Social Influence

[kdsingh80]

In thread "finding a rishta" by asd ,we started discussing about social infuence I request mods to shift all those posts in this thread so that asd veer can discuss his problem

[dalsingh101]

I think as humans, we seem to be hardwired to care about societies opinion. Panjabis are some of the worse culprits at this too. Being looked down upon by people you respect for any reason terrifies apnay to a inordinate degree. They consider it a loss of that mysterious thing called 'izzat'.

Even many Amritdharis are very susceptible to the social pressures of the jatha they affiliate with. You can see this cracking up sometimes on SS where you will get 'gupt' posts by people who are in abject misery and confess to what amounts to a 'charade' in front of their jatha when under the surface they have lots of other things going on.

So to me it looks like social pressure is something that all (most) of us experience to some degree. I also think that given the level of openness and conservativism in a society, one will be more confident about exposing goings on that goes against the grain then another. In this respect again Sikh society is very conservative (in my opinion) because we ALL know we have a lot of double lives going on in the community and a lot of what goes gets swept under the carpet like alcoholism, gurdwara abuse and hordes of apneean acting like slappers for example.

So it seems to boil down to the issue of which society/group social pressure you conform to, as opposed to the notion that some people are largely immune to such things and others not?

[kdsingh80]

Dal singh

It is the conservative nature of Sikh society has saved the turban and uncut hair O/W almost 99% youths all over the world would end up cutting their hair.Look at Muslims at one point they used to keep beards but almost 99% today are clean shaven. A few years back muslim scholars in India praised the sikhs for wearing Turban and keeping beards while scolded the muslim Youths for not keeping beards

[dalsingh101]

It is the conservative nature of Sikh society has saved the turban and uncut hair O/W almost 99% youths all over the world would end up cutting their hair.Look at Muslims at one point they used to keep beards but almost 99% today are clean shaven. A few years back muslim scholars in India praised the sikhs for wearing Turban and keeping beards while scolded the muslim Youths for not keeping beards

That might be considered an achievement by some but having known a fair few keshdhari Sikhs who drunk, took drugs, shagged about when not under the radar of the olders, I wonder what kind of success this is?

I too remember a time when others would exalt Sikhs for keeping their external form abroad, but when the underlying belief/ actions associated with the roop isn't demonstrated by many of those compelled to keep it due to conservatism, I do wonder if we are celebrating a pyrrhic victory?

Edited June 9, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

That might be considered an achievement by some but having known a fair few keshdhari Sikhs who drunk, took drugs, shagged about when not under the radar of the olders, I wonder what kind of success this is?

I too remember a time when others would exalt Sikhs for keeping their external form abroad, but when the underlying belief/ actions associated with the roop isn't demonstrated by many of those compelled to keep it due to conservatism, I do wonder if we are celebrating a pyrrhic victory?

I don't know it is a matter of celebration or not but it certainly saved Sikhism from assimilation into Hinduism in 20th century .

Please remember we had best generation of Sikhs as Turbaned one ,once the youths of Punjab started cutting their hair they became more materialistic and hardly presented any qualities of being a good Sikh

Edited June 9, 2011 by kdsingh80

[SURYADEV]

as with most things there is a balance that is required between conformity and non-conformity.

where do we as individuals, kaum, society and race draw that line? not only that but how do we consider other who break out of the boundries that are self/imposed on us?

I believe we are too conformist in certain matters, as a sikh kaum. not only that; if someone wants to differ from the norms then the masses come down like a ton of brick.

As Dalsingh pointed out how often do we read about 'guptsingh/singhni' who has 'bad' thoughts and then feel guilty and remorseful? A short while ago there was a 13 yr old boy asking for advice on how to completely get rid of his kaam! I feel that there is such warped pressure on these kids these days to follow a set of beliefs, esp with a 'cyber sangat' about, that they are made to do or not do things. And if they don't conform they are made to feel this guilt. Is that how we keep people into sikhi, through guilt trips? I do feel that with things like this we will end up with more and more scandals, as people commit there non-conformist thoughts/words/deeds behind closed doors and then get the book thrown at them when all comes out in the open.

[dalsingh101]

I don't know it is a matter of celebration or not but it certainly saved Sikhism from assimilation into Hinduism in 20th century .

