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For me this question is hard to answer and I have heard alot of explanation on what people think, but one of the most convincing answers I got was from Sant Jarnail SIngh ji Khalsa. His answer was so simple and straight forward.

Well here is the video and it would be great if members here would give there thoughts on what Sant ji is saying and whether women should be allowed in the Panj Pyare.

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Please listen to this video. The name given to females, that is Kaur, itself proves that they have not been given the authority to become part of the Panj Pyare.   @Soulfinder

Three oldest copies of Chaupa Singh Rahitnama that HW McLeod says existed before 1984 were one in Sikh Reference Library, another one in Guru Nanak Dev University, and the third one at Khalsa College

The SRM maryada does not uphold either view as binding on the Panth. If one wishes to follow the SRM then they should with honest intention, and as yourself who follows the akj rehat, so should you wi

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For me this question is hard to answer and I have heard alot of explanation on what people think, but one of the most convincing answers I got was from Sant Jarnail SIngh ji Khalsa. His answer was so simple and straight forward.

Well here is the video and it would be great if members here would give there thoughts on what Sant ji is saying and whether women should be allowed in the Panj Pyare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f2geLOKzTE

waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

it is really a hard question to answer i think so but with so many question;

1. was there any women in the congregation at that time?

waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

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Here is my view probably little controversial. I think from panthic maryada point of view- men are only allowed in panj pyares just to keep the maryada of amrit sanchar held in 1699.

But from adhyatam aspect, if bibi has reached bhramgyan- i don't see why she cannot give amrit to others in form of panj pyares. There is no black and white rule there. It all comes down to avastha of an individual. Breaking maryada is discouraged because to keep joe blow sikhs like us in intact and discipline. But if an female bhramgyani or soceity of sant mandali sees this issue from bhramgyan perspective not from maryada perspective, this is non issue. So there is no clear cut answer to this. To make it less confusing, lets just put this in context- there are certain maryada or issues in the panth does not apply to the individuals who have reached bhramgyan.

At the end, once we start debating which maryada is correct on this issue- taksal, rara sahib, sgpc. We are really beating an dead horse here..shouldn't be concentrating on this issue too much..at the end, bhramgyan, bhramgyanis are above gender because they are merged in with nirgun paratama.

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Here is my view probably little controversial. I think from panthic maryada point of view- men are only allowed in panj pyares just to keep the maryada of amrit sanchar held in 1699.

But from adhyatam aspect, if bibi has reached bhramgyan- i don't see why she cannot give amrit to others in form of panj pyares. There is no black and white rule there. It all comes down to avastha of an individual. Breaking maryada is discouraged because to keep joe blow sikhs like us in intact and discipline. But if an female bhramgyani or soceity of sant mandali sees this issue from bhramgyan perspective not from maryada perspective, this is non issue. So there is no clear cut answer to this. To make it less confusing, lets just put this in context- there are certain maryada or issues in the panth does not apply to the individuals who have reached bhramgyan.

At the end, once we start debating which maryada is correct on this issue- taksal, rara sahib, sgpc. We are really beating an dead horse here..shouldn't be concentrating on this issue too much..at the end, bhramgyan, bhramgyanis are above gender because they are merged in with nirgun paratama.

Have you spoken with Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale about this issue? I recall him telling the sangat the reasons that Panj Piaray had to be men (similar to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale's given in the clip above), and also advising that the Singhs in the Panj Piaray needed to be healthy in body (he gave example of why a Singh with a missing limb should not be in the Panj Piaray) as well as in his Sikhi.

My personal opinion is that maryada should not be altered by anyone, brahmgyani or not, if it is Guru given. I also feel that since Khande Ki Pahul was initially a warrior's initiation and given first by 5 Sikhs in male human form, it should always be administered by 5 Sikhs in male human form who have health, strength, and at least some understanding of shastar puja/vidya.

Yes, brahmgyanis are beyond gender in spiritual avastha but their physical roop has a gender, and an energy based on this gender, which is represented and passed on by them during amrit sanchar.

K.

