Anandpuria Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Please excuse my ignorance. There are several hukamnamas available written by Mata Sundari and mata Sahib Devan ji written during second decade of eighteenth century more than fifteen years after tenth Guruji passed away. Still they wrote their names Sundari and Sahib Devi. Apparently they had not taken Khande di Pahul. Had they done so they would have written their names as Sunder Kaur and Sahib Kaur. Does it mean that what Sanatan Sikhs of Amritsar Singh Sabha were writing is true that at the time of tenth Guru ji or till Singh Sabhas period females were not given Khande da Amrit. Hence, logically, females without Having taken Khande da Amrit could not partcipate in adminitering Pahul. However now that there is no such restriction in SRM for females to receive Khande DI Pahul, there should be no ban to be a panj piari. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 What you have written is wrong. In Sri sarbloh Granth guru Ji does not always call himself gobind Singh. Bhai nand lal Singh is sometimes referred to as bhai nand lal even though he has taken Amrit. Why would the gurus not give his own wives amrit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Please excuse my ignorance. There are several hukamnamas available written by Mata Sundari and mata Sahib Devan ji written during second decade of eighteenth century more than fifteen years after tenth Guruji passed away. Still they wrote their names Sundari and Sahib Devi. Apparently they had not taken Khande di Pahul. Had they done so they would have written their names as Sunder Kaur and Sahib Kaur. Does it mean that what Sanatan Sikhs of Amritsar Singh Sabha were writing is true that at the time of tenth Guru ji or till Singh Sabhas period females were not given Khande da Amrit. Hence, logically, females without Having taken Khande da Amrit could not partcipate in adminitering Pahul. However now that there is no such restriction in SRM for females to receive Khande DI Pahul, there should be no ban to be a panj piari. Good post, although there is one point I would like to add, the Namdhari Sikhs are the ones who we definitely know of who gave Amrit to both genders, this was not an invention of the Singh Sabha, so the Amritsar Singh Sabha were wrong about this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Please excuse my ignorance. There are several hukamnamas available written by Mata Sundari and mata Sahib Devan ji written during second decade of eighteenth century more than fifteen years after tenth Guruji passed away. Still they wrote their names Sundari and Sahib Devi. Apparently they had not taken Khande di Pahul. Had they done so they would have written their names as Sunder Kaur and Sahib Kaur. Does it mean that what Sanatan Sikhs of Amritsar Singh Sabha were writing is true that at the time of tenth Guru ji or till Singh Sabhas period females were not given Khande da Amrit. Hence, logically, females without Having taken Khande da Amrit could not partcipate in adminitering Pahul. However now that there is no such restriction in SRM for females to receive Khande DI Pahul, there should be no ban to be a panj piari. agreed , khande di pahul is for singhs only , what whole panth latter accepted was kirpan da amrit for maiyan because certain singhs will not take food from non amritdhari . also kaur is not a female word. its refered to as second son of king. and the word for amritdhari maiyan is , kshatrani Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anandpuria Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Chatanga 1 ji I do agree that it was the Namadhari Baba Ram Singh ji who was the first to give Khande di Pahul to females. He, however, did not ask the initiated females to append 'Kaur' epithet to their first names. Their names we can see in letters Baba Ram Singh wrote to them from exile in Burma given in 'Kookian di Vithiya' by historian Ganda Singh. The names in letters are 'Juali', Uttami, Hukami ( a Namdhari official of 'Suba' rank), Chando, and Gurdei were female preachers, Sukkhan, Bhagan, Hukman, Sahibo, and Upma were other females whom letters weer written. Nanda, Rupa, Boli, were other females mentioned. Jassan ji was his mother and Ram Dei his daughter. Singh Sabha Bhasaur Panch Khalsa Diwan in their writings also claim that it was they who began Khande di Pahul for females for the first time ignoring the role of Namdharis. However, they can be credited for not just Khande di Pahul for the females but also in addition giving 'Kaur' second name to females. In earlier history we do not find any categorical assertion that females be given Khnde di Pahul and given second name 'Kaur'. Although we do see 'Kaur' Sikh females, it is only among females of ruling families that makes one feel that 'Kaur' second name was more of a status symbol rather than a religious requirement. In Sikh history we find that when Sikhs were politically struggling, or hadn't become sovereign rulers, females in the family were rarely 'Kaur'. Eg. 