SinghMunda Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 Are our lives totally predestined? Because it says a lot in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is, so that must be true. But i've ended up in discussions with others where they say that we do have freewill to do more paath etc to do more prayer, but is this freewill pre destined too? Or has God given us part freewill too to improve our lives to a certain extent, but our lives are pretty much always going to be going in the same direction from the moment of birth? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darshan kaur Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 yeh i tink dey r..its quite a complex topic....God gives u many paths to follow, however he alredy know's everythin...he kn'w's which path u'll take, but still givs u the option...its rele confusin..ne1 wanna clarify it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowest of the low singhni Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 I don't really wanna clarify it as I'm not sure what I'm talking about?........but I thought we were all sorted - God knows every tiny detail about us and our lives.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 SGGS Page 67 Emotional attachment to Maya is shed with intuitive ease, through the Guru's Teachings. Without the Shabad, the world wanders lost in pain. The self-willed manmukh is consumed. Through the Shabad, meditate on the Naam; through the Shabad, you shall merge in Truth. || 4 || The Siddhas wander around, deluded by Maya; they are not absorbed in the Samaadhi of the Lord's Sublime Love. The three worlds are permeated by Maya; they are totally covered by it. Without the Guru, liberation is not attained, and the double-mindedness of Maya does not go away. || 5 || What is called Maya? What does Maya do? These beings are bound by pleasure and pain; they do their deeds in egotism. Without the Shabad, doubt is not dispelled, and egotism is not eliminated from within. || 6 || Without love, there is no devotional worship. Without the Shabad, no one finds acceptance. Through the Shabad, egotism is conquered and subdued, and the illusion of Maya is dispelled. The Gurmukh obtains the Treasure of the Naam with intuitive ease. || 7 || Without the Guru, one's virtues do not shine forth; without virtue, there is no devotional worship. The Lord is the Lover of His devotees; He abides within their minds. They meet that God with intuitive ease. O Nanak, through the Shabad, praise the Lord. By His Grace, He is obtained. || 8 || 4 || 21 || SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt. The self-willed manmukhs perform their actions, but they do not understand; they waste away their lives in vain. Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. || 1 || O mind, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and find peace. Praising the Perfect Guru, you shall easily meet with that God. || 1 || Pause || Doubt departs, and fear runs away, when you focus your consciousness on the Lord's Feet. The Gurmukh practices the Shabad, and the Lord comes to dwell within the mind. In the mansion of the home within the self, we merge in Truth, and the Messenger of Death cannot devour us. || 2 || Naam Dayv the printer, and Kabeer the weaver, obtained salvation through the Perfect Guru. Those who know God and recognize His Shabad lose their ego and class consciousness. Their Banis are sung by the angelic beings, and no one can erase them, O Siblings of Destiny! || 3 || The demon's son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals or ceremonies, austerity or self-discipline; he did not know the love of duality. Upon meeting with the True Guru, he became pure; night and day, he chanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord. He read only of the One and he understood only the One Name; he knew no other at all. || 4 || The followers of the six different life-styles and world-views, the Yogis and the Sanyaasees have gone astray in doubt without the Guru. If they serve the True Guru, they find the state of salvation; they enshrine the Dear Lord within their minds. They focus their consciousness on the True Bani, and their comings and goings in reincarnation are over. || 5 || The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and argue and stir up controversies, but without the Guru, they are deluded by doubt. They wander around the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations; without the Shabad, they do not attain liberation. But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. || 6 || 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinghMunda Posted July 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 But is everthing "freewill" thats pre-destined? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 If everything was pre-destained that their should not have been Karmic System where each of our acts good or bad are accounted for. Because when if everything is pre-destained then there is no need for us to worry about our good or bad Karams as we are supposed to do those acts as per our destiny. Then what does Karmic System means with relation to our destiny? Isn't it contradictory to our interpretation of Destiny and Karmic System ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritam Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Waheguru has given us paths and choices however the ones we wish to follow are up to us. We decide how we are going to attempt things in life and if we are blessed with kirpa i hope we will choose those paths that will make our lifes better and more wholesome. If we do not, i believe we have made