Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?

[Xylitol]

There is a tradition of goat meat langar among Shaktas following jhatka sacrifice for Kali puja and Aghouri Sadhus practice cannibalism. This means something? The traditional practice in every Indian temple excludes onions and garlic. If this was a former Sikh practice and modernly changed, then it does in fact reflect deliberate rejection of tradition of the past.

But as I said before, I could care less about debating onions.

WRONG.

garlic is banned from langer by rahit b/c it is heavily kaam promoting. See Gyani Thakur Singh's katha on rahit. Sikhs now use garlic in langar simply b/c they are addicted to taste. They care little about rahit. Harjas Kaur, not everything is part of some massive conspiracy. The golden temple's langar rahit was changed recently, I've heard to accomodate some none-Sikh (but just "born sikh") actress's desire to do seva. Last time I went people were peeling mountains of garlic.

[laalsingh]

And Why oh why is that article linked here, to this debate if not further evidence of your incredibly distorted HATRED and misunderstanding of Hindu religion?

I never commented anything. I am just quoting. I don't hate hindus or anybody. We are debating here about your misunderstanding of Sikh religion. If you understand sikhi of Guru Nanak, you won't change your faith just because you felt something visiting a Saint . If you believe in Guru, you don't need anybody else. You signature says it well. For Sikh, The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. You don't need to go to other mais or demi gods.

For purposes of clarity in this discussion: Hinduism is too many sects to count, but generally agrees on Sruti as being primary. Hinduism includes the truths of that Sruti which reflect the eternal Dharm, AS WELL AS all the legalistic innovations good and bad which make for a religion. Hinduism can be criticized. But Sanatana Dharma cannot. So I'm trying to make a distinction between the man-made parts of religion versus the pure truths of spirituality.

Harjas ji, pure truths of spirituality are in every major religion. It is not sole proprietorship of Hinduism or Sanatan Dharama or Sikhism. That is the reason writings of Muslim faqirs are there alongwith Vaishnav saints (which your RSS brother does not like and would love to delete).

By the way, why you only qoute Gurbani where vedas are mentioned or Hindu terminology is used. Shabads from Muslim Saints and from Gurus with Islamic tone are totally invisible to you. Your version of pure truths of spirituality contain only Hindu/Vaishnav names of Lord and Snatam Dharma only.

Why Laalsingh are the opinions of a member of RSS expressed on a Sangh Parivaar forum now propagandistically blasted all over Sikh forums?

And what really is wholesale copy and paste from hindu.net to a Sikh forum?

Truly Hindu's whose beliefs are deliberately distorted are hated and despised by Sikhs and not at all welcome.

No Sikh hates true Hindus, but they don't like misinterpretation from people like you and Tiwari, who come on Sikh forum or Gurudwara and preach that Sikhi is a mere sect of Sanatan Dharam or Harminder Sahib is a Shivalaya.

[laalsingh]

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||

The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||

The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||

The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥

bin gur poorae ghor andhhaar ||1||

Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness.

~SGGS Ji ang 1270

Analyze this vaak: "guramukh naadh baedh beechaar."

The Gurmukh is learning/reflecting on the wise teaching/vichaar which is coming from Naad and Vedas.

Why analyze only one tuk, just because it has word ਵੇਦ in it? Analyze whole Shabad. Being Gurmukh is (same as) Naad (for Yogis) and contemplating Vedas (for Pandits).

ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈਣਾ ਹੀ (ਜੋਗੀਆਂ ਦੇ) ਨਾਦ ਦਾ (ਅਤੇ ਪੰਡਿਤਾਂ ਦੇ) ਵੇਦ ਦਾ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਹੈ।

Most of your post is OK. You just emphasize more on some tuks from here and there in your attempt to prove that sikhi is nothing but Sanatam Dharam.

It is not Vedas, what is being discussed. subject here is 'being Gurmukh'. But you picked a tuk anyway and used it in your argument. Word of God created this universe. Naad is sound current (or frequency) at which universe exists. Maybe Vedas say it. Maybe Bible says it too. But I know Guru says it.

Now be a Gurmukh. Listen what Guru is saying. Don't pick and chose tuks (from SGGS, hindu sites, number of hindu scriptures) to prove your point.

[HarjasDevi]

Xylitol writes:

"If this was a former Sikh practice andmodernly changed, then it does in fact reflect deliberate rejection oftradition of the past."

