Chairs In Darbar Hall Vs Discrimination Of Disability

[PAL 07]

Sangat Jee

Increasingly in the UK and the wider diaspora we are seeing a new challenge facing the Sikhs, namely that of the implementation of seats in the Darbar Hall of a Gurdwara. Some are for this and say it is a positive thing because we shouldn't discriminate against those who are diabled and have difficulty sitting down and participating in the congregation. Whilst others say we should remain strict and orthodox in the teachings laid out by our great Masters.

My personal opinion is that we should not have seats in the Gurdwara for the following reason:-

Guru Ka Darbar and Guru Ka Takht refer to those places where Sri Guru Granth Sahib is adorned with the title of KIng and where they hold a Court and grace the common people with their presence. Now darbars used to be held before the Guru's, so a darbar isnt a new phenomenon. King's used to hold Darbars (courts) for the purposes of admionistering their kindgom.

In a Darbar only the King was given sovereignty and this was represented and symbolized by him having a higher seat than the rest of the common subjects. This concept was adobted by Sri Guru Arjan Dev JI when he created the maryada for the seva of Sri Guru Granth Sahib at the Golden Temple when at that time it was known as Pothi Sahib.

If we put seats inside the court of the Guru then we are symbolizing and implicily stating that those sitting on the chairs are equal to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and also above the sangat.

This is clearly wrong and therefore cannopt be accepted as Gurmat to allow seats to be imposed in the Darbar Hall.

However neosikhs who are making these changes in many Gurdwaras are arguing that we are discriminating against those who are diabled and find it impossible to sit cross legged on the floor and that this kind of discrimination is againt the Sikh teachings.

So what are your views on this?

[chatanga1]

if no chairs are allowed in sangat, then why in pangat?

this is a question i asked soeone who wanted the chairs removed from the darbar. I am not pro or anti, but maintain that you cannot force maryada in any one part of the gurdwara, and ignore it in another part.

either remove them altogether, or let those who need them, use them.

[jaikaara]

i think we need to introspect on this issue..the number of people able to sit cross legged is decreasing and whether we want to maintain the Guru ghar for the sangat or for rules and regulations is what we need to decide.

Someone attending the Diwan not been able to sit cross legged for medical reasons does not have a right to come to the Gurdwara is that the message we want to give across ?

Those days there were no chairs and tables and it was obvious that people sat on the ground as they had been doing all their lives. Times have changed, Sikhi itself was part of the evolving process, Dhan Guru Nanakdev ji Maharaaj spread the message that instead of tiring and senseless rituals, Naam Simran was the easiest way to do Ustat of Akaal Purakh. Bhagti was the answer to those endless rituals which left people wondering whether they had done things right enough to please the Gods. Instead of the many Devi Devte we were directed to One Supreme Power Akaal .

I doubt whether The Gurus who gave us the message of ' Ek Oankaar ' , ' Sabh Dharma Fokat maan , Sabh karma nihafal jaan ' would agree to our stringent attitude. The Jangi Khalsa would do Bani on horseback , do you expect people who were fighting tyranny would seek a pond first and then start a 'paath' ???

BHula chuka muaaf karni ji

[PAL 07]

if no chairs are allowed in sangat, then why in pangat?

this is a question i asked soeone who wanted the chairs removed from the darbar. I am not pro or anti, but maintain that you cannot force maryada in any one part of the gurdwara, and ignore it in another part.

either remove them altogether, or let those who need them, use them.

Akaal Takht The Supreme body representing Sikh affairs has already decreed that seats in the langar hall are prohibited. When this issue came to light Sikhs said the next step will be seats in the Darbar Sahib. How true this is. If we go by Chatanga's analysis then i guess indirectly Akaal Takht does not support chairs in the darbar hall.

[Guest]

How about small wooden peeriyas with cushions for elderly?

[PAL 07]

In my opinion the best solution, aligned with Gurmat is that a seperate room be made for OAP's where they can have a live telecast of the Divan held by Satguru.

Peeriyas, chairs etc i vehemently reject. I have been unable to contact some of the true Giani's such as Hari Singh Randava or Mahapursh Baba Jagjeet Singh who can give the relevant sakhis about the congregation maryada. My research is ongoing hence the creation of this thread and i will post further evidence i can gather making a case for the rejection of different levels of seating in the Darbar Sahib.

[Guest]

Guru Maharaj is sada daylo-nirvair nirbhou advait satpurkh i m sure elderly came to guru maharaj darbar in past, who had physical issues sitting down at the floor. I really doubt Guru maharaj would have problem with him sitting on small perri as satguru is sitting inside all of us knows each one of us intent. Yes, if that person who is sitting on perri in ahankar. Guru maharaj will break his ahankar in its own unique way and join him with Gurmat but if one is sitting on perri out of mazboori physically but mind is still at ground and is humble, there is nothing wrong with that.

One can sitting at floor still be ahankari in mind in maharaj darbar, one can be sitting on peeri due to physically issue and mind is still at the ground and humble at maharaj darbar. It comes down to each individual intentions and perceptions.

