Implementation of detailed rules to prevent insults against other religions????

[Kaljug]

This forum has seriously degenerated lately with some regular posters making consistent, hateful, ignorant and generalistic remarks about Hindus and Muslims.

N30, I sent you a PM about this a while back, you have failed to enforce your own forum rules i.e. "This forum is dedicated to Islam (((( No racist, hateful messages allowed ))))".

Well, it's going to be pretty difficult to have a forum dedicated to Islam that does not allow racist or hateful messages given that racism, hate and intolerance are central parts of Islamic doctrine.

If you are suggesting that the forum be changed in name to something like Sufiana or Islamic roohaniyat so that the works of a few mystically inclined poets of Islamic origin can be discussed, I'm all for it. If however you are advocating the censoring of opinions of Sikhs who choose to look at Islam in its entirety rather than ignore the mass of swines and concentrate on the handful od pearls, then I vote for closing the forum down rather than turning into some kind of pro-Islamic bastion.

If it comes to the point where moderators are not going to allow discussion and news of Muslim terrorism across the globe and its basis in Islamic beliefs, then I'll be leaving this place and waiting for the time when Singhs here start rewriting our histories to whitewash the atrocities and barbarities carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam against our Gurus and their Sikhs.

K.

[shaheediyan]

"mass of swines and concentrate on the handful od pearls"

See, this is my problem. What is your basis for calling 2 billion insaans swines? How many of them have you met, how many Muslim countries have you visited?

Internet, news and experience of some low life hip hop Pakistani youth (who are no different to their Punjabi 'Sikh' scum bag hip hop trash brothers) is no basis.

No one is defending terrorism and fanaticsm etc, but to portray this as the norm for the Muslim world is wrong.

When I was at University (around 13 years ago), we had the fanatical Wahabi scum bags with their stalls every week around the campus. My Uni had a lot Muslims, from Malaysia, Middle East and UK, I can honestly say that these idiots never got interest of more than perhaps 20 low IQ kids.

On the contrary, me and some friends made great friends with many UK Pakistani and Bangledeshi youth, most of which were devout namazis. We never forced our faith on each other, yet were unapologetic either - but always remained respectful, though inquisitive. Esp with the Punjabi Pakistanis, we shared many experiences re our joint heritage, 2 of these guys were from a famous Pehlavani pind/parvaar, and were still proud of their extant traditions (they loved training and wrestling)!

Shame is that most of the 'Sikhs' were too busy getting pissed in bhangra gigs, beating each other up helping many, many Sikh girls loose their dignity.. to ever know that there were nice Muslims. Their only experience with Muslims was that of the few idiots that came to the same nightclubs they did, trying to bad the same prey they were. Then of course it was 'lets protect out girls'. Later on in life they educate their kids as to the evil Muslims, whom they had spent much of their well spent Uni time trying to understand (sarcasm).

I suppose my outlook and that of the Muslims we knew was different to the 'crap self imposed experience' of the easily hating manipulated ignorant population on both sides.

Curse the real swine all you like, all I ask is that you don't generalise and stereotype. And that in accordance to the mannerisms, intelligence and brotherly essence of our Gurus, don't insult their religion.

I can only request as per the role models of Gurus and Sants, rest is up to you.

Vaheguru

Edited October 16, 2009 by shaheediyan

[Xylitol]

"mass of swines and concentrate on the handful od pearls"

See, this is my problem. What is your basis for calling 2 billion insaans swines? How many of them have you met, how many Muslim countries have you visited?

Internet, news and experience of some low life hip hop Pakistani youth (who are no different to their Punjabi 'Sikh' scum bag hip hop trash brothers) is no basis.

No one is defending terrorism and fanaticsm etc, but to portray this as the norm for the Muslim world is wrong.

When I was at University (around 13 years ago), we had the fanatical Wahabi scum bags with their stalls every week around the campus. My Uni had a lot Muslims, from Malaysia, Middle East and UK, I can honestly say that these idiots never got interest of more than perhaps 20 low IQ kids.