WRONG.

garlic is banned from langer by rahit b/c it is heavily kaam promoting.See Gyani Thakur Singh's katha on rahit. Sikhs now use garlic in langarsimply b/c they are addicted to taste. They care little about rahit.Harjas Kaur, not everything is part of some massive conspiracy. Thegolden temple's langar rahit was changed recently, I've heard toaccomodate some none-Sikh (but just "born sikh") actress's desire to doseva. Last time I went people were peeling mountains of garlic.

Hmmm. Let's look at it again.

"butwhat is traditional and what was original and what is now beingmodified out of ignorance politically to create more artificialseparations from Hindus which did not formerly exist."

So, you're saying that the Dal Khalsa morcha against every purataan and sanataan sampradaya to protect the Sikh identity, even as it threatens violence; the bid to separate Sikhs from Hindus legally in the Delhi High Court despite being Hindustanis; Debate over Nanakshai Calender or the fact that the thread has been completely derailed by commentary taken from some Sangh Parivaar discussion forum and now propagandistically linked to every Sikh website or derailing ACCUSATIONS that Sanatana Dharma is about ABUSES OF THE CASTE SYSTEM.

"NEW DELHI: A PIL in the Supreme Court said Sikhs wanted to break free from the perception that their religion was intrinsically connected to Hinduism in every activity." Sikhs Petition

But this isn't about Sikhs having a PHOBIA and ABHORRENCE for anything remotely related to sanatan heritage? Interesting. Why then did not a single one of you respond to more intelligent discussion I was trying to post earlier about Sound and Vibration in bani as being related to sanatan philosophical and yoga teachings? Because onions and caste system has more to do with Devi? Or because Devi and the sanatan spirituality of Naam mantra is related to Hindu Dharm and therefore must be attacked as being representative of every evil and silly thing imaginable?

No, it's too stupid to be an actual conspiracy. But it is reflecting a definite hatred, intolerance and demonization of Hinduism and sanatan spiritual philosophy, absolutely. Buddhists have the exact same heritage of coming from sanatan concepts and Dharma teaching. They acknowledge relationship while never despairing their uniqueness and independence or suing Courts or making alterations of purataan rehat or whitewashing murals and denying everything to younger generation to create so much antagonism and abusive intolerance. No one can even talk normally without every other post lapsing into rants totally unrelated to the topic simply to assert Sanatana Dharma teaching is some evil demonic horror of the world that Guruji rescued the world from. And nothing like that is the truth. You aren't even contrasting the Sanatan teachings from the cultural and man-made distorted ones. It would be if like every other sentence where you were describing Sikhism I was comparing it with the very worst excesses and stupidities of the most unenlightened people.

You are all afraid of actual discussion of meaningful points where we could learn and share different philosophical viewpoints. So much that is beautiful and related I would love to share with you. I didn't come to this post to have beautiful philosophical teachings be compared to someone's rant about onions in the langar or distorted abuses of the caste system. We can discuss that ad infinitem. But you all demonize sanatana Dharma as actually being the teaching of the worst excesses and not even being open to see how the original teachings became corrupted and how countless sants tried to reform and address those corruptions.

And you are really foolish if you deny that colonial past of India contributed to institutionalizing a racist caste system largely based on skin color and with admitted alterations and distortions of Manu Smritis to create that as a foundation for Indian Law in place of a Christian Bible so the British legal system could be claimed as coming from Indians themselves. And how long have people suffered under this corrupted, bribery thugism so-called legal system? And are you saying that too is not also large measure responsibility of British? Are you saying that the historic proof of colonized and exploited communities do not bear modern-day scars of the oppressive heritage of the past?

One thing we should reflect on, how much hatred of the rich and intellectual heritage of sanatana Dharma has been distorted to be a source of shame for Indian people all over the world, when at the same time period other nations were raping, pillaging, involved in slave trade? Yet Indian subcontinent is condemned while Western world is glamorized as the beacon of progress. The truth is different. That article from Hindu.net which is opposed, even as the article lifted from Sangh parivaar forum was not opposed said some very important facts which can be cross-verified. That's why I linked it. ot only did it have scriptural quotes, but it had a quote from Ambedkar Ji from his Court statement saying the exact same thing, Vedic tradition has become distorted.

If you can't accept Ambedkar Ji's own word on the subject then what could I ever tell you? I did not deny caste corruption is a big problem. I don't agree with abuses based on caste. I am believing in Mata Amritanandamayi Organization and Ramakrishna Mission, both are huge, well established sampraday which have no exclusion or barrier based on caste. I mean Amma is Herself a great saint from shudra caste. Why are you derailing my discussion with attacks about caste? I already cited to you what I personally believe is the most correct teaching and it comes directly from Gurbani.

