Are Sikhs Becoming Too Liberal?

[kdsingh80]

http://thelangarhall.com/

I just saw this topic and was surprised that the woman in Middle Tejpreet Kaur is dressed in that way .This woman is associated with sikhcoalition from past 10 years.Even few bollywood heroines dress in that when they are on Talk yet she went to speak on Sikh faith in that way? If Sikh woman which are associated with Sikh organisations dress in this and that too on TV Then is it any wonder people complain that young sikh Girls are nor dressing appropriately

Edited June 14, 2011 by kdsingh80

[Guest]

Our women and women in general are becoming victim of western sexualization where putting toxic make up on the body/waxing legs makes them feel good about themselves all in the name of pleasing empty bankrupt society surrounding them and pleasing men who think about women with their penis as opposed with their heart.

[HSD1]

Lets cut off her legs!! Yeah that'll teach her.

Oh BTW

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35088277@N05/3256249868/

What's up with those women on the balcony?

Edited June 14, 2011 by HSD 2

[Mithar]

Lets cut off her legs!! Yeah that'll teach her.

Oh BTW

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35088277@N05/3256249868/

What's up with those women on the balcony?

That is classical orientalist art. Look for them online, they always make eastern peoples look the same.

[kdsingh80]

Our women and women in general are becoming victim of western sexualization where putting toxic make up on the body/waxing legs makes them feel good about themselves all in the name of pleasing empty bankrupt society surrounding them and pleasing men who think about women with their penis as opposed with their heart.

Well if she could have been any Sikh woman then I couldn't care but she is associated with Sikhcoalition

and doing community service.She went on show to talk about women and Sikhi and is this the way she dresses?

People criticise bollywood heroines for exposing but atleast they don't talk about religion on shows

[dalsingh101]

We get liberal where we probably shouldn't and backward arse where we desperately need to get liberal.

Welcome to the crazy world of Sikhs.

[kdsingh80]

We get liberal where we probably shouldn't and backward arse where we desperately need to get liberal.

Welcome to the crazy world of Sikhs.

Yeh the day is not too far when some crazy mona sikh with shorts and six pack abs with whisky in his hand will be preachng gurbani

[dalsingh101]

Yeh the day is not too far when some crazy mona sikh with shorts and six pack abs with whisky in his hand will be preachng gurbani

I wouldn't go that far.

[kdsingh80]

I wouldn't go that far.

so you have six pack abs?

[dalsingh101]

so you have six pack abs?

More like a one pack. Which is much better than the 'keg' I had a few years ago and many sardars seem to commonly sport....

Haven't had 'packs' in a few years... lol

Anyway, back to seriousness. Personally I think in time you may well get sehajdhari parchaar. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not hard to envisage a time when more and more people sort of move away from the hot house, Panjabcentric, politicised flavour of Sikhi to something more...well....sehaj! I think people are getting more and more interested in the philosophical/theological aspects of Sikhi as opposed to the politics.

I wonder if this has always been the case in some respect? Represented by the distinction between Khulasa and Khalsa Sikhs noticed by early goray in Panjab.

Edited June 14, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Anyway, back to seriousness. Personally I think in time you may well get sehajdhari parchaar. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not hard to envisage a time when more and more people sort of move away from the hot house, Panjabcentric, politicised flavour of Sikhi to something more...well....sehaj! I think people are getting more and more interested in the philosophical/theological aspects of Sikhi as opposed to the politics.

I don't understand what are you trying to say? Sehajdhari prachar is okay but is it okay the way she appear?

[dalsingh101]

I don't understand what are you trying to say? Sehajdhari prachar is okay but is it okay the way she appear?

A point is that respectable parchaar by monay may well prove to be a strong weapon to counter the ever increasingly slide into outright western liberalism. Especially if these people are the most susceptible to go that way?

To you in India, that women in the image may seem gaspingly risque, but as someone brought up in London, I have to confess, I see Sikh girls dressed worse than that all the time, so you get sort of desensitized to this stuff. When most of the apneean you've met at work seem to be dating goray, sullay, etc. and you see tarted up apneean out on the lash every Friday night seeing a picture like that doesn't have much impact.

