dalsingh101 Posted July 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) High Court dismisses SI Surjit Singh’s petition Monday July 8, 2013, Chandigarh: The Punjab & Haryana High Court today dismissed Sub-Inspector Surjit Singh’s petition. The petition anticipated threat to his own life and sought protection for him. The Court counter questioned Surjit Singh’s lawyer as to whether Sub-Inspector Surjit Singh had approached his seniors within the Police for protection, to which Surjit Singh’s lawyer stated they had no faith on the Police. The presiding Judge however was not convinced that Surjit Singh needed protection and dismissed the petition. Punjab Police Sub-Inspector Surjit Singh had recently created a sensation by making claims that he was involved in several encounters during 1993 and that several of those encounters were fake. Surjit Singh had sought direction of the High Court for protection from Punjab Police IG Paramjit Singh Gill and Ranjit Singh Hundal, SSP, Tarn Taran. The petitioner had stated that he had actively participated in four encounters first. In these encounters Sheetal Mattewal, Deputy Chief of Dashmesh Regiment of Khalistan and seven others were killed. Mattewal’s encounter was real but later, his wife Narinder Kaur and two brothers were picked up and killed extra judiciously, the petition stated. He has also given a list of 16 other encounters, which according to his petition were fake and several persons were killed under the supervision of Paramjit Singh Gill, the then Senior Superintendent of Police, Amritsar, who has been promoted to the post of Inspector General of Police and is presently posted as Commissioner of Police, Ludhiana. SI Surjit Singh’s laywer RS Bains has said that they will be approaching a higher court. Edited July 8, 2013 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) Then most Sikhs aren't Sikhs because they are only cultural Sikhs. It can't be Sikhs vs State if the State is deploying and is controlled by mostly Sikhs. The problem here is not any group of people vs another. If anything it is system vs individual. The faulty system leads to the promotion of irresponsible, unqualified people who further bring in others like them. And there are protocols that are missing to keep everyone in check to make sure the power given to certain individuals is not abused. Watch that video I posted. Ofcourse not? I have nothing against Monah veers, I usually prefer hanging around with them than the so called amritdharis BUT here I'm talking of the killer of Sikhs, the sellouts who murdered their own brethren for promotions, who didn't care about the sanctity of Gurdwaras and attacked them (Black Thunder et al). If Ram Rai can cease to be a Sikh for altering one tuk of Gurbani then I think we both know what fate these so called Sikhs would be if they lived during the Gurus times. So if killing 83 people doesnt get you promoted, what will? This is ridiculous, yet unsurprising. 'In Sikh Punjab, police murder you In Khalistan, you murder police!' Eh? Jatts in Pakistan dont murder their own people. Also if jatts listened to other jatts, they wouldnt murder innocent jatts. If anything this is typical Sikh idiots thinking doing their typical thing. 'Oh me so mighty, me so righteous, everyone in my way must die!' Been happening since 1849, wont end as long as people can blame things like Punjabi culture or god knows what other lame excuse their fundamentalist brains come up with. But these SIkhs were raised in SIkh homes. They have turbans and beards ffs! Plenty of Kharkoos who were moneh wouldnt be good enough for people like you. So how do you explain that these sellouts are raised in Sikh homes? What is that is turning them away and who is responsible? One thing I would like to add is that this issue isnt just about the 1980s. My Granddad told me that when he ended up in EP after Partition the police used to shake people down for gold and in the 50s/60s would kill people by chucking them in wells or just beating them up. They never had this problem in West Punjab. EP was always considered a more 'backwards' part of the Punjab, the people there reflect that. Unfortunately its spread to the West as well. Just look at the UKBA. Give a Sikh a uniform and some authority and you got yourself a stormtrooper that would make your average Waffen SS soldier scared. Hardinge really did break the Khalsa. Raised in Sikh homes? Thats what im saying, there is no qaumi ekta, there is no teaching (brainwashing ), many of the children growing up in Sikh households are not taught about Sikhi, whether in Punjab or abroad. Abroad the parents are busy working and want the children to be anglicised, be like the high class goreh (then they wonder why their kids end up marrying goreh) and in Punjab generally people are not knowledgable in Sikhi (I questioned a few old amritdhari babeh in the pinds and their Sikhi Gyan was limited to Banis and the local Sant). Even now I am shocked to see the amount of ignorance that Sikhs have in Punjab about Sikhi, wheter moneh or keshdharis. If you take such people and put them in police, and tell them 'these Khalistanis are Paki agents, kill them' ofcourse they will do it? And then there are the ones who simply ignore Sikhi for their personal gains. But on the other side, how many police officers did not quit their job and joined kharkoos? Gen Labh Singh was an ex police officer, so were a few shaheeds in Blue Star and so was Simranjit Singh Mann. I did explain in my previous post how it comes that these sellouts are raised in Sikh homes. Responsible is the lack of kattarvaad. Shunning moneh, not allowing non-amritdharis have anand karaj, not wear red this that is not kattarta, kattarta is believing only Sikhi is the right path, having basic knowledge about Gurmat, loving your faith (whether your monah or not I really do not care that much). We need to feed our kids with things such as: we should never hesitate before sacrificing ourselves, our luxury for our panth, we should respect our fellow Sikhs, we should support the Qaum, we are one. Alas it might never happen. On a side note, Sajjan Kumars wife is Sikh and Jagdish Tytler is a Kapoor Bhappa with Sikh mother. I was disgusted when I first learnt this years ago. But my brothers, Sikhi is not something your born into, its something you earn. Don't forget that the Guru Angad Dev Ji and Guru Amar Das Ji were chosen above the sons of the Gurus. Merit comes by actions not birth, these people are not Sikh and the cause is ignorance and greed. We, as a qaum, and parents are responsible to a big extent. When will I see a good committed Sikh as a minister? or Police officer? We should have people in every field, learn from the Jews, the situation would be much different in many areas of Punjab if the local SHOs, SSPs were into Sikhi (but many have Sikh appearences but follow Saadhs and torture Gursikhs, yes they still exist but these things are not reported). Edited July 8, 2013 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Why cant it? It was the state against Sikh thought and aspiration. it boiled down to the state wishing by any means to subdue the aspirations of the Sikhs to make their mark on the stage of nationhood. The sikhs that fought alongside the state believe that only India has a right to this stage as representative of all the Sikhs. Chatanga ji you basically undermined your own argument. Sikh is not one group of people as you demonstrate. The word gaddaar and traitor does not apply here. The state has nothing against Sikhs, or any group of people. The state is against anything that interferes in its rule and territory. The Kashmiri separatists are also at war with the state. That does not mean that it is Kashmiri people vs State or Muslims vs State. It's just those select group of people vs state, more accurately is state vs separatism. Now the issue here is that innocent people who are not against the state are also being killed in the war between separatists and the state. Now is the state out to kill the thought and aspirations of these folks? No. Sikhs are able to live peacefully with teh state, they can flourish, rise to positions of power, etc, most if not almost all Sikhs in India are living quite peacefully with the state. So if that's the case why are innocents being killing in fake encounters? It is because of a faulty system. Those working in positions of power are able to take advantage of the conflict between state and separatists. The state does not benefit from the death of innocent bystanders but these people do, namely promotion and thus higher pay and recognition. They are able to hide under the banner of the state but are not the state. Contrast their motives with the motives of the state who benefits largely from a clean fight with the separatists, otherwise they jeopardize the trust with their people. One is harmed if innocents are killed but the other benefits. These people are able to get away with this because they are the ones who would normally investigate these matters and deliver justice. If they happen to perpetrate the crime they are supposed to prevent, they are not going to do anything about it. The system does not have measures in place, to keep these people in line. You might say well why doesn't the state take the initiative to correct the system and put in place the necessary measures? The thing is that the state relies on, in this case, the perpetrators to take the necessary steps towards correct measures. The perpetrators do not want this and can prevent the state from taking the necessary steps. Edited July 9, 2013 by BhagatSingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 very good explanation Bhagatsingh bhaa ji .. i truely appreciate it . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Have you ever been to Kashmir, Bhagat? Stop talking about Kashmir if you do not know the situation there. Go to Anantnag and find me one Sullah who says he is Indian. Buses with Yatrees to Amarnath get pelted with stones so bad in Kashmir its just never reported, my cousin has buses and I've been there. Its mad how them people want Ajadi, and ours wanted to but sat down after the killings and drugs Sharab got pumped into Punjab. The so-called state had specific operations to eliminate Sikhs. After Op Blue Star 6700 Sikhs were rounded up in whole Punjab (official figure), There were so many Operations against Sikhs. Why were only Sikhs targetted ? Especially Keshdharis/Amritdharis? Find me the ratio of Moneh vs Amritdharis killed in fake encounters. The Sikhs were CLEARLY the victims and it was the state killing them. The police officers given freedom by superiors, killers of Sikhs were promoted. Stop thinking the state is secular in India. Dara Singh killer of Christians is not being hanged but innocent Sikhs are being hanged (like Kehar Singh). India is a Hindu state, admit it or not. And the sellouts killed Sikhs along with Hindus and Muslims even like Izhar Alam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) And if it was just a 'select group of people', I wonder how Khalistani MPs got elected back in the day or still managed to get 3 lac votes few years back (SS Mann). Remember 3 lacs votes AFTER a decade of killins, torture by police is a huge thing, before that SS Mann became an MP and so did Indira's assassin Shaheed Bhai Beant Singhs wife. Mann became MP twice, once from Tarn Taran in 89 (you can argue that atmosphere influenced people blabla), but also from Sangrur in 99 when everything had died down. The Sikhs were shut down between 2000 and 2010 but they're rising now; more and more Bhindranwale stickers, Khalistan posters. Akaal Purakh Kirpa Karan Edited July 9, 2013 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) India is a Hindu state, admit it or not. And the sellouts killed Sikhs along with Hindus and Muslims even like Izhar Alam. Your arguments still don't get to the crux of the matter of many Sikhs readily joining movements that involved suppressing or even killing their own kind (or even others). I'm talking about being the 'swordarm' of the oppressor here so to speak i.e. those that actually implement the violence at ground level. I think Sikh Jat characteristics easily lend themselves to this type of thing, that is why it is relatively easy for outsiders to get them onboard for their projects, whether this is attacking Chinese in the opium wars, using Sikhs in Sri Lanka or as in this case against fellow Sikhs. Sometimes the causes such people align themselves with are arguably less obnoxious like the world wars but that seems to be more of a fluke than based on any conscious moral decision. Fact on the ground is that given a uniform and simple financial, status driven incentives Sikh Jats are all too ready to join causes and get their hands bloody without any wider ethical considerations. Whilst this cultural reality persists we will always have hordes of apnay willing to be the next paymasters 'hench men'. That's what we need to discuss and overcome. In yesteryears it was for whites, yesterday it was for India, tomorrow it will be for someone else. Edited July 9, 2013 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) That's because those ones know their rightful place unlike ours. I know Paki jatts , most of them aren't proud to be jatts, in fact they hide it and call themselves Rajputs or Gujjars, anything but. If Islam hadn't knocked that grinning, prancing idiocy out of them, they'd probably doing the same dumb 5hite our ones are. I'm not on about some jihadi wannabe inbreds that you chitchat with down the local chicken shop. I'm on about off the boat freshies. They're always on about Jatt clans this, Jatt clans that and it's all rather innocuous. Why is it that Sikhs have turned caste into such a battlefield and a crutch to feel good about themselves but our Pakistani brethren dont? Have you ever borrowed anything off one of these freshies? They refuse to take it back and do that typically Punjabi cultural thing of making sure you keep it. A rather cute game. Sikhs on the other hand, wouldnt piss on you if you were on fire. You're not my caste/creed/jatha/nationality etc! they would say. Why is it that Sikhs dont feel like they are getting ahead unless someone else is getting screwed over? What is wrong with Sikhs? Why are Jatts from across the border not as psychotic? Again, who exactly do they target for recruitment? More poignantly,who lays out the carpet for the pigs and 'Johnny Bulldog' in their supposed sanctums? Last time I went to the Singh Sabha Gurdwara I saw a few jattis walking in with their chavvy white husbands like it was no biggy. They target Sikhs for employment. You know why. There are people in these ghettoes who have ties to the army and recruiters and can act as a go between for both sides. If your average Ramgarhia or Ravidassia committee could speak good English and have contact points with the recruiters they would happily do this too. But I will give it to you that Sikhs do lay out the red carpet for this. The committee probably quite like the thought of other Sikh's kids going off and dying whilst their own kids rinse the Gurdwara funds. But hasnt that been the case since 1849? As for what you saw in a Singh Sabha, let's be honest, if that's the worst you have seen then you dont go that often. Amritdharis moaning about eating food made by moneh, before they go off to use a toilet after an English crackhead was in there. The younger amritdharis touching each other up. Old SInghs marrying old goris who came there for the free food and couldnt believe their luck coming acrossing these widowers with their factory pensions and savings from decades of hardwork. Once the Singh pops his clogs, she gets the money, his house, his land and do you think she will give anything to her stepchildren? Hell no! She makes sure her middle aged 'hardworking' 'salt of the earth' kids get everything instead. Assorted weirdos coming to Gurdwaras now. Sitting in front of the Guru and having to see chavvy jackals sitting there with their eyes bulging at the golak, waiting for someone to put some money in that doesnt go through the slit. Being told by the oldboys not to scare away the goreh, then having to watch him wail and cry when someone tells him that someone has pinched his shoes. Walking into the langar hall and seeing a depressed soulless freshy with a thousand yard stare who looks like he cant understand where it all went wrong. Next to him is a moti chav sitting there trying to use her roti and sabji like a fajita, moaning that 'you guys should invent better plates to eat this kind of stuff!'. Her boyfriends stare just getting wider and more depressed each time she opens her mouth with another pearl of wisdom. Girls going out clubbing and being well known slags - then turning up the next day with her chuni in the Gurdwara to spend a few hours and going 'Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru!' Anyway how did you know they were jattis? If people are going to go on about fair skin, how great Britain is even if they've never been abroad and all the other stupid things Sikhs talk about without thinking of the effect it might have. Our lot marrying chavs is quite common if they are freshies. Our lot are told that Britain is the golden country and that they have to do anything to stay here. The pressure back home on them is ridiculous. They come here and no matter how bad it is, they think its great. Even if they end up on a sink estate living out a real life version of Shameless. If the girls were born here, then there is that other topic where we discussed this, this topic probably isnt the place. Raised in Sikh homes? Thats what im saying, there is no qaumi ekta, there is no teaching (brainwashing ), many of the children growing up in Sikh households are not taught about Sikhi, whether in Punjab or abroad. Abroad the parents are busy working and want the children to be anglicised, be like the high class goreh (then they wonder why their kids end up marrying goreh) and in Punjab generally people are not knowledgable in Sikhi (I questioned a few old amritdhari babeh in the pinds and their Sikhi Gyan was limited to Banis and the local Sant). Even now I am shocked to see the amount of ignorance that Sikhs have in Punjab about Sikhi, wheter moneh or keshdharis. If you take such people and put them in police, and tell them 'these Khalistanis are Paki agents, kill them' ofcourse they will do it? And then there are the ones who simply ignore Sikhi for their personal gains. But on the other side, how many police officers did not quit their job and joined kharkoos? Gen Labh Singh was an ex police officer, so were a few shaheeds in Blue Star and so was Simranjit Singh Mann. I did explain in my previous post how it comes that these sellouts are raised in Sikh homes. Responsible is the lack of kattarvaad. Shunning moneh, not allowing non-amritdharis have anand karaj, not wear red this that is not kattarta, kattarta is believing only Sikhi is the right path, having basic knowledge about Gurmat, loving your faith (whether your monah or not I really do not care that much). We need to feed our kids with things such as: we should never hesitate before sacrificing ourselves, our luxury for our panth, we should respect our fellow Sikhs, we should support the Qaum, we are one. Alas it might never happen. On a side note, Sajjan Kumars wife is Sikh and Jagdish Tytler is a Kapoor Bhappa with Sikh mother. I was disgusted when I first learnt this years ago. But my brothers, Sikhi is not something your born into, its something you earn. Don't forget that the Guru Angad Dev Ji and Guru Amar Das Ji were chosen above the sons of the Gurus. Merit comes by actions not birth, these people are not Sikh and the cause is ignorance and greed. We, as a qaum, and parents are responsible to a big extent. When will I see a good committed Sikh as a minister? or Police officer? We should have people in every field, learn from the Jews, the situation would be much different in many areas of Punjab if the local SHOs, SSPs were into Sikhi (but many have Sikh appearences but follow Saadhs and torture Gursikhs, yes they still exist but these things are not reported). I guess if you were talking about something else than what you say would explain it all. But it just sounds like the usual fundamentalist cop out. How much Sikhi does it take for a grown man in the police to know that driving down a road and seeing a woman walking home isnt an excuse to jump out and rape her. Then drag her over to a well and chuck her in, then go and book her relatives for her rape and murder. Beat her family up, shake them down for money throw a couple in jail. All in a day's work. Then go down the Gurdwara and have a prayer and donate a bit of money. How committed to Sikhi do you need to be to know that taking a boy off a field for no reason is wrong? Taking him to a safehouse, keeping him for a few days with hourly beatings and any other