We should not make rule so rigid and black and white, have some flexibility for all by looking at their physical conditions.

[chatanga1]

there are a lot of people in our local gurdwara who cannot sit on the floor properly, and even sometimes i need to sit on a chair in langar, because of my knees. arthritus, sometimes they bloody kill, other times its tolerable. which is why i keep an open mind this. proper maryada as Bhaji Pal says is on the floor, but can people's handicaps count?

Some wheelchair bound Sikhs come into Darbar, but we cant say to them sit on the floor can we? or can we?

[Lucky]

In my opinion the best solution, aligned with Gurmat is that a seperate room be made for OAP's where they can have a live telecast of the Divan held by Satguru.

I'm not sure having a separate room would be gurmat, because in effect we would be creating the new 'untouchables' that were not allowed in the immediate vicinity of the core worship area.

The Gurdwara and langar area were put there to get rid of the segregation of untouchables.

I think the problem is when they have these chairs and seats set there at the back and sides.

In one gurdwara here they have the little peeriyas outside that the OAP or physical less abled can bring in or have someone bring it in and then sit on it. This way I find that only the very genuine needy persons make the effort to get the peeriyan inside and then take them back out when they leave.

Otherwise we have the chairs or seats placed in the back and some not so genuine lazy's make themselves a choice of whether to sit on floor or the chair - just because it is there and all can see it is there to be used !!

[chatanga1]

whether someone makes that decision, it should be up to them, it shouldnt be encouraged but not look down upon.

[Guest]

I believe chair/cushion/small stool in darbar hall at back for specially for elders who cannot sit on the floor/wheel chair ridden people is reasonable accommodation. Controversy over it its been totally blown out of proportion, putting glass or screen between them its even more ridiculous like Satguru isn't everywhere what non sense. We are making our Satguru seem like very wrathful abhramic version of God who will get offended at his devotee sitting on small chair at the back due to physical limitation. Like seriously? Have these people actually read the history? or Gurbani.

One can argue equally valid that- putting limitations on Satguru divine nature, pre-conceived notions on how Satguru feel certain way or offended in this case without look at intent of individual seems that itself is beadhi in itself.

This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. Those who want to play beadhi card consider this- when we go darbar sahib you go from top to bottom in stairs so if you want to level it out darbar sahib is actually slight lower than outside perimeter where regular joe blow is walking around. Where is our self righteous cause now? where is our beadhi panthic alert now?

Either those who oppose it are too caught up with their self righteousness mixed ego/pride to drag this issue in wolverhampton gurdwara or seriously cannot think broadly. Either way in western countries we got discrimination law so if victim disabled feels violated, demonized, vilify, ostracised segregated they have to every right to take it to the court for reasonable accommodation just like every one else including sikhs have right to take it to the court when their reasonable accommodation on religious grounds are not met.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-news/2015/04/04/wolverhampton-sikh-worshippers-in-wheelchairs-forced-to-sit-behind-screen/

It's very ironic many sikhs who feel victim and discuss how they were discriminated against in broader western spectrum are the usually same mindset ones have no problem violating someone else basic right freedom of religion-reasonable accommodation, discriminating against them.

Make no mistake this issue has nothing to do with respect of Satguru in true sense, respect is just an excuse mask their big egos hooked on conflicts, fighting for self righteous cause. Once dust is settled or once they are bored out of it, they will find another axe to grind.

Sorry for the rant, feel quite strongly about this not just because of victims here but also how they are turning our vairaat- all prevading inclusive satguru dristhi(perception) to something so petty/small, sensitive....!!!

[Guest]

Even Nanaksar who is well know for respect for Satguru granth sahib ji (those who want to know about satkar of satguru go to nanaksar as per sant kartar singh bhindranwale bachans )have small chairs, cushion stools peeriyan at the back for elderly disabled.

[DSG]

I think this is a non issue , sitting on chairs or on the floor does it matter , i think not. One can be sitting on the floor and not have respect for Guru ji , one can be sitting on a chair and having utmost respect for Guru Ji and vice versa. I think we are moving away from actually what our guru is teaching us. Focus on one innerself , generate "piare" , do seva , meditate etc... When one starts to follow the path , you will automatically do what is necessary to show your utmost respect for Guru Ji.

I sincerely believe the Sikhs are their own enemies , everyone has the right to do darshan of Guru ji regardless of their physically restrictions.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Here we have some chairs at the very back... for this reason. Some of our sangat are very elderly and can not even matha tek (they still make every effort that they can, and touch hand to floor but if they got down, they'd never get back up). I can't possibly dream of forcing them to get on the floor and not be able to sit comfortably or be able to get back up.

I think its in our own hearts. If we know inside that we can sit on the floor equal to everyone... then we should obviously. And Waheguru Ji knows. But I am not going to make a 90 year old Aunty who can barely even walk on her own, sit on the floor. What's the alternative? Like someone already mentioned? Bar them to another room to become to new 'untouchable'? Unable and unwelcome in the diwan hall anymore?

[shastarsewak]

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Edited May 17, 2015 by shastarsewak