these bad choices for a reason. This reason is ultimately something that will come to a good outcome but we must confirm and have faith in Waheguru irrespectively. Guru Granth Sahib Ji will guide you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Is our Kismat predestined??? well kismat means destiny!!! :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritam Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Free-will is just an illusion. Its not there. In reality everything is pre-destined from the very beginning and we do everything from our pre-set karmic tendencies, we cant avoid. Ultimate truth is that everything is a drama staged by God and He has planned everything and does everything the way He likes and the way He wants it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Free will and karma can co-exist quite happily from the perspective of Paraatma being Akaal. Therefore any decision you make can only be pre-ordained hukam. The importance is to RECOGNISE that it is all hukam (surrendering). Those clouded by ego feel it is their decision and action alone. Equally, the extreme rejection of free will as illusion leads to passivity and resignation, something our 10th Nanak rejected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNaDiAn_jAtTi Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Lol.... Kismat.... that's my sister!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 haha maybe ask her if she's predestined....if she is, then there's your answer!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Jjj Free-will is just an illusion. Its not there. In reality everything is pre-destined from the very beginning and we do everything from our pre-set karmic tendencies, we cant avoid. Have you heard of the saakhi where one disciple lives a gursikhi lifestyle where another ‘disciple’ seeks the company of prostitutes? The gursikh trips and cuts himself, while on another occasion the other guy finds a some wealth in the forest. Word gets around and these cases are presented to the Guru (sorry – cant remember which GuruJi). GuruJi reveals that the true disciple should have seriously injured himself, however due to his love for guru, his injury was insignificant. The other ‘sikh’ was supposed to find a pot of gold, but due to his promiscuous activities, didn’t. Moral: Due to their lifestyle they managed to alter (within set boundaries) their kismet Hence free will/choice/outcome is not totally fixed. Ultimate truth is that everything is a drama staged by God and He has planned everything and does everything the way He likes and the way He wants it.Absolutely. But also remember this is waheguru’s khel/tamasa (play), everything is staged accordingly. However using our conscience we’re able to making decisions within the scope of our preordained kismet/destiny- karma. Describe it as a paradox if you will… (pritam also described above) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Here is the above sakhi in details- There were two shopkeepers in guru nanak's time. (A)One shopkeeper close his shop early to go to guru nanak's divan And another ( shop-keeper goes to porstitues... One day when (A) shop-keeper was returnin back from divan he hit the stone in the roadway and he hurt his foot At the same time ( shop-keeper was returnin back from his place...He found treasure of gold & jewelry Next mornin while they were at shop .. shoopkeeper ( asks shoopkeeper (a) you hurt ur feet because you went to listen guru nanak's divan and i went to see porstitute and i got treasure of gold and jewelry on my return home...shoopkeeper(a) got confused and both shoopkepers went to guru nanak to reveal their mystery... Guru Nanak said shopkeper(a) did paaps in last life...you were to supposed to get hang in this life but since you have become relegious and start comin to divan you just gotta away with bruise on ur foot by stone... and then guru nanak replied to shopkeeper ( since you did charity work in ur past life you got ur share now(treasure of gold and jewelry) but however what you doing now ..its seems like you will die in some harsh disease... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Jjj Moral: Due to their lifestyle they managed to alter (within set boundaries) their kismet Hence free will/choice/outcome is not totally fixed. You are looking at it in a logical way and just at the curtain. Its actually fixed. What the two people did.. they were already suppose to do.. but the way they did it just has become a reason to show to the world that it was all in there hands. I mean thats the illusion of free-will.. that it really looks as if it is in your hands, but what you are destined to do you will certainly do it... wether you try to stop it or not .. its all false bahana and nakhra. Everything is pre-destined and people also meet God because of there good pre-destiny. If today I goto prostitutes ... its becoz of my past pre-desined karmic tendencies... and if I say I am changing myself.. its not actually my *free will* that I am changing myself, Guru Ji is actually doing it and it is already fixed that way to happen. I have met people who are very very high Gursikh adn they do all the simran of the world.. but in the next 6 mnoths there mind changes and they become complete prostitute , drunk-yard type of people and I have met people who were prostitute and drunk-yard type of people and became total Gursikh which ppl cant even beleive or had any ummeed (hope) from them ! This is all the play of God. He stages His dramas and makes people dance the way He likes. Theres not even a pint of free-will involved. It is just illusion and thats why it looks real , becoz its