Suppose Hindu's began to believe in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji about caste as being Dharmic Truth, which I do, for example. Why would you not encourage that as being a source of transformation of the evils and corruptions of the past? Wy would you prefer to freeze frame all Hindu religions as being only the worst so you can keep your ugly caricature of it? Let me dare say this much as well, since I know it will be another source of ridicule but, you are all talking so boldly about caste in order to invalidate my discussions. But here is the actual reality. I have drunk charan water from Shudra Guru. Would you have done the same?

So, accept, reject, blame, revile, personally I would love to see intelligent discussion and debate instead. But please don't keep derailing over point about caste system. It's just ridiculous. I have drunk both Khande ki pahul amrit from shared bata and foot wash from Shudra caste Guru. So please, you can trash me as anything you like. But you cannot trash me as a representative of abuses of caste system or believing in prejudices. Thank you.

[laalsingh]

..

Edited January 26, 2010 by laalsingh

[Kaljug]

blah blah

Yes, that's right. We are disagreeing with you because we hate Hindus. It has nothing to do with the fact that your arguments are pathetic and your views are based on the most flimsy fifth rate information.

Yes, we also hold you personally responsible for caste prejudice. That's what it is.

It has nothing to do with the fact that you are basically nothing but a conspiracy theorist who sees invisible people rewriting texts when they disagree with your personal delusions about what Sikhi is.

And yes, I recall you asking your Hindu friends on the hindudharam.com forums whether Sikhs had purposely altered the first word of our Guru from Ek Omkar to Ek Oankar because we hate Hindus so much.

For all your whinining and accusations about how much we hate Hindus, it is pretty clear it is YOU who hold such a low opinion of Sikhs that you think we would alter our very Guru Himself out of spite, and we would purposely misinterpret our Guru's writings and thereby ensure our own destruction because we hate Hindus so much.

K.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Kaljug

[HarjasDevi]

So you are saying their is no alteration or deliberate de-emphasis of sanatan philosophical concepts in Gurbani?

Is that why Jog doesn't really mean Jog? Why Krishan, Ramachandra, Gopal, Govind, Murali, Mukunda, the Lord of Lakshmi, the savior of Dropadi all only mean NIRGUNA?

Just like Ekonkar doesn't mean the Pranava even as the Ek Akshara Shabad Brahman is vibrating from the Primal Nada. Okay.

[HarjasDevi]

We are disagreeing with you because we hate Hindus. It has nothing todo with the fact that your arguments are pathetic and your views arebased on the most flimsy fifth rate information.

Actually I am making an effort in most cases to cite scriptural sources directly and link for others to actually investigate themselves. Not only that but I am speaking from personal experience as well. How is this now despised as pathetic and fifth rate sources? And all over philosophical discussions which every other post degenerate into this kind of hostility, asking for bans, telling me to leave or sending PMs alleging Hinduism teaches women are whores?

But that's not anti-Hindu hatred?

[Kaljug]

So you are saying their is no alteration or deliberate de-emphasis of sanatan philosophical concepts in Gurbani?

Is that why Jog doesn't really mean Jog? Why Krishan, Ramachandra, Gopal, Govind, Murali, Mukunda, the Lord of Lakshmi, the savior of Dropadi all only mean NIRGUNA?

How many more times do we have to go over the same ground again until you get it? Sikhs worship the primal power behind all of these forms. Why do you insist on ignoring, as laalsingh has already pointed out, the Semitic names of God that are mentioned in Gurbani? Do you think Allah in Gurbani refers to the tyrant in the Quran who endorses the keeping of women as sexual captives or the murder of non-Muslims?

Sikhi, like any religion, reinterpreted words that were currently in existence at the time. Read Trilochan Singh's Sikhism and 6 Hindu Systems which goes into depth on this issue by investigating Bhai Gurdas Ji's criticism of the 6 darshanas of Hindu philosophy.

You are the mirror image of Bahadur Ali, the Shia fool who thought that Sikhi was a school of his cult because of the mentions of Allah, Rahim, and so on, and because of the similarities in ideas between Sufi interpretations of the nature of Allah.

For all the accusations of us being narrow minded, it if you who are the one who is completely blind to that part of Gurbani that does not fit into the tiny and strange box in which you try to limit Gurbani.