Edited June 14, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

That is classical orientalist art. Look for them online, they always make eastern peoples look the same.

Well its based on an actual scene as seen by the man who developed the lithograph. The British themselves often refer to how unconservative most indian societies, including sikhs, tended to be. What surprises me is that the usual suspects who claim sikhs are only prudish AKJ types because of the victorians havent all jumped on KDS's back.

[kdsingh80]

A point is that respectable parchaar by monay may well prove to be a strong weapon to counter the ever increasingly slide into outright western liberalism.

At present very large percentage of sikh women are in list of monean as they slightly trim or make their eyebrows.Anyway I am not against it.

To you in India, that women in the image may seem gaspingly risque, but as someone brought up in London, I have to confess, I see Sikh girls dressed worse than that all the time, so you get sort of desensitized to this stuff. When most of the apneean you've met at work seem to be dating goray, sullay, etc. seeing a picture like that doesn't have much impact.

You mean sikh girls which are associted with sikh organisations also dress in that way? when they talk on about sikhism on TV they also dress in this way?

she is not an average Sikh Girl

and if you think sikh girls in India are not liberal then read this

http://wonderwoman.intoday.in/wonderwoman/story1/88932/Fashionista/first-bare-shoot.html

Women who posed topless

The fact that my parents had seen the concept photo and had actually said 'hey, you'll look good posing like this' went a long way in making me shed my initial inhibitions, if any.

[dalsingh101]

You mean sikh girls which are associted with sikh organisations also dress in that way? when they talk on about sikhism on TV they also dress in this way?

I don't know. I think Sikh coalition is an advocate group in the states. For all we know she could be an intern who ended up there as part of a long term career plan?

The way I see it, if kurian are inevitably going to do this (and they are whether we like it or not), getting them to actually help the community is not a bad thing. I understand that people might argue that she sets a bad precedent for other apneean, but we've got hordes of kurian doing that so why pick on her. If anything she is probably better than the average career obsessed, westernised apnee because at least she maintains some link to her heritage and helps her own community out. In London I'd say apneean are possibly the worse when it comes to selling out and running away from their culture from what I've seen. So from another perspective this one actually has commendable attributes.

she is not an average Sikh Girl

I don't know what is in this day and age? It differs from place to place, subdemographic to subdemographic. Our lot aren't the type to conform into some type very easily.

and if you think sikh girls in India are not liberal then read this

http://wonderwoman.intoday.in/wonderwoman/story1/88932/Fashionista/first-bare-shoot.html

Women who posed topless

The fact that my parents had seen the concept photo and had actually said 'hey, you'll look good posing like this' went a long way in making me shed my initial inhibitions, if any.

It just reinforces what thoughts I had on the matter. I'd still say that coalition girl is better than the topless one.

Edited June 14, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Well its based on an actual scene as seen by the man who developed the lithograph. The British themselves often refer to how unconservative most indian societies, including sikhs, tended to be. What surprises me is that the usual suspects who claim sikhs are only prudish AKJ types because of the victorians havent all jumped on KDS's back.

Come on man, he would have tried to capture an image that was striking and of interest to the orientalist mind.

If I recall rightly those women were prostitutes by the way. But it is an interesting point to note that under M. Ranjit Singh, there seems to have been a liberal attitude towards them. In fact some contemporary whitey actually describes him as their 'patron' what ever that means.....

He probably had hoes in area codes.... lol

Edited June 14, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

The way I see it, if kurian are inevitably going to do this (and they are whether we like it or not), getting them to actually help the community is not a bad thing. I understand that people might argue that she sets a bad precedent for other apneean, but we've got hordes of kurian doing that so why pick on her. If anything she is probably better than the average career obsessed, westernised apnee because at least she maintains some link to her heritage and helps her own community out. In London I'd say apneean are possibly the worse when it comes to selling out and running away from their culture from what I've seen. So from another perspective this one actually has commendable attributes.

It is not about what she is doing good or bad .Its good that she is associated with sikh organisation

but the fact is when you decide to join Sikh a organisation you have maintain some standard as you influence others.How about a drunkard ,corrupt womaniser in Sikh coalition? would you say he is better than average turbaned sikh who do nothing?

