue,

then the curd will be churned. In this way, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained. ||2||

ਮਨੁ ਸੰਪਟੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਭਾਵਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥

man sanpatt jith sath sar naavan bhaavan paathee thripath karae ||

Wash your mind in the pool of Truth, and let it be the vessel of the Lord;

let this be your offering to please Him.

ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੇ ਸੇਵੇ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਤੁ ਰਹੈ ॥੩॥

poojaa praan saevak jae saevae einh bidhh saahib ravath rehai ||3||

That humble servant who dedicates and offers his life, and who serves in this way,

remains absorbed in his Lord and Master. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 728

This Raja/Sehaja Yoga which is discussed in Gurbani is a very ancient system. It is not unique to Sikhs.

Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji invent the weapons and the Gatka/Shastar-Vidya traditions which the Rajputs practiced for hundreds of years? NO! He merely adopted them for his Singhs.

There is whole host of paintings depicting the khanda being worn by Rajput kings throughout the medieval era. In Rajput traditions the khanda was plied with both hands and was double-edged. It was used usually by foot-soldiers and by nobles who were unhorsed in battle.

According to some, the design was improved by Prithiviraj Chauhan.[citation needed] He added a back spine on the blade to add more strength. He also got the blade wider and flatter, making it a formidable cutting - slashing weapon. The new design proved very effective against the leather inlaid chain mail armour of Muslim invaders. It also gave a good advantage to infantry over light cavalry of Muslim and other enemy armies.

In the medieval era and with the Islamic invasions, a new type of light and flexible sword was needed along with the new cavalry forces that came to dominate Indian military history. Thus the Sikhs developed the talwar, a single-edged curved sword, which became the archetypal Rajput and Sikh sword.[citation needed]

The khanda became the weapon of last resort. Rajput warriors in battle wielded it with both hands and swung it over their head when surrounded and outnumbered by the enemy. It was in this manner that they traditionally committed an honourable last stand rather than be captured.

Even today venerating the Khanda on the occasion of Dussehra is de rigueur for Rajputs.

The khanda and related Indian straight swords are generally used in Indian theatre and art to represent the weapons of the ancient period of Indian history. Some religious iconography, such as statues of Kali, feature it. Straight swords are used in the classical Kathakali dance form, and the related Indian martial art Kalarippayattu.Khanda

Sikhs did not invent the Talwar. That is why it says citation needed. But neither did the Rajputs. In this case, the Talwar comes from the Mughals.

A talwar, talwaar, or tulwar (Hindi: तलवार, Urdu: تلوار, Bengali: তলোয়ার) is a type of curved sword, equivalent to the European sabre (or saber), originating in medieval India dating back to at least the 13th century.

The talwar is an Indian sword influenced by the Persian shamshir and the Turkish kilic. The difference between them is that the blade of a talwar is wider than the blade of a shamshir, and lacks the expanded yelman (false-edge) of the kilij. Due to its growing popularity in the Mughal Empire, the talwar was also produced in 19th Century Afghanistan in form of the "Afghani talwar," or pulwar. Late examples often had European-made blades, set into distinctive Indian-made hilts.

The talwar may have largely replaced the unique khanda sword of ancient India as the sword of choice in medieval Indian armies. Sikh warriors continued to wield the khanda, a dedicated cutting sword, in battle and it is often used in Gatka a Sikh martial art. The khanda became the weapon of last resort. But the tulwar was more frequently used.

India also has several unique bladed weapons, entirely native to the subcontinent. The distinctive looking Indian wootz steel was known across Asia as uniquely flexible and strong, and was used to construct many of these weapons.

Again gatka was not invented by the Sikhs, it comes from ancient Shastar Vidya which is written about in Puranic times and associated with the Rajput clans.

Sanskrit terms for "martial art" include dhanurveda (from dhanus "bow" and veda "knowledge", literally the "science of archery" in Puranic literature, later applied to martial arts in general[1]) śastravidyā (from vidyā "learning , knowledge" and śastra) "sword, weapon", literally "knowledge of the sword".[2] The Vishnu Purana text describes dhanurveda as one of the traditional eighteen branches of "applied knowledge" or upaveda.[3] The historical form of wrestling is called mallayuddha in the north and malyutham in the south. In contemporary India, major martial arts styles practiced are Kalaripayattu in Southern India (an umbrella term for diverse armed and unarmed styles), and Pehlwani wrestling in Northern India. Notable regional styles include thang-ta from Manipur and gatka from the Panjab region...

Martial arts were not exclusive to the kshatriya caste, though the warrior class used them more extensively. The 8th century text Kuvalaymala by Udyotanasuri recorded fighting techniques being taught at ghatika and salad educational institutions, where non-ksatria students from throughout the subcontinent (particularly from South India, Rajasthan and Bengal) "were learning and practicing archery, fighting with sword and shield, with daggers, sticks, lances, and with fists, and in duels (niuddham)"...