On the contrary, me and some friends made great friends with many UK Pakistani and Bangledeshi youth, most of which were devout namazis. We never forced our faith on each other, yet were unapologetic either - but always remained respectful, though inquisitive. Esp with the Punjabi Pakistanis, we shared many experiences re our joint heritage, 2 of these guys were from a famous Pehlavani pind/parvaar, and were still proud of their extant traditions (they loved training and wrestling)!

Shame is that most of the 'Sikhs' were too busy getting pissed in bhangra gigs, beating each other up helping many, many Sikh girls loose their dignity.. to ever know that there were nice Muslims. Their only experience with Muslims was that of the few idiots that came to the same nightclubs they did, trying to bad the same prey they were. Then of course it was 'lets protect out girls'. Later on in life they educate their kids as to the evil Muslims, whom they had spent much of their well spent Uni time trying to understand (sarcasm).

I suppose my outlook and that of the Muslims we knew was different to the 'crap self imposed experience' of the easily hating manipulated ignorant population on both sides.

Curse the real swine all you like, all I ask is that you don't generalise and stereotype. And that in accordance to the mannerisms, intelligence and brotherly essence of our Gurus, don't insult their religion.

I can only request as per the role models of Gurus and Sants, rest is up to you.

Vaheguru

This is interesting, because Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal in his katha stated outright that Muslims in UK were trying to convert Sikh girls, and that Muslims were trying to take them to Arab countries.

That being said, WE all know that most Muslims are decent normal people, just like most Christians and most people from any religion. Posters on the forum should be careful of making sweeping generalising statements.

[shaheediyan]

There is nothing wrong with Sant Ji stating that, he is just reiterating what he hears from UK Sikhs and has no need to think they are sensationalising (many of whom are). Sants have always been a source of old school media. As you say, a caveat should be applied, its a tiny monkey brain minority that do (did) commit these activities. At the end of the day, if the parents have not brought the girl up as a Sikhni, they are to blame. If the girl is so stupid as to 'ditch' her parents and faith and go to a Muslim country, thats her fault, which Sikh is going to blame his own daughter for running off with a Muslim. I sadly have met quite a few girls in my younger years who had run off with Muslim boys, and 1st hand, I can say, there was no 'reward from heavan' invloved on the Muslim boys side, it was simply a case of bollywood dreams. Both the girls and boys I have met have been as dumb as each other.

Saying that, I have also seen many Sikh girls running off with Punjabi boys, usually lower caste or Christian (Massi gotra etc). Again this never gets mentioned. I haven't even touched on those running off with Afro-Caribs.

Today, the real danger to all women is from Eastern European gangsters who don't discriminate when duping/kidnapping literally thousands of young girls across Europe and enslaving them in the Sex industry (inc UK).

Funny how that never gets mentioned.

[shaheediyan]

Also, I doubt Sant Ji was told about how tens of thousands of Sikh girls are taken advantage of every year by Sikh boys in the wests (UK/CA/US)'Hip Hop/Bhangra' University culture...

I think these same guys should maybe bring an hours worth of Britasia recordings next time they decide to use him as a vehicle for their own missions.

[Kaljug]

Shaheediyan veer ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

How many of them have you met, how many Muslim countries have you visited?

Many. Several. In all I noticed that simmering resentment of the Islamic masses was only kept dampened by the iron hand of rule of whatever dictator rules the country, with kidnappings, secret executions, and funding provided for jihadis to go and practice their religious fanatacism in other countries. As soon as this control lapses, the country goes up in smoke. Give it a few years and even Turkey, a supposedly non-Islamic country with its majority Muslim population will follow this pattern.

I hope you do not think that I am simply basing my conclusions on the Walsall Alis and the Birmingham Abduls. That would be rather patronising.

No one is defending terrorism and fanaticsm etc, but to portray this as the norm for the Muslim world is wrong.