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Have you spoken with Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale about this issue? I recall him telling the sangat the reasons that Panj Piaray had to be men (similar to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale's given in the clip above), and also advising that the Singhs in the Panj Piaray needed to be healthy in body (he gave example of why a Singh with a missing limb should not be in the Panj Piaray) as well as in his Sikhi.

My personal opinion is that maryada should not be altered by anyone, brahmgyani or not, if it is Guru given. I also feel that since Khande Ki Pahul was initially a warrior's initiation and given first by 5 Sikhs in male human form, it should always be administered by 5 Sikhs in male human form who have health, strength, and at least some understanding of shastar puja/vidya.

Yes, brahmgyanis are beyond gender in spiritual avastha but their physical roop has a gender, and an energy based on this gender, which is represented and passed on by them during amrit sanchar.

K.

I second this and we can't ignore the fact Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, also kept gender separate by giving Singh to the male and Kaur to the female. Brahmgyanis are no exception here either, they are still in that physical form as male or woman. It's like we can't ignore the fact the Ten Gurus took the form as male. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji had no problem distuigishing from male and female and neither should his Sikh.

Also let's not forget, there were Brahmgyani woman around at the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's, but Guru Sahib never, put in a woman himself.

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I am afraid this was to going open another can of worms. Let me rephrase, one shouldn't edit khanda batta da amrit maryada actual sanskar amrit. What about inner amrit which is inside all of us but hidden but requires just an updesh or naam jugti from mahapursh to awake it, is gender relevant in this matter?. As you correctly pointed out khanda batta da amrit was initially warrior initiation. Here are the few questions,

1.How does nirmale/sevapanthis get initiated? Depends on historical references, as well depending who you talk to. Nirmal sikh panth is quite diverse, you will find lots of different answers based on each spiritual sub orders within nirmal panth. But technicalities is irrelevant in many spiritual orders, because more emphasis is placed on - milaap between atma and paratma.

2. Does nirmal mandali care if mahant is male or female upon initiating their shish into nirmale sikh panth? Keeping male ego issue of mahant gaddi aside but when it comes to avastha, they probably don't care - nirmale- mystic order of sikh panth starts from 2nd level of amrit naam amrit, don't put too much emphasis on sanskar amrit. But that does not mean they didn't go through sanskar amrit just sanskar amrit(outer intiations) varies.

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Few other scenarios to ponder, if this issue of panj pyares seva is black and white as it seems.

One live in very rural area, where hardly any sikhs. There is lot of sharda in students wanted to take amrit. There are four male naam abhyasi sikhs and one female naam abhyasi singhani.

Do these four male naam abhyaasi sikhs tyaag an amazing seva of intitating of new abhlikhes to the sikh panth just because they are missing one "male" gursikh? or do they just include an bibi amritdhari singhani as 5th pyares perform an amrit sanchar as an exception? replace bibi with handicap naam abhyaasi gursikh?.

Lot of people have taken mahapursh words to extreme, i believe this is what happened in this case. People don't really bother going to depth. I haven't discussed this question with sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale. But i am sure if this topic discussed in depth, having female administer amrit would be non-issue.I will do so this time and correct my take on this subject accordingly after taking to sant ji.

I also beleive kalyug veer, it appears you want to use sant ji opnions whenever it suits your ideology. What about following sant ji updesh on status of sargun vahiguroo and its upasana, status of ram, krishna in avtarvad?

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Neo Singh,

Deep questions, veer ji, and some complex hypothetical situations. Hopefully, someone who has answers to them will reply.

Firstly, I mentioned Sant Jagjit Singh mostly because I know you are a student of his and I was interested to learn if he had gone into it more in depth with you. I would be grateful if you would raise this question with him when next you see him.

My own opinion was given above separately along with my reasoning. My basic stance is that there should be no change in panthic maryada by anyone of any avastha when it affects the lives of others who do not have brahmgyani avastha - I don't have a problem with someone of that avastha choosing not to follow Khalsa rehat if they are a mast by nature. I don't believe anyone of any avastha has any right to change maryadas that were in put in place by the Guru ji Himself.

I don't think there is any problem with the other form of amrit that one gets in Nirmal/Udasi/Sevapanthi panth being administered by male or female since they have more to do with brahmgyaan alone and little to do with the shastardhari soorbir side of Sikhi. I believe they are just as valid as Khalsa amrit sanchaar for those who want to follow that path.