torture that the Sikh cop feels up to. When the boy, many werent even teenagers let alone men, is broken and clearly not a Khalistani why does the Sikh policeman still beat and torture him? How can he justify it? Is this His hukam? Is this the boy's karma of a past life? Are his parents at fault and bad Sikhs? When the bewildered child who doesnt know why he is there and what he has done to bring this upon him looks up at the Sardar and asks for mercy for whatever it is that may have made this fellow SIkh hate him or bring this upon him, why is the Sikh with the power not capable of an ounce of mercy? How much Sikhi does it take for the Sikh cop to not ask him 'do your parents have hidden money or are they well off?' When he responds 'of course they dont', how religous does the Sikh cop have to be so that he doesnt think 'that's too bad', before bludgeoning the lad to death (quick deaths are no fun for the average Sikh cop) and disposing of his body in a cremation that none of his family will know about. Sadly our answer to all of life's problems is just more religion. The fact that many of these Sikh cops were amritdharis, had no family history of being in the police and yet were willing to be police and do all sorts. How much Sikhi does it take to know that taking an innocent's life is wrong? To avoid a long arsed discussion where Punjabi culture or caste get blamed for everything let me get this back on track. Why is that Sikhs go on about how the faith gives equality to women and Sikhs historically fought to prevent the use of women as war booty, yet Sikhs who know this are willing to use rape not just against 'insurgents' but any woman they like the look of. Why is it that religous Sikhs do that weird thing where they tell you their opinion as if it is fact and sit there with a cheshire cat smile on their face and that look in their eyes - a look that I havent seen in any other race apart from Anglo toffs when they want something off you or when they are trying to get you do something that probably benefits them far more? If you disagree with that type of person, heaven help you. Why is it that Sikhs commit such crimes to poor people who they think stand in their way or are against the 'sarbat da phalla' of their masters? I know religous Sikhs in the UK who work for the UKBA and they are some of the most villainous people you would ever meet. They know plenty about their religion. Sikhs in the 80s knew plenty about Sikhi. Even if they didnt, on a human level they shouldnt have done what they did. There are probably retired Gestapo officers with cleaner records. Why is there a transplanted dark heart still pumping poison through our nation's body? Why is the sickness not fought on a conscience level? Edited July 9, 2013 by HSD1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) I'm not on about some jihadi wannabe inbreds that you chitchat with down the local chicken shop. I'm on about off the boat freshies. They're always on about Jatt clans this, Jatt clans that and it's all rather innocuous. I wonder where those pak freshies learned that from? hmmmm....... You say its 'innocuous', maybe in their community right now sure. But in ours, that crap has caused so much dirt that it is unbelievable. From abusing 'low caste' girls to exclusions from wells, crematoriums in villages and what not. Notice how people from the guilty community like to play down their shenanigans as 'innocuous'. And I don't eat chicken shop 'halal' for the record. They target Sikhs for employment. You know why. There are people in these ghettoes who have ties to the army and recruiters and can act as a go between for both sides. If your average Ramgarhia or Ravidassia committee could speak good English and have contact points with the recruiters they would happily do this too. You're talking out of your arse mate. Other communities committees don't have any lesser linguistic skills. The truth is that goray have a long term relationship with jats from the colonial period which they like to try and keep alive. Plus (as I alluded to earlier), the establishment know - you want docile 'hench men' types these are the people to go to. You want to wheel some 'effnik' out in the media to publically demonstrate how multiculturalism is working - wheel the placid turbans wallahs out. They love the attention and don't ask for much in return. But I will give it to you that Sikhs do lay out the red carpet for this. The committee probably quite like the thought of other Sikh's kids going off and dying whilst their own kids rinse the Gurdwara funds. But hasnt that been the case since 1849? And jats are the most guilty for shamelessly doing the above. Unless people start facing up to it, they have no chance at all of changing it. It's way past getting defensive about it. Jats just go from being one set of people's attack dogs to another. The mentality behind that is what needs to be attacked. As for what you saw in a Singh Sabha, let's be honest, if that's the worst you have seen then you dont go that often. Amritdharis moaning about eating food made by moneh, before they go off to use a toilet after an English crackhead was in there. The younger amritdharis touching each other up. Old SInghs marrying old goris who came there for the free food and couldnt believe their luck coming acrossing these widowers with their factory pensions and savings from decades of hardwork. Once the Singh pops his clogs, she gets the money, his house, his land and do you think she will give anything to her stepchildren? Hell no! She makes sure her middle aged 'hardworking' 'salt of the earth' kids get everything instead. Assorted weirdos coming to Gurdwaras now. Sitting in front of the Guru and having to see chavvy jackals sitting there with their eyes bulging at the golak, waiting for someone to put some money in that doesnt go through the slit. Being told by the oldboys not to scare away the goreh, then having to watch him wail and cry when someone tells him that someone has pinched his shoes. Walking into the langar hall and seeing a depressed soulless freshy with a thousand yard stare who looks like he cant understand where it all went wrong. Next to him is a moti chav sitting there trying to use her roti and sabji like a fajita, moaning that 'you guys should invent better plates to eat this kind of stuff!'. Her boyfriends stare just getting wider and more depressed each time she opens her mouth with another pearl of wisdom. Girls going out clubbing and being well known slags - then turning up the next day with her chuni in the Gurdwara to spend a few hours and going 'Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru!' Is this what you see. Or are you being dramatical about it? How many goray turn up regularly at your local Gurdwaray? I've seen some of what you mention but not at the scale you are implying. Where do you live? Actually none of what you say is surprising. Anyway how did you know they were jattis? Because I know them from the area. Why, are you surprised? If people are going to go on about fair skin, how great Britain is even if they've never been abroad and all the other stupid things Sikhs talk about without thinking of the effect it might have. Our lot marrying chavs is quite common if they are freshies. I'm talking about educated farm girls here - and not just ugly ones. lol I guess if you were talking about something else than what you say would explain it all. But it just sounds like the usual fundamentalist cop out. How much Sikhi does it take for a grown man in the police to know that driving down a road and seeing a woman walking home isnt an excuse to jump out and rape her. Then drag her over to a well and chuck her in, then go and book her relatives for her rape and murder. Beat her family up, shake them down for money throw a couple in jail. All in a day's work. Then go down the Gurdwara and have a prayer and donate a bit of money. How committed to Sikhi do you need to be to know that taking a boy off a field for no reason is wrong? Taking him to a safehouse, keeping him for a few days with hourly beatings and any other torture that the Sikh cop feels up to. When the boy, many werent even teenagers let alone men, is broken and clearly not a Khalistani why does the Sikh policeman still beat and torture him? How can he justify it? Is this His hukam? Is this the boy's karma of a past life? Are his parents at fault and bad Sikhs? When the bewildered child who doesnt know why he is there and what he has done to bring this upon him looks up at the Sardar and asks for mercy for whatever it is that may have made this fellow SIkh hate him or bring this upon him, why is the Sikh with the power not capable of an ounce of mercy? How much Sikhi does it take for the Sikh cop to not ask him 'do your parents have hidden money or are they well off?' When he responds 'of course they dont', how religous does the Sikh cop have to be so that he doesnt think 'that's too bad', before bludgeoning the lad to death (quick deaths are no fun for the average Sikh cop) and disposing of his body in a cremation that none of his family will know about. Sadly our answer to all of life's problems is just more religion. The fact that many of these Sikh cops were amritdharis, had no family history of being in the police and yet were willing to be police and do all sorts. How much Sikhi does it take to know that taking an innocent's life is wrong? It's like apna society doesn't even have basic humanity. You could add to your list more minor but telling 'everyday' acts like snidey comments being casually thrown about regarding people's family members, wealth, 'sharabi kewabiness', caste, womenfolk....the list goes on. Ultimately apnay people are often not generally nice people to be around (especially after a drink when the inner arsehole really get outs!) - no wonder we often can't stand each other. To avoid a long arsed discussion where Punjabi culture or caste get blamed for everything let me get this back on track. Why is that Sikhs go on about how the faith gives equality to women and Sikhs historically fought to prevent the use of women as war booty, yet Sikhs who know this are willing to use rape not just against 'insurgents' but any woman they like the look of. Why is it that religous Sikhs do that weird thing where they tell you their opinion as if it is fact and sit there with a cheshire cat smile on their face and that look in their eyes - a look that I havent seen in any other race apart from Anglo toffs when they want something off you or when they are trying to get you do something that probably benefits them far more? If you disagree with that type of person, heaven help you. Why is it that Sikhs commit such crimes to poor people who they think stand in their way or are against the 'sarbat da phalla' of their masters? I know religous Sikhs in the UK who work for the UKBA and they are some of the most villainous people you would ever meet. They know plenty about their religion. Sikhs in the 80s knew plenty about Sikhi. Even if they didnt, on a human level they shouldnt have done what they did. There are probably retired Gestapo officers with cleaner records. Why is there a transplanted dark heart still pumping poison through our nation's body? Why is the sickness not fought on a conscience level? You NEED to acknowledge that SOME of the above stems from this pervasive 'jat sardar' mentality that feels unquestionable privilege and a haughty disdain and disregard for anything but one's own welfare and objectives. They are usually the ones doing the raping and killing. On a deeper level we have to ask just what is wrong with Sikh society that it can't even successfully impart universally accepted norms of civilised behaviour to its members? Edited July 9, 2013 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 It does take Sikhi to know about Qaumi Ekta, Qaums faida etc. If these people were bhought up the good way they wouldn't be attacking Gurdwaras or simply too greedy kuttey. Anyways, none of the killer of Sikhs was amritdhari, HSD. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 I don't understand why sikhs find it surprising when sikhs kill each other.Just look at other religions , muslims have been killing each other from 1000 years, Can't even count christians declare war on christian countries. Hindu' s killing each other probably from time of mahabharat.The fact is religion do have some influence but overall human nature remains the same .Sikhs are no different from other humans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 I wonder where those pak freshies learned that from? hmmmm....... You say its 'innocuous', maybe in their community right now sure. But in ours, that crap has caused so much dirt that it is unbelievable. From abusing 'low caste' girls to exclusions from wells, crematoriums in villages and what not. Notice how people from the guilty community like to play down their shenanigans as 'innocuous'. And I don't eat chicken shop 'halal' for the record. If you are trying to insinuate that I brought it up or encouraged them then you couldnt be further from the truth. Seeing as my grandparents were victims of Partition I'm not overly keen on the idea of shared 'clans' with people who caused us so much harm. I also dont read those stupid British 'anthropoligical' books on caste like you do or try and find common cause with people of the same caste wherever they may be lol. Again, I was calling muslim punjabi jatts innocuous when they go on about caste in their life. They dont seem bothered about anyone else's caste and dont use it as a crutch for a superiority complex or persecute others. I was asking why there is a difference. Read what I posted above again. You're talking out of your arse mate. Other communities committees don't have any lesser linguistic skills. The truth is that goray have a long term relationship with jats from the colonial period which they like to try and keep alive. Plus (as I alluded to earlier), the establishment know - you want docile 'hench men' types these are the people to go to. You want to wheel some 'effnik' out in the media to publically demonstrate how multiculturalism is working - wheel the placid turbans wallahs out. They love the attention and don't ask for much in return. Do you think the recruiters target us, or that there are go betweens from our own community who run after them and desperately try and drag them in to keep us relevant? You think that the average recruiting officer knows the difference between Sikh Gurdwaras? Of course not, they have their hands held by our lot. If the Police and Army were serious about recruiting Sikhs do you honestly think Ramgarhias and Ravidassias would say no? Do you know any Gurdwaras that have turned them away? Also a lot depends on the person who joins. Not every Sikh who joins the police or army is a jatt nutter. But as long as Sikhs give a warped idea to their own lot about what power and responsibility entails, most of those in the Army and Police will be these unhinged stormtroopers. And jats are the most guilty for shamelessly doing the above. Unless people start facing up to it, they have no chance at all of changing it. It's way past getting defensive about it. Jats just go from being one set of people's attack dogs to another. The mentality behind that is what needs to be attacked. I'm not being defensive. Facing up to a lot of abuses by those in power in Gurdwaras here or back home in the police is something we should do. But what you need to know is that most of the victims of this are what you would call 'Jatts' and that these people lack the sense or worldliness to comprehend being shafted. Is this what you see. Or are you being dramatical about it? How many goray turn up regularly at your local Gurdwaray? I've seen some of what you mention but not at the scale you are implying. Where do you live? Actually none of what you say is surprising. The pervy 'religous' young adults and the arrogant/hypocritical amritdharis are what I've been told about by people who saw those things in a West London Gurdwara. The rest I've seen myself at the local Singh Sabha apart from the old Singh marrying old goris thing. That happens to about half a dozen Singhs that I know of in the local town. In one case it led to a pretty shitty situation for the Sikh family that I wont go into on here as people will guess who I'm on about. I'll PM you if you really want to know. The Singh Sabha one looks like a neo-Dickensian workhouse on some days. Because I know them from the area. Why, are you surprised? No, not really, I dont put women on a pedestal especially if I dont know them. I'm talking about educated farm girls here - and not just ugly ones. lol So let me get this right, they are well educated but they go out with real chavs? OK mate, you must live in the retarded part of the UK or something. I only know freshies and real guttersnipes who do that kind of thing and that's because they are desperate or thick. Maybe you're just so ugly that they'd prefer a drug addict with no teeth? Or maybe it's because they're Jattis so they want a Baldrick to understand them on their level, not a genius like yourself? Joking aside, it's not a major thing to get worked up about. It's like apna society doesn't even have basic humanity. You could add to your list more minor but telling 'everyday' acts like snidey comments being casually thrown about regarding people's family members, wealth, 'sharabi kewabiness', caste, womenfolk....the list goes on. Ultimately apnay people are often not generally nice people to be around (especially after a drink when the inner arsehole really get outs!) - no wonder we often can't stand each other. Another thing is how Sikhs like to say what they think non-sikh people want to here. Being racist, slagging off their family and culture, giving gory details of things that happened to people they know etc. For some non-sikhs this a major turn off. I know that for some non-anglos it has made them readdress their own attitudes and mentality to the world as well as making apprehensive of knowing Sikhs. But Sikhs dont seem to get it. It's why starting a job or going anywhere and coming across another Sikh can be a major headache. They think you'll blow open the bullshit walls they've built around themselves. I couldnt care less, but some of our own lot get that wild look in their eyes lol. On a macro level, other people see through this and dont want to babysit us. It's one of the reasons why East Punjab hasnt attracted the kind of investment or relationships with countries who could do it some good. Instead they end up working with the same 'historical abusers'. Look at the result - Ludhiana has the highest level of pollution in any city in the world even though the industrialists and govt there spent a lot of money on foreign 'advisory' firms and 'specialists'. These people were happy to take the money but not do the work to a reasonable standard, but Sikhs still love them. You can guess which country these advisors came from. They wont lose any sleep how messed up Ludhiana is. And before you say what about China, bare in mind that if you divide the economic output of the city by the level of pollution measured in units, you get a far far lower figure compared to the Chinese. Sikhs can chalk up another admin cut up due to our own stupidity and laissez faire attitude to our own people paired with a unwavering devotion to those who just want to abuse us. It even happens in the UK itself - the bill for the new Southall Gurdwara ran into many millions due to an massive fee paid to an architecture firm. A firm who employ a gora who is married to the daughter of a Southall Gurdwara committee member... The schadenfreude that exists in intersikh relationships is ridiculous too. When it comes to outsiders they act completely in the opposite way. The older generation are a like a domineering matriarch/patriarch who makes sure the samosas are piled higher than a Nihang's turban when guests are around, but belittles and retards their own children's life experiences. The chalakness that SIkhs are so proud to display isnt even that sly when you compare us to some others. FFS going on about how chalak you are is a clear sign you arent chalak. All these SIkhs who spend their lives screwing over other SIkhs spend a lot of time having to look over their shoulder as their actions usually come back to haunt them. If they were truly chalak they would know that short termism and selfishness isnt going pay dividends. It is also leads to a warped attitude attitude to people around them. Sikhs are always 'bad', therefore non-Sikhs are 'good'. This mentality has led to a lot of trouble due to exposure and naivete and we seem to be keen on carrying it on. At the end of the day there are bad and good people in every race. Sometimes the bad ones exist in high enough numbers to be statistically significant - a sign of an issue in the community/nation/race. The thing is that