Just like Ekonkar doesn't mean the Pranava even as the Ek Akshara Shabad Brahman is vibrating from the Primal Nada. Okay.

Listen to Giani Thakur Singh's katha on Jap Ji Sahib in which he talks about Sidh Gosht and describes in detail why it is Ek Oankar and not Om. There is even an English translation done by our very own Neo Singh somewhere on the web.

K.

[Kaljug]

Actually I am making an effort in most cases to cite scriptural sources directly and link for others to actually investigate themselves. Not only that but I am speaking from personal experience as well. How is this now despised as pathetic and fifth rate sources?

Did you just not cite a single page website on udasis by an unknown author as some kind of evidence of what Udasis are? What is that if not shoddy scholarship?

But that's not anti-Hindu hatred?

No, that's people getting tired of wading through those gigantic essays that you call posts in response to their questions and then learning that you have completely ignored their questions and the tuks that have been provided that contradict your views and just posted more of the same.

And by the way, Akaal_Das may be an idiot, but don't accuse him of alleging that Hinduism teaches that women are whores - he provided a reference from the Manu Smrti that describes just that.

K.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Kaljug

[HarjasDevi]

How many more times do we have to go over the same ground again untilyou get it? Sikhs worship the primal power behind all of these forms.

But so do Hindus. That's what I keep pointing out in Hindu Scriptures. The Sanatan teachings are using the symbolic imagery of devatay and avtaray as well as explaining the unity of the Sarguna with the nirguna while clearly teaching the Absolute Primacy of the Nirgun Primal Power. Why don't YOU get it? Hindu Mat is NOT contradicting Gursikhi. Gursikhi is actually using the same Puranic stories to promote the original Sanatan message.

Why do you insist on ignoring, as laalsingh has already pointed out,the Semitic names of God that are mentioned in Gurbani? Do you thinkAllah in Gurbani refers to the tyrant in the Quran who endorses thekeeping of women as sexual captives or the murder of non-Muslims?

I don't ignore them. I already told you I accept Sufis as part of own heritage of sanatana Dharma, although modernly their bhakti sampradaya has been infiltrated and corrupted by Wahabi exremist views. It is abundantly clear and undeniable that Gurbani is talking about a spiritual unity of True Religion which is based on Love and Justice. HOWEVER, show me ONE, SINGLE ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS CONCEPT IN GURBANI TEACHING THE WAY I CAN SHOW YOU DOZENS OF VEDANTIC CONCEPTS. Because the truth is, while Gurbani respects Islam it does not actually teach anything from it. It is based on yoga of Gurmantra and bhakti sankirtan and obtaining mukti from cycle of reincarnation. What exactly is this ignoring? Ram, Rahim, are what? sargun NAAMS of NIRGUN GOD. Did I ever deny? Why make a false argument about nothing? Talk about weak.

Sikhi, like any religion, reinterpreted words that were currently in existence at the time. Read Trilochan Singh's Sikhism and 6 Hindu Systems which goes into depth on this issue by investigating Bhai Gurdas Ji's criticism of the 6 darshanas of Hindu philosophy.

ENTIRE structure of belief and teachings are based on philosophical concepts which are sanataan. It's not a matter of a few words here and there like the Parsi and Arabic or Islamic terms. I mean seriously, are you denying Gurbani talks about Yuga avataras and Devatay?

You are the mirror image of Bahadur Ali, the Shia fool who thought thatSikhi was a school of his cult because of the mentions of Allah, Rahim,and so on, and because of the similarities in ideas between Sufiinterpretations of the nature of Allah.

Since I have never read one word of this fellow I can't say anything about that. But I'm pretty sure I don't belong to any "cult" as I'm pretty well ostracised by Sikhs. Moreover, my views are not even something new as purataan Sikhi included a very rich and vibrant historical sanataan heritage. Even paintings, sculptures, not to mention shared deep and beautifully wise philosophies. I hardly think the Spanda vibrational mantra teachings are some kind of foolishness, and most definitely shared with Gurbani concepts.

For all the accusations of us being narrow minded, it if you who arethe one who is completely blind to that part of Gurbani that does notfit into the tiny and strange box in which you try to limit Gurbani.

I'm definitely NOT limiting Gurbani. In fact, I believe Gurbani contains so many mystical truths we canot comprehend them all because containing Jyoti Jyot, the infinite resides in those teachings. Neither am I willfully blind to deny or distort the beautiful ancient purataan concepts which clearly are there or hate their symbolic reflections in sanatan Devi, devatay and avtaray.