Now, on a more personal note, I don't accept uncritically everything that is said by every Sant. For example, I disagree with Sant Ji's views on jhatka, sukhnidhaan, shikaar and a few other things because they are contrary to Sikh history and writings, though I appreciate that he has his own reasons for his strict injunctions against things like meat because of his Saadh background.

I'd appreciate it if you would PM me in future if you take issue with the stance that I take on topics unrelated to the OPs initial question. Otherwise, the thread is likely to end up as messy and disconnected as some others on this forum recently. :D

Regards to you and yours,

K.

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Khalsa ji,

If we say that there was no woman in first Five Beloved, so there should not be any woman in Five Beloved, there was no white or black guy either. Many communities were missing there. Option to surrender head did not close on Vaisakhi 1699. Dharam yudh (spiritual and temporal) is always on.

There were five Sikhs ( and Sikh could be any human being, physically tyar bar tyar, armed and spiritually qualified as said by Bhagat Kabair on Ang 655). It does not matter Sikh is a woman or man.

Waheguru.

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I'd appreciate it if you would PM me in future if you take issue with the stance that I take on topics unrelated to the OPs initial question. Otherwise, the thread is likely to end up as messy and disconnected as some others on this forum recently

My apologies. will do in future. :D

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Khalsa ji,

If we say that there was no woman in first Five Beloved, so there should not be any woman in Five Beloved, there was no white or black guy either. Many communities were missing there. Option to surrender head did not close on Vaisakhi 1699. Dharam yudh (spiritual and temporal) is always on.

There were five Sikhs ( and Sikh could be any human being, physically tyar bar tyar, armed and spiritually qualified as said by Bhagat Kabair on Ang 655). It does not matter Sikh is a woman or man.

Waheguru.

This is the common mistake people make when presenting this no white and black enthicty reason. When you get into blacks and whites or yellow and light browns then you are taking a black man and a brown man and discriminationg based on color. This would be a problem because it is going back to the caste system.

When you look at Guru Sahib decision that day, you can see Guru Sahib gave the sangat two last names. Singh and Kaur. Men and women were given different names. This clearly shows Guru Sahib new men and women are different from each other, if it's not the case then he would have given both genders one last name. Even though the soul does not have a gender Guru Sahib still gave gender names Singh and Kaur to us. We have to respect this decision and follow the Marayda he gave us.

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Few other scenarios to ponder, if this issue of panj pyares seva is black and white as it seems.

One live in very rural area, where hardly any sikhs. There is lot of sharda in students wanted to take amrit. There are four male naam abhyasi sikhs and one female naam abhyasi singhani.

Do these four male naam abhyaasi sikhs tyaag an amazing seva of intitating of new abhlikhes to the sikh panth just because they are missing one "male" gursikh? or do they just include an bibi amritdhari singhani as 5th pyares perform an amrit sanchar as an exception? replace bibi with handicap naam abhyaasi gursikh?.

It wouldn't be difficult to fly one Singh in. You probably can bring up even more if ups, but I believe they become irrevelant, since Sikhs are stricted on following Guru Sahib to the last letter.

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I am afraid this was to going open another can of worms. Let me rephrase, one shouldn't edit khanda batta da amrit maryada actual sanskar amrit. What about inner amrit which is inside all of us but hidden but requires just an updesh or naam jugti from mahapursh to awake it, is gender relevant in this matter?. As you correctly pointed out khanda batta da amrit was initially warrior initiation. Here are the few questions,

1.How does nirmale/sevapanthis get initiated? Depends on historical references, as well depending who you talk to. Nirmal sikh panth is quite diverse, you will find lots of different answers based on each spiritual sub orders within nirmal panth. But technicalities is irrelevant in many spiritual orders, because more emphasis is placed on - milaap between atma and paratma.

2. Does nirmal mandali care if mahant is male or female upon initiating their shish into nirmale sikh panth? Keeping male ego issue of mahant gaddi aside but when it comes to avastha, they probably don't care - nirmale- mystic order of sikh panth starts from 2nd level of amrit naam amrit, don't put too much emphasis on sanskar amrit. But that does not mean they didn't go through sanskar amrit just sanskar amrit(outer intiations) varies.

