Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 see what i mean using Guru's perosnliaty as prop for their own hatred. and theyy talk about enemies of sikhism. the real enemy of sikhism is the conduct of stupid, egotistical and misguided arrogant sikhs. bowing down humbly before Him and sincerely repeating naams and qualities of His with devotion is a fake act? Do you even know what namaaz involves? Sikhs do not believe in the Mohammed as a prophet, why would Guru Nanak read verses in praise of an Arab sociopath? K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 For the same reason that Ram, Narayan, Gopal, etc are used - they were common names ascribed to God at the time. If you actually believe that Allah of Gurbani and Allah who supposedly authored the Quran, please explain why Sikhs are not compelled to follow the rules set out in the Quran and please tell me if you think the monster who authorises the slaughter of innocents, the owning of slaves for sex, and the institution of tax for non-Muslims is the same Allah that Gurbani speaks so highly of. K. So youre saying that the God of Sikhism was an entirely new God unknown to mankind before the coming of the Gurus? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Both extremes are wrong in this thread, tisra panth in ugardanti clears show that khalsa/gurmat is different/unique marg established by sri guru gobind singh ji. This is my personal opinion based on my research of gurbani and bachitar natak in sri dasam granth and off course i m still learning so please correct me if i m wrong - Gurmat Sidhant/Sikhi Marg is different unique from all the different sidhants/marg and snatan dharma. However our dharam vaans( Guru Maharaj lineage) is coming from Luv/Kush- Suryavanshi lineage which is very much part of snanatan dharam vans. source- sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale work on this, where he explained this by quoting couplets from bachitar natak. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So youre saying that the God of Sikhism was an entirely new God unknown to mankind before the coming of the Gurus? No. Nirguna Brahman is aad sach, jugaad sach. But men have been putting words in God's mouth since the beginning of time to serve their own base desires, and there have been spiritual beings who are not free from haumai who have been claiming to be Akal Purakh for the same amount of time. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Alright and how did God reveal himself prior to 1469?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Both extremes are wrong in this thread, tisra panth in ugardanti clears show that khalsa/gurmat is different/unique marg established by sri guru gobind singh ji. This is my personal opinion based on my research of gurbani and bachitar natak in sri dasam granth and off course i m still learning so please correct me if i m wrong - Gurmat Sidhant/Sikhi Marg is different unique from all the different sidhants/marg and snatan dharma. However our dharam vaans( Guru Maharaj lineage) is coming from Luv/Kush- Suryavanshi lineage which is very much part of snanatan dharam vans. source- sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale work on this, where he explained this by quoting couplets from bachitar natak. Fateh! No one is disagreeing with the fact that Sikhi shares much in common with Hinduism, but Islam shares much in common with Judaism as does Christianity, but no one seems to have a problem with these two children of the parent religion being considered separate paths. Why not the same respect for the uniqueness of Sikhi? K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Exactly i agree, Sikh Marg is Unique and distinct path. Explaining this is like going to basics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Exactly i agree, Sikh Marg is Unique and distinct path. Explaining this is like going to basics. Fateh! Unfortunately there are those out there who need to be reminded again and again that this is the case lest they succeed in their effort to absorb Sikhi into the folds of their own religion. It seems that many of the recent threads here about Sikhi forbidding worship of idols, about Devatay/Devi not being Akal Purakh, and Bhagauti not being Durga Devi are like going back to basics. Nothing wrong with going back to basic though! They are the foundation for everything that comes after. ;-) So what examples do you have for twisting Gurbani to fight external threats? K. Edited August 13, 2009 by Kaljug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Kalyug, I still have to do bit of research on this. However, i was speaking to this gurmukh based on his research. He said- Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha in his- Hum Hindu Nahin give arths of gurbani sometimes twist them in haste to fight hindu fascism because same bhai kahn singh nabha when he quote gurbani of similar subject in his gurmat martand, they were contradictory. ??????????? I need someone online to verify this???, if this indeed true then this is probably an classic example of one twisting gurbani to fighting external threats. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 neo: or maybe because these tuks he used have different meanings? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Every prophet describes God according to their level of understanding. The Allah worshipped in the Quran is the same Allah worshipped in Gurbani, but that does not mean that Allah authored the Quran. Whereas we know that He did author Gurbani. This does not mean that people cannot gain spiritually from the Quran, clearly they can. If someone does think God authored both scriptures, then I would appreciate if they could reconcile the (sometimes glaring) contradictions between the teachings of both scriptures. Neo, I think the question is... does Gurbani need to be twisted to fight external threats? Clearly not. The Gurus knew what we would be up against, and they made the uniqueness of Sikhi clear in Gurbani and further emphasized that with rahitnamas. Edited August 13, 2009 by Xylitol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 To my good friend Kaljug you wrote Allah in Gurbani is no more the deity who supposedly authored the Quran than Ram in Gurbani is Ram of Ayodhya (unless used in that context Would Baba Farid a muslim who accepted the authority of the Quran and swore allegiance to the Prophet(peace be upon him) make this distinction. The answer is obviously no. By insulting and using the name of God Allah in a sarcastic manner you are in fact insulting the bani of Baba Farid, because in case you do not understand for a muslim Allah is the same Allah who authored the Quran and Baba Farid was a muslim. Navjot I feel the same as you Sikhi has focused on the external identity too much. The irony is that which is most precious and at the heart of Sikhi, is being destroyed by the very people who are shouting loudest about the 'uniqueness of the Sikh panth'. In What other way than seriously pondering upon and assimilating bani into your essence, can bani be protected, once people stop learning and understanding the message of unity disclosed in Bani, it will be dead forget about external threats. The irony of focusing and preventing 'external threats' to bani is that this very act constitutes a threat to Gurbani, because you are not actualising its principles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 To my good friend Kaljug you wrote Allah in Gurbani is no more the deity who supposedly authored the Quran than Ram in Gurbani is Ram of Ayodhya (unless used in that context Would Baba Farid a muslim who accepted the authority of the Quran and swore allegiance to the Prophet(peace be upon him) make this distinction. The answer is obviously no. By insulting and using the name of God Allah in a sarcastic manner you are in fact insulting the bani of Baba Farid, because in case you do not understand for a muslim Allah is the same Allah who authored the Quran and Baba Farid was a muslim. Navjot I feel the same as you Sikhi has focused on the external identity too much. The irony is that which is most precious and at the heart of Sikhi, is being destroyed by the very people who are shouting loudest about the 'uniqueness of the Sikh panth'. In What other way than seriously pondering upon and assimilating bani into your essence, can bani be protected, once people stop learning and understanding the message of unity disclosed in Bani, it will be dead forget about external threats. The irony of focusing and preventing 'external threats' to bani is that this very act constitutes a threat to Gurbani, because you are not actualising its principles. Fateh! Would you like to point out the Bani of Baba Farid in Sri Guru Granth Sahib where he tells us how highly he thinks of Mohammed? Or that he was a Muslim and not a disciple of the everlasting Satguru? Your last paragraph I'm not even going to comment on because it reveals your typical absence of logic. Sikhs are destroying Sikhi by preserving it as a unique Panth that owes its allegiance to no Arabian self-declared prophet? Please. And I'm quite sure you agree with Navjot because both of you do not want Sikhs to be proud of Sikhi as it is without being subsumed into Islam, Hinduism, or whatever nonsense you believe in. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 baba farid swore allegiance to the prophet? is that why he grew disenchanted with what islamic missionaries were doing in india? this whole baba farid was a muslim and he's also in the SGGS ji is getting a little old now. or are these lot repeating it over and over again to push their stupider points through with it as well? someone once said the best lie is one with some truth in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Kaljug: Alright and how/when did God reveal himself prior to 1469?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Kaljug: Alright and how/when did God reveal himself prior to 1469?? Read Dasam Granth. By sending Messengers, all of whom became trapped in Maya and, through their haumai, declared themself to be Akal Purakh. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Read Dasam Granth. By sending Messengers, all of whom became trapped in Maya and, through their haumai, declared themself to be Akal Purakh. So Akal Purakh did not guide humanity for hundreds of thousands of years until the coming of Guru Nanak? Edited August 13, 2009 by amardeep 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So Akal Purakh did not guide humanity for hundreds of thousands of years until the coming of Guru Nanak? Sadly the cavemen did not leave behind any religious scriptures to let us know. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Im talking about throughout the four yugas.. There was'nt any guidance for mankind untill the coming of Guru Nanak?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Im talking about throughout the four yugas.. There was'nt any guidance for mankind untill the coming of Guru Nanak?? Vide Dasam Granth. My movie has downloaded, Singh. ;-) K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Im just curious to know your stance and view of religions and God. Do you belive in a God that left his creation without guidance for thousands of years? If so, what kind of weak and unjust God is that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Im just curious to know your stance and view of religions and God. Do you belive in a God that left his creation without guidance for thousands of years? If so, what kind of weak and unjust God is that? Fateh! Read Dasam Granth. Those are my views. How often do you think God should manifest? God is present all the time, Singh, even in Kaljug it is possible for an individual to be guided by Him. Also, never trust mu torrent. Let me know if you want a copy of Twilight Samurai in the original Japanese with Chinese subtitles. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 What are you talking about? I dont understand why you have such great hate for muslims. If they were really left without guidance back then, can you blame them for beliving in Islam (the violent religion you say) Are'nt they more like victims then, as they were deluded by fake prophets because God did not send anyone to guide them ?? Its much easier to misguide men who have no guidance, than to misguide men who are already guided. If God did'n send any guidance for 10.000 years no wonder we have all these wars and problems today. and oh yeah, the root of the problem is then God himself as he was the one who did'n send guidance but left mankind in their own darkness for 10.000 of years.. Instead of you telling me to read Dasam Granth, i would suggest you to read it again! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) What are you talking about? I dont understand why you have such great hate for muslims. If they were really left without guidance back then, can you blame them for beliving in Islam (the violent religion you say) Are'nt they more like victims then, as they were deluded by fake prophets because God did not send anyone to guide them ?? Instead of you telling me to read Dasam Granth, i would suggest you to read it again! for god's sake, didnt you read his post at 09:37pm. waheguru can send thousands of messengers, but if they fall prey to the vices of humanity's bad tendencies, then how is that god's fault? what you are implying borders on blasphemy. god may have sent mohammed, but it was mohammed's choice to shag a 9 year old girl. waheguru cannot micromanage our lives, otherwise what would be the point of reincarnation? waheguru can guide us, but only if we listen. its our fault if we choose to ignore waheguru and force others to believe the lies we spin to silence our conscience. Edited August 13, 2009 by HSD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 for god's sake, didnt you read his post at 09:37pm. waheguru can send thousands of messengers, but if they fall prey to the vices of humanity's bad tendencies, then how is that god's fault? what you are implying borders on blasphemy. god may have sent mohammed, but it was mohammed's choice to shag a 9 year old girl. waheguru cannot micromanage our lives, otherwise what would be the point of reincarnation? waheguru can guide us, but only if we listen. its our fault if we choose to ignore waheguru and force others to believe the lies we spin to silence our conscience. I think we are looking at puratan rishis/munis/pir/pagamvar/prophets lives with goggles of Western Victorian standards. Which is bit unfair. If you have problem with Mohammad marriage with 9 year old girl. Then I am sure you would have problems with lives of our Guru's and their multiple wives/consort at very young age. Again i am not comparing Guru Maharaj ji avastha and Mohammad. I consider Guru Maharaj ji - aap narayan vahiguroo ji. However, sometimes lives of prophets/avtars have to be compared to give reality checks. p.s- I think we are going off-topic now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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