doesnt entirely explain the way in which these police convinced themselves to murder children/women/innocent men. None of the victims were nasty to the police and the policemen were family men. What can cause them to have that ability to butcher on a whim and display anger like turning on a tap against people that cannot on any level be described as guilty or threatening? Where is this all coming from? Who is filling their heads with this? Also, some Sikhs are much nicer after they've had a drink. The bottle can be a better friend that most Sikhs lol! jk You NEED to acknowledge that SOME of the above stems from this pervasive 'jat sardar' mentality that feels unquestionable privilege and a haughty disdain and disregard for anything but one's own welfare and objectives. They are usually the ones doing the raping and killing. On a deeper level we have to ask just what is wrong with Sikh society that it can't even successfully impart universally accepted norms of civilised behaviour to its members? I'm not denying it's Jatts committing these crimes. But the victims are Jatts too and in the traditional monkey-see-monkey-do these actions filter down to poor Jatts and non-Jatts too. Why has that 'Jatt Sardar' mentality become commonplace in the last 150 years? Why is it still so virulent when Sikhs are removed from other Jatts and Sikh population centres? You say this is a Jatt issue, but the vast majority of the Fauj-i-Qilajat were from 'Jatt' backgrounds back in the day and they had an outstanding reputation for being fair, keeping order and not disrespecting locals or stealing when sent away from home. Why is it that families that produced kids who could maintain the high standards of the Fauj-i-Qilajat suddenly started producing people who have been killing and hurting ordinary Sikhs since 1849? It may have peaked in the 80s, but it happened before and still happens now. This shows it is far more embedded than more 'cosmetic' problems. Is it a pattern repeated throughout British ex-colonies? I was reading an autobiography by a famous Jamaican who travelled throughout Europe in the 1920s. One thing he mentioned is how he had a friend who was a black boxer in England that had married a white English woman. Everywhere he went he was attacked by English blokes who saw him with here and thought they could take him on. He usually had to knock them out and leg it. The author contrasted this with his native Jamaica where British police and soldiers raped women and even killed them regularly. It wasnt uncommon to come across bodies of women that had been attacked and killed in the forests there he said. Today most Jamaicans look upon the British rule as one of peace and prosperity. Is a similar thing stalking the Sikh conscience? But the British have gone anyway. Yet this still happens. Why is it still going on? Just because someone gives orders for it to carry on, doesnt mean they have to be followed. 'I was just following orders' doesnt cut it. It's almost as if the perpetrators want to do this. Like it proves something. Like they are living up to something or achieving something. Like they get some kicks out of the exploitation. I also wouldnt agree that there are universally accepted standards of civilised behaviour. The atrocities from both sides in the War on Terror, the communal violence in many parts of the world and brutality show that it's quite common. The thing is that for Sikhs we were a people who by all measures should be dead as a nation. We should have gone the way of all the other people who crossed big empires like the Mughals and Afghans. But we won even though we were the little guy and we had a pretty fair, communal and relatively equal system for the times after. A lot of people when they talk of freedom, equality and human rights only want that to apply to themselves or use it as a stick to beat others they dont like. Our standards arent quite the same as everyone elses though there are exceptions. But the Khalsa has never relied on anyone else to tell it what to do to be successful or the right thing. I am sure many Afghans/Mughals/Brits spoke about freedom and how great their systems were whilst trying to fight us. It doesnt take a genius or a massive understanding of Sikhi to see through it all. Why have some of us gone and just taken a massive dump on that heritage? Why are those standards warped and twisted to justify the kind of crimes we slag others off for like the Germans or Russians? I think some Sikhs have their heads in the clouds here or dont understand mathematics - it's not a couple of people or randomised or explained as a minority of bad apples - there are tens of thousands dead, possibly hundreds of thousands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 It does take Sikhi to know about Qaumi Ekta, Qaums faida etc. If these people were bhought up the good way they wouldn't be attacking Gurdwaras or simply too greedy kuttey. Anyways, none of the killer of Sikhs was amritdhari, HSD. If it that was the case then all the Kharkoo outfilts would have been made up of Amritdharis to counter infiltration. But a lot of the sellouts/moles were Amritdhari. Whether it was through choice or to furhter their cover, I dont know. But it wasnt that simple or black or white. You cant brazenly say none were amritdhari when the majority havent been brought to justice. As for people being brought up in the right way, it doesnt explain what happened in the 80s. There were retired Sikh army officers who would come to the UK and say they were Khalistani. They would say Khalistan is just round the corner and collect supporters names and addresses along with donations. On finishing their tour they would go back to India, hand over the names and addresses to RAW and keep the money. They knew what they were doing, they still did it. I don't understand why sikhs find it surprising when sikhs kill each other.Just look at other religions , muslims have been killing each other from 1000 years, Can't even count christians declare war on christian countries. Hindu' s killing each other probably from time of mahabharat.The fact is religion do have some influence but overall human nature remains the same .Sikhs are no different from other humans. Sikh on Sikh violence in the past was along the lines of low level criminality or inter Misl violence akin to the fighting between Shires in English history or domains/prefectures in Shogunate Japan or the divided states of any country in their history. Nothing major there. But since 1849 the Punjab CID/Police have gone and carried out crimes that would be described as statistically abnormal. Not everyone's police force has the blood of hundreds of thousands on its hands. It shouldnt be considered normal or acceptable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 This pathetic tendency to absolve our own community of its complicity in our own subjugation, is rubbish and robs us of any agency in trying to change things. That is not peculiar to Sikhs. it is a human trait. I dont know many Sikhs who applaud the fights and/or friction between Sikh groups even in the yestercenturies of sikh history. can you give us an example where we have absolved our own community in such matters? Eh? Jatts in Pakistan dont murder their own people. Who said? That's because those ones know their rightful place unlike ours. I know Paki jatts , most of them aren't proud to be jatts, in fact they hide it and call themselves Rajputs or Gujjars, anything but. If Islam hadn't knocked that grinning, prancing idiocy out of them, they'd probably doing the same dumb 5hite our ones are. i notice that islam hasnt knocked anything out of the a-rabs about superiorty, but has worked it s miracle on jats? most jatts if not all are landowners, in Ep to the exclusion of most other caste groupings, whereas in WP there are arains and awans, who hold as much land as the jatts, so the jatts are nothing special there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) I also dont read those stupid British 'anthropoligical' books on caste like you do or try and find common cause with people of the same caste wherever they may be lol. Well, someone has too. If people like me didn’t, our people would never have a clue about how goray created/stimulated aspects of the modern jatt identity that causes so much havoc with Sikh unity today. This wasbased on a mixture of white supremacist revisionism and colonial pragmatism as jatts farmed the land that was making whites profit and helped them in their ‘imperial adventures’ via the military. In any case my allusion was to the point that the modern jatt-paks you talked about are most likely getting jumped up about their jatt identity in emulation of their Sikh counterparts – it wouldn’t surprise me if jatt song and dance and movies played a part in it too (as well as direct contact). Again, I was calling muslim punjabi jatts innocuous when they go on about caste in their life. They dont seem bothered about anyone else's caste and dont use it as a crutch for a superiority complex or persecute others. I was asking why there is a difference. The difference is that Islam (or whatever you want to call their overarching belief system in Pak) outright condemns and ridicules the behaviours associated with Sikh-jattness because it recognises its destructiveness in social terms. Also whites didn’t fill their heads up with as much shit as they did to apnay. You meet many of today's jatt sikh frequently feeling a stronger allegiance to say whites (in England) than they do to other Sikhs of different castes. That stupidity has been smacked out of sullay jatts and they know that their loyalty lies with their other Muslim brothers. Do you think the recruiters target us, or that there are go betweens from our own community who run after them and desperately try and drag them in to keep us relevant? You think that the average recruiting officer knows the difference between Sikh Gurdwaras? Like I said, you are acting oblivious to historical ties between the jatt tongue and the anglo arse. They know EXACTLY who and what they are dealing with. FFS, they’ve been studying and writing about us on a very deep level for 200 odd years. You would know this too if you read that pseudo-science 'anthropological' shite you mentioned earlier. If the Police and Army were serious about recruiting Sikhs do you honestly think Ramgarhias and Ravidassias would say no? Do you know any Gurdwaras that have turned them away? Like I said before