Japji Sahib And Rehraas Sahib

[G.Kaur]

I was looking in 2 gutke about the pauree that is in japji sahib and rehraas sahib. In japji sahib it says "kar kar vekhai keeta aapna jiv tis dee vadiiaai" and in rehraas sahib it says "kar kar dekhai kitaa apna jio tis dee vadiiaaii".

Sorry for being ignorant, but isn't it suppose to be the exact same pauree from japji sahib in rehraas sahib?

[G.Kaur]

Could someone shed some light on my questions?

Another question:

Most people I've heard recite Chaupai Sahi say "sagree srisat dhikhaee achanbhav" while Taksali Singh's and people who have taken Santhiya say "sigree srisat dhikhaee achanbhav".

Is it sagree or sigree?

[dalsingh101]

Bhen ji I think Baba Nanak uses dialect variants in bani. As you probably know, in Panjabi v and d can be interchangeable hence 'dekh la' and 'vekh la' can be equally correct for 'watch it'.

Guru ji also does this with the interchangeable 'b' and 'v', so in Japji we have:

Gavay chit gupt likh jaanay likh likh dharam veecharay.

Whilst Rehras has:

Gavan tuhdno chit gupt likh jaanan likh likh dharam beecharay

Personally I think it may have been done to encompass the variations in the language and not favour one particular dialect over the other.

[dalsingh101]

Could someone shed some light on my questions?

Another question:

Most people I've heard recite Chaupai Sahi say "sagree srisat dhikhaee achanbhav" while Taksali Singh's and people who have taken Santhiya say "sigree srisat dhikhaee achanbhav".

Is it sagree or sigree?

I noticed this as well.

I've began to feel that it's easy to get embroiled in santhiya issues as variations exist. It might be a good idea to choose a school and just stick with it, whilst not getting judgmental with those who may follow another interpretation. Just do your own with full sharda.

I don't know if we have a Kartarpur bir type, definitive recension of the Dasam Granth. I was surprised at minor variations in gutkay myself. When I tried to ask the giani to clarify, he was no help.

Edited June 10, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

My intention wasn't to be judgemental, but it is very important to pronounce Gurbani correct.

Another example is that many people say "anand sunoh vadhbhageehoo sagal manorath pooray" but that's wrong. It's "anad sunoh.." not anand.

ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥

[SURYADEV]

I was looking in 2 gutke about the pauree that is in japji sahib and rehraas sahib. In japji sahib it says "kar kar vekhai keeta aapna jiv tis dee vadiiaai" and in rehraas sahib it says "kar kar dekhai kitaa apna jio tis dee vadiiaaii".

Sorry for being ignorant, but isn't it suppose to be the exact same pauree from japji sahib in rehraas sahib?

you are refering to Pauri 27, Sodar.

This single pauri appears three, possibly 4 times in the SGGS. In Japji sahib first then later in the So Dar pauri. Each time it is different in letters used and words are slightly interchanged. There are several differences in the pauri from japji to reheras sahib. Generally the are more words added in the reheras. The underlying definitions remain the same.

[SURYADEV]

I was looking in 2 gutke about the pauree that is in japji sahib and rehraas sahib. In japji sahib it says "kar kar vekhai keeta aapna jiv tis dee vadiiaai" and in rehraas sahib it says "kar kar dekhai kitaa apna jio tis dee vadiiaaii".

Sorry for being ignorant, but isn't it suppose to be the exact same pauree from japji sahib in rehraas sahib?

you are refering to Pauri 27, Sodar.

This single pauri appears three, possibly 4 times in the SGGS. In Japji sahib first then later in the So Dar pauri. Each time it is different in letters used and words are slightly interchanged. There are several differences in the pauri from japji to reheras sahib. Generally the are more words added in the reheras. The underlying definitions remain the same.

[SURYADEV]

My intention wasn't to be judgemental, but it is very important to pronounce Gurbani correct.

Another example is that many people say "anand sunoh vadhbhageehoo sagal manorath pooray" but that's wrong. It's "anad sunoh.." not anand.

ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥

The latter is the correct way of pronouncing it. As DAlsingh stated different schools have differing ways of reciting. find one school and stick to it, unless you wish to make a study of all the variants of pronounciations. I've heard of some guys in India who have apent their whole lives just doing santhia from all the different schools, sampardas, pandits, gianis etc.

You will find that Sikh Missionary College students always put in plenty of bindi's and tipi's. Lots of nasal 'N' sounds in their version of reciting. Even gutke printed by them is full of biindi's and tipi's whereas other gutke will not have these. I personally think that SMC santhia is very lazy. You don't have to put the effort in to get the correct sounds out of your mouth.

Even amongst the respected schools you will find differences, such as DDT and Harkowal wale sant's pronounciation.

[dalsingh101]

My intention wasn't to be judgemental, but it is very important to pronounce Gurbani correct.

Another example is that many people say "anand sunoh vadhbhageehoo sagal manorath pooray" but that's wrong. It's "anad sunoh.." not anand.

ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥

I too used to pronounce that last one wrong for a while because I thought the printer had forgotten to to put the small nasal 'n' symbol thing in (what's it called?)

Pronunciation is very important but given that we have a number of schools that have different opinions on this today, it's difficult to absolutely put your foot down and say 'this way is unequivocally the correct way!'