Actually, this is exactly what you are doung ever time that you leap to the defence of Islam, whether you are aware of it or not. All these things that you and I find despicable are central tenets of Islam, and I'm afraid that the roohaniyat that you are identifying with real Islam is simply a tiny sect, albeit one that attracts the best Muslims and keeps them safe from abdorbing the violence and the hatred of which the Quran and the sayings and actions of the "prophet" reek.

When I was at University (around 13 years ago), we had the fanatical Wahabi scum bags with their stalls every week around the campus. My Uni had a lot Muslims, from Malaysia, Middle East and UK, I can honestly say that these idiots never got interest of more than perhaps 20 low IQ kids.

On the contrary, me and some friends made great friends with many UK Pakistani and Bangledeshi youth, most of which were devout namazis. We never forced our faith on each other, yet were unapologetic either - but always remained respectful, though inquisitive. Esp with the Punjabi Pakistanis, we shared many experiences re our joint heritage, 2 of these guys were from a famous Pehlavani pind/parvaar, and were still proud of their extant traditions (they loved training and wrestling)!

That's great. Now go and live in their countries for a while and share with them how little Sikhi thinks of Sharia, how Sikhs will never live under domination of Muslims and their laws, how Sikhi does not believe that Mohammed was the last prophet, how you want equality under the law for all people, Muslim and non-Muslim and watch how swiftly their views change.

See here for a recent example of a regular non-Taliban Pakistani Muslim teacher treats her non-Christian pupil:

http://www.bosnewslife.com/9431-christian-girl-attacked-for-saying-shes-pakistani

This is not an uncommon occurence, nor are such things that have just suddenly begun to happen since the Taliban came to town.

If you don't believe this is possible, read up on the history of Islamic conquests (even if it's just the history of India), and you will realise that the wave of happy shiny fresh-faced Muslim immigrants are usually the first ones to turn into batshit crazy terrorist scums when their numbers are great enough to change the laws of the country they inhabit. Or just take a look at the recent history of Europe and you will realise the same.

Curse the real swine all you like, all I ask is that you don't generalise and stereotype. And that in accordance to the mannerisms, intelligence and brotherly essence of our Gurus, don't insult their religion.

I'm afraid that it is their religion that turns them into bad people, not the other way round, veer ji. You only have to look at their countries, their religious doctrines, and their holy books to realise this. I woukld no longer ignore the hatred that Islam teahes than I would the teachings of National Socialism.

I would also ask you not to generalise and stereotype based solely on your experiences of food people who happen to be Muslims in an attempt to whitewash Islam to turn into into some Sufi paradise that it never was nor ever will be. It's all well and good to read Rumi, but if you turn around and say that Rumi is Islam, then you would be grossly in error and I'd imagine you'd even manage to offend some of your Muslim friends.

Take a looksee at the Ayatollah's recent pronouncement that Islam forbids women from having any role in politics. That is Islam in action.

Regards and happy belated Bandhi Chor,

K.

Vaheguru

[shaheediyan]

"Give it a few years and even Turkey, a supposedly non-Islamic country with its majority Muslim population will follow this pattern."

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

"Give it a few years and even Turkey, a supposedly non-Islamic country with its majority Muslim population will follow this pattern."

Any country with a fanatical ruler, no matter how good the populace, can be lead by propoganda - look at WW2 Germany.

Lol, having Turkish friends (non Gang Land - shock horror), I can can quite confidently say that Turk youth are so modern (put Brits to shame) and independant, this is highly unlikely. With is increasing Sufi base and devote Muslims farmers regularly hunting and EATING boar, I doubt your prophecy will transpite, more likely Brits will become fanatical under the incluence of idiot hate groups like BNP.

I am not going to keep going around in circles.

Just think about how so many excellent relations with Muslims were possible by our Gurus, it wasn't by insulting their faith and prophet. What you do is create a divide and hate, rather than create a common spiritual ground (which does exist).