[HarjasDevi]

Did you just not cite a single page website on udasis by an unknownauthor as some kind of evidence of what Udasis are? What is that if notshoddy scholarship?

It was sufficient to answer that in udasis own words their sampradaya founder is Baba Sri Chand. Did you want a research paper?

No, that's people getting tired of wading through those gigantic essaysthat you call posts in response to their questions and then learningthat you have completely ignored their questions and the tuks that havebeen provided that contradict your views and just posted more of thesame.

First a single page citation is not enough, and now it is too much information. How can I ignore questions deliberately when, once again I am being lambasted on all sides by several posters at once even while I'm trying to have a discussion about Devi and powerful symbolism of Her Sarbloh Shakti and how it relates to vibration of NAAM Gurmantra. This thread is NOT about attack everything Harjas writes and then blame for not responding to every stupid derailment. If you provide tuuks and interpretation which contradicts mine, fine! That is what a discussion is. We are presenting different viewpoints and learning from each other. It is not a boxing match where you attack another viewpoint to trash, invalidate and discredit it and say, "I won!"

Do you really think posting viewpoint of Tat Khalsa ideology is going to make Udasis change their mind? No. Nobody is going to change their mind. I don't expect you all to change your mind. What I'm trying to do is show you another viewpoint than the degraded, hateful and low opinions you have about Sanatana Dharma teaching, and the BROTHERHOOD relationship between the highest spiritual teachings of Sanatana Dharma and Sikhi. Now, how in the world can I show you the Islamic or Sufi views when I am not involved with that Panth or in-depth study their viewpoints?

And by the way, Akaal_Das may be an idiot, but don't accuse him ofalleging that Hinduism teaches that women are whores - he provided areference from the Manu Smrti that describes just that.

Do you really believe that Manu Smriti reference is actually saying Hindu women are whores and that is not a deliberately distorted portrayal of what Manu Smriti is saying in order to CALL HINDU WOMEN WHORES AND MOCK BOTH HINDU'S AND HINDU RELIGION?

Are you really that stupid? Or just pretending because any insult and degrading portrayal of Hindu women is acceptable to you so that you stoop so low as to defend those comments of his? And you call yourself a Sikh of Guru Sahib?

Akaal_das writes:

We Sikhs not ur types belive in one god that is Akal Purkh . He isdoesn't need Brahma , Vishnu and Shiva. Akal is crator is the creatorhe is the preserver and he is destructor. Hindu gods are just like Roman gods MYTH JUST MYTH . Romans have Hercules these Kanjars created Hanuman lol., Khalsa means Hukumraan the ruler born to rule , born to establish its own nation.

Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Said to mughals Mai na inko baaz dehu Baaz Taaj sab inse lehu.

Congress did what Hindus wanted . It was Hindu sponsor genocide . Theserat worshippers dont deserve independence they all shoild be made slavejust what Mughals and Britishers did. HINDUISM is the biggest threat to Sikhi thaks to ur kind. We Dont need ur fake devte or Sanatan bullshit . read below that is called Hinduism is bullshitism.

HINDUISM SAYS WOMEN ARE LIKE WHORES BY NATURE

Hinduism's holy dharmasastra teaches that women are like whores andsluts by nature like the bimbo goddess Indrani (ref. RigVeda 10:86:6.):

[HarjasDevi]

And Why oh why is thatarticle linked here, to this debate if not further evidence of yourincredibly distorted HATRED and misunderstanding of Hindu religion?

I never commented anything. I am just quoting. I don't hate hindus oranybody. We are debating here about your misunderstanding of Sikhreligion.

And some guy's rant about onions in the langar, which personally I care nothing about has something to do with correcting my personal misunderstanding? It had everything to do with a completely unreleated linkage to some RSS guy because you wanted to derail that Sanatan = RSS. Can't you at least be honest with your own deliberate propagandistic misinformation veer ji?

If you understand sikhi of Guru Nanak, you won't change yourfaith just because you felt something visiting a Saint . If you believein Guru, you don't need anybody else. You signature says it well. ForSikh, The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru isPaarvati and Lakhshmi. You don't need to go to other mais or demi gods.