That's why I think the faith thing is important. I mean if Bhagat Dhanna got where he got to worshiping a stone, I'm sure Waheguru will forgive us a few minor mispronunciations. That doesn't mean we purposefully get slack btw, just that sometimes we will have differing opinions on the matter and to be frank, sometimes I struggle to pronounce sounds I find difficult too!

Besides, what if someone with a lisp was to get into bani and could never pronounce the 's' properly - ever, I'm sure Akal Purakh wouldn't hold it against him/her?

[SURYADEV]

Besides, what if someone with a lisp was to get into bani and could never pronounce the 's' properly - ever, I'm sure Akal Purakh wouldn't hold it against him/her?

lol

Now that would be a thame!

[G.Kaur]

Thanks for the clarification, Suryadev.

Dal, even Panj Pyare tell the abhilakhees at an Amrit Sanchar that those who are un-parh do not need to do nitnem (it's best if they learn to read Gurmukhi but if they can't learn it, it's okay) and they can do Vaheguroo Simran instead. I don't think you will be punished for a few minor mispronunciations, but that's not an excuse for not learning the right pronunciation.

[Mithar]

I personally think that SMC santhia is very lazy. You don't have to put the effort in to get the correct sounds out of your mouth.

Even amongst the respected schools you will find differences, such as DDT and Harkowal wale sant's pronounciation.

How is the bindi-nasal sound school lazy? you need to put a lot of effort to know where to pronounce the visheshdhunis(bindi) and nasal sounds where as the Sampradai school pronounce it as it is written with the lagamatra, effort is not needed since you simply do ucharan of all the lagmatra and pronounce none of the visheshdhunis. Also I don't think that the school of ucharan which pronounce visheshdunis and nasal sounds are all SMC. A lot of non SMC Sikhs also use the same school of ucharan and do not agree with the SMC.

regardless of which school of ucharan one follows, they are all beautiful in their own way. Both have very convincing reasons for their schools.

[SURYADEV]

How is the bindi-nasal sound school lazy? you need to put a lot of effort to know where to pronounce the visheshdhunis(bindi) and nasal sounds where as the Sampradai school pronounce it as it is written with the lagamatra, effort is not needed since you simply do ucharan of all the lagmatra and pronounce none of the visheshdhunis. Also I don't think that the school of ucharan which pronounce visheshdunis and nasal sounds are all SMC. A lot of non SMC Sikhs also use the same school of ucharan and do not agree with the SMC.

regardless of which school of ucharan one follows, they are all beautiful in their own way. Both have very convincing reasons for their schools.

From SMC guys i've spoken to they actually first off say not to get too hung up on specifics of santhia. Also IMO when they do place bindi/tipis at places just so its easier to pronounce.

Now that you have mentioned 'visheshdhunis' could you pls elaborate? First time i've heard of that term.

[chatanga1]

The pauri that g kaur is refering to so dar keha, is written differntly every time it was revealed through holy mouth of Guru Sahib. Guru revealed on 3 (i think) different occasions and there were slight differences in each one. Kam Singh knows more about this. hopefully he will explain.

This is not the only verse, there are a few other similiar verses in Aad Guru, which are almost completely similiar.

[Kam1825]

Quick answer the Sodar appears on three occaision in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I will list them chronologically,

First was uttered in Sachkhand and appears in the Rehraas,

Second was uttered after Guru Nanak Dev Ji came out of the River Beas and Babe Nanaki asked about the abode of God, this So Dar appears at the start of Raag Asa

Third was uttered with the discourse with the Sids at the Mount Sumer.

The differences are linguistical as you will find when we talk about things in the present, near past and distant past, bascially the rehraas is describing everything in the present tense, (the abode IS, this IS) the Raag Asa is (it was, it was) and the Jap Ji is the same (It was, was) the differences are only this the arths remain similar apart from the antreev arths and anubhavi arths.

Hope that clears that one up.

With the Sagree Srisht and Sigree Srtisht. Presonally the arths make sence with sagree. All the Dasam Birs i have read say Sagree but for some reason the taksalis have sigree, someone told me that goes back to the paath found in the gutka of either Bhai Mani Singh or Baba Deep Singh Ji.

[chatanga1]

With the Sagree Srisht and Sigree Srtisht. Presonally the arths make sence with sagree. All the Dasam Birs i have read say Sagree but for some reason the taksalis have sigree, someone told me that goes back to the paath found in the gutka of either Bhai Mani Singh or Baba Deep Singh Ji.

Yes Giani Thakur Singh has explained this in one of his katha's that the current teaching of Sri Dasam Guru, comes from the saroop that they have had for long time, which also says:

SavGun instead of many gutka which say ShivGun, in the same Bani.

[G.Kaur]

I too used to pronounce that last one wrong for a while because I thought the printer had forgotten to to put the small nasal 'n' symbol thing in (what's it called?)

Pronunciation is very important but given that we have a number of schools that have different opinions on this today, it's difficult to absolutely put your foot down and say 'this way is unequivocally the correct way!'

That's why I think the faith thing is important. I mean if Bhagat Dhanna got where he got to worshiping a stone, I'm sure Waheguru will forgive us a few minor mispronunciations. That doesn't mean we purposefully get slack btw, just that sometimes we will have differing opinions on the matter and to be frank, sometimes I struggle to pronounce sounds I find difficult too!

Besides, what if someone with a lisp was to get into bani and could never pronounce the 's' properly - ever, I'm sure Akal Purakh wouldn't hold it against him/her?

It's called tippi.

Thanks for the help, kam1825.

Edited June 20, 2011 by G.Kaur