they have a long term relationship that they keep trying to manipulate. The funny thing is that ironically both jatts and anglos are living in the past, and aren’t as ‘great’ as they like to imagine themselves. We know from Falcon’s regimental advice book that Ramgarhias couldn’t easily be recruited in the late 1800s imperial army because the salary was too low for them. After WW1 goray seemed to have quickly disbanded their Ravidassi regiments for whatever reasons. Also a lot depends on the person who joins. Not every Sikh who joins the police or army is a jatt nutter. But as long as Sikhs give a warped idea to their own lot about what power and responsibility entails, most of those in the Army and Police will be these unhinged stormtroopers. It’s not even unhinged jatt psychos, it could as easily be a token jatt puppets (as in the UK) where they get wheeled out as required. The characteristic is deep in the jatt psyche, I mean look at Republicans in the US, they have that Bobby Jindal and that Nikki Haley on a string. The former fudu even became a Christian – wtf! Plain and simple jatts produce a lot of people like this – and this tendency needs to be confronted and attacked from within the jatt community itself – but first people need to face up to the problem and we aren’t even getting to that point because the truth totally contradicts the self-image and people don’t want to face truth. That's not to say that jatts haven’t produced some braves arse warriors and iconic leaders, but what’s the point of bigging that up when hordes of fudu jatts turn around and undo all their good work and sacrifices pretty much straight away. It’s like 2 steps forwards, and then 5 steps back. I'm not being defensive. Facing up to a lot of abuses by those in power in Gurdwaras here or back home in the police is something we should do. But what you need to know is that most of the victims of this are what you would call 'Jatts' and that these people lack the sense or worldliness to comprehend being shafted. Again a consequence of the pervasive jatt psyche that thinks it knows it all and doesn't do 'reflection'. This needs to be changed. Just because the type of jatt stupidity under discussion hurts both jatts and nonjatts, doesn’t mean that we should ignore the fact that it stems from jatts. They are becoming the enemy within - and I mean people who are physically willing to murder and suppress other Sikhs at ground level - not in some higher arse licking position that doesn't get its hands dirty but the actual 'doers' themselves. I put it straight to you - most Sikhs from the other communities don't have this tendency and if you find any doing teh stuff under discussion they'd be quite exceptional - whereas hordes of Sikh jatts get their hands dirty in stuff like this. Edited July 10, 2013 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 i notice that islam hasnt knocked anything out of the a-rabs about superiorty, but has worked it s miracle on jats? Sikhi frequently doesn't seem to civilise jatts as much as other ways of life it seems. Maybe it's because the idiots form a majority in our thing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 The thing is that doesnt entirely explain the way in which these police convinced themselves to murder children/women/innocent men. None of the victims were nasty to the police and the policemen were family men. What can cause them to have that ability to butcher on a whim and display anger like turning on a tap against people that cannot on any level be described as guilty or threatening? Where is this all coming from? Who is filling their heads with this? I think it is a psychological consequence of supremacist thinking. Once you think you are super special, your own needs are considered above all else, and other lives of little consequence or importance in relation to your needs. Then you can go around killing and raping without any conscience. You see it everywhere an elevated sense of superiority or self worth manifests itself in a deep way. Same way nazis felt no way killing jew children, Anglos killing and raping slaves in the Caribbean and US. Overseers on plantations more or equally cruel than the white men towards their own. Even today with how fundo sullay will treat vulnerable kaffir girls who stay their way. Or high up western government bods who think nothing of thousands dying (on both sides) over bullshit lies. Our people's issue is simply a side effect of current jatt sikh culture in my opinion and the cure is having a more humble self - conception - which is exactly what our Gurus stressed! This needs to be taught to jatts as right now all they seem to do is fill each others (and their own) heads with pure horse shit about how great they are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 http://www.punjabspectrum.com/2013/07/14827 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GtLoc Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) @dalsingh first, um look at how they revised polish numbers from 3 mil to 1 mil and how the records released after fall of USSR said 70k died at Auswitchz not hte lakhs they made up at the end of WW2. A top german general said on stand first he heard of holocaust was just now, as Hitlers plan was deportation. Now, another thing is you have to remember that the Punjab police at its peak was only 16k. There were only ever 1 or 2 touts in a village of thousands I think we need to study the British Thana system, as that is what allowed them to control the populace for so long. Another thing is free and open access to information, that lets people change their mind about things. --- Fact is, being raised a 'sikh' allows you to unhinge and go warrior pretty quickly, difference is whehter it is for truth vs ignorance and who you have around you. There is a reason guru ji talks at length about the company of saadh sangat and what affect it will have on you. --- Also, realize that not everyone is 'religious' there are snitches everywhere, with no aspirations above their own. Obviously, there are more among us but that is only because we are stronger so there will be a bigger gap between the strong and weak (mind). You have to remember that Bhutto gave out the names of the leaders, and before that there were serious negotiations going on with the government we basically won the war. To understand the Punjab Police's mentality, read SATP.org and see gill's papers. You know he's bsing about the numbers etc, but it seems that many of the 'Sikh' police though this was an adventure. -- Also in Re: to Surjit Singh if you see clearly he only participated in 16 or so encounters in which multiple persons were killed. This paints a very different picture from a serial killer picking and choosing 83 people. It seems that there is/was a whole lot of pressure on kids to go into some 'field' and that unlike many of us here who had outlets to get the pressure out and see things other ways, many did not. Being in a 100% westerrn punjabi community for example can be choking because everyone will put off the same bs that your parents would. -- There was also no organization, logistics, etc. You have to remember that this whole movement was basically carved out right after bluestar with Bhai Brahma ji and them setting up training camps etc. Round 1 so to speak, didn't have the decades of festering that we have going into round 2. There has been no knockout yet, as far as the sullahs go, honestly they are raised to be scared of pathans who are famous homosexuals and cross-dressers. Need I say more,?? VJKVJF|| edit - Also, being raised in a culture of fear, shapes and conditions the mind to believe only what is acceptable. The youth even in Punjab no longer have thsi fear, or no longer care I see this dread in the older generation though, especially those who have been through partition. Edited July 21, 2013 by GtLoc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 (edited) Who said? I'm not familiar with stories of West Punjabi Police murdering thousands of people since 1947 on the same level as what happened in East Punjab. Well, someone has too. If people like me didn’t, our people would never have a clue about how goray created/stimulated aspects of the modern jatt identity that causes so much havoc with Sikh unity today. This wasbased on a mixture of white supremacist revisionism and colonial pragmatism as jatts farmed the land that was making whites profit and helped them in their ‘imperial adventures’ via the military. In any case my allusion was to the point that the modern jatt-paks you talked about are most likely getting jumped up about their jatt identity in emulation of their Sikh counterparts – it wouldn’t surprise me if jatt song and dance and movies played a part in it too (as well as direct contact). Well that's all well and good, but you're a little late to the party. If you had talked about this 120 years ago it might have been useful, but it's all been done and gone. The British got the taxes, won their wars and are sitting pretty. Of course there are still some retards who look on it like it was a great time and others who wish it never ended but they are in a minority. What is still a much bigger problem is the attitudes and mentality that the British instilled in us that are detrimental to who we are now. And that is not exclusive to Jatts. It's the fundamentalist Sikhs that have been born out of our own colonisation that are the biggest problems. The stupid stories and ideologies they spin to suit their own needs and how they force this on others and stupid people back home in EP is the modern version of the problem you talk about. Just because you keep bumping into Jatts who live in their city ghettoes and have managed to keep the same mentality their grandparents had when they left India in the 1940s does not mean it's the same everywhere. Most of these people dont even have meaningful contact with white people. It's not Jatts that the Brits think are useful idiots. It's all Sikhs. As for what modern PakJatts are like, you may be right. But it still points to the fact that the problem of police brutality lies at Sikhs' feet rather than anything to do with caste. The difference is that Islam (or whatever you want to call their overarching belief system in Pak) outright condemns and ridicules the behaviours associated with Sikh-jattness because it recognises its destructiveness in social terms. Also whites didn’t fill their heads up with as much shit as they did to