You can believe or blame anything you want. But you are not having a discussion with me about my personal experiences with Devi or what they could mean in a thread derailing about the RSS and onions. And none of you are explaining anything while attacking, derailing, promoting hostility, talk of banning, sending PMs accusing Hindu women as whores, etc. So stop pretending that you all are teaching me the beautiful truths of Gurbani in this discussion. You most definitely are not.

Harjas ji, pure truths of spirituality are in every major religion. Itis not sole proprietorship of Hinduism or Sanatan Dharama or Sikhism.That is the reason writings of Muslim faqirs are there along withVaishnav saints (which your RSS brother does not like and would love todelete).

If you really believed Gurbani teaching, then the RSS are your brothers too. I don't have any problem with Baba Farid bani. Why is yet another totally unrelated issue someone else has become representative of what I personally believe and support? RSS is a political organization. It does not speak for or represent Hindu Dharma even while it is believing in Hindu Dharma. Certainly RSS has good and bad like any other political organization, and perhaps in some things take the extremist view. But that is not my view. That is not representing the "Hindu" view. So what exactly is your problem and why do you think mentioning it is anything more than aother propagandistic way to link what my beliefs and discussion are to RSS? What you are doing is deliberately creating a false associatoin because you can't discuss the points themselves. It's not even a debate. I'm sharing a view point. Can you at least value that without distorting and trashing as someone from RSS latest bugaboo? I have to tell you though veer ji, the Onions thing made me laugh out loud. But it's shameful really what you are negating and how you are negating it. I will do ardas that one day you understand I was not here to convert or hurt sentiments of own Sikhs who I love, but to share that our relationship is not completely trashed to hell. And all you can manage is trash more and more. That's really shameful. My beliefs aren't hurting anybody. It's really sad that Sikhs are so hateful of anything Hindu, at mere mention of relationship it is taken as most derogatory insult. And in truth reflects that Sikhs in general really do have the most trashy and disgusting opinion of Hindus. That has at least been my life experience. And not one of you can deny it.

By the way, why you only qoute Gurbani where vedas are mentioned orHindu terminology is used. Shabads from Muslim Saints and from Guruswith Islamic tone are totally invisible to you. Your version of puretruths of spirituality contain only Hindu/Vaishnav names of Lord andSnatam Dharma only.

I am not a Muslim. How can I speak for Muslim teaching? How am I invalidating Islamic Panth to point out clear relationship between Sikhi and Sanatana Dharma? Show me exactly where in Islamic scripture or hadiths it teaches anything about devatay and das avtaray where it doesn't condemn as pagan and demonic? Don't just make broad claims veer ji. If you believe I am doing an injustice to Islam, please feel free to share with us all using citations we can all cross-verify. It's a discussion forum after all and I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to learn from you that point of view where I have neglected some other philosophical teaching in Gurbani. Because merely citing tuuks which TALK about Thuraks and their religious pracitices is not the same thing as teaching pure truths of spirituality. But I am not denying that every religion has some truths of Pure Spirituality because I already believe that the God is All-pervading and every living being has an atma.

WhyLaalsingh are the opinions of a member of RSS expressed on a SanghParivaar forum now propagandistically blasted all over Sikh forums?

And what really is wholesale copy and paste from hindu.net to a Sikh forum?

It was an article which listed many citations from Hindu scriptures and traditional stories about Rishis to explain that Vedantic teaching about varna system has become utterly corrupted. So it is not fair or right to keep attacking Sanatana Dharma teaching as being equal to those corruptions. So the article was in response to questions and also to your totally off-the-wall thing about onions. I mean why can't we at least have intelligence in discussion? Your article cited some guys opinions totally unrelated to the topic. My article was documented citations anybody can cross-reference that was on-point answering the objections to Sanatana Dharma being evil unrighteousness due to teachings of caste.

Truly Hindu's whose beliefs are deliberately distorted are hated and despised by Sikhs and not at all welcome.

No Sikh hates true Hindus, but they don't like misinterpretation frompeople like you and Tiwari, who come on Sikh forum or Gurudwara andpreach that Sikhi is a mere sect of Sanatan Dharam or Harminder Sahibis a Shivalaya.

Again, your intentions are clear to link me with some extremist message from some RSS guy I never even heard about and his personal opinions about langar. Sanatana Dharma is actually the whole world's original religion, so it's not just putting Sikhs there, except to state that Sikhi has respected and preserved the original DIVINE TRUTHS. Also it is obvious that Sikhs are Hindustanis and come from desi culture and are properly "Hindus' while having own sampradaya. Moreover so much Gurbani contains so much teaching direct from Puranas and Upanishads how can you think it is unrelated?

