paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 And despite whatever Paapi says about 'patits' many still have a very deep (And real!) affinity with the underlying ideas of Khalsaness. Amritdharis of old are a source of inspiration to them. Modern day 'equivalents' like Paapiman just moot all over a beautiful legacy.There might be many patits out there, who might be willing to sacrifice their lives for the panth. I don't deny that and I greatly appreciate their courage, but still they cannot be classified as Sikhs, according to Gurmat.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 There might be many patits out there, who might be willing to sacrifice their lives for the panth. I don't deny that and I greatly appreciate their courage, but still they cannot be classified as Sikhs, according to Gurmat.Bhul chuk maafMaharaja Ranjit singh was alchohol drinker , adulterous , meat eater . Yet sikhs all over world proudly claim his kingdom as sikh kingdom and him as great sikh king . People like you put a petetion to all sikh scholars and sikh bodies that maharaja Ranjit singh was not sikh and never ever there was sikh kingdom , don't teach any young sikh about Maharaja ranjit singh as he was not sikh. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Maharaja Ranjit singh was alchohol drinker , adulterous , meat eater . Yet sikhs all over world proudly claim his kingdom as sikh kingdom and him as great sikh king . People like you put a petetion to all sikh scholars and sikh bodies that maharaja Ranjit singh was not sikh and never ever there was sikh kingdom , don't teach any young sikh about Maharaja ranjit singh as he was not sikh.So what, if he was a patit? He was a great leader of men and had immense love for Satguru jee. He made some mistakes in his life, but look at what he did for us.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Boy, I remember a few decades ago when goray and kalay would knock people's paghs off, or pull off their jooras for fun. The main people who would step up to the bullies would be monay Sikhs. Respect for those monay veer, who stood up for Sikhi.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Respect for those monay veer, who stood up for Sikhi.Bhul chuk maafYou respect them by denying them their Sikh identity.... What a dick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 You respect them by denying them their Sikh identity.... What a dick.Gurmat rules cannot be changed---made by our father. I would have respected a non-Sikh too, if he would have stood up for Sikhi. That does not mean, I should start calling him a Sehajdhari.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Where in the Guru Granth Sahib does it say kesh is a requirement for being a Sikh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Where in the Guru Granth Sahib does it say kesh is a requirement for being a Sikh?It indirectly says to have a guru; by looking down on Niguray. Gurbani says, even the name of a "Nigura" is bad. How do we adopt a guru in Sikhi - most common way - Khanday da amrit.Bro, requirement of Kesh might be mentioned in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee.Bhul chul maaf Edited July 12, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 So you are saying that if a SIkh commits paap, then he is no longer a sikh? The Guru also says to pay daswandh - does that mean if you dont pay your daswandh, you are no longer a sikh? If a Sikh does'nt work for a living, is he no longer a Sikh then? What do you make of this?ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25|| 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) So you are saying that if a SIkh commits paap, then he is no longer a sikh? The Guru also says to pay daswandh - does that mean if you dont pay your daswandh, you are no longer a sikh? If a Sikh does'nt work for a living, is he no longer a Sikh then?One cannot compare cutting kesh (one of the cardinal sins) in Sikhi, to daswandh or working for a living.If a person commits, any one of the four cardinal sins (Bajjar kurehits), then he/she become a patit. Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 12, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) I believe there are tons of coward amritdharis, disgusting.Crystal There IS that kid who laid a beating on the gora who was making fun of him in the street... (there was a video posted of it awhile back) what I find funny are a lot of Sikhs condemned the fact that he laid such a beating on the guy. He didn't actually hurt him, more like embarrassed the heck out of him, and that kid won't bother him anymore! So true bro! So true....<sadly>And I've said it before, that modern day weakness HAS played a big part in emboldening outsiders to specifically targeting lulloo Sikh girls for conversion or sexual abuse. Umm that's not the only reason... Let's just say casteism (When Sikhi touts itself being against caste) is not the only issue that is turning people away. Like it or not, sexism (when Sikhi touts equal gender rights) is driving women away and that has much more to do with it than men not acting as brutes. In fact it doesn't even have anything to do with the men, but instead of teaching girls to also defend themselves, and be courageous, a Kaur... they are taught to be submissive, subservient and reliant on men for protection. I have seen both Sikh girls who could compete with the best guys at Gatka, and also girls taught to be submissive housewives too. The ones taught to be submissive are the targets because they don't know how to stand up for themselves. But lets not change the subject... My friend's dad just kind of pushed her into a marriage proposal because they are the same caste. She doesn't like the guy at all and may call it off unless she learns to like him before they marry. But caste was the deciding factor... they are both Rhamgaria. I hear stories like this and makes me sad. Edited July 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 The four bujjar kurehits apply for the Khalsa only. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) The four bujjar kurehits apply for the Khalsa only.Bro, it applies to all Sikhs. It does not apply to Sehajdhari Hindus/Muslims, etc.There is no difference between Sikh panth and Khalsa panth.Anyways, let's stay on the topic.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 13, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Umm that's not the only reason... Let's just say casteism (When Sikhi touts itself being against caste) is not the only issue that is turning people away. Like it or not, sexism (when Sikhi touts equal gender rights) is driving women away and that has much more to do with it than men not acting as brutes. In fact it doesn't even have anything to do with the men, but instead of teaching girls to also defend themselves, and be courageous, a Kaur... they are taught to be submissive, subservient and reliant on men for protection. I have seen both Sikh girls who could compete with the best guys at Gatka, and also girls taught to be submissive housewives too. The ones taught to be submissive are the targets because they don't know how to stand up for themselves. But lets not change the subject... Please, stay on the topic. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss gender inequality in Sikhism.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 12, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 . You said legs change the subject but I have to comment. I have to disagree with you....some Singh's are just cowards,maharaj said learn shastar vidiya why aren't we doing so? Learning martial arts is key to being a Singh and kaur, if you posses no vidiya like I said in a previous post you should not wear a kirpan. Most Sikhs would get beat down and killed by most youngsters with street mentality because they are ruthless. Read purtan accounts of Singh's how ruthless they were, what have we become now? Shook cats. I don't know where you live but I know plently of Singh's who teach their daughters sva raksha and also how to use a kara.Those who teach their daughters to be timid are just asking for dirty sulleh to take advantage. Ha what use is gatka? There is no actual fighting involved just hitting sword on sheild. Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Please read the below verses, regarding a high caste saint and a low caste saint. It seems that Maharaaj has given more respect to a low caste saint. Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Sahib Maharaaj Gurbani verse for a high caste saint: ਜਾਤਿ ਕੁਲੀਨੁ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇ ॥If someone of high social standing becomes a selfless servant,ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਹਹੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥then his praises cannot even be expressed. Gurbani verse for a low caste saint: ਵਿਚਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥And if someone from a low social class becomes a selfless servant,ਨਾਨਕ ਪਣ੍ਹੀਆ ਪਹਿਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੧॥੬॥O Nanak, he shall wear shoes of my skin. Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 12, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Okay so you at least agree with me, its not just Singhs that need to learn self defence... I think we are in agreement actually... I don't see how we are disagreeing LOL. I said that both girls and boys need to learn martial arts / self defence. And that not teaching these things to girls is what is opening them to being targeted... if it wasn't clear in my last post that's what I meant :) that teaching girls to be timid and submissive opens them up to grooming, conversions etc. But I am right about is not being the only reason. I personally know several girls (Punjabi) who married out of Sikhi and converted (both to Christianity) because they were fed up with being told they were equal in Sikhism, but then finding that they were limited compared to the boys in many ways. What's really ironic is that I LEFT Christianity for some of the same reasons, but seeing Sikhi without the cultural goggles, I can separate culture from the religion. And caste is also part of that. My best friend, I mentioned above, background is Ramgharia, and it's fine with recognizing the family background as it pertains to what your family historically did for work etc. Where it's wrong is to discriminate based on it. Her potential future husband choice should not be based on that. Though I think she may go against her father on this in the end... but caste seems to be very common issue still with Punjabi born Sikhs, mostly those still in India. Hopefully with time it will die out... Please, stay on the topic. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss gender inequality in Sikhism.Bhul chuk maafyou are one to talk Paapiman! LOL Read my LAST line in that last message. I had said let's not get off topic! So trying to scorn me means nothing! And you are the one getting into arguments about kesh and who is sikh or not, when that has nothing to do with the thread! You are being a hypocrite! Your posts are really getting annoying, not just to me but others as well. Please leave the moderating to the actual moderators! Edited July 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 you are one to talk Paapiman! LOL Read my LAST line in that last message. I had said let's not get off topic! So trying to scorn me means nothing! And you are the one getting into arguments about kesh and who is sikh or not, when that has nothing to do with the thread! You are being a hypocrite! Your posts are really getting annoying, not just to me but others as well. Please leave the moderating to the actual moderators! I am not forcing anyone to read my posts. Please use Gurbani to prove me wrong.Sometimes, truth hurts. It really hurts bad, which becomes annoying.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 you are one to talk Paapiman! LOL Read my LAST line in that last message. I had said let's not get off topic! So trying to scorn me means nothing! And you are the one getting into arguments about kesh and who is sikh or not, when that has nothing to do with the thread! You are being a hypocrite! Let's stay on topic. If anyone wants to discuss about monay, please start a new topic.Bhul chuk maafThe above was on page 1. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Gurbani verses, regarding caste. ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੩੩॥O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33|| ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਮਜਾਤਿ ॥Those who forget their Lord and Master are vile and despicable. ਨੀਚਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਨੀਚੀ ਹੂ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਚੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਡਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਰੀਸ ॥Nanak seeks the company of the lowest of the low class, the very lowest of the low. Why should he try to compete with the great? ਦੇਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਏ ॥Her body and her status shall not go with her to the world hereafter. ਹਮਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਹਮ ਵੇਚਿਓ ਸਿਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ॥The Guru, the True Guru, is my social status and honor; I have sold my head to the Guru. ਕਬੀਰ ਸੋਈ ਕੁਲ ਭਲੀ ਜਾ ਕੁਲ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਦਾਸੁ ॥Kabeer, that family is good, in which the Lord's slave is born.ਜਿਹ ਕੁਲ ਦਾਸੁ ਨ ਊਪਜੈ ਸੋ ਕੁਲ ਢਾਕੁ ਪਲਾਸੁ ॥੧੧੧॥But that family in which the Lord's slave is not born is as useless as weeds. ||111|| ਕਿਆ ਹਉ ਆਖਾ ਜਾਂ ਕਛੂ ਨਾਹਿ ॥What can I say? I am nothing.ਜਾਤਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ॥੩॥All my status and honor are in Your Name. ||3|| ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ ॥In the dwelling of the womb, there is no ancestry or social status.ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ ॥੧॥All have originated from the Seed of God. ||1|| ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥Social status and beauty will not go with you hereafter.ਤੇਹਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ ॥As are the deeds done here, so does one become. ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool!ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause|| ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) You respect them by denying them their Sikh identity.... What a dick.What better way is there for enemies of Sikhi to make the Sikh Panth so demographically small as to be politically irrelavant?What's amusing is that it is dressed up superficially as respect for Sikhi (despite it being blatantly against the ethos of Sarbat da Bhala and purely only serving to strengthen the Hindutva agenda).And sadly some of our people unwittingly imbibe this de facto anti-Sikh agenda of making Sikhs a smaller minority both unable to protect themselves nor serve the wider world and humanity where the Khalsa Panth should be at the forefront of doing where Ebola, floods, earthquakes, genocide, modern day slavery etc are happening. Edited July 13, 2015 by mrsingh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 What's amusing is that it is dressed up superficially as respect for Sikhi (despite it being blatantly against the ethos of Sarbat da Bhala and purely only serving to strengthen the Hindutva agenda).Sarbat da bhalla does not mean that we start calling alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, as Sikhs.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Sarbat da bhalla does not mean that we start calling alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, as Sikhs.Bhul chuk maafNo in fact it does Paapi man.Those paapi's like yourself that drink, smoke, eat meat, use drugs, cut their hair are actually the vast overwhelming majority of the Punjab population and an even greater percentage of the India population more generally. You wish to exclude and alienate all those that do not mirror your own beliefs as non-Sikhs. The Hindutva forces that oppose Sikhs are delighted by your viewpoint as they mop up every person that you wish to exclude from Sikhi and include them within the Hindu fold. The result being that the Hindutva political base strengthens whilst the Sikh Panth suffers as time goes on.So Sikhs have already been reduced from a 100million plus population that we could have been today down to arguably only1.8% of the Indian population if we include sehajdhari Punjabi-speaking Sikhs. What you propose is to reduce this 1.8% further to 0.18% (only those 10% that keep kes) so that democratically and politically the Sikh Panth has zero power