Is It Ok Twist Gurbani Meanings To Fight Extermal Threats?

[SAadmin]

Lately, I have been coming across with many materials online and in real life, which are nothing but simple knee jerk reactions to fight RSS fundamentalist or Islamic fundamentalist claim sikhi is part of sect of their Dharam?. People who have came with such sadistic materials/literature have done more damage to beautiful garden(sikhi) created by sri guru nanak dev ji than external threats attempted to...So question here comes down- is it okay to twist gurbani meanings in other words to fight these external threats? What i meant by twisting gurbani meanings i meant, is it giving out basic arths which are not familiar in academia? Note I mention academia not sampardavas' because as collective panth - teeka of sri guru granth sahib ji by scholars like- prof sahib singh , bhai vir singh ji, bhai amir singh ji teeka of bhai mani singh taksal, faridkot teeka of sri guru granth sahib is consider somewhat standard.

Please give your opinions on this matter, state your reasoning whether you agree or disagree with twisting gurbani meanings just to shut mouth of an outsider claiming how Sikhi is a sect of their dharam.

[laalsingh]

You mean Taqqia? No!

Gurbani is eternal, these threats are not. Lying for sake of Dharma is not permitted. Shiite Caliphes (or whatever) hid their identity to escape death. Karishna encouraged lying in Mahabharta to win.

On the other side, Guru Teg Bahadur ji went to Delhi to show us way. Whom do you want to follow?

[Kaljug]

Lately, I have been coming across with many materials online and in real life, which are nothing but simple knee jerk reactions to fight RSS fundamentalist or Islamic fundamentalist claim sikhi is part of sect of their Dharam?. People who have came with such sadistic materials/literature have done more damage to beautiful garden(sikhi) created by sri guru nanak dev ji than external threats attempted to...So question here comes down- is it okay to twist gurbani meanings in other words to fight these external threats? What i meant by twisting gurbani meanings i meant, is it giving out basic arths which are not familiar in academia? Note I mention academia not sampardavas' because as collective panth - teeka of sri guru granth sahib ji by scholars like- prof sahib singh , bhai vir singh ji, bhai amir singh ji teeka of bhai mani singh taksal, faridkot teeka of sri guru granth sahib is consider somewhat standard.

Please give your opinions on this matter, state your reasoning whether you agree or disagree with twisting gurbani meanings just to shut mouth of an outsider claiming how Sikhi is a sect of their dharam.

Fateh!

Perhaps it would be a good idea to provoide us with an example of what you believe to be a twisting of the meaning of Gurbani in this context?

If you mean sharing quotes from Gurbani with RSS and Islamic fanatics in order to show them that Sikhi is unique and distinct, then I don't see a problem with it, since it is the case that Sikhi is Teesra Panth.

I also do not believe that there is any problem with looking at the facts where other religions are concerned. For example, I do not believe that being aware of the influence of the Cult of Mithras on Christianity (cf. The Golden Bough), or of the origins of Shiva in anthropological terms from early traditions of Shamanism (cf. Mircea Eliade or Wolf-Dieter Storl), or of contemplating the moral failures of Islam's prophet (cf. the Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim) is going to make you any less of a Sikh. Reading will, however, make you less ignorant, more appreciative of the gift of Gurbani, and less likely to be swayed by the propaganda of religious zealots.

What do you think of Kahn Singh Nabha's book Hum Hindu Nahin? Do you think he was twisting Gurbani? What do you believe should be the Sikh response to anti-Sikh propaganda?

Regards,

K.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Kaljug

[tonyhp32]

I agree, Neo needs to bring some examples so that we can all see whether it is twisting of the meaning or just another interpretation which might be equally valid. The only twisting that I have seen online is ironically by RSS, a few Neo-Nihang types, Ahmediyas as well as the usual fanatic Muslim.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

i don't see the problem with people claiming sikhi is part of the hindu dharam or part of Islam. Wasn't that part of the mission of Baba Nanak to spread the message to all faiths. Why does Sikhi have to be distinct why can;t it be part of everything. As long as they don;t distort Gurbani and treat it with full respect then they can interpret it how they like.

[Kaljug]

i don't see the problem with people claiming sikhi is part of the hindu dharam or part of Islam. Wasn't that part of the mission of Baba Nanak to spread the message to all faiths. Why does Sikhi have to be distinct why can;t it be part of everything. As long as they don;t distort Gurbani and treat it with full respect then they can interpret it how they like.