It just reinforces what thoughts I had on the matter. I'd still say that coalition girl is better than the topless one.

Atleast the topless is not going to represnt sikhism in any TV show

[Mithar]

Well its based on an actual scene as seen by the man who developed the lithograph. The British themselves often refer to how unconservative most indian societies, including sikhs, tended to be. What surprises me is that the usual suspects who claim sikhs are only prudish AKJ types because of the victorians havent all jumped on KDS's back.

Orientalism is a subject many eastern people need to be aware of because we automatically assume western orientalist depiction of eastern peoples (which are usually overly exotic) in nature to be true and accurate.

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

Edited June 14, 2011 by Mithar

[dalsingh101]

It is not about what she is doing good or bad .Its good that she is associated with sikh organisation

but the fact is when you decide to join Sikh a organisation you have maintain some standard as you influence others.How about a drunkard ,corrupt womaniser in Sikh coalition? would you say he is better than average turbaned sikh who do nothing?

See this is a very interesting and very pertinent topic. I watched the film Schindler's List a while a go and it struck me that the man the film is based upon (Schindler) was promiscuous, a womeniser, a drinker and what not. Things that our society would consider quite negative in a person's character. Yet despite that, the risks he took and the unquestionable good he did in trying to protect very vulnerable people outshone all that in my opinion. That's how I've come to view our own M. Ranjit Singh's with his foibles as well. He wasn't a perfect man, but he was a very useful one.

The problem with all this lies in the fact that what will happen is that some Sikhs will almost guaranteed use this type of argument to justify every personally slack behaviour they engage in. Something everyone should be rightfully concerned about. But where and what is that line between recognising and accounting for human weaknesses/nature and outright hypocrisy?

A related question regards practical usefulness of someone who may be personally disciplined and looks the part (with roop) but absolutely lacks the ability to push, promote and convince in an outward direction. What we get then is safe but 'inert' spokespeople, which, it could be argued, just perpetuates our political/social powerlessness in the modern world. Are people happy with that?

Yes sure, in an ideal world all our spokespeople would be ideal Sikhs in all ways, especially the physical roop but a part of me which is frustrated at our lack of traction in the modern world finds it hard to hide from the reality that the best people for particular jobs in our community may not meet these standards. What shall we do then? Shall we resist and prevent any 'liberalisation' in terms of the people we choose for particular roles because of this?

Even more frustrating is that I can see no clear answer, conservative critiques to what I'm highlighting are as valid as the argument. It's a difficult choice but how long can we continue as we are?

I would add that arguments along the lines of "we may cause a 'dam burst' of bad behaviour" by liberalising may well already be moot as from where I'm standing it looks like the dam was broken a while ago. We just ignored it in our characteristic way.

Thought: Jinnah was a drinking, coconut sullah who managed to secure his people's sovereignity. Are there lessons to learn from that?

Both the conservative and liberal perspective seems to have positives and negatives from what I can see right now??

Atleast the topless is not going to represnt sikhism in any TV show

Using Kaur publically in your name like that could be argued as doing that very thing?

Edited June 14, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

See this is a very interesting and very pertinent topic. I watched the film Schindler's List a while a go and it struck me that the man the film is based upon (Schindler) was promiscuous, a womeniser, a drinker and what not. Things that our society would consider quite negative in a person's character. Yet despite that, the risks he took and the unquestionable good he did in trying to protect very vulnerable people outshone all that in my opinion. That's how I've come to view our own M. Ranjit Singh's with his foibles as well. He wasn't a perfect man, but he was a very useful one.

Your post raises lots of question.On one side we can be bad but on other we can be good ,then what is wrong in corruption? Indians are perfect example of this ,on one hand they do lots daan pun but at same time they take bribe.Sikhi advocate simple lifestyle but we all know simple lifestyle could not make you millionare ,one can say that by I can earn millions and from that part of that million I can open sikh schools and do lot of bhala for my community

Similarly then what is wrong in crime.Many criminals just kidnap or threaten corrupt business men because they feel that they have corrupt money ,what's wrong in choosing robinhood type lifestle?