Singh, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji told us to take Amrit from the Punj Pyare and prescribed a certain way then why does it matter if a different Panth is doing something else. The Khalsa Panth will follow Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.

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It wouldn't be difficult to fly one Singh in. You probably can bring up even more if ups, but I believe they become irrevelant, since Sikhs are stricted on following Guru Sahib to the last letter.

There are no ifs its pretty clear cut, maryada is relative to one as their surti travel towards akaal purkh. Even in social life, rules that applies to kinder garden student does not apply to college, university students!!!!.

I consider myself kinder garden student, makes every attempt to follow maryada. But i wouldn't use same maryada googles to judge person with bhramgyan. If you want dispute that for sake of disputing, there are plenty of sakhiyas on this forum, specifally under japji sahib thread where sant or sants you look up to have broken shackles of maryada they stayed in and made shariapanthis with black and white thinking highly uncomfortable and dis-pleased. After all, in their mind its chelas who represent the sants, not bhramgyan.

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There are no ifs its pretty clear cut, maryada is relative to one as their surti travel towards akaal purkh. Even in social life, rules that applies to kinder garden student does not apply to college, university students!!!!.

I consider myself kinder garden student, makes every attempt to follow maryada. But i wouldn't use same maryada googles to judge person with bhramgyan. If you want dispute that for sake of disputing, there are plenty of sakhiyas on this forum, specifally under japji sahib thread where sant or sants you look up to have broken shackles of maryada they stayed in and made shariapanthis with black and white thinking highly uncomfortable and dis-pleased. After all, in their mind its chelas who represent the sants, not bhramgyan.

The thing about Sants, which I believe you would agree with me here is that the True Sant would not go against or change Guru Sahibs Hukams like Amrit Sankar. The disciple doesn't become brighter than Guru Sahib no matter their state. Even Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji took Amrit the same way he administered it to the Punj Pyare. I believe this speaks volumes and the depth of this has to be understood. And then the fact that no woman even afterwards was put in the Punj Pyare.

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Singh, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji told us to take Amrit from the Punj Pyare and prescribed a certain way then why does it matter if a different Panth is doing something else. The Khalsa Panth will follow Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.

Off course, officially sanskar amrit is khanda batta da amrit-outer layer, but most importantly inner layer still remains naam amrit. Look i m not saying outer layers is not important. I believe more emphasis is being put on outer layer amrit that inner layers of amrit- naam, bhramgyan its totally being overlooked. This thread is classic example, we are talking about if female can partake in panj pyares duties?

Fine, lets keep it original, lets just say males are only allowed to administer khanda da amrit for sake of maintaining 1699 amrit sanchar. Its a fact, all panj pyares were bhramgyanis not just on the path but pooran bhramgyanis, how come panj pyares these days have no jeevan let alone having that level of avastha? Hows that for being original? does not this break the maryada? someone asks, whoooa, are you saying only bhramgyanis can administer amrit? you have any idea how populatation of sikhs will be decline? hard to find one single pooran bhramgyanis let alone 5 these days across the globe? So what we do? We bent the rules, let any joe blow administer amrit to keep the population? Good decision? sikh in population wise? good but jeevan wise? all sort of mindsets are born from this- shariapanthis, katarpanthis, malech people like- afghana group, saaps, fake sants, gyani, committe members masand type people all around.

If rules can be bent on lineancy of jevan of panj pyares, why can't rules be bent on exceptional circumstances like above which is non issue on high level?

Its fine and dandy to quickly interview of sant mahapursh without going into deeper context, circumstances. Cheelas are big stigma to known mahapursh names, they are cause for flame wars- my jatha is better than yours sissy attitude.

Oh by the way, just for the record.In sikhi, different panth as you mentioned are pretty much part of wider khalsa panth. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji dressing in sadhu bana-historical event and gave blessing to other mystical orders of panth ie- nirmal, sevapanthis make sri guru gobind singh ji belongs to whole world, not to just tunnel vision mindset.