What a surprise! I guess we shouldn't take any actions when Muslims spread their propaganda and confuse young Sikhs about the differences between the faiths. I guess it's all find and dandy for Sikhs to start doing puja of stone idols and mutilating their bodies because Allah said so, and well Sikhs should respect all faiths by following their stupid laws.

k.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Of course it is OK to do puja to stone idols as long as you realise that the stone idol is not the formless nirankar, paying respect to a representation in stone of cosmic principles actualised by nirankar is good.

[Kaljug]

Of course it is OK to do puja to stone idols as long as you realise that the stone idol is not the formless nirankar, paying respect to a representation in stone of cosmic principles actualised by nirankar is good.

Er, no.

Gurbani says: Do no to worship stone idols.

Gurbani does not say: Do not worship stone idols (unless "you realise that the stone idol is not the formless nirankar, paying respect to a representation in stone of cosmic principles actualised by nirankar is good").

K.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

This is not a physical injunction as Gurbani is not a Sharia Lawbook. It is psychological. Obviously those with a herd mentality will take it as a physical injunction. I can understand how the confused youth scrabbling blindly anywhere for a scrap of some sort of identity can torture such meanings out of Gurbani, ignoring the spirit of Gurbani that teaches tolerance and respect for all religion, remember Baba Nanak worshipped in a masjid and a mandir. He read the namaz and I would think he would not be so arrogant as not to show respect to Hindu Devtas.

[tonyhp32]

Not really Guru Nanak did not read the Namaz as he saw that it was basically a fake act in which Muslims indulge in order to show some sense of religiosity to non-Muslims.

[HSD1]

blah blah

I would think he would not be so arrogant as not to show respect to Hindu Devtas.

oh you think so do you? well guess what, you can 'think' all you want, but it doesnt mean your anywhere near the truth. and what does this have to do with sharia? its about what gurbani says, not some mumbo jumbo biblical sand belief system came up with.

[Kaljug]

This is not a physical injunction as Gurbani is not a Sharia Lawbook. It is psychological. Obviously those with a herd mentality will take it as a physical injunction. I can understand how the confused youth scrabbling blindly anywhere for a scrap of some sort of identity can torture such meanings out of Gurbani, ignoring the spirit of Gurbani that teaches tolerance and respect for all religion, remember Baba Nanak worshipped in a masjid and a mandir. He read the namaz and I would think he would not be so arrogant as not to show respect to Hindu Devtas.

I love your logic. Sikhs who follow rehat maryada are now following herd mentality, those who listen to the message of Gurbani and refuse to bow down to stone idols must be searching for themselves, not believing every single thing that any nutjob says he got from God directly means that Sikhs must be intolerant and disrespectful.

As to GURU Nanak reading the namaz: er, no. He also didn't run around the kaaba believing that God lived inside a black box, and he did not throw stones at a pillar because it was actually the devil, and he did not sacrifice sheep because he thought Allah might be getting peckish.

Worshipping stones, believing you are a Sikh, reading namaaz - it sounds like you are the one who lacks an identity, what what?

K.

[Sat Chit Anand]

It would be good if you could give an example.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I am sure there is a Sakhi in Twareekh Guru Khalsa about Baba Nanak visiting a masjid. And also visiting the kaaba, i thought this was established fact.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

"and he did not sacrifice sheep because he thought Allah might be getting peckish"

Did you know the word Allah is used in Gurbani to represent the one reality. The one reality that Baba Nanak addresses his ecstatic adorations towards. Also the great bani of Baba Farid who was a muslim and worshipped the one reality under the name Allah. How can you write such things when Allah was so close to the hearts of so many sufi sages the many fakirs who purified the mitti of punjab. The nonchalance with which you casually dismiss such holy names show what type of person you are.

[Kaljug]

I am sure there is a Sakhi in Twareekh Guru Khalsa about Baba Nanak visiting a masjid. And also visiting the kaaba, i thought this was established fact.

Go and read the sakhi. Visiting a mosque is not the same as praying in it, and visiting Mecca because Bhai Mardana wanted to go there does not mean Guru Nanak Dev Ji followed any of the rituals of the Hajjis.

K.