'Fatto' wife of Ala Singh, Bibi Padhan, daughter of Ala Singh, Rajindran, grand daughter of Ala Singh. didn't have 'Kaur' name while males all took Khande di Pahul from Dal Khalsa staying at Thikriwala near Barnala. Similar situation we find in several other families. The first female to be given 'Kaur' name in Patiala ruling house was Sahib Kaur born during second half of the eighteenth century when this royal family had become sovereign after the fear of Abdali was gone in 1760s. Sikh females with Kaur are seen in history mostly from second half of eighteenth century. We do not find any Kaur earlier. Although we do see sehajdhari Khatris do have Kaur females as well as Kaur males continuing their pre 1699 tradition. Among decendents of Baba Buddha ji of Ramdas was Ram Kanwar later baptised by tenth Guruji as Gurbakhash Singh. He had threee wives who were without any Kaur epithet. His son Mohr Singh was married to Bibi Pardhan daughter of Ala Singh. He married another lady named Deso. Both these females had no 'Kaur' second name despite being highly respected as descendents of Baba Buddha ji and close to tenth Guruji. In any case we have the example of Guru Mahals. Mata Jito ji being around the 1699 Baisakhi event there is no indication that she was given name with a 'Kaur' second name. Neither did Mata Sundari nor Mata Sahib Devan. savinderpalsingh ji I also believe that at quite an early stage it had been agreed that females be given an alternative form of Amrit such as Kirpan da Amrit. Edited November 13, 2014 by Anandpuria 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Where does that leave us today? Was khande Amrit originally an precursor to a formal military realignment of Sikhs (for obvious reasons), that was aimed at men? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 here's the maryada prabodh by baba joginder singh ji exjathedar sri hazur sahib http://www.amritworld.com/pbi/commentary/hazooree_maryada/article_kirpan_da_amrit.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Please explain mata bhag kaur for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 mata bhag kaur is new name, older one is mai bhago 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 agreed , khande di pahul is for singhs only , what whole panth latter accepted was kirpan da amrit for maiyan because certain singhs will not take food from non amritdhari . also kaur is not a female word. its refered to as second son of king. and the word for amritdhari maiyan is , kshatrani Why would our guru discriminate? Is he sexist? Just because the nihang dals do a certain thing does not make it automatically right. Was mata bhag kaur amritdhari or no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 mata bhag kaur is new name, older one is mai bhago Guru Ji da nam pehlo gobind rai si. When he took Amrit his new name was gobind Singh. Obviously it changed veer Ji! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) ofcourse Guru Gobind Rai , became Guru Gobind Singh but maiyan never changed their name , Kaur doesnt refer to as female princess or anything 1st son of king is called tikka sahib tikka because he will get tikka to rule 2nd one is called kora because he is kora from raaj and cannot rule, but has rights of property hence Kaur . thats why mata sahib deva ji's gurudwara in nanded has name "mata sahib deva ji" not mata sahib kaur ji Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Guru Ji da nam pehlo gobind rai si. When he took Amrit his new name was gobind Singh. Obviously it changed veer Ji! I think he is saying that Mai Bhago was the name she was known as until recently when it was changed to Mata Bhag Kaur - the suggestion being that the name was changed to bring it inline with post-annexation introduced conventions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Why would our guru who is jot of guru Nanak be sexist? Savinderpal veer Ji respects DDT as a Puritan samprada. In DDT it is mandatory for both Singh and Singhni to take Amrit. Do you think they started introducing this later on or was it from the beginning? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 maryada was changed in DDT by sant sundar singh ji khalsa before that it was different , i read it somewhere , he did this to unify and give one simple maryada 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 maryada was changed in DDT by sant sundar singh ji khalsa before that it was different , i read it somewhere , he did this to unify and give one simple maryada In some places you said that the DDT maryada came from guru Ji himself. I have read many things as we'll but it does not mean it is true. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 DDT maryada came from Guru sahib no doubt, but sundar singh ji modified it a little i guess the theory here might be the old portions related to this thread are intact, including pati wrata dharam but the changes might be in amrit for maiyan because as far as the Maryada in nihang dal, they do not give amrit to maiyan . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 but the changes might be in amrit for maiyan because as far as the Maryada in nihang dal, they do not give amrit to maiyan .The bidi chand dal do. I know cause they are sorta related to me. In my opinion everybody should have a chance to take Amrit and not excluded. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 did they start that maryada recently? because when i read old rehatnama by bhai chaupa singh ji, its restricted there and it all makes sense where "Singh" is mentioned not any bibi . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Not that I know of. My brother in law and his whole family including his mother took Amrit there. Please post the rehitnama here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Would guru Ji let a mazbhi or a tarkhan to take Amrit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 cast was not an issue, http://www.amritworld.com/main/?p=129#sthash.SUVzA0nL.dpbs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 So whats rehat maryada for kirpan da amrit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh1800 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Katha by sant jarnail singh on who is eligible to take amrit. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale explains why women have to take khanda da amrit http://youtu.be/x8h666xRyiY 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savinderpalsingh Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 So whats rehat maryada for kirpan da amrit? http://www.amritworld.com/pbi/commentary/hazooree_maryada/article_kirpan_da_amrit.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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