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The thing about Sants, which I believe you would agree with me here is that the True Sant would not go against or change Guru Sahibs Hukams like Amrit Sankar. The disciple doesn't become brighter than Guru Sahib no matter their state. Even Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji took Amrit the same way he administered it to the Punj Pyare. I believe this speaks volumes and the depth of this has to be understood. And then the fact that no woman even afterwards was put in the Punj Pyare.

I am not disagreeing with you. I am not talking about just sanskar amrit but inner levels of amrit. Read my post above, it should be clear now.

There are lot of exceptions in maryada whether you like to admit it or not everyday, which is good because we are not sharia wahabi sullehs. Everyday there is an exception, singhs takes siri sahib off to take plane to singhani hairs being shaved in the delivery room to taking kachera off in time of bhog with your mrs to giving your jhoota food to homeless to our siri sahib touching our arse upon wiping your arse with an tissue. I can write an whole book on exceptions of maryada. Its perfectable normal, because there is a limit to those exceptions and kurahits in maryada are the limits. Those who fill up guilt in people's mind on small things/exceptions are themselves in sharia khand and will live and die in there just how karam kandis pandits live and die in dubta and throwing guilt trips at people to gain recruits or gain credibility.

I would suggest singh, do abhyaas of sri akaal ustat, you will see your surti rising from all this into realm of anand, free from karam kaand to even outer being of sikh which you are already to total inner being of not just sikh an label but one source of creation- atma-paratma.

If one sees all this from atma-paratma- all this is tamasha and block to get to akaal purkh.

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Off course, officially sanskar amrit is khanda batta da amrit-outer layer, but most importantly inner layer still remains naam amrit. Look i m not saying outer layers is not important. I believe more emphasis is being put on outer layer amrit that inner layers of amrit- naam, bhramgyan its totally being overlooked. This thread is classic example, we are talking about if female can partake in panj pyares duties?

Fine, lets keep it original, lets just say males are only allowed to administer khanda da amrit for sake of maintaining 1699 amrit sanchar. Its a fact, all panj pyares were bhramgyanis not just on the path but pooran bhramgyanis, how come panj pyares these days have no jeevan let alone having that level of avastha? Hows that for being original? does not this break the maryada? someone asks, whoooa, are you saying only bhramgyanis can administer amrit? you have any idea how populatation of sikhs will be decline? hard to find one single pooran bhramgyanis let alone 5 these days across the globe? So what we do? We bent the rules, let any joe blow administer amrit to keep the population? Good decision? sikh in population wise? good but jeevan wise? all sort of mindsets are born from this- shariapanthis, katarpanthis, malech people like- afghana group, saaps, fake sants, gyani, committe members masand type people all around.

If rules can be bent on lineancy of jevan of panj pyares, why can't rules be bent on exceptional circumstances like above which is non issue on high level?

Singh, you bring up a great point, but one wrong does not make another wrong right. Look at the state of the Khalsa Panth. It's because of us not following Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji that we break and fall. If Maryada is followed then there is no problem.

Its fine and dandy to quickly interview of sant mahapursh without going into deeper context, circumstances. Cheelas are big stigma to known mahapursh names, they are cause for flame wars- my jatha is better than yours sissy attitude.

Jatha battle, lets leave this alone.

Oh by the way, just for the record.In sikhi, different panth as you mentioned are pretty much part of wider khalsa panth. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji dressing in sadhu bana-historical event and gave blessing to other mystical orders of panth ie- nirmal, sevapanthis make sri guru gobind singh ji belongs to whole world, not to just tunnel vision mindset.

Did Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji give these guys different intructions on how to take Amrit?

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I am not disagreeing with you. I am not talking about just sanskar amrit but inner levels of amrit. Read my post above, it should be clear now.

There are lot of exceptions in maryada whether you like to admit it or not everyday, which is good because we are not sharia wahabi sullehs.

Maryada is the same, it is the persons fault for not following it. We know the results of not following Maryada, I don't have to spell them out here.