Martial arts are often associated with avatars in the Puranas.Shastar Vidya

Can you show where any of these things were inventions only of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or heritage belonging only to his shishyas? And that he coming from solar dyansty of Rajaputra (sons of Kings) Khatri Kshattriya heritage did not learn them as part of his heritage along with his tutoring by Sanskrit scholars?

Khatri gotras are divided into three major groups; Baraghar, Bawanji and Sarin. These divisions were reported by Emperor Akbar's close adviser Abu'l Fazal in his book Ain-i-Akbari (compiled in 1590). These grouping are said to been around at the time of Ala-uddin Khilji (1296-1316).

Bhai Gurdas (b. AD 1551) in his, "Varan Bhai Gurdas Ji", Vaar 8 - Pauri 10 (Khatri jatan) mentions: barahi, bavanjahi, Pavadhe, pachadhia, phalian, khokharainu, chaurotari and serin sections.

The family names mentioned above have existed for long time. We know that the four gots of the Sikh gurus have existed at least since the 15th century CE:

1. Guru Nanak: Bedi

2. Guru Angad: Trehan

3. Guru Amardas: Bhalla

4. Remaining seven: Sodhi

The historical reasons for these divisions need research. A regional clan grouping is the Kukhrain grouping (see below). Yet another grouping is one associated with the ten Sikh gurus (Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla, and Sodhi).

Regionally Churamani, Nanda, Khullar, Jerath, Chopra and Vig were particularly connected with Ludhiana; Bahl, Kapoor, Mehra, Seth, Beri, Sencher and Dhir with Jagraon ; Batte, Sondhi and Karir with Machhiwara and Bahlolpur ; Sehgal and Thapar with Raikot; and Had and Cham with Khanna...

The origin of many clans and surnames is not exactly clear. It is possible that some of the clans among the Khatris, Rajputs and Jats, along with other similar subgroups, are somehow related...

Kukhran (also spelt Kukhrain) Khatris are a regional grouping of ten subcastes of Punjabi Khatris originally from the town of Bhera in the Jech doab (Jhelum - Chenab interfluve) region of Sargodha district of Pakistani Punjab. In keeping with Khatri traditions, Bhera was an important trading outpost on the road to Kabul, and a 'taksal' (mint) during the reign of Ranjit Singh. Kukhrans are Aryan and Vedic peoples and have originally followed Hinduism, however a significant number adapted Sikhism during the 18th and 19th centuries. This, and also because many Hindu Kukhran families, as well as other Khatri clans, raised at least one Sikh son after the formation of the Khalsa in 1699, resulted in Kukhran family names, as well as other Khatri clan names, being present in both Hindu and Sikh communities worldwide.Khatri

[Matheen]

That is not a verifiable link we can all cross-confirm....

The Ravidass Sabha is the organisation that was headed by the killed sant. Their W.London branch is to be found at 282 Western Road, Southall, Middx UB2 5JT. President is Jog Raj Ahir.

I'm not about to splash the names of suspects in a murder case all over the internet. Is the internet your only source of information?

When former idol worshippers become sikhs of a self-declared 'idol breaker' (ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥ - Sri Dasam Granth) , I doubt they had any intention to keep their old beliefs. If they were happy with their old beliefs, they wouldn't have become Sikhs. The same goes for the thousands of Muslims who became Sikhs.

By your logic, even Hindus who became Muslims are still Hindus, because of their ancestry.

Shastar vidya simply means knowledge of weapons. There are penthras and techniques found in Sikh Shastar Vidya that are not found in any other art. During times of war, techniques are constantly evolving to cope with the conditions. Human beings have defended themselves from time immemorial, wherever they may be and there are similarities in weapons etc all over the world.

Ultimately, Guru Sahib has declared that they are neither Hindu nor Muslim. For you to question that shows incredible arrogance and disregard for your Guru, assuming that Guru Sahib is your Guru.

Whatever the case may be, please stop copying and pasting totally irrelevant passages from wikipedia and elsewhere - simply post the link.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Matheen

[Matheen]

HarjasKaur, on 25 October 2009 - 04:47 PM, said:

.......Did not Khalsa Singhs also betray and fight against the Guru?

No.

Out of interest, can you read Gurmukhi? (just yes or no, no essay)

[Akaal_Das]

The issue is about the validity of Sikh-Hindu Unity, and not merely some forum. Besides of which there are a thousand insulting idiots who are neither representative of Sikhi or Hindu Dharm, as I've said before. My challenge was for denouncing Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts by comments on this forum, and here I am told:

Why blame me personally for every injustice and evil thing your minds can imagine? What did I have to do with it? Do you think I go around driving tanks in my spare time waiting to park it in some Gurdwara? You cannot forgive? Where is the offense? This is the propaganda to make Hindu religion into Hindustani politics because ignorant thugs and corrupt political leaders wanted to destroy communal harmony.

But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

Typical Hindu after killing so many people asking where is the offence.