Your attitude is non reflective of Gurmat, simple. No one is saying Muhammed Sahib was the last Prophet, or that the religion/recorded history is perfect (inc evolving elements like Sharia - interpreations of which many Muslims schools still don't agree on today, alongside the Quran).

Gurmat attitude is that the Prophet or the Quran contents do not need commenting on, which is what true vidvaans and Sants adhere to today, as do most intelligent and responsible Sikhs. This is not a dhimmi attitude.

Shouting obscenities about someone faith does not make one a Maha Bali, when it comes down to it, ones actions/response to injustice does.

If you focused on elements of Islam like Dhikr, you may find you have common divine ground, and may even meet some nice/spiritual Muslims. The world is what we make it, God will present to you that which you perceive, maybe that is why we have different experiences.

This anything goes mentality i.e. nothing is sacred, question and insult everything, is nothing more than a revisionist Singh Sabiya mentality, which we see amongst the CA unholy Singh Sabiya trinity and all their disowning offshoots, your friend Tony reeks of this mentality, its a shame someone like you (whom I generally like) has also fallen victim to it.

My issue is not with your personal opinions on Islam/Prophet etc, its with the irresponsible and insulting voice you publically share your 'opinions', simpletons (of which they are many) will mistake your views for those of the Sikh Panth, thats my problem. As Singhs we are always representative of Guru Gobind Singh, if he didn't behave in a certain way, neither should we, he is our father and role model, rest is your choice, I have tried.

Sat Naam.

[Kaljug]

Shaheediyan veer ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Lol, having Turkish friends (non Gang Land - shock horror), I can can quite confidently say that Turk youth are so modern (put Brits to shame) and independant, this is highly unlikely. With is increasing Sufi base and devote Muslims farmers regularly hunting and EATING boar, I doubt your prophecy will transpite, more likely Brits will become fanatical under the incluence of idiot hate groups like BNP.

I guess this is something we'll be able to see in our lifetimes. I honestly hope you are right, but I also have many Turkish friends (non gangland also), who are headed in the opposite direction of Ataturk's vision of Turkey, and given the history of Turkey as being the invasion point of Islam into Europe, I don't hold out much hope for your vision of a secular Turkey lasting much longer.

Just think about how so many excellent relations with Muslims were possible by our Gurus, it wasn't by insulting their faith and prophet. What you do is create a divide and hate, rather than create a common spiritual ground (which does exist).

This division is pretty clear to me in both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the rehat maryadas. Sikhs will never accept Sharia, Muslims will never accept a world where everybody believes in their myth of Sharia being a divine law ordered by God to be followed by everyone. It is that easy.

Your attitude is non reflective of Gurmat, simple. No one is saying Muhammed Sahib was the last Prophet, or that the religion/recorded history is perfect (inc evolving elements like Sharia - interpreations of which many Muslims schools still don't agree on today, alongside the Quran).

You're ignoring the fact that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet, and anyone who disagrees with this is subject to punishment under Sharia's blasphemy laws. While there are differences in thought between even just the 4 schools of Sunni Jurisprudence, all of them believe in jihad, in the status of dhimmis, in the belief that the world is divided into Dar ar Islam and Dar al Harb, the House of Islam and the House of War, the latter which consists of all those peoples who have yet to be compelled to accept Islam and Sharia law. Vide Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad for texts translated from the Arabic which illustrate this, or just talk to someone who has studied in Al-Azhar University.

Gurmat attitude is that the Prophet or the Quran contents do not need commenting on, which is what true vidvaans and Sants adhere to today, as do most intelligent and responsible Sikhs. This is not a dhimmi attitude.

Permitting lies to be spread as truth, not defending one's owns beliefs, ignoring the dangers of the spread of Islam is what I would call a dhimmi attitude. Sants and Vidvaans serve a different purpose to that of social commentary and general political awareness.

Shouting obscenities about someone faith does not make one a Maha Bali, when it comes down to it, ones actions/response to injustice does.