Everyday there is an exception, singhs takes siri sahib off to take plane to singhani hairs being shaved in the delivery room to taking kachera off in time of bhog with your mrs to giving your jhoota food to homeless to our siri sahib touching our arse upon wiping your arse with an tissue. I can write an whole book on exceptions of maryada. Its perfectable normal, because there is a limit to those exceptions and kurahits in maryada are the limits. Those who fill up guilt in people's mind on small things/exceptions are themselves in sharia khand and will live and die in there just how karam kandis pandits live and die in dubta and throwing guilt trips at people to gain recruits or gain credibility.

So whose fault is this? The people who do it. Who said being a Sikh is going to be easy. Singh, your justifying one wrong doing with another. This does not cancel them out. I know you know that, but for the rest it has to be stated.

I would suggest singh, do abhyaas of sri akaal ustat, you will see your surti rising from all this into realm of anand, free from karam kaand to even outer being of sikh which you are already to total inner being of not just sikh an label but one source of creation- atma-paratma.

If one sees all this from atma-paratma- all this is tamasha and block to get to akaal purkh.

Jatha battles and other things along these line is tamasha, but just to end this on a good note, if we as a Panth start following the Maryada left for us then everything will be Anand.

Edited by Only five
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Only five you said:

So whose fault is this? The people who do it. Who said being a Sikh is going to be easy. Singh, your justifying one wrong doing with another. This does not cancel them out. I know you know that, but for the rest it has to be stated

You think these small exceptions are faults or wrong. I clearly don't. Loads of sants, even akaal takth jathedars or takth sahib jathedars who travel abroad don't either that includes sant ranjit singh who at first attempt did try to come abroad in his own jet but later made an exception to taking kirpan off.

I am going to end this discussion this and ask you personal question- have you travel via air before? if yes, you yourself guilty doing one wrong and faulty of this. If thats a case, who are you to shove guilt trips on people who think there can be bibi in the panj pyares and play maryada game card whenever it suits your agenda? For me as i said, small exceptions are okay, because we don't have christian or muslim view of god, as vahiguroo in sikhi is personally not the one who gives wrath to other people because small exceptions are made in daily life, but it must be hell knowing what you going through? one who preaches one of part of maryada is making an exception to another part of maryada.

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The one female Bhramgyani I know told me that only Singhs should do 5 Pyare seva.

I am going to be ass here and make a wild assumption. are we talking about hapur mahapursh? If yes, its same bhramgyani had no problem giving naam and naam jugti to people when she came here in brampton in someone house. So just to prove what i been saying all along in the thread, in the past singhs have done 5 panj pyares di seva when it comes to sanskar amrit(outer layer), when it comes to giving naam amrit (inner amrit) and bhramgyan amrit(main portion of amrit) to students, female bhramgyanis have also taken this seva nd i don't think there is wrong with that. If one wants to debate technicalities of maryada then based on maryada, only panj pyares can give you naam and jugti.

What she said its right. But again as i was saying, its usually the listener don't bother going deep into and talk to them privately about it and discuss all the above scenarios and circumstances and we would rather take their bachans to extreme totally ignoring context it was said in. Anyway people who have issue with it, it appears have a lot to do to stop bibiya doing seva start from 3ho amrit sanchar. I am sure you will put lof of new comers off by it.

At the end, i would like to say- i agree as a general maryada- panj pyares should be all men to keep consistency. But that being said, I wouldn't get alarmed or scream out beadhi if i saw bibi taking part of amrit sanchar and administering it, this issue is same issue as administer amrit in steel batta these days instead of sarbloh , hows that being for being original?. Small exceptions in maryada are ok, off course there are limits and that limit is passing line of kurehits otherwise any joe blow banda can come along and abuse the maryada to suit their own little mat.

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Sorry, I was mislead by the topic title, which is specifically about Panj Pyare. lol.

Just to point out, N30, they also say that Khande Da Pahul is vital - of course, they teach jugti to all, but in essence, real kamayee starts after Amrit.

I think you (or me, lol) have misunderstood the topic - Singh is asking about 5 Pyare di seva, not anything else.

Guru Rakha.

Edited by Matheen
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Perhaps a good place to start would be to take a looksee at all of the puratan histories and hukumnamas and see if they say 5 Singhs or 5 Sikhs should give khande ki pahul.

Then we can decide whether Singh can refer to a female brahmgyani.

Also, my jatha is better than yours. :-D

K.

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