I hear you but also factor in that prior to annexation the turban was worn by a big percentage of Sikhs and if any of the puratan literature of the time is anything to go by, they still did a lot of stuff that would be considered hardcore Hindu by Sikhs today. So the relationship isn't as linear as you are suggesting.

Please remember we had best generation of Sikhs as Turbaned one ,once the youths of Punjab started cutting their hair they became more materialistic and hardly presented any qualities of being a good Sikh

Which generation are you talking about?

Edited June 9, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

how often do we read about 'guptsingh/singhni' who has 'bad' thoughts and then feel guilty and remorseful? A short while ago there was a 13 yr old boy asking for advice on how to completely get rid of his kaam!

That is not about to go away. People often see bani as some sort of 'talisman' that they can use to remove difficulties in life magically.

I feel that there is such warped pressure on these kids these days to follow a set of beliefs, esp with a 'cyber sangat' about, that they are made to do or not do things. And if they don't conform they are made to feel this guilt. Is that how we keep people into sikhi, through guilt trips?

Every society does this. Even so called modern western one can pile on pressure in the form of making people feel backwards, archaic and redundant because they do not want to follow the 'modern trend'. A while ago I would have been against the use of guilt trips but nowadays I'm not. The question is setting up our society so they feel intense guilt about things they should feel that way about such as female foeticide, Gurdwara abuse, casteism, hypocrisy and general pendu stupid behaviour like going caveman when it is not warranted. Our societies problem is that it doesn't get its priorities right in this respect and thus we end up focusing on things targeting the individual rather than systemic problems in our society as a whole.

I do feel that with things like this we will end up with more and more scandals, as people commit there non-conformist thoughts/words/deeds behind closed doors and then get the book thrown at them when all comes out in the open.

I don't see ANY let up on our conservatism at the moment nor any on the horizon. We need an increase in progressive families until they outnumber the small minded and change the flavour of the quom in this respect.

[kdsingh80]

Which generation are you talking about?

I am talking about generations prior to 90s.an average Indian was not fool who consider Sikh as Brave,honest ,hardworking.

[dalsingh101]

I am talking about generations prior to 90s.an average Indian was not fool who consider Sikh as Brave,honest ,hardworking.

That issue is more complicated than "they changed because they cut their hair" to me.

[kdsingh80]

That issue is more complicated than "they changed because they cut their hair" to me.

In India if see a pandit with dhoti and bodi you can say that he is from pind,if you see a muslim with beard and skull cap you can say he is from pind but in only you see a Sikh with uncut hair and beard you will say he is an urban Sikh ,what reason was their pendu people to discard sikh identity ,do you have any answer

[dalsingh101]

In India if see a pandit with dhoti and bodi you can say that he is from pind,if you see a muslim with beard and skull cap you can say he is from pind but in only you see a Sikh with uncut hair and beard you will say he is an urban Sikh ,what reason was their pendu people to discard sikh identity ,do you have any answer

Well there could multiple reasons for this. Some of it may be subconscious or even conscious inferiority complex. Everyone knows most pendus dream of coming to the west and living the western lifestyle. They are just 'approximating' that impulse by dressing like they feel is normal here, there. Plus people frequently overcompensate for perceived shortcomings. So being from a pend (and being associated with backward rurality this identity frequently carries) may make them try harder to be modern hence a higher incidence there? Maybe some of the urbanites are plainly more comfortable with themselves?

Also are the same type of families inhabiting pends and towns? If not, maybe the subcommunity in the towns have a different priorities/perspectives than the villagers that cause this?

Plus the uncomfortable thought that maybe some of the pend people's alliance to Sikhi was/is more to do with economic uplift than actual deep conviction in the faith and now that Sikh villagers are no longer making big profits and having big status, they jettison the external symbols that previously defined them with abandon? This last point is not as simple as that though, because these people still retain their Sikh religious identity despite this, so it does mean something to them.

Interesting question popped in my head: Do young Sikh villagers in Panjab feel constrained or disadvantaged by the roop these days? I know the VAST majority of freshies I meet here are monay these days.

[kdsingh80]

Maybe some of the urbanites are plainly more comfortable with themselves?