Listen this for Hindu offence and Sikh rebellion . Who started this we or u

http://sikhsangeet.c...-Star-1984.html

and

Edited October 27, 2009 by Akaal_Das

[laalsingh]

ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਧਾਨੁ ਮਲੇਛਾਂ ਖਾਈ ॥

dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee ||

They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee ||

O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life.

ਛੋਡੀਲੇ ਪਾਖੰਡਾ ॥

shhoddeelae paakhanddaa ||

Renounce your hypocrisy!

ਨਾਮਿ ਲਇਐ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਰੰਦਾ ॥੧॥

naam laeiai jaahi tharandhaa ||1||

Taking the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall swim across. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 471

You are doing exactly the same. You are twisting meanings of Gurbani and attacking own Gurus to please your masters.

What do you think meaning of Malech/Turk is? Please be to the point (No essays).

[chatanga1]

harjas kaur, i'll ask again, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus?

simple yes or no, if possible.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Damn. This thread is a war zone.

Kabir also says:

Na Hum Hindu Na Mussalman, Allah Raam Kay Pind Praan.

It is totally wrong and utter crime to take a shabad out of context to try to prove a point. Sikhs aren't Hindus.

Gurbani says:

Hindu Anna Turku Kaanaa

Dohaa Tay Gyani Siaanaa

Hindu Poojai Dehuraa

Mussalmaan Maseet

Naamay Soaee Seveaa Jah Dehura Na Maseet

We, as Sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, don't hate any community. Hindus are free to do their devi pooja and sing from Markandeyaa Puran. It is their dharam, we got no business in their dharam. However, if they want to invade our dharam and try to make us Hindus or declare us a sect of Hindus, then we have an issue.

Otherwise, bring live debate to prove that Sikhs are Hindus.

Bring it to TO.

[HarjasDevi]

"it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion?

Like I said, check their names - they were all from his community.

I'm not about to splash the names of suspects in a murder case all over the internet. Is the internet your only source of information?

If you will not even say their obviously Chamar names, then it's a "secret?" The Vienna police have already publically posted their names and they were indistinguishable from any caste. Are you saying the sources of the Vienna police are fake, but your secret hear-say evidence is believable?

The Ravidass Sabha is the organisation that was headed by the killed sant. Their W.London branch is to be found at 282 Western Road, Southall, Middx UB2 5JT. President is Jog Raj Ahir.

Thank you ji, I will contact them.

[HarjasDevi]

But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

Typical Hindu after killing so many people asking where is the offence.

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

[HarjasDevi]

Who started this we or u?

Neither.

[HarjasDevi]

By your logic, even Hindus who became Muslims are still Hindus, because of their ancestry.

That is what Gurbani says.

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Paṛĥaṯ gunaṯ aise sabẖ māre kinhūʼn kẖabar na jānī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

Sakaṯ sanehu kar sunaṯ karī▫ai mai na baḏ▫ugā bẖā▫ī.

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

Ja▫o re kẖuḏā▫e mohi ṯurak karaigā āpan hī kat jā▫ī. ||2||

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

Sunaṯ kī▫e ṯurak je ho▫igā a▫uraṯ kā ki▫ā karī▫ai.

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

Araḏẖ sarīrī nār na cẖẖodai ṯā ṯe hinḏū hī rahī▫ai. ||3||

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 477

[HarjasDevi]

The sikh army punched well above its wait...

Hindu resistance was crushed for centuries...

The Khalsa frequently marched on delhi and was unopposed.

We stopped the invaders of the north by ourselves, so people like the maharattas could run around killing peasants and calling themselves mighty hindu warriors. If hindus created all that why did the sikhs do all the fighting?

"We?" You were there personally?

Hindus joined the Sikhs against the Mughals. Why would they oppose them?

Sikh Rajputs are the followers of Sikhism belonging to the Rajput Ethnic group. According to the 1901 British census of India, there were 769,000 rajput converts to Sikhism.

Sikh Rajputs have a long-standing tradition in Punjab and in Sikh history. During the Mughal era, many Punjabi families followed the teachings of the Guru and were baptized as Khalsa and joined the Guru's order of followers. Many Punjabi Rajput families also enrolled in the Guru's Army, or Khalsa Panth, and baptized as Khalsa Sikhs.

There are many Sikh Rajputs in the history of Sikhism: Banda Singh Bahadur,[2][3] Baba Nidhan Singh of Hazoor Sahib, Bhai Sangat Singh Minhas, Bhai Bachittar Singh Minhas and many families whose kin are followers of Sikhism today. There are many Sikh Rajputs today with common Rajput family names. Sikh Rajputs

Well, seems like the Hindu's were not only fighting in Rajput Armies. The Rajputs were fighting in the Sikh Armies. So how can you say HIndu's were not fighting when they were right beside "you?"

[chatanga1]

harjas kaur, i'll ask again for the third time, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus?

simple yes or no, if possible.