apnay. You meet many of today's jatt sikh frequently feeling a stronger allegiance to say whites (in England) than they do to other Sikhs of different castes. That stupidity has been smacked out of sullay jatts and they know that their loyalty lies with their other Muslim brothers. It seems you want to see what you want to see. The muslim jatts got more out of British rule than the Sikhs ever did. They liked each other more than either liked us. It's the idea of British rule that encourage the muslims to side with the British in the Second Anglo Sikh war whilst Sikhs were sitting around waiting for miracles. Afterwards the British encouraged the same shite in them as they did in us. The difference is that the sulleh had institutions that could not be compromised or were not targetted by the Brits. Sikh religous institutions were compromised on a widespread level. All corners of the old Sikh Empire were sucked in and reorganised to suit the British. All this reflects badly on Sikhs and their stupidity. The usual copouts of caste or culture just dont cut it anymore. Its the way Sikhs are brought up religously that leads to so many problems. Islam has the Arabs offering guidance to their satellites. SIkhs are just so retarded that the still run after the goreh in desperation for them to accept us or tell us how to act or gain their approval. That's what's really going on. As for the not liking other Sikhs thing, that applies to Jatts Sikhs as well. Plenty of Sikh Jatts dont like other Sikh Jatts and see themselves as white or at least believe that goreh are always right. In the fundamentalist shithole that is SikhSangat look at this: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/72266-chelsea-footballer-john-terrys-dad-edward-terry-racially-attacked-sikh-guy-amarjit-talafair/ LIke I said, the white worship goes far deeper than the Jatts. It's a Sikh problem. The idea that Islam somehow stamped this out is laughable, they had a completely different mindset that they kept rather than sell themselves out and turn into whores like Sikhs have. Like I said, you are acting oblivious to historical ties between the jatt tongue and the anglo arse. They know EXACTLY who and what they are dealing with. FFS, they’ve been studying and writing about us on a very deep level for 200 odd years. You would know this too if you read that pseudo-science 'anthropological' shite you mentioned earlier. Let's be realistic about this. If all the jatts left, they would go after the biggest ramgarhia and ravidassia Gurdwaras. Like I said before they have a long term relationship that they keep trying to manipulate. The funny thing is that ironically both jatts and anglos are living in the past, and aren’t as ‘great’ as they like to imagine themselves. We know from Falcon’s regimental advice book that Ramgarhias couldn’t easily be recruited in the late 1800s imperial army because the salary was too low for them. After WW1 goray seemed to have quickly disbanded their Ravidassi regiments for whatever reasons. Yet it was the Ramgarhias and other Sikh castes who kept the IAF and RAF in the air in the early 20th century. Come now Dally, dont tell me you dont know why the chamar regiments were disbanded. It wasnt after WW1 in some kind of slap in the face, it was during the Great Depression when many regiments in India were disbanded. As soon as WW2 started and the British asked for the chamar Sikhs to fight, they lept at the chance to run into the trenches and jungles to kill foreigners they didnt know and who were not interested in hurting Sikhs. Like rabid dogs let off the leash to hunt wild animals, dragging the corpse back to the lord of the manor just to hear the acceptance of praise and maybe a treat. Just like the Jatts. In fact, many Chamars are proud of their history in the British Indian Army. Some believe that the seperation of Jatts and Chamars into their own Pioneer battalions was a recognition of Chamar Sikh fighting prowess. In reality it was the fact that the British regimental model placed light, regular and heavy troops seperately as opposed to the Napoleonic model that the Punjab had were light infantry/hunters/skirmishers were used as attachments to line regiments and grenadier battalions. Of course if you tell them this, you're just a dumb jatt who cant handle how much the British respected them and are full of jealousy. Since when did reality ever factor into how Sikhs perceive the world and their place in it? The modern Sikh Light Infantry has had it's name dragged through the mud thanks to what some soldiers have done to civilians in places like Eastern India, HImalyas and Sri Lanka. Just like some other Sikh regiments. It’s not even unhinged jatt psychos, it could as easily be a token jatt puppets (as in the UK) where they get wheeled out as required. The characteristic is deep in the jatt psyche, I mean look at Republicans in the US, they have that Bobby Jindal and that Nikki Haley on a string. The former fudu even became a Christian – wtf! Plain and simple jatts produce a lot of people like this – and this tendency needs to be confronted and attacked from within the jatt community itself – but first people need to face up to the problem and we aren’t even getting to that point because the truth totally contradicts the self-image and people don’t want to face truth. That's not to say that jatts haven’t produced some braves arse warriors and iconic leaders, but what’s the point of bigging that up when hordes of fudu jatts turn around and undo all their good work and sacrifices pretty much straight away. It’s like 2 steps forwards, and then 5 steps back. Booby Jindal is an utter moron. That's his caste. As for Nikki Haley, take a look at her family. Her parents were prominent members of the Sikh community, that included running the local Gurdwara with Nikki supposedly doing the account books. Whilst the Gurdwara ran into the ground financially, even with the generosity of the average Sikh who attended, Nikki's parents' company became a multimillion success story............Being the way she is it was no surprise that Nikki gravitated towards Government jobs. Maybe it was due to her relative intelligence or her 'easiness' which could have allowed smoother intergration into the gora society. Her sister wasnt so smart so she just became one of these new age of aquarius mystic yogi types. Even she still did it to make money, though she isnt quite good at that. If you need it spelling out, religous SIkh families and our interpretation of Sikhi combined with our bizarre understanding of host or alien cultures and societies creates these weird bubbles of collective problems. It doesnt matter if they are Jatt or not, they are still obsessed with money, status, getting accepted, saying what they think outsiders want to hear, coming up with fantasy eutopias that are just around the corner, screwing over their own kind to make them feel better about themselves, maintaining an image of the community towards others that is akin to tunnel vision in order to see the car crashes around them etc. The euphoric reaction amongst ordinary Sikhs to Nikki Haley's election victory shows that she aint the only one with issues. The idea that some jatt genes or culture produced great warriors or iconic leaders is a bit stupid and flies in the face of everything I've been saying. There is no evidence of any genetic research or historical analysis to find out what went into the average Punjabi. I wouldnt recommend any genetic research either as the information in the wrong hands would be a disaster. As for rigourous historical analysis, it will never happen as Sikhs are so flippant and incredulous to knowledge. On an anecdotal level I've had Sikhs tell me that Punjabis are ethnically related to Cossacks - the only reason being that they like horses too and the old farts liked watching Taras Bulba back in the 60s. On SikhSangat one idiot compared his lactose intolerance to the supposed lack of dairy products in Greek shops and implied shared intolerance to lactose. Unfortunately I dont have an unbanned account as I would have pointed out to him that the Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are not ethnically similar due to numerous barbarian invasions since the fall of the Roman Empire. Therefore if he is related to modern day greeks he cant claim a shared ancestor going back to the days of Socrates, Aristotle or Plato. But even if I had explained that to him, knowing what Sikhs are like they wouldnt have believed it. Sikhs just want to believe what they want to believe. I know for a fact that some villages in Doaba became very mixed during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's era by immigrants who wanted to be Punjabi, lock stock and barrel, not like the modern immigrants to Badal's Punjab. Forget all this nonsense about Scythians and Greeks just to suit some people's egos or further the case with certain people to accept or love us. If I had to put a bet on it, I would say we Punjabi Sikhs are a mix of the inhabitants of the first Indus Civilization and the Ancient Egyptian colonists. But that's just cos I want to claim the Pyramids. jk. If you were to talk in the realm of personal make up affecting how people are it could maybe include personality at a stretch, rather than genetics or culture. It doesnt matter if a Jatt is a hillbilly or a Rhett Butler type, what makes one hate abuse of authority and the other slavishly obsequious to any and every tantrum from an outside voice is something that can be explained by religion and its interpretation on a historical, social and intellectual level. A retarded sense of history paired with a unbelievably naive view of the present is something Sikhs are famous for. Celebrating our ancestors stopping the abduction of Brahmin women by Afghan raiders whilst living in countries were Native women are raped by the descendants of European raiders. Or turning a blind eye to the abduction of Sikh girls. Talking about how Mughals chopped up Sikh children and forced their mothers to wear their body parts as necklaces whilst praising the historic systems/culture/'civilization' of a people who turned up in places like Tasmania and Australia and decapitated men in front of their wives before tying the head onto a trophy necklace for themselves as well as then wearing it as they raped the widow. Talking about our Baggi spirit, how we stood out and did the right thing, whilst going round and sucking up to the very people who