Agreed, but I've never considered myself a Maha anaything, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

If you focused on elements of Islam like Dhikr, you may find you have common divine ground, and may even meet some nice/spiritual Muslims. The world is what we make it, God will present to you that which you perceive, maybe that is why we have different experiences.

No doubt, but concentrating on similarities and ignoring differences seems a good way of purposely blinding oneself to the obvious truth. After all, Hitler was nice to his cats, but pretending that the essence of National Socialism consisted of this fact, would be pretty silly.

This anything goes mentality i.e. nothing is sacred, question and insult everything, is nothing more than a revisionist Singh Sabiya mentality, which we see amongst the CA unholy Singh Sabiya trinity and all their disowning offshoots, your friend Tony reeks of this mentality, its a shame someone like you (whom I generally like) has also fallen victim to it.

Nope, Singh Sabha has nothing to do with my views, it's just a basic understanding of history that informs them.

Thanks for the kind words though - I am fond of you also, even when our views diverge so greatly in some respects. I just prefer to celebrate these differences rather than accuse you of being anti-Gurmat or of being a dhimmi or whatever.

My issue is not with your personal opinions on Islam/Prophet etc, its with the irresponsible and insulting voice you publically share your 'opinions', simpletons (of which they are many) will mistake your views for those of the Sikh Panth, thats my problem. As Singhs we are always representative of Guru Gobind Singh, if he didn't behave in a certain way, neither should we, he is our father and role model, rest is your choice, I have tried.

Simpletons will misunderstand anything, there's not much that can be done about that, I'm afraid. It's also pretty clear that our understanding of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's mission is pretty different.

Sat Naam.

Sri Waheguru Ji!

Regards,

K.

[Xylitol]

Also, I doubt Sant Ji was told about how tens of thousands of Sikh girls are taken advantage of every year by Sikh boys in the wests (UK/CA/US)'Hip Hop/Bhangra' University culture...

I think these same guys should maybe bring an hours worth of Britasia recordings next time they decide to use him as a vehicle for their own missions.

The difference between an organised attempt to convert girls of another faith (and in some cases sell their bodies overseas) vs individual persons from different backgrounds (including Sikh) engaging in immoral behaviour with each other is not slight.

[Guest]

Easy with swearing guys, there are kids on this forum..shhhh..just an friendly reminder.

[shaheediyan]

Thats right racism, prejudice, stereotyping and religious insults are fine for kids, but keep a watch on the swearing..

[Guest]

Thats right racism, prejudice, stereotyping and religious insults are fine for kids, but keep a watch on the swearing..

I totally understand your frustration. We are working on it to come up with a solution. Please pm me to suggest any detailed ideas which stops racism, prejudice, stereotyping, religious insults on the forum but at the same time striking a balance between religious tolerance and freedom of speech.

[Matheen]

..... striking a balance between religious tolerance and freedom of speech.

It's hard to do, e.g. if a verse from the Quran says something that is offensive, or if people report the reality of what goes on on the streets, that should be allowed because it is fact.

We can't hide from the truth because of political correctness. Stereotyping and racism etc is easy to spot and challange so not really a problem.

[shaheediyan]

Matheen, if one is to interpret the Quran or any other religious literature, then at least do so in a balanced fashion, rather than purely resorting to our uneducated understanding or that of clearly biased authors/analysts.

I have never ever seen anyone source interpretations from an intelligent Muslim source.

It would be like us having discussions on Sikhi here, basing all our interpretations of Bani and ithihaas on biased (hateful) western academics.

There is nothing wrong with saying that one doesn't agree with the Quran or the Muslim Prophet etc, but why resort to insulting the whole religion and people? Especially the nonsensical stereotying that goes on here.

N30, what you need to do is create more detailed rules on posting for this forum.

Forget asking a nobody like me, take advice from a Sant i.e. Sant Jagjit Singh Ji etc - re bounderies, respect, tolerance etc, esp in an open public space such as this. That way, if a respected figure gives advice, most members are likely to follow it, you will always have your usual troublesome non-Sant believing relative Neophyte Singhs - whose only Sant is their own manmat.