I am an urbanite and let me tell you main reason is urbanite are very strict in this.They keep on telling their boys that if you cut your hair you will become hindu's ,some even say you will be disowned,some say that they will never talk to you.I am sure if the urban sikh community Khatri,arora tarkhan etc have given same freedom to their boys as pendu jatt sikhs do turban would have been extinct by now

Everyone knows most pendus dream of coming to the west and living the western lifestyle.

I don't know because whenever there is documentry on Punjab in any tv channel you will not see many boys with joora,almost all of them are with short hair so if parents are raising them with short hair then You can't blame western dreams

[dalsingh101]

I am an urbanite and let me tell you main reason is urbanite are very strict in this.They keep on telling their boys that if you cut your hair you will become hindu's ,some even say you will be disowned,some say that they will never talk to you.I am sure if the urban sikh community Khatri,arora tarkhan etc have given same freedom to their boys as pendu jatt sikhs do turban would have been extinct by now.

I don't know because whenever there is documentry on Punjab in any tv channel you will not see many boys with joora,almost all of them are with short hair so if parents are raising them with short hair then You can't blame western dreams

Maybe it was the perceived defeat of the militant lehar in the 90s then? The very people who are now deserting the roop in droves were considered to be the backbone of this. Maybe the whole experience has a hand in all this? Is it the result of some sort of demoralisation at events?

Could it just be Hollywood and Bollywood's influence?

Maybe it's a whole confluence of reasons i.e. all of the above (and more) in varying degrees?

[kdsingh80]

Could it just be Hollywood and Bollywood's influence?

Maybe it's a whole confluence of reasons i.e. all of the above (and more) in varying degrees?

Hollywood is beyond the understanding of most pendu India ,bollywood you can say but I am sure they watch many Punjabi films too ,on the other hand urbanites see Hindi serials and bollywood all the time but still it has not affected their mentality about the uncut hair.

[dalsingh101]

Hollywood is beyond the understanding of most pendu India ,bollywood you can say but I am sure they watch many Punjabi films too ,on the other hand urbanites see Hindi serials and bollywood all the time but still it has not affected their mentality about the uncut hair.

Well what do you think it is then?

[kdsingh80]

Well what do you think it is then?

Very difficult to answer ,only those who has real knowledge of Pind Life can tell why it happened ? Whether their Gurdwara's really encouraged them to keep Sikh identity or they were just casual about it.

I don't think defeat of militant movement or Punjab police

has real effect on that because then it shows that pendu Sikhs are real cowards.Even the urbanites of Delhi or haryana after 84 Riots either surrendered to their destiny or just moved to Punjab but very few cut their hair.

All I can the say the dominant rural community jatts were not proud of their identity as the khatri or other urbanites were.may be uncut hair was never important for them

Edited June 9, 2011 by kdsingh80

[dalsingh101]

Very difficult to answer ,only those who has real knowledge of Pind Life can tell why it happened ? Whether their Gurdwara's really encouraged them to keep Sikh identity or they were just casual about it.

hhmmmm....

I don't think defeat of militant movement or Punjab police has real effect on that because then it shows that pendu Sikhs are real cowards.Even the urbanites of Delhi or haryana after 84 Riots either surrendered to their destiny or just moved to Punjab but very few cut their hair.

That is a simplification. The pinds were terrorised. Plus being in a backwater the police could get away with more (on a systematic basis) as opposed to in a densely populated urban area with educated, respectable people about.

All I can the say the dominant rural community jatts were not proud of their identity as the khatri or other urbanites were.may be uncut hair was never important for them

That is an interesting notion. Maybe they would have cut their hair earlier (after annexation) had the WASPS not made it mandatory for them to keep kesh for employment in the army? But now you mention it, when I was growing up in London, it was mostly the Jatt kid's fathers who would have cut hair, almost every nonJat Sikh's father had a pagh. Strangely most if not all African Jatts kept their paghs proudly, those pointy ones normally associated with Dugoo Ramgarhias.

Maybe it's all related to the status obsession thing? No perceived status/value in wearing a pagh today, so they are lax about it?

[kdsingh80]

That is a simplification. The pinds were terrorised. Plus being in a backwater the police could get away with more (on a systematic basis) as opposed to in a densely populated urban area with educated, respectable people about.