engineered our present anguish. I could go on, but I'm either preaching to the converted or getting the backs up of our notoriously retarded and close minded older generation. Again a consequence of the pervasive jatt psyche that thinks it knows it all and doesn't do 'reflection'. This needs to be changed. Just because the type of jatt stupidity under discussion hurts both jatts and nonjatts, doesn’t mean that we should ignore the fact that it stems from jatts. They are becoming the enemy within - and I mean people who are physically willing to murder and suppress other Sikhs at ground level - not in some higher arse licking position that doesn't get its hands dirty but the actual 'doers' themselves. I put it straight to you - most Sikhs from the other communities don't have this tendency and if you find any doing teh stuff under discussion they'd be quite exceptional - whereas hordes of Sikh jatts get their hands dirty in stuff like this. If you say so. The stories from ex-3HOers kind of indicates otherwise. The 'Animal Farm' style accounts of what went on inside their dera just show modern Sikhi and how we practice it just doesnt cut it anymore. No wonder so many converts slag off Punjabi history and Maharaja Ranjit Singh. For all their holiness and talk of practicing real Sikhi they have failed to match the achievements of a pint sized horny drunkard bisexual Punjabi Emperor. No matter how many times the coconuts or Yogi Bhajan's ghost tells them they are special, how they are our saviours, how we will rule the world together - the goreh Sikhs cant get over their own inherent problems. And this is all before what came out in Gursant Singh's book. Goreh are far better at washing their laundry in private. Plenty of them celebrated the outcome of the Zimmerman trial as well as have beliefs that would make many historical Sikhs throw up. I long to see the day when they reach a critical mass in numbers and began to speak the same bigotted words we hear from the whites who arent Sikh, except these will come out of mouths with wrapped by turbans and beards. Bets are open that us simple brown folk will run a mile or pretend we didnt hear it before burying our heads in the sand. Just in case you dont believe me and want to hear it from a Gora Sahib, I dug this out for you: http://www.rickross.com/reference/3ho/3ho72.html As for Yogi Bhajan, he was a rare breed. The genuinely intelligent Kulak. You spend so much time railing against Jatts who dont have a field to crap in, but here comes along a genuinely smart swarmy scheming landowner and you dont seem too bothered. Of course YB did come out with some good stuff. But it was all for an agenda and to suit his own cult of personality. All the home truths he shared were like the news pieces on Russia Today - based on truth but done in a deliberate manner for an audience who are used to being captive. It sounds like the truth to them, but only because they get fed so much crap by those above them. Another analogy would be British political parties. They can argue about righteousness and who is better but they both screw up when in charge. Sikhi frequently doesn't seem to civilise jatts as much as other ways of life it seems. Maybe it's because the idiots form a majority in our thing? Would you care to explain this analogy to a simple non-farming, non-land owning Jatt like me? It sounds like you are saying the Arab/Brits are using Sunni Islam/Sikhi to mollycoddle/control Muslim Jatts/Sikh Jatts and turn us into a bunch of weirdos with inferiority complexes/chips on our shoulders? I think it is a psychological consequence of supremacist thinking. Once you think you are super special, your own needs are considered above all else, and other lives of little consequence or importance in relation to your needs. Then you can go around killing and raping without any conscience. You see it everywhere an elevated sense of superiority or self worth manifests itself in a deep way. Same way nazis felt no way killing jew children, Anglos killing and raping slaves in the Caribbean and US. Overseers on plantations more or equally cruel than the white men towards their own. Even today with how fundo sullay will treat vulnerable kaffir girls who stay their way. Or high up western government bods who think nothing of thousands dying (on both sides) over bullshit lies. Our people's issue is simply a side effect of current jatt sikh culture in my opinion and the cure is having a more humble self - conception - which is exactly what our Gurus stressed! This needs to be taught to jatts as right now all they seem to do is fill each others (and their own) heads with pure horse shit about how great they are. I think you'll find that this supremacist thinking may have started with the jatts a long time ago but it is now synonymous with Sikhs of any hue or caste. Anyway this goes far deeper than the idea of feeling better than others. It is the fundamental way in we see everything and how we interact with the world that is causing such utter ineffectiveness. I personally believe one of the reason moneh/certain castes/jathas get so much grief from religous fundamentalists is to create tiers in Sikh society which ultimately reduce accountability. In our Guru's time or in the times of the Khalsa Raj, the inclusion of Punjabi Sikhs of any background forced a lot of those who would get up to stupid things to think twice as they knew if they were caught they would be pulled up on it- there were just too many people around to say something and flag issues. In today's holier than thou atmosphere it is virtually impossible to hold anyone accountable as they just blame someone else, say they practice true Sikhi or cry that those accusing them arent perfect either. This just allows people to get up to and away with anything. A lot of SIkhs have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to their own people too. The idea that their own people are villainous and deserving of any punishment whilst outsiders are beyond reproach and always right leads to the kind of abuses from Sikhs in authority towards Sikhs with no power. The attitude many Sikhs have towards East Punjab adds to this too. They go on about their perception in the west and what we've built for ourselves here. Part of that is projecting that back home is backwards as that's what we think the goreh want to hear, where as we are special for having got out. In reality the only difference is money. For all our wealth in the West, we still act like a bunch of pindus, what's our excuse? It's also about the failure to practice Sikhi in non-religous matters. I'm not on about shoving your beard and turban in everyone's face but the fact that Sikhs no longer have the ability to stay true to themselves. The inability for Sikhs to create or practice political beliefs that are based on our own historical terms is telling of our mentality. The gora sikhs are better at this but that's because they want to use Sikhi as a vehicle for their own vegan and anglocentric objectives. If SIkhs practiced political Sikhi they wouldnt have allowed such idiots in the Punjab police to keep their jobs. On a miltary level, why are so many Sikhs so easily picked off by the police? I cant imagine our ancestors falling for that. They would have been killing the police and disposing of their bodies rather than the other way round. Finally, a lot of this has nothing to do with caste but with Sikhs issues with authority. Our slavish acceptance of anything said by those in respectable positions with no attempt to understand their subjectivity shows how far we have come from the old attitudes. In the West, everytime a Gurdwara committee has a problem they just call the police. They have the image that the police are this special force of men and women who are so pious and enforcers of justice that they will come rushing in to save the old sardars from the criminal brown faced masses who dont like them in their own Gurdwara. In reality the police are just people in uniforms. That's all it is - a costume with authority. When they take it off they are just like any other random on the street. They can be on the make, they can be stupid, they can be lazy just as much as anyone else. Of course if you live in Southall and have never known a gora for any real length of time, you can be forgiven for believing that the Crown only allows the best to join the police and scrutinises and tests any recruit to weed out all those we would consider undesirable. But you would still be an idealistic retard. This applies to everything. A teacher is just a person, with their opinions and own attitudes - not everything they say is true. A doctor is just a person, yet SIkhs walk into a hospital and accept anything they give them - including injections they have no idea of what they are. They have no ideas of the attitudes of doctors or how they have targets and budgets or just sometimes want to placate you. In summary, Sikhs need to grow up and stop expecting that people still want to run after us and wipe our asses. The Brits dont care about the extrajudicial killings and they never will. They will however take your money for a mediocre education and manufactured tat. All the talk of freedom and justice is just something to feel good about and lord over others. The Americans know and dont really care unless they want to twist India's arm. No one cares. If SIkhs want to sort this out or stop it happening again they need to do it themselves. Stop this walking around like a retarded child wondering if Jimmy Saville/Mahtama Gandhi/Propher Mohammed's bed is more comfortable than the others. Stop allowing people to abuse you. Dont abuse others. Edited July 28, 2013 by HSD1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 (edited) To paraphrase the comedian Peter Russell when he said 'All Indians are stingy, but Gujeratis take it to a whole other level' I'd say yeah, today all Sikhs do seem dumb-arse like you say, but certain jat-Sikhs seem to take it on a whole other level. And there is a casual violence problem with Sikh- jatts, clearly - maybe the same thing that supposedly makes them such great warriors also makes them all too ready to shed blood when the price or incentives are right. How else can we expect people who have a reputation for murdering their own family members over land squabbles to behave? Edited July 30, 2013 by dalsingh101 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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