to defend itself from any Genocide and nor have any ability to serve the poor and downtrodden for Sarbat da Bhala. As 0.18% equates to 1 in every 555 people which is powerless minority which will never hold any democratic sway or influence.You need to understand that only by growing the Sikh Panth's population to a critical mass can we best defend ourself from events like 1947 and 1984 and only by having a larger population of the wider Sikh Panth will an enlarged Khalsa Panth population emerge in order to do seva in Punjab, India and worldwide to prevent genocides like Rwanda, to combat Ebola outbreaks, to assist after earthquakes and other natural disasters. By having an enlarge Sikh Panth population which accepts anybody who bows down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as a Sikh, you yourself as a paapi are not prevented from following the beliefs you paapi currently hold. Edited July 13, 2015 by mrsingh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) seems extremely doubtful. with enemies on all sides people tend to forget internal divisions. those things creep back in later, after the dust has settled (during maharaja ranjit singh's raj for example). Such an insanely harsh "punishment" for another sikh, during a time of war and uncertainty, when both high and low have to share food out in the field (during campaigns) anyway??? a fake sakhi imo.Exactly Paji. The sakhi is a fake story. It does not align with what Gurmat teaches us and should be considered as an anti-Sikh sakhi interjected by anti-Sikh forces to weaken the Sikh Panth. kdsingh80 rightfully exposed this false sakhi before others might fall for it. All material which does not align with Gurmat should be exposed and discarded if we are to progress.Amongst the bravest of the brave our Panth has produced were Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji (that our Hindu and Muslims opponents abused and despised when Gurdwara Sis Ganj Sahib Ji was initially constructed as in Hindu and Muslim eyes, Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji was a Bihari choora) and leader of the Sikh Fauj (at Guru Sahib's behest) Shaheed Bhai Sangat Singh who again the Muslims (and the Mughal's Hindu allies) despised as they could not countenance that the Sikh Fauj was being led by what anti-Sikh forces thought of as a degraded chamar.Sikhs nowadays fail to recognise that the Ramgarhia misl had around 90% of its fighters from a non-tarkhan background with the Khalsa warriors in that misl hailing from diverse former backgrounds including Brahmins, Leatherworkers, Rajputs, Mazhabi's, Jatts, Weavers, Saini's, Water Carriers etc all uniting as equals and assigning Jathedari to the most qualified general amongst them (Bhai Jassa Singh).Also instead of bandying about the word brahminwaad so often we should educate more and more Punjabi and non-Punjabi Brahmins as to the bravery of our beloved Sikh shaheeds like Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Sati Das.The only relevance caste should have to us as Sikhs is that should violently despise it as a label and oppose it's use amongst our ranks but nevertheless utilise it's appeal to draw in new Sikhs to the Panth from particularly Hindu backgrounds. Edited July 13, 2015 by mrsingh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) No in fact it does Paapi man.Those paapi's like yourself that drink, smoke, eat meat, use drugs, cut their hair are actually the vast overwhelming majority of the Punjab population and an even greater percentage of the India population more generally. You wish to exclude and alienate all those that do not mirror your own beliefs as non-Sikhs. The Hindutva forces that oppose Sikhs are delighted by your viewpoint as they mop up every person that you wish to exclude from Sikhi and include them within the Hindu fold. The result being that the Hindutva political base strengthens whilst the Sikh Panth suffers as time goes on.So Sikhs have already been reduced from a 100million plus population that we could have been today down to arguably only1.8% of the Indian population if we include sehajdhari Punjabi-speaking Sikhs. What you propose is to reduce this 1.8% further to 0.18% (only those 10% that keep kes) so that democratically and politically the Sikh Panth has zero power to defend itself from any Genocide and nor have any ability to serve the poor and downtrodden for Sarbat da Bhala. As 0.18% equates to 1 in every 555 people which is powerless minority which will never hold any democratic sway or influence.You need to understand that only by growing the Sikh Panth's population to a critical mass can we best defend ourself from events like 1947 and 1984 and only by having a larger population of the wider Sikh Panth will an enlarged Khalsa Panth population emerge in order to do seva in Punjab, India and worldwide to prevent genocides like Rwanda, to combat Ebola outbreaks, to assist after earthquakes and other natural disasters. By having an enlarge Sikh Panth population which accepts anybody who bows down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as a Sikh, you yourself as a paapi are not prevented from following the beliefs you paapi currently hold. rehith binaa(n) nehi sikh kehaavai ||Without Rehat, there is no Sikhi.Bro, changing the basics of our religion, will be the most stupid thing, we could do. It is like Muslims, doing away with circumcision.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 13, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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