[Kaljug]

"and he did not sacrifice sheep because he thought Allah might be getting peckish"

Did you know the word Allah is used in Gurbani to represent the one reality. The one reality that Baba Nanak addresses his ecstatic adorations towards. Also the great bani of Baba Farid who was a muslim and worshipped the one reality under the name Allah. How can you write such things when Allah was so close to the hearts of so many sufi sages the many fakirs who purified the mitti of punjab. The nonchalance with which you casually dismiss such holy names show what type of person you are.

Allah in Gurbani is no more the deity who supposedly authored the Quran than Ram in Gurbani is Ram of Ayodhya (unless used in that context).

K.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Kaljug

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Baba Farid may disagree with you

[Xylitol]

I recall the sakhi where Gurbani was twisted to prevent showing offence to the Moghul emperor. This resulted in Ram Rai's expulsion from the panth. He was expelled despite his obviously high avastha, and despite his familial ties to the Gurus. So what would happen to us??

Now, I recognise that twisting Gurbani to avoid potential trouble is different from twisting Gurbani to get converts, but the same basic principle applies. This is God's word, we have no right to twist it.

[navjot2]

oh my God!

Mekhane'ch Jannat!!!!

i almost wept when reading your responses. i feel like i found a long lost brother/sister!

these people are hateful and just see dharam as an extension of their ego. everything is ideological to them. hence why they are full of hate. how willn they understand what it means to be a devotee, think like a devotee etc

Edited August 13, 2009 by navjot2

[navjot2]

Not really Guru Nanak did not read the Namaz as he saw that it was basically a fake act in which Muslims indulge in order to show some sense of religiosity to non-Muslims.

see what i mean using Guru's perosnliaty as prop for their own hatred. and theyy talk about enemies of sikhism. the real enemy of sikhism is the conduct of stupid, egotistical and misguided arrogant sikhs.

bowing down humbly before Him and sincerely repeating naams and qualities of His with devotion is a fake act?

Edited August 13, 2009 by navjot2

[navjot2]

Allah in Gurbani is no more the deity who supposedly authored the Quran than Ram in Gurbani is Ram of Ayodhya (unless used in that context).

K.

major denial alert.

oh really? so why use the word Allah in the first place?

Edited August 13, 2009 by navjot2

[navjot2]

tell me this

if a hindu or muslims group says that sikhs are part of them, why should/does it have any effect influence on sikhs at all? because modern sikhs are fixated on external idenity (who 'we' are) and insecure. and are being influenced by external things, rather than inwards facing/concentrated.

if you really know who you are, why does it matter how other people define you? that is more their business.

something has gone wrong in the structure of modern panth. they are outward looking rather than inward looking.

[Kaljug]

major denial alert.

oh really? so why use the word Allah in the first place?

For the same reason that Ram, Narayan, Gopal, etc are used - they were common names ascribed to God at the time. If you actually believe that Allah of Gurbani and Allah who supposedly authored the Quran, please explain why Sikhs are not compelled to follow the rules set out in the Quran and please tell me if you think the monster who authorises the slaughter of innocents, the owning of slaves for sex, and the institution of tax for non-Muslims is the same Allah that Gurbani speaks so highly of.

K.

[Kaljug]

tell me this

if a hindu or muslims group says that sikhs are part of them, why should/does it have any effect influence on sikhs at all? because modern sikhs are fixated on external idenity (who 'we' are) and insecure. and are being influenced by external things, rather than inwards facing/concentrated.

if you really know who you are, why does it matter how other people define you? that is more their business.

something has gone wrong in the structure of modern panth. they are outward looking rather than inward looking.

The question is why should Sikhs be the only religion that is not allowed by the numerically larger religions to have an identity of their own? Why should every other religion have laws protecting them and special privileges and Sikhi alone should be stuck with being a second class member of somebody else's cult?

Sikhs were created to be different - we are teesra panth - and anyone who says otherwise is trying to use Sikhs for their own nefarious purposes.

You know, I have a hard time understanding why Sikhs are are so weak in their faith that they would even deny themselves and their Sikh brothers with their own unique identity. You accuse your brothers of being insecure because they are not OK with Muslims wanting to co-opt Sikh and then gradually convert Sikhs to worship their Arab prophet or Hindus desperately trying to replace their failed Kshatriyas with Sikhs to fight their battles, but you take great pride in the fact that guru Tegh Bahadur Ji died so that Hindus could maintain their own unique identity.

Do you not get that, unless Sikhs first have their own political, religious and linguistic identity that we will always be spiritually and politically dominated by those who want to destroy Sikhi or use Sikhs for their own purposes?

K.