I never said Harimandir was a Shivalaya. But I respect that is the man's point of view. How does it hurt Harimandir Sahib? It's obvious that Harimandir Sahib is Hari Mandir, and formerly had murthis of Lord Vishnu, Krishna and Chandi Devi. So you may abuse my opinion but you can't erase own sanatan history.

[laalsingh]

You can believe or blame anything you want. But you are not having a discussion with me about my personal experiences with Devi or what they could mean in a thread derailing about the RSS and onions. And none of you are explaining anything while attacking, derailing, promoting hostility, talk of banning, sending PMs accusing Hindu women as whores, etc. So stop pretending that you all are teaching me the beautiful truths of Gurbani in this discussion. You most definitely are not.

Lady, I never called Hindu women whores. I never PM'ed you and will never. I have no intention of teaching you Gurbani. But stop copying and pasting tuks from here and there to prove a point which suits teachings of your new Guru.

[Balbir Singh]

This topic was started by Kaljug. He seems to be exhausted.

[HarjasDevi]

It's an open discussion forum. It's a post about Devi. Why can I not share my own views and opinions? Do you think only accepted interpretation should be yours? And all others should be treated with hostility, personal attacks and banning?

Do you really think in this atmosphere anyone of you is showing some beautiful light of Gurbani teaching to contradict what you disagree with? You aren't even respecter of persons pulling in examples of some RSS people's opinions. You goal is to discredit, disrespect and silence me. But by very nature of this forum is discussion, sharing different views, learning, respecting, tolerating, and being a human community.

What kind of religion is teaching to behave to others as ALL OF YOU ARE DOING? Surely not Guru Nanak Dev Ji panth.

And also you should know, just as Yuga avatars are linked with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, every true Jyot of authentic Satguru, and not only 10 physical swaroops of Guru Sahibaan are all ONE.

[Weedol]

So you may abuse my opinion but you can't erase own sanatan history.

They're almost there already. Can't say I'm bothered really...

Edited January 27, 2010 by Weedol

[navjot2]

guys we're all sikhs at the end of the day we can agree to disagree

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Harjas Kaur Jee!

Thanks for your posts and efforts to teach the readers.

Only true Gurus can teach true learning to Sikhs that also with God's Kirpaa.

Surprisingly Guru's teaching is lost and the business of preachers is flourishing.

One can cheat these people easily not teach. Watch! How successful their preachers are? Since three hundred years they are running a history.

I feel some participants here are a breed of preachers. Their lectures can be downloaded. Do not get surprised when you hear them teaching from ancient scriptures. The problem with you is that you have mentioned the names of those.

I can understand their feelings. No one should raise a finger on them.

So, please cool down. You may cry loud. Maybe it stops them jumping in the well.

You may sing also. Do you know Hari Keertan?

*****

There is sooooo much left for Satsang with Devee. I may continue on other website if Devee also leaves this Forum.

Balbir Singh

[singh2]

Gurbani gives a clear cut message to a sikh what he is to believe in.A sikh is a believer in what their

Gurus have instructed.A sikh should respect belief system of other humnan beings..But for a sikh Gurbani's

message is the only one to follow.We are forbidden to believe in duality.

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.

I have no quarrel with anyone.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥

pandit mulaaN chhaaday do-oo. ||1|| rahaa-o.

I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause||

ਬੁਨਿ ਬੁਨਿ ਆਪ ਆਪੁ ਪਹਿਰਾਵਉ ॥ g

bun bun aap aap pahiraava-o.

I weave and weave, and wear what I weave.

ਜਹ ਨਹੀ ਆਪੁ ਤਹਾ ਹੋਇ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੨॥

jah nahee aap tahaa ho-ay gaava-o. ||2||

Where egotism does not exist, there I sing God's Praises. ||2||

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥

pandit mulaaN jo likh dee-aa.

Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written,

ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥

chhaad chalay ham kachhoo na lee-aa. ||3||

I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3||

ਰਿਦੈ ਇਖਲਾਸੁ ਨਿਰਖਿ ਲੇ ਮੀਰਾ ॥

ridai ikhlaas nirakh lay meeraa.

My heart is pure, and so I have seen the Lord within.

ਆਪੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੪॥੭॥

aap khoj khoj milay kabeeraa. ||4||7||

Searching, searching within the self, Kabeer has met the Lord. ||4||7

SGGS 1158

[laalsingh]

guys we're all sikhs at the end of the day we can agree to disagree

Sikhs? Sikh of Guru Nanak does not go around taking charan pahul from every Amma or Baba or Bebe.

[Baba]

Sikhs? Sikh of Guru Nanak does not go around taking charan pahul from every Amma or Baba or Bebe.

Please leave me out of this please lol

But here is a youtube video by Baba Trilok Singh about if the Khalsa Panth is part of Hindu Dharam

Here is another one by Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale about Sikhs being Hindus

Edited January 27, 2010 by Baba

[HarjasDevi]

Gurbani gives a clear cut message to a sikh what he is to believe in.A sikh is a believer in what their

Gurus have instructed.A sikh should respect belief system of other humnan beings..But for a sikh Gurbani's

message is the only one to follow.We are forbidden to believe in duality.

Are you really quoting Kabir bhagat bani to denounce sanatana Dharma? Are you serious? Kabir was a Vaishnav Ram Naami who had a Hindu Guru. Forbidden to believe in duality? Veer ji you are stuck in it. Only brahmgyaan mahapurash who have Turiya consciousness are freed from duality. And yes, quite clearly bhagat Kabir Ji is discussing duality in the pauri. But the corrective TRUTH of Guruji's gyaan in including Kabir bani hinges on whether or not Sanatana Dharma is the religion of pandits who don't know God or whether it also includes sants and Mahapurush who do know God, such as the author of the bani, Kabir Ji Himself.

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.

I have no quarrel with anyone.

Kabir Ji may have no quarrel with anyone because He has the bramgyaan to love them equally, even as He is spiritually advanced enough to correct the errors of duality consciousness and limitations of their understanding and worship.

But you certainly have a quarrel with Hindus as you seem to think that Hindu people and spirituality is only something evil, corrupt and ugly. This is what you portray. This is what you are constantly criticizing. But does it occur to you that the things which I have been trying to discuss are the Sruti Divine Truths and not the man-made political corruptions? Guruji, Gurbani and least of all a Vaishnav bhagat are not condemning that as you are veer ji. Please reflect what mistake you're making.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥

pandit mulaaN chhaaday do-oo. ||1|| rahaa-o.

I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause||

Did I ever say a pandit or scholarship or priests of any religion were a guide to put faith in? No! Then I have no disagreement with this bani. This bani reflects highest truth. But it is not saying what you are distorting it to say which is a radical rejection of Sanatana Dharma philosophy and spiritual teaching which is all through this bani.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥

pandit mulaaN jo likh dee-aa.

Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written,

ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥

chhaad chalay ham kachhoo na lee-aa. ||3||

I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3||

You see Jio, Sruti isn't the written opinions of men. It is Divine Truth vibrating into sansaar from the Shabda Brahman in the form of mantras. So that is your first mistake in misapplying this bani to Sanatana Dharma.

[Balbir Singh]

Gurbani gives a clear cut message to a sikh what he is to believe in.A sikh is a believer in what their

Gurus have instructed.A sikh should respect belief system of other humnan beings..But for a sikh Gurbani's

message is the only one to follow.We are forbidden to believe in duality.

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥

pandit mulaaN chhaaday do-oo. ||1|| rahaa-o.

SGGS 1158

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Singh2 Jee!

Your views are worthy. Are these really found among Sikhs of these days?

Please mention one activity of today's Sikh that he performs because he follows the Guru's clear cut message. I will be grateful.

Please do not forget to refer the Guru's Vaak where they have suggested so.

Be sure that your feet are touching the earth when you find Sikhs performing only rituals guided by the Sick preachers.

*****

Thanks for the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev.

Your Pandits and Mullahs have new titles now. They seem to have convinced you that they are the Turiyaa Avasthaa.

Strange, Sikhs claim that they have left Pandits and Mullahs both. But all days they are quarreling.

Their so-called Saints are calling for demonstrations. Proudly next day on TV Interviews they confirm that the person standing next to them was shot dead. The bullet was aimed on them though.

Just imagine. Born with the name sant gives call for demonstration and nobody goes there.

Balbir Singh

Edited January 27, 2010 by Balbir Singh

[GuptSingh1699]

Harjas Kaur, you are lost.

Bani says: HINDU ANNA TURKU KANA. A Hindu is blind and a Muslim has only one eye.

Bani says: NA HUM HINDU NA MUSALMAAN. We are neither Hindus, nor Muslims.