[Kaljug]

Matheen, if one is to interpret the Quran or any other religious literature, then at least do so in a balanced fashion, rather than purely resorting to our uneducated understanding or that of clearly biased authors/analysts.

I have never ever seen anyone source interpretations from an intelligent Muslim source.

Herein lies the problem. You, and the rest of the Sikhs here who see life through rose-tinted spectacles, are convinced that the interpretation of a handful of Sufis is somehow more correct than the rest of the Islamic world who do not feel the need to resort to kitman and taquiyyah to spread their doctrines.

Can you even recognise an "intelligent" Muslim source if you saw one? I could show you the writings from Al-Azhar University, Sunni Islam's highest educational institution, or show you what leading scholars of Islam throughout the ages have qritten about jihad and the subjugation of infidels - but you will just turn around and say "Oh well, that's not what the Rumi says". I could show you the Ayatollah's latest pronouncement (he is the highest authority in Shia Islam and knows more about Islam than you do) that women are forbidden to have any party in the running of an Islamic government, and you will probably start quoting Sheikh Farid as if it has anything to do with the matter.

What you fail to understand, both through your lack of reading of Islam's history and doctrines without the PC whitewash that has occurred in the last few decades, and because you have bought in the Islamic bullshit about any criticism of Islam being "Islamophobic", as if criticism of a written text or a political system is somehow a hate crime.

If you somehow succeed in ridding this forum of any view of Islam that you find distasteful, you will be responsible for letting Muslims spread the lies, hatred, racism and prejudice of their religious beliefs unhindered, and you will be preventing other Sikhs who do not believe in the sweetness-and-light image of Islam that you have constructed out of your own lack of knowledge and fantasies about what Islam should constitute.

Given that there have been Sikhs who have fought fanatical Muslims throughout our history and have recorded their dealings with them (as the rehats against dealing with or trusting Muslims, or asking possible Muslim spies to consume boar before they chak Amrit attest to) you will no doubt also be as swift to remove these bits of historical Sikhi that do not sit well with you. Once that happens, you will be an excellent example of what Muslims refer to as a dhimmi. I would find this unfortunate given that I otherwise think highly of you, but .. well, is what it is.

Warm regards,

K.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Kaljug

[Kaljug]

Forget asking a nobody like me, take advice from a Sant i.e. Sant Jagjit Singh Ji etc - re bounderies, respect, tolerance etc, esp in an open public space such as this. That way, if a respected figure gives advice, most members are likely to follow it, you will always have your usual troublesome non-Sant believing relative Neophyte Singhs - whose only Sant is their own manmat.

Singh, you already questioned Sant Jagjit Singh Ji talking about Muslims grooming young Sikh girls for conversion and suggested that he may have been misled by Sikhs, so that obviously isn't going to work.

Since it seems that it is usually you and I arguing about this point, I'd suggest that we arrange a conversation in person so that we can attempt to understand each other's concerns -- face-to-face interactions work better to settle a bone of contention, especially over a hot cup of desi tea.

Also, I heartily apologise if anything I said has offended you personally. Apparently I can come across as a meanie when I am typing at people. I hope that you have not taken anything I have said personally as it's unintentional - all I see is two strong points of view being expressed, perhaps irreconcilable ones, but perhaps not.

Regards,

K.

[shaheediyan]

Its takes a lot more than calling me a "Dhimmi" to offend me.

Sadly you are taking much of what I say out of context - my opinions on Sharia and the 'Muslim' components of our Rehits are very clear, if interested, do a search on this forum, you may be surprised.

No matter what you say, Guru Sahiban have made use of Islam and the Quran, as they have of Indic traditions - in terms of culture, concepts and names of God - you cannot twist those facts. Jaap Sahib contains many of 'Allahs' names i.e. Raheem. There is no big arth to be unraveled here, these names are beautiful, in agreemtent with Gurmat and accepted by Guru Sahiban, simple. They also create a common universal sphere with Muslims, as do the many Indic religious names which have been used.