The big question arises is there any benefit if we choose simple honest lifestyle or we should earn money fulfill all our desires but at same time do good for our community

Yes sure, in an ideal world all our spokespeople would be ideal Sikhs in all ways, especially the physical roop but a part of me which is frustrated at our lack of traction in the modern world finds it hard to hide from the reality that the best people for particular jobs in our community may nt meet these standards. What shall we do then? Shall we resist and prevent any 'liberalisation' in terms of the people we choose for particular roles because of this?

I am sure we all agree that modesty especially for women is part of our religion.Let me give you example

Cricketer Harbhajan singh started his career at 17 in Indian team by 21 he became star though he always kept

thin beard and Patka.In 2005 He walked ramp with his hair down for which SGPC scolded him,though he did say anything but just replied that if they consider me icon why never they rewarded him,anyway after that 1 day i saw that his joora became quite small ,quite sure he altered the length ,but still kepep on earing Patka,the question is why is he doing all this ,Only for emotions of sikhs ,if he discard his patka and become a complete mona then there will be huge upoar among Sikhs and many sikhs will be totally heartbroken when they saw him in Mona image

At the same time another cricketer Reetinder singh sodhi was selected but he ended up as failure.he too was like Harbhajan Patka and thin beard last time I saw him playing a club match he became a mona.

my brother always say that if Harbhajan would have been failure he could have become a mona

anyway my point is Why a woman need to dress like a bollywood heroine when she is going for interview on sikhism,just to show world how modern she is ,how liberated she is or what is the reason? Can't she sacrifice few moments for her life by dressing modestly for interview?

Using Kaur publically in your name like that could be argued as doing that very thing?

A lot of models use singhs and kaurs nothing special in it.As long she keeps sikhism out of her career no one is going to care

Edited June 14, 2011 by kdsingh80

[kdsingh80]

As far schindler is concerned we all know he saw some of worst brutality,this could change lots of people's mind

we cannot compare any other humans who have seen brutalities of with other Humns

also Maharaja ranjit singh is presented to 99% sikhs in fairytale style ,my Bhua use to say Ranjit warga vi Gursikh koyi hoye gaa as she always use to rely on oral katha's which Gurdwara's tell

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

It is inappropriate to dress in this way and talk about religion.

The dress she is wearing gives off a certain impression which is sexually arousing.

Whilst sending out this impression she is mixing this impression with religious ideas.

It is like mixing whisky with milk -- a bad combination sure to give you indigestion.

[kdsingh80]

The same tejpreet Kaur in different look

[HSD1]

Orientalism is a subject many eastern people need to be aware of because we automatically assume western orientalist depiction of eastern peoples (which are usually overly exotic) in nature to be true and accurate.

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

Ok, I'll grant that I cant be sure what the mentality of those lithographers was. But my point is that Liberalism and Conservatism are two sides that the pendulum of a nation swings between. In times of war people are stoic, in times of defeat some become hedonistic, in times of luxury they are pampered, in times of strife they are rugged. The Sikh Coalition does a lot of work acting as the face of sikh justice and equality in the US. Now its not surprising they wear what is traditional office attire. To someone from hindustan it may seem they are letting out their inner slut - but that would be a one-dimensional take. Living over here, I know some women wear it because that is workplace fashion, for all races and religions. Get on the tube before 9 or after 5 and you'll see it. For some women its about looking good, not just to attract men, but to cover their self esteem issues. For other women its almost like an arms race against other younger go-getting women in the workplace. I could go on, but to put it all down to sex is just bizarre. Anyway, women dressing like that isnt as bad as somethings that I've seen and it's one in the eye to all those who think sikh men oppress their women by controlling what they wear.

Edited June 15, 2011 by HSD 2

[HSD1]

It is inappropriate to dress in this way and talk about religion.

The dress she is wearing gives off a certain impression which is sexually arousing.

Whilst sending out this impression she is mixing this impression with religious ideas.

It is like mixing whisky with milk -- a bad combination sure to give you indigestion.

Well the skeletons are certainly coming out of the closet now arent they MJ?

Edited June 14, 2011 by HSD 2