The same Indian army,Police is terrorising Kashmiri's from 20 years. ,but they are becoming more and more anti India.

Even if that was true then many should had returned to their identity when police terror reduced ,but they didn't so can't agree with this theory though may be possible it happened in few area's of Punjab

[G.Kaur]

Speaking of social influence, I was just sent this article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2000871/Sarah-Burge-Human-Barbie-gives-daughter-boob-job-voucher-7th-birthday.html

Isn't that a message to the child that she can never be beautiful without surgery?

[dalsingh101]

Ahhhh....The Daily Mail...

Also known as 'The Daily Hate' on this here island.

This organ is legendary for pushing it's own anti immigrant, right wing, pseudo-colonialist worldview in England. A lot of people consider it's readers 'bigotry inclined'. So they have their own issue with the kind of social pressure they help create with their whining.

That being said, the sexualisation of children in the west is something that needs to be addressed. Banning clothes isn't going to go very far in doing this. A lot of working class kids have had sex during their teenage years here. It has Europe's highest teenage pregnancy rate.

I wonder why?

Edited June 10, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Xylitol]

tv. how many hours a day do people have "sangat" with tv vs. sangat with bani? and then they go to school and have sangat with others who have had hours of "sangat" with tv. punjab society suffered much decline after the pinds got tons of channels vs the very few they had previously.

i'm sure there are other factors, such as the indian govt and other politicians making liquour and drugs very easily available in punjab, lack of investment etc. when a person lacks prospects, so much easier to move down (become patit, drink, "enjoy") then to move up (live a relatively austere dharmic life).

[kdsingh80]

tv. how many hours a day do people have "sangat" with tv vs. sangat with bani? and then they go to school and have sangat with others who have had hours of "sangat" with tv. punjab society suffered much decline after the pinds got tons of channels vs the very few they had previously.

Urbanites have much more access to Television Infact cable Tv revolution started in Urban India in early 90s

while Cable Tv reached pinds in around 2000

i'm sure there are other factors, such as the indian govt and other politicians making liquour and drugs very easily available in punjab, lack of investment etc.

Is there any solid proof That GOI distribute drugs or liquor? I am sure they did when Kharkoo movement was

going on but why after the Kharkoo movement they do?

I am sorry but all the above logic is applicable on teenagers or adult no one has mentioned why young boys are without hair in Punjab ?

[kdsingh80]

http://punjabspectrum.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13768%3A2011-03-15-13-17-41&catid=162%3Acrimenews&Itemid=211

If Young boys in Punjab are raised like this then you can't blame anyone except parents

[G.Kaur]

Ahhhh....The Daily Mail...

Also known as 'The Daily Hate' on this here island.

This organ is legendary for pushing it's own anti immigrant, right wing, pseudo-colonialist worldview in England. A lot of people consider it's readers 'bigotry inclined'. So they have their own issue with the kind of social pressure they help create with their whining.

That being said, the sexualisation of children in the west is something that needs to be addressed. Banning clothes isn't going to go very far in doing this. A lot of working class kids have had sex during their teenage years here. It has Europe's highest teenage pregnancy rate.

I wonder why?

I must admit I don't know much about English newspapers and magazines. I was quite shocked when I was in Tesco and there were more than 100 different gossip magazines! OMG who publish all these magazines, do Brits really buy and read them? Don't people get tired of reading all these magazines?

Anyways back to topic, 5-6 years there was a documentary on TV about teenage mother's (most of them if not all weren't educated) in the UK. One of the girls was 12-13 years old when she had her first child. Her mother was 16-18 when she became a mother, and at that time she was in her mid 30's and a nanni! This girl didn't even know she was pregnant. One day she had stomach ache, she thought it was diarrhoea and went to the bathroom and suddenly she was giving birth. I mean how stupid can you be?! How can a girl/woman not know she's pregnant? Unless you're on drugs 24/7 you probably wouldn't notice you don't get your period for 9 months, you get bigger month by month, you can feel your child kicking in the stomach etc. but those who aren't on drugs, how can they not notice all these things that come with pregnancy?

My country has the highest rate of teen drinking in Europe. What's the worst, teenage pregnancies or teenage sharabi's?