This is what Guru Sahiban focused on in terms of Islam - not on man made historical records and personal lives. There is a reason for this, same way, when Mahapurkh like Baba Gurbachan Singh mention Islams Prophet, they address Muhammed with Sahib, and do not waste time on insults.

Other than that, as I have said before, there is much in our ithihaas which shows Guru Sahiban neither hated 'Islam' nor promoted hate for Islam, Guru Di Masjid stands as a testimony to this fact.

You are welcome to my very humble abode, I live in SW London, whenever passing, feel free to drop by, there are all sorts of Desi Cha variations available here - esp made with fresh puthna from the garden!

Re this subject, take my advice, be totally honest and speak to some jeevan valai Gursikh and Sants, and let them know how you have been refering to Islam and Muhammed Sahib, esp in a public arena, see what they say - and share with us.

I doubt anything I will say will change your mind.

I leave you with a line from the Quran:

"Lo! In the creation of the Heavens and the earth and in the night and day are tokens (of His sovereignty) for men of understanding, such as remember Allah, in standing, sitting, and reclining. [Qur'an 3:190-191]"

The Islamic institution of Dhikr is a truely beautiful one.

[Kaljug]

My opinions, if they are not already clear, are as follows.

Given that Islam is offensive to pretty much every other religion, I'd suggest banning any discussion of it. Also, Christians believe that non-Christians all burn in hell, which is pretty offensive to everybody else, so I suggest not talking about it. Gurbani also talks about the uselessness of many Muslim and Hindu rituals, which some Muslims and Hindus find offensive (well, when they are not trying to explain them away) so we should not talk about those either. In fact, we should just all stop talking for fear that it may offend someone's religious sensibilities.

Sometimes I think Sikhs as a whole are so paranoid about hurting others' religious sesnsibilities that they would rather ignore the truth and even Gurbani and essential Sikh teachings. I've never seen this complete lack of conviction (or complete ignorance of history) on any other religious forum that I frequent.

The fact of the matter is that the Hadiths record Mohammed being a paedophile rapist, ordering the execution of anyone who didn't believe in his message, commanding his followers to carry out the genocide of an entire Jewish tribe after making the Jews first watch their daughters and wives being raped in front of their eyes, robbing travellers and distributing the booty amongst his followers, giving religious right to the institutions of slavery - and having the gall to claim that he did these things because God told he could.

I'll wager that there are even some of you would say "Oh my god, mods, ban him! He is insulting another religious figure!" And yet, every single Muslim knows of these incidents and wil relate them proudly. Furthermore, they are spoken of in any book on Muhammad or his creed, even if only sometimes in passing out of fear that someone may start to question Mo's character.

His followers, for the most part, have followed in his footsteps, and even those who have not, find no fault with their "prophet's" actions.

If you people want to ban discussion of real historical truth, then simply do away with discussion of any religion and have done with it. I'd rather have that than watch some of you being fed lies and fairy stories about an Islamic spiritual utopia full of Sufis following some noble god-like figure as their leader.

K.

K.

[Kaljug]

Re this subject, take my advice, be totally honest and speak to some jeevan valai Gursikh and Sants, and let them know how you have been refering to Islam and Muhammed Sahib, esp in a public arena, see what they say - and share with us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

I still don't feel that you are understanding what I am saying. The point is not whether Muslims can reach God through following spiritual traditions like Sufism, the point is whether this is what Islam is. You believe that Sufiana = Islam, my reading of history and Islam suggests that this is nothing but an outcrop, and a small one at that. The larger part of Islam is nothing but a totalitarian political system that is designed to crush any opposition. This is the reason that Hitler was so fond of it.

I also don't believe that Mohammed was anything but a charlatan and a damaged human being, you seem to believe in banning any criticism of him because its not in accordance with your views.