illusionary. To say you got free-will .. is like believing in ego only. coz free-will = ego. The best example of this is if you listen to the suleman's tape. In that tape suleman is asked if he himself choose and asked for a sikh birth and actually Suleman said that God had already decided for Him to take a sikh birth, but his asking for a sikh birth was just a reason or a way .. but a sikh birth was already pre-destined for him and his asking meant the samething. God can do what He wants , but to hide Himself.. He makes all these illusions like free-will and ego .. Guru Gobind Singh ji could have destroyed the entire Mughal Force even by taking one person into his army. He could do it alone. He was very powerful. He didnt even need to become a pir and hide from the Mughals, but all these things that they do is just the curtain part to show to the world, if they dont do it .. then it will appear as miracles. So God creates reason. Whatever is destined to happen will happen. Nothing can change rest all is bahana. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 What the two people did.. they were already suppose to do.. but the way they did it just has become a reason to show to the world that it was all in there hands. If they did what they were supposed to do, then why did GuruJi state that one should have been seriously wounded, however due to his devotion to Gurusahib, he was only slightly injured ? (hence his destiny altered) To say you got free-will .. is like believing in ego only. coz free-will = ego. Its not about free-will or ego, but conscience; The ability to distinguish between right and wrong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 If they did what they were supposed to do, then why did GuruJi state that one should have been seriously wounded, however due to his devotion to Gurusahib, he was only slightly injured ? (hence his destiny altered) *********************************************************** u r still looking at the curtain and not the preson behind the curtain who is doing everything. Sorry dude, I am not gonna explain it futhur , as these things one need to realize by himself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joga singh Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 every thing is preplanned by akal purakh,even what we are talking in this forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 exactly Joga Singh. The entire movie is already pre-planned by the director and He has made the entire show the way it pleases Him. We are just actors and actresses and some are villans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 u r still looking at the curtain and not the preson behind the curtain who is doing everything. i think u may have misunserstood me...but no matter...we'll have to agree to disagree Sorry dude, I am not gonna explain it futhur , as these things one need to realize by himself. no need to apologise, truth comes with kirpa... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Even the movement of a blade of grass on a fied is pre-destined by akal purakh. Everything, what you call Free-Will is actually what He desires. If you are destined to do good things, then He wil Himself implant virtue in your mind. Nothing is under our contol. Nothing. Even if we will to do somethig, we cant do it. It all in His Hands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 If everything is pre destained then why our Gurus fought battles... They should have accepted this as a will of the God and should have submitted to the evil... Why did our Gurus not accept the Paana/Razaa/Will of the God? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Our Gurus did not need to fight battles. They were strong enough that they could beat the entire just with one of their sword. Actually this is a good question. All that the Gurus did.. they did it for us. Each and every event of their life is just an example for us. it is a teaching for us to live by. They did not need to do anything basically. Also did you read one of N3O S!NGH'S post.. He is talking about Guru Arjun Dev when He was sitting on the Hot plate. Mian Mir is asking that why is this hapening? and then Mian Mir is told to look at Guru Arjun Dev with his spiritual eye and he sees that it is Guru Arjun Dev Himself who is feeding the fire. It is Guru Arjun Dev who is Himself is sitting on the plate and making himself burn. The best answer to your question is todays hukamnama. so I suggest you read today's hukamnana.. August 24th. Guru Gobind Singh ji also said to Aurangzeb "Aurangzeb, the God that gave you all the wealth and kingdom of the world has also given the power to me to destroy you." If you read the hindu scriptures.. you will find God is the demon, God is the saint, God is the king, God ist he beggar. Read todays' hukamnama. Everything is God. Everything is played by Him. The entire world is a show . its like a drama. Guru Gobidn Singh ji also said in bachittar natak that He has come to witness the world drama. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Also did you read one of N3O S!NGH'S post.. He is talking about Guru Arjun Dev when He was sitting on the Hot plate. Mian Mir is asking that why is this hapening? and then Mian Mir is told to look at Guru Arjun Dev with his spiritual eye and he sees that it is Guru Arjun Dev Himself who is feeding the fire. It is Guru Arjun Dev who is Himself is sitting on the plate and making himself burn. Any documentory proof kae just all manmat... Are you not vindicating Miracles...? when you say such things... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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