Chardikala Gursikhs and Sants who are also students of history are few and far between, though if you know of any I would be happy to have a chat with them.

The purpose of a Sant is to encourage others to meet God not to offer commentary on historical facts. I would no more discuss history with a Sant than I would Quantum Mechanics. In any case, the best that will come of such conversations is an encouragement to concentrate on my jeevan, not in the furnishing of any kind of evidence that will turn Mohammed into a good human being or Islam into some spiritual system as you seem to imagine it.

By the way, I didn't call you a dhimmi, I said that you will become one if you kill criticism of Islam on a Sikh forum.

I may take you up on the offer when I'm next in London. You are also more than welcome to visit me whenever you wish, and I would be happy to serve you. You already know where I live. :-p

K.

[amardeep]

The fact of the matter is that the Hadiths record Mohammed being a paedophile rapist, ordering the execution of anyone who didn't believe in his message, commanding his followers to carry out the genocide of an entire Jewish tribe after making the Jews first watch their daughters and wives being raped in front of their eyes, robbing travellers and distributing the booty amongst his followers, giving religious right to the institutions of slavery - and having the gall to claim that he did these things because God told he could.

Fine that you've been using jihadwatch and faithfreedom etc but have you actually taken the time to go asks local muslims at the mosque about these incidents to hear their version of the story? There is a saying going "If you see a conflict from just one side or the other - you will be blind from the truth"

[amardeep]

oye why are'nt any of you inviting me to have chai

[Kaljug]

Fine that you've been using jihadwatch and faithfreedom etc but have you actually taken the time to go asks local muslims at the mosque about these incidents to hear their version of the story? There is a saying going "If you see a conflict from just one side or the other - you will be blind from the truth"

Jihadwatch is OK as a new source, but pretty useless for anything else. Faithfreedom is ... meh. I prefer Andrew Bostom, Bat Yeor, though some of Robert Smith's books are OK (most of them are pretty samey).

Most will either deny them, change the subject, or give the usual reply of "Mohammed was the perfect human being". In any case, what other side is there to the story of the rape of women of the Bani Quraysh tribe and the execution of the males of the tribe? They are not exactly around to relate thei version of events. Yet this incident is recorded in the Hadith as if there was nothing wrong with what was done.

What part of the UK are you in, Amardeep? Maybe we should all just meet someplace in the middle for some tea. I work across the South West, but I'm frequently in London, Wales, Edinburgh, the West Mids, and "down South".

Regards,

K.

[shaheediyan]

"And yet, every single Muslim knows of these incidents and wil relate them proudly."

C'mon, seriously, I can't even respond to that, thats plain lies - did all the Muslim friends and associates who met with our Gurus also relate these incidents proudly? I have never ever met one that has.

Anyhow, I'm spent on this topic - one of us is obviously missing the trick.

Amardeep, you are most welcome for chaa also, anytime.

[ds123]

True singhs don't drink tea...hahaha

[Guest]

I personally will not go in circles. I really suggest, people who are totally against quran/islam should do this experiment, without any preconceived thoughts on your mind, do chalisa abhyaas of the below couplet of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj declaration on other dharams and scriptures text in Sri Akaal Ustat for 40 days. If after 40 days of chalisa on the couplet below does not give disclosure on Gurmat take on quran or islam then consider its one's typical own fanatical mindset which is against other dharams which happen to be hidden behind under name of Khalsa and consider such mindset has no place in Guru's Darbar. In other words- speak for yourself.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥

हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥

Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥

करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥

Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hindusim and Islam as an error and an illusion.

ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥

एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥

Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85.

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥

The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देवता अदेव ज्छ गंध्रब तुरक हिंदू निआरे निआरे देसन के भेस को प्रभाउ है ॥

The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਿਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

एकै नैन एकै कान एकै देह एकै बान खाक बाद आतिस औ आब को रलाउ है ॥

The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥

अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥

Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.